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Message no. 1
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:09:33 -0400
Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>>Maybe we should start our own rest home.
>
>Hey, it could be like Gurth's Stairs, but only us old folks are allowed in.
> We could play shuffle board and cribbage and gum our meals!

Screw that "old man," I'll stay out here until the Ragnorok Of
Flamewars finally takes me, never wavering to the end!
B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
briefed, debriefed, or numbered "
-No. 6, The Prisoner

I am MC23
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:38:15 +0100
MgkellyMP5 said on 23:36/ 6 May 98...

> << Ah, SR1 and autosuccesses and variable staging. Hey, I bet the kiddies
> haven't ever heard of 3L1 or 5D4 damage codes, eh? Now THAT complicated
> combat.
> >>
>
> and it was a pain in the ass too! '-2 to Power Level/ +1 Wound Level and it
> makes the damage code of a Browning Max-Power with Firepower ammo....'

??? Firepower(tm) ammo only added +2 to the Power, turning 4M2 (which
sucked) to 6M2. You must be thinking of flechette, which IIRC was -1
Power, +1 Staging *checks SR1* yep.

> personally, i was very relieved when they started using 2 as the Staging
> number for everything in SR2.

It disappointed me when I looked at the damage rules in SRII... I _liked_
the variable staging, it gave weapons slightly more ways in which to be
different, and my experience is that it didn't make combat slower than in
second edition. With either you have to divide the successes by something
and then stage up or down accordingly, it's just that the number varies
instead of being a fixed 2.

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Message no. 3
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:53:34 -0700
You're only 25 and you feel old? I'm almost 20, but geeze! I'm usually
the youngest in our Shadowrun group, sometimes second youngest, but no
one minds or cares about each others age really just as long as they
want to play and have fun (it's not a very big group). I think I'll
start feeling old when I have great grand children. My grandmother
(untill she had her stroke) used to hang out with me and my (at the
time)teen aged friends and she was the life of the party! At 70
something! It's all in how you look at it. I intend to play RPGs
untill I can't remember what my real name is too.

http://www.sova.net/trish

Old is when you reach dad's age...
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Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:02:11 -0500
>
> You're only 25 and you feel old? I'm almost 20, but geeze! I'm usually
> the youngest in our Shadowrun group, sometimes second youngest, but no
> one minds or cares about each others age really just as long as they
> want to play and have fun (it's not a very big group). I think I'll
> start feeling old when I have great grand children. My grandmother
> (untill she had her stroke) used to hang out with me and my (at the
> time)teen aged friends and she was the life of the party! At 70
> something! It's all in how you look at it. I intend to play RPGs
> untill I can't remember what my real name is too.
>
Heh..well I'll be 23 in October, and come to think of it, I'm usually
the youngest in the group. (Of course that might be because 95% of
the people I hang out with are older....).
What the saying "Its not how old you are, but how you are old"
Seems to apply. Odd however, I figured more of the list was in their
early 20's, then there are. Hey Tinner, this would be another cool
fact for your Who's who page....age break down for the RN list.
Sigh...I'm at work, and just found out that I'm GMing tonight, and
get to finish Missing Blood (not a bad module if you clean it up a bit).
Ah well.....later.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.
Message no. 5
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:33:28 -0500
----------
> From: Lander Williams <lander@****.WAVE.CA>
> hmm... how DOES 5D4 work as a damage code?

Power of 5, does deadly damage, and you need 4 successes to move the
damage code down one level (like from Deadly to serious)
Message no. 6
From: Caric <caric@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:04:04 -0700
---MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;
>
> >>Maybe we should start our own rest home.
> >
> >Hey, it could be like Gurth's Stairs, but only us old folks are
allowed in.
> > We could play shuffle board and cribbage and gum our meals!
>
> Screw that "old man," I'll stay out here until the Ragnorok Of
> Flamewars finally takes me, never wavering to the end!
> B>]#

I think that MC23 was a viking berserker in a former life. :) I say
we all go senile and that way we can go on the same run over and over
and over....what was i saying?


Caric-the-*almost*-old-enough-to-join-the-home-but-thinks-there-should-be-an-acception-made-for-him-since-he's-already-lost-tongue-conrol-shaman
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Message no. 7
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:47:50 -0500
> Re: Old Age Runners (Was: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)) (Erik
Jameson , Wed 19:10)

> You know what the sad thing is? There are plenty of people on this list
> who simply have no recollection of living like that, who only know about
> the Cold War from books and school. Some of us geezers actually grew up
> with the spectre of the Red Menance and Global Thermonuclear War.

What weirds me out is that the cyberpunk genre is, AFAIK, a very direct
response to the social stresses of the cold war and popular Nihilism.
Of course, the Government isn't doing recent generations any favors, and
in fact, society may be growing more towards the inequitous situations
cyberpunk explores, but I wonder- what draws people to cyberpunk fiction
and SR today? Its not the "pop" medium it was 15 years ago, when
Terminator and Max Headroom were widely accepted popular figures.
Futristic Nihilsm doesn't seem to play as broadly anymore as it once
did. Even SR's new developments seem to reflect this.

Anybody care to comment? Are older SR players a bunch of cynical
holdouts, or is there an unnoticed wave of technosavy nihilists (Marilin
Manson fans DON'T count)?

-Mongoose (old enough to visit the "home", young enough to not want to)
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:25:55 -0400
At 10:53 AM 5/7/98 -0700, you wrote:
>You're only 25 and you feel old?

Simple answer, yes.

Long answer, yes I do. <smirk>

When I want to, I can be a regular Calvin Coolidge. I just don't often
want to.

It stems from working as a lifeguard for six years (90 to 95). I saw that
I was once one of those care-free kids in high school. Then I suddenly
realized as I approached college graduation and the summer following
graduation that I had nothing in common with these kids. Their lives were
in a totally different place than mine. I was their boss, not a coworker.
Guests would call me "sir," the rebellious guards hated me (even though I
was one of them once and had the stories to prove I was more of a rebel
than they ever could be), there was maybe a half dozen female lifeguards
that I wouldn't get in trouble for "dating" (out of nearly 100 mostly
attractive young women) and I was telling stories about the good old days
way too often. I quite simply found myself in a different world from the
"youth;" I simply don't understand the mind of a teenager anymore.

I realized that while I am relatively young, to many people I'm old. Add
in the fact that I've got bad knees and can't climb stairs without pain,
like old people, and I often feel "old."

I was playing paintball a few weekends back and it took me several days to
recover from a very intense day of play (a lot of newbies there, so I had
to play hyper-aggressive ball to show them how the game should be played).
And I go to the gym and box so I'm not in horrible shape, yet it still took
me several days to recover. That's not something some young buck has to
do. That's something a mature adult has to do. I now understand what
athletes like Michael Jordan must go through every year now.

I guess it's just strange to see that once I was a 20-yr old newbie on this
list and now I'm an "Elder Statesman," telling stories about SR1 and what
the list was like in 93-95. That while I'm not old like my grandparents,
I'm not a kid anymore. It's a very strange sensation to recognize your own
mortality and the fact that your youth is really gone forever.

Ack.

To try and drag this kicking and screaming back on-topic, how old are your
PCs? Excepting any munchy IEs and the like that is.

It's been my experience that most runner are between 18 and 25. Anyone
notably older than that (Keith, I know you have one or two there)? My own
primary PC is I think 32 years old; nearly ancient by SR standards I think.

Anyway, sorry for rambling and taking this topic so far astray from SR. I
guess I'm just getting senile in my old age... ;-)

Erik J.


Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort Activites Director

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:19:50 +1000
Gurth writes:
>It disappointed me when I looked at the damage rules in SRII... I _liked_
>the variable staging, it gave weapons slightly more ways in which to be
>different, and my experience is that it didn't make combat slower than in
>second edition. With either you have to divide the successes by something
>and then stage up or down accordingly, it's just that the number varies
.instead of being a fixed 2.

I wasn't too upset with the demise of variable staging for weapons, when I
noticed that armour didn't give automatic successes anymore. I think the
tradeoff was fairly decent, and I remember a quote from this list from when
SR2 came out: "We played our first game of SR2 last night, and I discovered
that Trolls aren't bulletproof anymore!"

What disappointed me was the demise of variable staging for _spells_, and
spell drain. Sure, it made the design more complex, but the munchkin trick
of casting high drain spells at low force, and throwing away the drain just
wasn't possible. If you slung major mojo around in SR1, you were going to
take drain... it wasn't uncommon for drain to need 3 or 4 successes per
level, so if you throw a big spell around, you'd be assured based on the
number of available dice that you'll take at least a light or even a
moderate drain. Now, you can toss Force 4 with Deadly drain spells around
all day, nearly. (Willpower 6, keep 3 dice back from the spell casting test
to resist drain).

This is one area of SR2 that needs serious overhaul in SR3, IMHO.

--
sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 10
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 04:42:58 +0200
>What disappointed me was the demise of variable staging for _spells_, and
>spell drain. Sure, it made the design more complex, but the munchkin trick
>of casting high drain spells at low force, and throwing away the drain just
>wasn't possible. If you slung major mojo around in SR1, you were going to
>take drain... it wasn't uncommon for drain to need 3 or 4 successes per
>level, so if you throw a big spell around, you'd be assured based on the
>number of available dice that you'll take at least a light or even a
>moderate drain. Now, you can toss Force 4 with Deadly drain spells around
>all day, nearly. (Willpower 6, keep 3 dice back from the spell casting test
>to resist drain).

I think they wanted the same system for everything... Not a bad idea.
It also was possible to do some rule bending in SR1. If I remember well,
stun spell had very low drains which made them quite easy to launch. The
big spells are always very difficult to launch...
And finally, they lost staging they added modifiers to the power so you
didn't lose any variation between spells.
Staging for spell effects made them quite impossible to resist... With a
staging of 1 (and most of the spell used by PCs had such a staging), it was
a ultimate weapon !
Generaly, SR1 was very unbalanced and somewhat usually unrealistic...

>This is one area of SR2 that needs serious overhaul in SR3, IMHO.

I never had any problem with it. When I look at my players, I can see them
suffer from drain. And a light wound is always a big problem in SR (perhaps
too much).
You can calculate drains with force instead of force/2.

- Cobra.
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:51:45 EDT
In a message dated 5/7/98 6:53:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> To try and drag this kicking and screaming back on-topic, how old are your
> PCs? Excepting any munchy IEs and the like that is.

Hey now, watch that munching...someone's gonna get hurt... :P

> It's been my experience that most runner are between 18 and 25. Anyone
> notably older than that (Keith, I know you have one or two there)? My own
> primary PC is I think 32 years old; nearly ancient by SR standards I think.

Binder is ... old ... he doesn't really know his true age anymore. But he's
not immortal, he just lived with a twisted curse for a while. For those who
understand this term, he's something of a "Slider", and isn't even sure where
"Home" really is anymore either. Erik, why do you think he studied Metamagic
so heavily when we did that "bit convo" in the bar? He is looking still ...

Prophet (for those of TK that remember him ;) is a kid, who looks older than
he is (actually 16, but thanks to genetics, he's mid 20's physically).

Shivowtnoeh. Good ol' Shivy. My first SR character. The Siberian Shaper
Tiger Hermetic Magician. Yes, for those lucky TK people, the -BIG CAT- was
me, he just never spoke up. In the original game timeline, he died of "old
age" at about 48 or so. He was started at age 39. He was the one true "Force
of Nature" I ever allowed myself to go animate with in a game. Sometimes I
wish I could -really- play him again. (oh the the one true longing for First
Edition that I have)

> Anyway, sorry for rambling and taking this topic so far astray from SR. I
> guess I'm just getting senile in my old age... ;-)

This little ol' post, a rambling??? Nah, that other one I put out...that's a
rambling.. :)

-K
Message no. 12
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:12:23 -0500
Erik said on 5/7/98:
>To try and drag this kicking and screaming back on-topic, how old are
>your
>PCs? Excepting any munchy IEs and the like that is.
>
>It's been my experience that most runner are between 18 and 25.
>Anyone
>notably older than that (Keith, I know you have one or two there)? My
>own
>primary PC is I think 32 years old; nearly ancient by SR standards I
>think.

Hmm..barely remember, plus...outta 3 Players(2 don't have chars done,
after almost *5* MONTHS! ARRGGHHH), well...one's done his char...29.
Former UCAS Marine 1st Lt., to explain his age.

John

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Message no. 13
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 05:07:11 -0400
Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>To try and drag this kicking and screaming back on-topic, how old are your
>PCs? Excepting any munchy IEs and the like that is.

Cavalier (sam)- was in his later 30's when he died
Waif (burnt out sorcerer) - born Dec 24, 2011 - young to mid 40's in game
8 Ball (precompanion ogre sam) - mid 20's
Detox (ally cat shaman GMPC) - started in young teens, now in late teens
MC23 (Mage GMPC, duh) - now in mid 60's

I used the term GMPC instead of NPC because I have a different attachment
to them. I guess they can be described as characters I would love to have
as PC's but can't for whatever reasons.

Other characters I've had are often standard age (20ish, some young
30's) but I haven't played enough to really worth mentioning.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23
Message no. 14
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:43:03 -0400
>>To try and drag this kicking and screaming back on-topic, how old are your
>>PCs? Excepting any munchy IEs and the like that is.

Hrm...

Bull is... 28? SOmething like that... I need to dig out my character
notes and background to find out his date of birth :] But that may not be
totally accurate either, unfortunately. For a while we were equaling 2
Game years for every real year (Though the dates never really changed...
Go figure :))

Chaos is 27 now, I think.
Mac is 23

Other than that, it's random and really depends on their background and such.

Here's a thought... When I was younger (MUCH younger :)) aqnd just
starting out, I made all my characters 16-18 years old because that seemed
so much older. Then I started making my charcaters the same age as I was
as I got a little older... Now they've started to get younger...

Wierd, eh? <grin>

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 15
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Old Age Runners
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:03:18 +1000
> Here's a thought... When I was younger (MUCH younger :)) aqnd just
> starting out, I made all my characters 16-18 years old because that seemed
> so much older. Then I started making my charcaters the same age as I was
> as I got a little older... Now they've started to get younger...

Not really that weird... when one`s younger, you -want- to be old
(basically so no-one could boss you around any more - oh, if only they
knew nothing really changes...), whereas as you get older, being young
again has its definite attractions ;)

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |

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