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Message no. 1
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: On Barriers
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:20:54 +0100
Ingmar wrote:
> Why is magic such a powerhorse ?? The mage in my group casted a physical
> barriere force 8 ! The konguy harassing him fired ONE (!) burst from an AK 97
> and knocked the mage down with a serious wound (with body 3) !
> (Sure, if he had a force 9 barriere the first burst would have bounced off
> but the second sure wouldn't !!!)

I don't think this is correct. First, barrier rating against firearms weapons
is doubled. Second, the base power level of the weapon is used for the
comparison with the wall and third you have to have MORE than the barrier
to crack it. Equal would only reduce the barrier rating by one.

So, in you example you compare a barrier 8 = 16 with a AK97, powerlevel of
8 (? I'm not sure). Now, I'm not sure (again) if you have to have a power
level of halve the barrier rating to reduce the barrier rating by one or
if you have to have more than have the barrier rating, but there is no way
that you can hit a mage through a force 8 barrier and give him a serious
wound.
bye,
Stefan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but there's nothing like having your friends show up with lots of guns.
-Frank Miller, The Big Fat Kill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: On Barriers
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:27:14 +0100
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Stefan Struck wrote:

>
> I don't think this is correct. First, barrier rating against firearms weapons
> is doubled. Second, the base power level of the weapon is used for the
> comparison with the wall and third you have to have MORE than the barrier
> to crack it. Equal would only reduce the barrier rating by one.
>
> So, in you example you compare a barrier 8 = 16 with a AK97, powerlevel of
> 8 (? I'm not sure). Now, I'm not sure (again) if you have to have a power
> level of halve the barrier rating to reduce the barrier rating by one or
> if you have to have more than have the barrier rating, but there is no way
> that you can hit a mage through a force 8 barrier and give him a serious
> wound.

Against firearms the Barrier rating is only doubled to see how much
damage is done to the barrier itself 'Bullets, although powerful, really
do make only small holes'. For determining the armour rating gained just
use the basic rating (unless using APDS or Explosive ammo which react
differently). Mind you, see my previous comment about magical barriers
being reduced in rating and having holes in them.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 3
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: On Barriers
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 16:01:03 +0100
On Tue, 10 Oct 95, SDtefan wrote :

> > Why is magic such a powerhorse ?? The mage in my group casted a physical
> > barriere force 8 ! The konguy harassing him fired ONE (!) burst from an AK 97
> > and knocked the mage down with a serious wound (with body 3) !
> > (Sure, if he had a force 9 barriere the first burst would have bounced off
> > but the second sure wouldn't !!!)
>
> I don't think this is correct. First, barrier rating against firearms weapons
> is doubled. Second, the base power level of the weapon is used for the
> comparison with the wall and third you have to have MORE than the barrier
> to crack it. Equal would only reduce the barrier rating by one.
>
> So, in you example you compare a barrier 8 = 16 with a AK97, powerlevel of
> 8 (? I'm not sure). Now, I'm not sure (again) if you have to have a power
> level of halve the barrier rating to reduce the barrier rating by one or
> if you have to have more than have the barrier rating, but there is no way
> that you can hit a mage through a force 8 barrier and give him a serious
> wound.
> bye,
> Stefan

NOT true !

An example by vanilla rules :
------------------------------

mage : con-goon :
body 2 | firearms 6
fightingpool(? whats the english word :) 5 | threat 3/3
substained spell barrier 8 |
~ ~ inc init +3 |

The mage is a sitting duck at the bottom of a staircase. The con guys
notices the runner an open fire (secured area :)) .
One con-goon fires a AK97 burst at the mage :
attacker : -1# (target stands still)
+1# (due to barrier spell)
-2# (smartgun)
base #4 (12 m distance) => # of 2 !
unmodified power of weapon (8) equals unmodified barrier rating
(8) -> able to penetrate barrier !
rolls 6+3=9 dice vs #2 and scores 8 successes
target : basedamage 11S
modified barrier rating of 16 kicks power downto 2S
rolls 2+5=7 dice vs #2 and scores 6 successes, rerolls 2 dice via
karmapool and scores an additional success = 7 successes

8-7=1 net success for attacker inflicts an serious wound on target (the
mage) !

Regarding the barrier : rating is reduced by one ( power 11 is greater than
half modified barrier rating of 16)

This is what happens according to vanilla rules !

If you however applie the following houserule :


HOUSE 2 :
---------
If armor kicks the powerlevel of an attack below 2, then the defender rolls
against a targetn. of 2 and has a number of automatic successes(yep) equal
to the difference from the modified power up to 2 !
Example: A fichetti hits (not really) Hawk, a street samurai, with a
partial suit+bonelacingIII. In the following opposed success test Hawk
starts with 3 (power of 6 - armor of 7 = -1 up to two are 3) succeses in
advance ! (or extra dice to resitst .... what do you think ????)

then the mage gets 7 extra succeses -> 7+7 and the shot won't
scatch him !

SO AGAIN, why is magic such a powerhorse ? :) (just vanilla rule ;)

Salve


Ingmar


--


*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************
Message no. 4
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: On Barriers
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:08:41 +0100
I don't wish to sound obnoxious or a rules lawyer, but I thought I might
just point out a few 'errors' in your example. The only reason I bother
is that you were trying to prove a point by using the exact rules per the
book.


On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Ingmar Krusch wrote:

>
> An example by vanilla rules :
> ------------------------------
>
> mage : con-goon :
> body 2 | firearms 6
> fightingpool(? whats the english word :) 5 | threat 3/3
> substained spell barrier 8 |
> ~ ~ inc init +3 |
>
> The mage is a sitting duck at the bottom of a staircase. The con guys
> notices the runner an open fire (secured area :)) .
> One con-goon fires a AK97 burst at the mage :
> attacker : -1# (target stands still)
> +1# (due to barrier spell)
> -2# (smartgun)
> base #4 (12 m distance) => # of 2 !
> unmodified power of weapon (8) equals unmodified barrier rating
> (8) -> able to penetrate barrier !
I always thought the power of the weapon had to EXCEED not just equal the
barrier's rating, therefore the Mage would be perfectly safe (from the
first burst anyway -see the barrier rating reduction below).

> rolls 6+3=9 dice vs #2 and scores 8 successes
> target : basedamage 11S
> modified barrier rating of 16 kicks power downto 2S
The Barrier rating is NOT doubled when firing THROUGH. The effective
armour protection the mage would get would be 8, not 16 (its all academic
however as the burst wouldn't have penetrated anyway :)

> rolls 2+5=7 dice vs #2 and scores 6 successes, rerolls 2 dice via
^^^^^^^
Only FAILURES can be rerolled, and since, of the 7 dice, only 1 failed
only 1 dice could be *rerolled*. However you may have meant an extra 2
dice were bought by spending 2 karma pool points, and these were rolled
in addition to the 7 dice, in which case they aren't 'rerolls' as such;
and I believe extra dice should be purchased *before* the main lot of
dice are rolled.

> karmapool and scores an additional success = 7 successes >
> 8-7=1 net success for attacker inflicts an serious wound on target (the
> mage) !
>
> Regarding the barrier : rating is reduced by one ( power 11 is greater than
> half modified barrier rating of 16)
This is where the Barrier rating IS doubled to 16 and so here your
calculations are perfectly correct :)

> This is what happens according to vanilla rules !
>
Almost :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 5
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: On Barriers
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 01:30:05 +0100
On Fri, 13 Oct 95 The digital Mage wrote :

>
> I don't wish to sound obnoxious or a rules lawyer, but I thought I might
> just point out a few 'errors' in your example. The only reason I bother
> is that you were trying to prove a point by using the exact rules per the
> book.

You don't !

>
<snip>
>
> > unmodified power of weapon (8) equals unmodified barrier rating
> > (8) -> able to penetrate barrier !
> I always thought the power of the weapon had to EXCEED not just equal the
> barrier's rating, therefore the Mage would be perfectly safe (from the
> first burst anyway -see the barrier rating reduction below).

Well, as I already said, I use the german rulebook 2nd ed. (grbII) and it
states that if the RATING OF THE BARRIER exceeds the base power of the
weapon, the bullets bounces off !! (don't know the american edition ?)

>
>
> > target : basedamage 11S
> > modified barrier rating of 16 kicks power downto 2S
> The Barrier rating is NOT doubled when firing THROUGH. The effective
> armour protection the mage would get would be 8, not 16 (its all academic
> however as the burst wouldn't have penetrated anyway :)

YES YES YES. TRUE TRUE TRUE.
My fault !
Even though the grbII states that u use the modified rating of the barrier,
I'm sure (not really :) it referrs to wether it's an ordinary or security
door (in witch case you actually double the rating when firing through !)

>
>
> > rolls 2+5=7 dice vs #2 and scores 6 successes, rerolls 2 dice via
> ^^^^^^^
> Only FAILURES can be rerolled, and since, of the 7 dice, only 1 failed
> only 1 dice could be *rerolled*. However you may have meant an extra 2
>

AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN. T T T.
This is a simple false bounding of variables ;) ! As stated in my first
answer, the mage has a body of 3 thus 3+5=8 dice -> scores 6 ->rerolls the
2 (!:) failed dice etc. !!!!

<snip>
>
> This is where the Barrier rating IS doubled to 16 and so here your
> calculations are perfectly correct :)

THNX. At last it's not all bullsh* :) . Mayby I shouldn't write about
this stuff that late (around 2 am - hey I'm a student, I don't care) ????
And, what do you think about the house rule I posted (haven't tried her
out yet) ????

OFF TOPIC (sorry) :
Does anyone know why DOOM ][ & HERRETIC hangs up so often during modem play
(usually within 12-40 minutes on a 28800 baud connetction, innercity around
11 pm, different modem types, not ISDN, DX2-66 + P5-100) while descent doesn't
for more than 2 1/2 hrs :)) continued playing( same ,even with 2 DX2-66) ???


SALVE

Ingmar
--


*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************
Message no. 6
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: On Barriers
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:38:54 +0100
On Sat, 14 Oct 1995, Ingmar Krusch wrote:

> > I always thought the power of the weapon had to EXCEED not just equal the
> > barrier's rating, therefore the Mage would be perfectly safe (from the
> > first burst anyway -see the barrier rating reduction below).
>
> Well, as I already said, I use the german rulebook 2nd ed. (grbII) and it
> states that if the RATING OF THE BARRIER exceeds the base power of the
> weapon, the bullets bounces off !! (don't know the american edition ?)
>
Actually I checked this out and in the section near blast against
barriers it does actually say the rating of the barrier must *exceed* the
power for teh round not to penetrate. However I also looked up teh bit
about vehicle armour and it said something to the effect of:
'Vehicle armour is like a Barrier, in that if the power of the weapon
does not *exceed* the rating, it does not penetrate.'

So I guess we're both right!!!!!! :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 7
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: On Barriers
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:35:09 +0100
On sun, 15 Oct 1995 The Digital Mage wrote :

<snip>

> Actually I checked this out and in the section near blast against
> barriers it does actually say the rating of the barrier must *exceed* the
> power for teh round not to penetrate. However I also looked up teh bit
> about vehicle armour and it said something to the effect of:
> 'Vehicle armour is like a Barrier, in that if the power of the weapon
> does not *exceed* the rating, it does not penetrate.'
>
> So I guess we're both right!!!!!! :)
>
Agreed. So there are to contadictionary rules !
Maybe the folks from FASA should think about yet an other ERRATA
just to clear those things up :) ?

In order to level down magic, I prefere the first one (.. if rating of
barrier exceeds unmodified power of weapon, it does not penetrate ;).


Salve

Ingmar
--


*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************

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