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Message no. 1
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:51:15 -0500
At 04:02 PM 7/15/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Mon goose wrote:
>
>> I'd think your strength granted recoil comp would be halved (round
>> up for good hand, down for off hand). When firing two weapons, this is
>> covered (all recoil aplies), but One-handed SMG fire shouldn't get full
>> strength recoil- if you multiply by 2 after mods, you'll likely have
>> 2x0.
>>
>
>doubt that shadowrunners with "normal" strength could use one one-handed
>at all...

How does one fire a cybergun shotgun? I would imagine you just point
(one-handed) and shoot, but previous discussion leads me to believe you
might want grab hold of that wrist to retain control.

There's an interesting pistol/shotgun combo that dates back to the Civil
War era - the Le Mat revolver. It was a 9 shot .44 revolver with a central
single shot barrel shotgun (that I believe was approx.a 16g).

Hg
....an analog person, stuck, in a digital world
Message no. 2
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:30:01 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-16 20:53:23 EDT, you write:

> How does one fire a cybergun shotgun? I would imagine you just point
> (one-handed) and shoot, but previous discussion leads me to believe you
> might want grab hold of that wrist to retain control.

Speaking as someone who has a knack for doing stupid shit (I mean A LOT of
stupid shit. Like trying to fire a 12-gauge one-handed, just to see if I
could) you WOULD want to grab onto that wrist, not necessarily to retain
control, but to keep the recoil from breaking it.
Unless it's a cyberlimb. Or an implanted cybergun. If it's integral, you
probably wouldn'tt have to worry about the recoil transferring all that
kinetic energy into the small bones in your wrist.

Mgkelly
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:28:42 +0100
Machine-gun Kelly said on 23:30/16 Jul 98,...

> Speaking as someone who has a knack for doing stupid shit (I mean A LOT of
> stupid shit. Like trying to fire a 12-gauge one-handed, just to see if I
> could) you WOULD want to grab onto that wrist, not necessarily to retain
> control, but to keep the recoil from breaking it.
> Unless it's a cyberlimb. Or an implanted cybergun. If it's integral, you
> probably wouldn'tt have to worry about the recoil transferring all that
> kinetic energy into the small bones in your wrist.

Cyberguns are always implanted, unless of course you have a
cyberlimb, in which case they're built-in (not much of a
difference, really). I don't think your wrist would suffer much
from recoil, though -- the gun is in your forearm, not in your
hand, so it'll be mainly the elbow joint that must absorb the recoil.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:33:08 -0400
> > Speaking as someone who has a knack for doing stupid shit (I mean A
> LOT of
> > stupid shit. Like trying to fire a 12-gauge one-handed, just to see
> if I
> > could) you WOULD want to grab onto that wrist, not necessarily to
> retain
> > control, but to keep the recoil from breaking it.
> > Unless it's a cyberlimb. Or an implanted cybergun. If it's integral,
> you
> > probably wouldn'tt have to worry about the recoil transferring all
> that
> > kinetic energy into the small bones in your wrist.
>
> Cyberguns are always implanted, unless of course you have a
> cyberlimb, in which case they're built-in (not much of a
> difference, really). I don't think your wrist would suffer much
> from recoil, though -- the gun is in your forearm, not in your
> hand, so it'll be mainly the elbow joint that must absorb the recoil.
>
Maybe its an oversight on my part, but I thought you HAD
to have a cyberarm to get a cybergun at all.
Message no. 5
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:57:02 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-17 08:35:21 EDT, you write:

> Maybe its an oversight on my part, but I thought you HAD
> to have a cyberarm to get a cybergun at all.

IIRC, you can have a Cybergun installed in a meat arm, but it will cost
Essence. There's no Essence loss for installing a Cybergun in a Cyberarm.

Mgkelly
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:14:00 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 8:33/17 Jul 98,...

> Maybe its an oversight on my part, but I thought you HAD
> to have a cyberarm to get a cybergun at all.

That's to be expected, there has been quite some confusion over
this...

In the original Street Samurai Catalog (I don't know about the
2nd edition version), cyberguns did not have an Essence cot
listed in their stats on page 86, but the cyberware tables on page
112 did show an Essence cost. From that, many people decided
they can be installed in a natural arm -- after all, why would it
cost Essence to build them into a cyberarm?

OTOH, the text on page 86 says they were designed for
installation in a cyberarm; the illustration, though, appears to
show the gun in a real arm.

Then SRII states in the Sourcebook Updates section that
cyberguns cost no Essence anymore.

Finally, Cybertechnology comes along and on page 52 gives
Essence costs for them when mounted in a natural arm, but
doesn't list those costs in its cyberware tables in the back of the
book...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:17:48 +0000
Gurth wrote:
<snip>
> -- after all, why would it
> cost Essence to build them into a cyberarm?

I interpreted that Essence must be spend if there is a connection to the
brain. Though I am not sure for an exact rule I'd say that the more the brain
has to control the cyber device (like a leg or enhanced reflexes) the more
essence it costs. This seems to work good for my concept until I get to the
bone replacements...

But IMO it works better than 'essence for kilograms'!

Sandman
Message no. 8
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:37:15 -0400
> > Maybe its an oversight on my part, but I thought you
> HAD
> > to have a cyberarm to get a cybergun at all.
>
> That's to be expected, there has been quite some confusion over
> this...
>
> In the original Street Samurai Catalog (I don't know about the
> 2nd edition version), cyberguns did not have an Essence cot
> listed in their stats on page 86, but the cyberware tables on page
> 112 did show an Essence cost. From that, many people decided
> they can be installed in a natural arm -- after all, why would it
> cost Essence to build them into a cyberarm?
>
> OTOH, the text on page 86 says they were designed for
> installation in a cyberarm; the illustration, though, appears to
> show the gun in a real arm.
>
> Then SRII states in the Sourcebook Updates section that
> cyberguns cost no Essence anymore.
>
> Finally, Cybertechnology comes along and on page 52 gives
> Essence costs for them when mounted in a natural arm, but
> doesn't list those costs in its cyberware tables in the back of the
> book...
>
To be honest, I didn't notice (or maybe I just forgot)
all that stuff. It just never occurred to me to try to mount a cybergun
in a natural limb. I assumed the drawing in SC(1) was just a drawing of
a cyberarm (since the natural human body works pretty damn well I have
always thought most cyberware would mimic it as much as possible while
still achieving the goal of the cyber).
Seems like most weapons, particularly shotguns would do
a good bit of damage to a meat arm. Maybe it's just me....
Message no. 9
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:28:23 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:17 PM 7/20/98 +0000, Sandman wrote:
>Gurth wrote:
><snip>
>> -- after all, why would it
>> cost Essence to build them into a cyberarm?
>
>I interpreted that Essence must be spend if there is a connection to
the
>brain. Though I am not sure for an exact rule I'd say that the more
the brain
>has to control the cyber device (like a leg or enhanced reflexes) the
more
>essence it costs. This seems to work good for my concept until I get
to the
>bone replacements...

Nice theory, but why does a cyber shotgun cost so much more essence
than a cyber hold-out?
Even if you allow the things to have a cybernetically controled choke,
which would require just a little more brain control, that still
doesn't explain why the cyber light pistol costs more than the cyber
hold-out. Or why the cyber smg costs more than the cyber machine
pistol and the cyber heavy pistol (which wouldn't need that extra
little switch for changing firing modes) costs more than either the
smg or the mp.

I stand by my opinion that when FASA wrote the SSC, nine years ago,
their original intention was for cyberguns to be implanted only into
cyberlimbs. This is why there were no essence costs listed on the
description text. The essence costs on the chart in the back of the
book are either an afterthought, or an outright mistake by the writer
who compiled the chart. Since then, FASA has realized that gamers were
putting these things in meat arms, and caved in to popular demand,
resulting in the current cybergun rules listed in Cybertechnology.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 10
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:28:53 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:37 AM 7/20/98 -0400, Bryan wrote:
> To be honest, I didn't notice (or maybe I just
forgot)
>all that stuff. It just never occurred to me to try to mount a
cybergun
>in a natural limb. I assumed the drawing in SC(1) was just a drawing
of
>a cyberarm (since the natural human body works pretty damn well I
have
>always thought most cyberware would mimic it as much as possible
while
>still achieving the goal of the cyber).

IMHO, it just looks too much like a meat arm to me, the bones in the
drawing just don't look like they were manufactured.

> Seems like most weapons, particularly shotguns would
do
>a good bit of damage to a meat arm. Maybe it's just me....

If your view of cyberarms has them mimicing meat arms that closely,
I'd imagine that cyberguns would do quite a bit of damage to them too.

And anyway, implanting a cyber shotgun into a meat arm costs _more_
essence than replacing the arm with a cyberarm, and a cyber heavy
pistol costs just as much. I figure that most of that is highly
engineered mounting points and stress reductions to keep the recoil
from tearing the arm apart.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 11
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:43:47 -0400
> At 11:37 AM 7/20/98 -0400, Bryan wrote:
> > To be honest, I didn't notice (or maybe I just
> forgot)
> >all that stuff. It just never occurred to me to try to mount a
> cybergun
> >in a natural limb. I assumed the drawing in SC(1) was just a drawing
> of
> >a cyberarm (since the natural human body works pretty damn well I
> have
> >always thought most cyberware would mimic it as much as possible
> while
> >still achieving the goal of the cyber).
>
> IMHO, it just looks too much like a meat arm to me, the bones in the
> drawing just don't look like they were manufactured.
>
I am thinking of cyberarms in a more refined manner I
suppose. Steel bones with wiring running along the normal nerve paths
(maybe a cap for that damn funny-bone spot) all covered with a steel
wire mesh and then fake skin (optional).

> > Seems like most weapons, particularly shotguns would
> do
> >a good bit of damage to a meat arm. Maybe it's just me....
>
> If your view of cyberarms has them mimicing meat arms that closely,
> I'd imagine that cyberguns would do quite a bit of damage to them too.
>
Not necessarily. Surgical steel bones hold much more
stress than calcium ones.

> And anyway, implanting a cyber shotgun into a meat arm costs _more_
> essence than replacing the arm with a cyberarm, and a cyber heavy
> pistol costs just as much. I figure that most of that is highly
> engineered mounting points and stress reductions to keep the recoil
> from tearing the arm apart.
>
Sounds good to me...

This was basically just my take on it. I don't have a
big enough stake in this to start a flame war.
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: One handed shotguns (was Re: saw off a shotgun)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:11:15 +0100
Ulrich Haupt said on 13:17/20 Jul 98,...

> I interpreted that Essence must be spend if there is a connection to the
> brain. Though I am not sure for an exact rule I'd say that the more the brain
> has to control the cyber device (like a leg or enhanced reflexes) the more
> essence it costs. This seems to work good for my concept until I get to the
> bone replacements...

The trouble with this theory is that all guns would require about
the same amount of "brain control," but a light pistol cybergun is
a lot more Essence-friendly than a shotgun.

> But IMO it works better than 'essence for kilograms'!

I tend to base it on how large the cyberware is -- a fingertip
compartment is much smaller than level 3 dermal plating, so it
costs much less Essence.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sarcasm -- it's a great way to deal.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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