Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Online Community Leaders (part 2)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 04:49:25 -0500
Why did they take command?

Simple. They had the resources, the knowledge and the personal drive to do
so. At the same time, they had to butt heads with any/all "contenders" for
the situation and/or positions (as much as they could be considered such
anyway).

In a way, its kind of like what Augustus' own reply to my initial post was.

There are those people that simply don't want to lead. There are those
people that have some inspiration, but they may in fact be lacking
resources. There are those people who have resources, but no motivation to
do anything with it. And there are others yet.

"Old Timers", "Veterans" and other names are best left, in all
honesty, to
people with advanced comprehension of Social Metadynamics in a Voluntary
Environment.

Yep, Voluntary.

NightLife... I'm going to single you out because I think its time someone
did so. I've been singled out... countless times, and I'm going to be
singled out again. I think its' your turn to be blazed through with a
pulsar cannon or three.

You made the claim of a statement that I made was "Elitist". No, in truth I
am damn near anything but fraggin' elitist. I've done as much as I damn
well can to get as many people involved in the internet as I am able to. I
do have a passion for Shadowrun. How the hell could I hide it? I've got a
500 page website devoted to it and we actually plan on expanding it (its
actually 913 pages, but we're reorganizing it to be smaller and more
manageable... before multi-lingual support). I did what I could to not only
give lots of alternative options to the game universe that is lacking
material (what game based upon a reality can in fact be equal to the reality
itself without becoming one?), but I did it in a way that publicly available
and *relatively* followable.

I am anything but fraggin' elitist because I make myself available to anyone
and everyone. I have had people call me at all sorts of hours from more
nations on this globe to talk "GAME STUFF" than anyone that I know. I've
made more friends through this medium than I can count.

What you are NL is a Seperatist. You want to make something stand out,
seperate and reorganize based upon a singular viewpoint of opinions that
although shared by other individuals are not in any manner truly called for.
You believe that a publicly available forum such as this one or the more
than what... 30,000 other ones dedicated to Shadowrun... should be
reorganized at some level.

You believe that the Community "Leaders" are elitist because they have made
"elitist remarks" or because "FASA is buttering their muffins" (gods,
the
images this brings to me...). No, the elitist is you. The seperatist is
you. You are singling instances out that should not be singled out.

Do I believe that Adam is an elitist? (for example) In many ways, yes.
I've even been privileged to hear statements from his mouth directly that
would lead me to think it directly. So what?!? I've heard worse statements
about people of an elitist mentality from *YOU* from *YOUR MOUTH* (long
durations in lines at Gencon have significant impact upon memories of people
like myself).

Elitist??? Hmm... yeah, I can see where I'm an elitist even. Because of my
desire to expand my viewpoint of a game... a FRAGGIN GAME... I've become
known in 5 continents as a person who is passionate about his gaming... who
will go to great lengths to get more people involved in not only the
gaming.. but the playtesting of the game as well (I'm currently trying to
get three new people that aren't even in Indiana included for example). I
don't want to set myself apart from the Online Community I am a member of.
I am trying to expand that community and the roles of those that are already
a part of it.

Do me a favor next time NL... remember the term elitist should we ever be at
Gencon again and you hear of me trying to organize a get together at a major
restaurant of people that I know... even if they don't know one another.

Adam is right... don't listen to people like me and think "ShadowRN". Oh
please, listen to statements from people like yourself who are upset with
the "way things are" to such an extent, that they think the admins should be
reworked. Listen to people who make those statements and then say things
like... "its not you Adam... ". Geesh... Adam is the guy we hear most from
these days because he's the only one probably able to make any kind of real
time available.

Your statements are elitist... I'm sorry, they aren't seperatist. I'm
reading Adam's latest reply to your remarks now and I'm left to wonder...
"WHAT THE HELL???" Adam may be stubbon, but he has earned the right to be
as have every other member of *ANY* of the online communities for that
matter... be it Bulldrek, TTF, FASA-Boards, GIX, AOL, House Talk, RPG ONLINE
etc....ad nauseum. Those people... *THESE PEOPLE* have made themselves and
their work available to the Online... yeah verily I can even say this with
pride... the GLOBAL community. That is more than you have done. The people
who come to any of these communities with questions are doing so because
they've heard somewhere, somehow, about them and also want to be a part of
things for whatever reason (and any member of Bulldrek knows what that can
mean ;-).

And yeah... there's more...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
THREEH.COM (www.threeh.com)
Message no. 2
From: NightLife NightLife@********.com
Subject: Online Community Leaders (part 2)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 03:34:04 -0500
>NightLife... I'm going to single you out because I think its time someone
>did so. I've been singled out... countless times, and I'm going to be
>singled out again. I think its' your turn to be blazed through with a
>pulsar cannon or three.

Knock yourself out.

>You made the claim of a statement that I made was "Elitist". No, in truth I
>am damn near anything but fraggin' elitist. I've done as much as I damn
>well can to get as many people involved in the internet as I am able to. I
>do have a passion for Shadowrun. How the hell could I hide it? I've got a
>500 page website devoted to it and we actually plan on expanding it (its
>actually 913 pages, but we're reorganizing it to be smaller and more
>manageable... before multi-lingual support). I did what I could to not only
>give lots of alternative options to the game universe that is lacking
>material (what game based upon a reality can in fact be equal to the reality
>itself without becoming one?), but I did it in a way that publicly available
>and *relatively* followable.
>
>I am anything but fraggin' elitist because I make myself available to anyone
>and everyone. I have had people call me at all sorts of hours from more
>nations on this globe to talk "GAME STUFF" than anyone that I know. I've
>made more friends through this medium than I can count.

This whole two post as long as they are prove my point you're going out of
your way because I dared to make a comment against your team. I've dared to
make flippant remarks about something. I don't think a 500 plus page web
site entitles anybody special treatment.

>What you are NL is a Seperatist. You want to make something stand out,
>seperate and reorganize based upon a singular viewpoint of opinions that
>although shared by other individuals are not in any manner truly called for.
>You believe that a publicly available forum such as this one or the more
>than what... 30,000 other ones dedicated to Shadowrun... should be
>reorganized at some level.

I believe when something become corrupt it needs to be torn down. I am not
the only person with this view I however am not afraid to sit there and say
who up decided you were god today. In fact this whole rambling started
because of one tiny statement in this whole discussion. " You have us to
turn to". Nobody has that right to simply come across and say you'd don't
need that I have something better. The has never been any kind of
nomination system or a system of check and balances to redress wrongs. It
exactly like working for a union owned by the company it works for. It's
better than nothing but not as good as an independent.

>You believe that the Community "Leaders" are elitist because they have made
>"elitist remarks" or because "FASA is buttering their muffins"
(gods, the
>images this brings to me...). No, the elitist is you. The seperatist is
>you. You are singling instances out that should not be singled out.

What because I don't want to go with the majority. When anybody is in a
position of power they need to remember that everything they say, do or
imply is under scrutiny.

>Do I believe that Adam is an elitist? (for example) In many ways, yes.
>I've even been privileged to hear statements from his mouth directly that
>would lead me to think it directly. So what?!? I've heard worse statements
>about people of an elitist mentality from *YOU* from *YOUR MOUTH* (long
>durations in lines at Gencon have significant impact upon memories of people
>like myself).

So I'm an arrogant SOB, doesn't change anything about my point. In fact
I'll go one further. The second I sent off that message I expected a few
things. One to be banned, hasn't happen yet we'll see. Two a slew of hate
mail because the opionion I had was contrary to policy. It wasn't popular
and it rocked the boat which may found comfortable. I've gotten part of the
second it's still early. Three was something like there's no elitiest
tendencies here. I've gotten that. But I didn't expect somebody too digg as
far back into the past graspiing for something. I'd also like to see Tom
Dowd back I think I said that. I vaguely remember something about not
likeling the way things were heading. However my "elitism" stem from
watching something grow and change. Politics change as do people and what
is good one day may be bad policy the next. So right now is what I'm
talking about not who said what to who in a line. It's irrevelant to this
point at hand. The only elitist tendency I have is to identify the person
getting stopmed on and step in for him/her.

>Elitist??? Hmm... yeah, I can see where I'm an elitist even. Because of my
>desire to expand my viewpoint of a game... a FRAGGIN GAME... I've become
>known in 5 continents as a person who is passionate about his gaming... who
>will go to great lengths to get more people involved in not only the
>gaming.. but the playtesting of the game as well (I'm currently trying to
>get three new people that aren't even in Indiana included for example). I
>don't want to set myself apart from the Online Community I am a member of.
>I am trying to expand that community and the roles of those that are already
>a part of it.

Good for you! You have every right to be proud of your accomplishments.
That however don't make your statement any more important than johnny gamer
who goes and buy his books expecting one thing and getting another. I
expect a retort then don't spend the cash. However when trying to keep with
a ever changing product and having a slid knowledge base requires one to
purchase those books whether good or schlock.

>Do me a favor next time NL... remember the term elitist should we ever be at
>Gencon again and you hear of me trying to organize a get together at a major
>restaurant of people that I know... even if they don't know one another.

Should I quake in my boots now. This I'm not sure how to take it's either a
warning of persona non grata or a stab at me personally because I hold a
view point contrary to yours.

>Adam is right... don't listen to people like me and think "ShadowRN". Oh
>please, listen to statements from people like yourself who are upset with
>the "way things are" to such an extent, that they think the admins should be
>reworked. Listen to people who make those statements and then say things
>like... "its not you Adam... ". Geesh... Adam is the guy we hear most from
>these days because he's the only one probably able to make any kind of real
>time available.

Yeah, you're right. Go ahead and change the point to try and put me on the
defensive and gain some momentium. My whole point is invalid becuase I
dared to say it OUTLOUD. Shame on me. Bad NL, bad,bad bad. Not! This whole
shift into left field where I'm the elitist because I've spoken my mind
instead of just lurking and letting everthing remain status quo. When I do
wrong I expect to get nailed for it. I don't expect my clout to settle
things for me. Nobody is above repremand. Not me, not you, not anybody.

>Your statements are elitist... I'm sorry, they aren't seperatist. I'm
>reading Adam's latest reply to your remarks now and I'm left to wonder...
>"WHAT THE HELL???" Adam may be stubbon, but he has earned the right to be

Earned it, that like saying somebody has the right to say shut up because
they've been in the neighborhood longer.

>as have every other member of *ANY* of the online communities for that
>matter... be it Bulldrek, TTF, FASA-Boards, GIX, AOL, House Talk, RPG ONLINE
>etc....ad nauseum. Those people... *THESE PEOPLE* have made themselves and
>their work available to the Online... yeah verily I can even say this with
>pride... the GLOBAL community. That is more than you have done. The people
>who come to any of these communities with questions are doing so because
>they've heard somewhere, somehow, about them and also want to be a part of
>things for whatever reason (and any member of Bulldrek knows what that can
>mean ;-).
>
>And yeah... there's more...

Oh goody. Pat yourself on your back and knock yourself out. It still has
NOTHING to do with the orginal point.
Message no. 3
From: Old Man Bethyaga acuteparanoia@*******.com
Subject: Online Community Leaders (part 2)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:15:21 CST
>From: "NeoJudas" <neojudas@******************.com>
>
>Why did they take command?
>
>Simple. They had the resources, the knowledge and the personal drive to do
>so. At the same time, they had to butt heads with any/all "contenders" for
>the situation and/or positions (as much as they could be considered such
>anyway).

Sorry--I'm still way behind and catching up, so I'm sure this has been
resolved already, but I have 2 cents just burning a hole in my pocket here.

Keith, I read the entire part 2, and some I agreed with, some I didn't, but
my bring problem was the attitude with which you approach the whole thing,
which I think is summed up nicely by your opening paragraph quoted above.

It's the word "contenders". Community leadership is not a contest. Well,
okay, actually it is--but it shouldn't be. We all disagree, and we
certainly butt heads, but it shouldn't be a fight for supremacy. In my
short history, I've seen Bulldrek spawn from DSF/DRF, and True Facade spawn
from Bulldrek, and hopefully, all three communities share members and
support each other despite occasional differences.

We're a "community". And I'm sorry that leadership is seen as something to
be fought for and wrested from others, that Adam (for example--sorry AJ) has
the position he has because he beat someone else to it.

You could claim that I misread you, but reading through all three of your
missives, I don't think I did. I think it's a shame that some people still
feel a need to play politics, and I think it's just sad that we still have
people out there who feel a need to constantly re-affirm that they are the
smartest person in the room--more concerned with being right and looking
good than with working with others to develop ideas.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Online Community Leaders (part 2), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!