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Message no. 1
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*******.COM>
Subject: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:43:45 PST
So, here I am again, asking for your opinions. Keep in mind while
reading this that the campaign is supposed to be a relatively quiet one,
that the main goal is not to be seendoing the job. Theft is the name of
the game, and not Gunfight at the OK Corral(tm).

Apparently the local "art thief" is having some reservations about the
character he is playing (realistically, this is a covert ops specialist
with an art skill). Something about being limited to only 6 points of
essence while the physical shaman can keep gaining Magic points.

<shakes head sadly>

Apparently the both of them were at Shari's and the whole "I want
Move-by-Wire 4 and Cybermancy to be allowed" debate started again. We've
had this several times now. I won't allow it because I feel that they
are game-breakers.

Basically, Move-by-Wire is a game-breaker that most GM's I know wouldn't
allow to save their lives. Can you imagine being stalked by someone that
has an essence of less than ZERO and has a reaction faster than
Superman? What, +8 Reaction, +4 Quickness and Athletics, +4d6 to
Initiative...the list goes on, if I am not mistaken.

On that note, the "Art Thief" defined a game-breaker as anything the GM
couldn't creatively take away from a character. I define a game-breaker
as anything that, well, breaks the game. In a gang campaign, a minigun
would be a game-breaker.

So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.

I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
be a wise idea, what do you think?

Zeb

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Message no. 2
From: Penta <cpenta@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:53:24 -0800
Zebulin Magby wrote:

> So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
> to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
> allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.
>
> I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
> five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
> like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
> be a wise idea, what do you think?

Whatever you do, stick to your position.....FIRMLY.
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Cotter <evilbunny@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:38:08 PST
Exactly where are they getting the huge amount of money needed for
cybermancy?

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Message no. 4
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:53:22 PST
Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:38:08 PST Patrick Cotter <evilbunny@*******.COM>
wrote:
>
>Exactly where are they getting the huge amount of money needed for
>cybermancy?
>

Well, they aren't, at least not yet. They just recently pulled off a
rather interesting art theft that netted them about 2M¥ each. (Most
spent in the cash for karma- I love that trick, err, I mean option.) But
they want the option is all....

Zeb



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Message no. 5
From: Patrick Cotter <evilbunny@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:26:47 PST
If they could afford it, I'd allow them to become cyber zombies. I
really don't think the benefits out weigh the drawbacks. Of course they
have to find a clinic still.


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Message no. 6
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:21:40 -0500
At 05:43 PM 12/21/98 PST, you wrote:

<snip tale of woe>

>So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
>to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
>allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.
>
>I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
>five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
>like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
>be a wise idea, what do you think?
>
>Zeb

You are, of course, free to do whatever you like with your game. If
somebody came to me with that position, however, my response would run
along these lines:

"Not only 'No,' not only 'Hell, no,' but 'No, and I'm sorry you'll be
leaving the game.'"

Life's too short to put up with that kind of crap...

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 7
From: Bill Chew <bill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:42:00 -0500
>
>So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
>to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
>allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.
>
>I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
>five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
>like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
>be a wise idea, what do you think?
>
>Zeb
>
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>

The regrowth stuff is totally stupid idea i'd simply say NO and slap em for
an idea. It's like being able to regenerate. But if they have the money
for MBW and the money to get it in beta grade or whatever will allow it to
be usable or can afford and find cybermancy let them. If they actually get
the MBW4 then the constant twitching and movement in them will kill them
soon and in the more likely case of not finding it available and someone
says they'll give em mbw4 but only wired3 then it's there fault for not
checking it out carefully enough.
----Bill, the Munchkin without a cause
bill@*****.com UIN: 6893009
http://www.ncweb.com/~khabal
"Never trust a munchkin with a copy of Smith and Robards!"
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:19:10 -0600
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:26:47 PST Patrick Cotter <evilbunny@*******.COM>
writes:
>If they could afford it, I'd allow them to become cyber zombies. I
>really don't think the benefits out weigh the drawbacks. Of course
>they
>have to find a clinic still.

Oh! Oh! Evil Idea! In RA:S, Deus uses Invoked Memory Stimulators which
means that Renraku /might/ have a cybermancy clinic (or possibly
manufactures the cyber end for someone else). So ... the character saves
up his money and goes in to get cybermanced as a joint
Aztechnology-Renraku venture (The clinic just /happens/ to be located in
the Arcology) ... Sometime after the cybermancy is complete but before
the character goes home, Deus takes over the Arcology ... Voila! One
Cyberzombie plaything of an AI and one group of characters who want to
get that character out (maybe ... How much nuyen did he have left after
the operation?). Sounds like fun (for the GM) to me.

Of course, if he DOES get out, Aztechnology owns his left butt check and
Renraku ones the right one ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 9
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 02:34:05 -0500
Bill Chew wrote:

> >
> >So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
> >to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
> >allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.
> >
> >I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
> >five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
> >like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
> >be a wise idea, what do you think?

I MIGHT allow essence regeneration after cyberware removal, depending on the
character and reasons for removal, etc. I think it's possible for the aura to
heal as the body does. However, it would take shitloads of karma and lots of
time. Say, twenty or thirty karma and a couple of years per half point.
Definitely not the type of quick out these guys want. Anyway, they don't sound
like the kind of guys I'd allow to heal their essence, just on principle.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 10
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:35:21 PST
Patrick Cotter:
>>Exactly where are they getting the huge amount of money needed for
>>cybermancy?

Zeb:
>Well, they aren't, at least not yet. They just recently pulled off a
>rather interesting art theft that netted them about 2M¥ each. (Most
>spent in the cash for karma- I love that trick, err, I mean option.)
But
>they want the option is all....

Well, before I get into the issues at hand, let's look at why you
disallow cybermancy and some gear in cybertech: "It's game-breaking".
If you mean it unbalances the game, my reply to that would be "so
does giving your PCs- whether they earned it or not- 2 million freaking
nuyen APIECE!".
Now, back to the issue. I would say do whatever it is your group
wants to do. The point of the game (yes, a game) is to have fun. If
you restrict what they can and can't do to the point of it taking from
their fun, they will either start playing without you, or quit gaming
altogether.
Me? I'm a republican GM. I allow anything within the rules
guidelines. If I were in your shoes, I'd allow them to have Delta grade
cyber and negative essence.... the second they can track down not only
a rare Delta clinic, but one that's willing to outfit them. And, as it
clearly suggests in Cybertech, one can't do that w/o selling his/her
soul to a Megacorp- quite literally.
However, I wouldn't say "No".


-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
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Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:58:51 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Zebulin Magby wrote:
/
/ So, here I am again, asking for your opinions. Keep in mind while
/ reading this that the campaign is supposed to be a relatively quiet one,
/ that the main goal is not to be seendoing the job. Theft is the name of
/ the game, and not Gunfight at the OK Corral(tm).
/
/ Apparently the local "art thief" is having some reservations about the
/ character he is playing (realistically, this is a covert ops specialist
/ with an art skill). Something about being limited to only 6 points of
/ essence while the physical shaman can keep gaining Magic points.
/
/ <shakes head sadly>
/
/ Apparently the both of them were at Shari's and the whole "I want
/ Move-by-Wire 4 and Cybermancy to be allowed" debate started again. We've
/ had this several times now. I won't allow it because I feel that they
/ are game-breakers.

One, how in the heck did the player's *character* find out about
cybermancy? Remember, player knowledge does not equal character
knowledge.

Two, cybermancy and MbW have some pretty severe drawbacks. Cybermancy
has to be maintained and the character has to just about sell his soul
to the Delta clinic for it. MbW will probably kill the character
within a year.

Three, in a low combat game how are they gamebreakers? If you were
running a high combat game, I'd understand. But if most of what the
PCs do is sneaking around and using their heads, how will cybermancy
and MbW affect that?

Four (Four comments, bwa ha ha ha ha <crash of thunder and flash of
lightning> :) it sounds like the issue is the player's, and not the
character's. I'd suggest asking the player what he wants and checking
a few things out. Does he want a PC that has a lot of cyberware. Does
he feel the rules are unfair (in that mages can increase their magic)?
Does he understand just how easy it is for mages to lose magic, and
that initiating is primarily a way to combat that? Does he realize how
high the cost of initiating can be (joining a group, attracting
powerful beings, etc)?

/ On that note, the "Art Thief" defined a game-breaker as anything the GM
/ couldn't creatively take away from a character. I define a game-breaker
/ as anything that, well, breaks the game. In a gang campaign, a minigun
/ would be a game-breaker.

I define a game breaker as anything that the GM can't deal with :)

On that point, I learned a few years ago that there isn't anything that
I can't deal with. If a player said, "I want to play a great dragon,"
I'd say, "No problem," and smile. For every action there is an equal
and opposite reaction. However, that opposite reaction can take many
forms <EGMG>.

A character want's, and has the resources, to get MbW. No problem. A
character uses cybermancy (again, has the resources) to have it
installed. No problem. Neither are going to help him figure out who
murdered Colonel Mustard in the Library with the Pipe Wrench.

Toys don't matter.

/ So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
/ to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
/ allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.

Yep, the player thinks the rules are unfair.

My suggestion would be to sit down and have a long talk with him. Go
over the bad points of being a mage. If he still believes the rules
are treating his character unfairly, let him make a new character and
comp him for the karma invested in his existing character (give him
karma to spend *after* character creation). Suggest that he make a
physad theif (if he wants to keep playing an art theif). Or, you could
run an adventure that ends by changing his current character into a
physad (removing all of his cyberware and restoring his essence in the
proccess).

Warning, players like this tend to have expectations that cannot be
met. If you can't meet this players expectations, let him leave to
find a group that can.

Alternatively, this character might be a power gamer, and there are
ways to deal with that. Run a parallel campaign (or a campaign with a
different RPG) that is a simple power game with no restrictions for the
characters. Let the player get it out of his system and see if he
learns the value of roleplaying.

/ I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
/ five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
/ like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
/ be a wise idea, what do you think?

In my game I allow character to regain lost essence *if* they remove
the cyberware, and then it's regained at the rate of one point per
year.

Or, I'm willing to run an adventure with the purpose of restoring lost
essence. However, such an event usually has a price that must be paid
<EGMG>.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:14:26 -0500
Well, so long as everybody else is tossing in their two cents, I
thought I'd give this a quick try. Be aware that as a GM I am mediocre
at best and *very* out of practice. That said...

Zebulin Magby wrote:
<snip>
> On that note, the "Art Thief" defined a game-breaker as anything the GM
> couldn't creatively take away from a character. I define a game-breaker
> as anything that, well, breaks the game. In a gang campaign, a minigun
> would be a game-breaker.

Both definitions are correct, btw, but will depend on the style of
game and the GM as to which one comes into play. If you're feeling
blunt, you might hint that only way to take Move-By-Wire away from
somebody is for that somebody to be dead (or paraplegic). YMMV

> So at this point they decide to start arguing for essence "regrowth" so
> to speak. They say if I won't allow cybermancy, then I should at least
> allow the "Art Thief" to gain essence to regain his lost essence.
>
> I mean, they want something to regain essence at the rate of 1 point per
> five runs or whatever it was. (They wanted to be able to regain essence
> like the Shaman could gain Magic points.) So, I don't think that would
> be a wise idea, what do you think?

My first thought is that they're asking a bit much. I don't personally
see that your art thief is getting as shafted as he apparently thinks.
If the mundie can regain essence, the mage should be able to as well
(and it's a much bigger deal for the magician).

First, whatever you do, understand that this is your decision to make
and that no-one else can make it for you. I will not issue directives,
only advice (and bear in mind that you often get about what you pay
for and that this advice is coming free;).

Second, you might want to sit down with your players and have a nice,
long chat concerning the direction of the game -- where you currently
want to take it and where they would like things to go. I'm not
suggesting specifics, just that you talk to them about what kind of
things they're expectig to get out of this (more combat, more
roleplaying, less magic, etc, etc). If their plans are differing
significantly from your own, it may be that you should shift the focus
of your game a bit.

Third, you should probably talk with this particular player and see
where he is trying to go with the character (and whether this actually
makes any sense with respect to the character). Explain why you think
that the things this player wants are gamebreakers and why you don't
want to allow them -- point out that they're not exactly necessarily
given the style of game, as well. And let him present his side of the
story.

Fourth, you may wish to give some thought to trying these things out
on a sort of trial basis. You could start up a short side game
intended for that purpose -- run it just like your other game, but try
out a few of the options that this player would like to see. Bear in
mind that just because the numbers say that item X is hugely
overpowered compared to the game, it may be pretty worthless in the
game is it never happens to come into use.

And just a little bit more:
Like K said, count your blessings. Any input is a Good Thing, even if
it's a complaint, because then it tells you where the problems are.
Criticism, in fact, is much more useful than praise because it tells
you what areas need to be fixed (and hopefully what's wrong with
them). So, be happy. They care enough about your game to say that
they've got a problem. That's a good sign:)
Keep your mind open. Just because something seems like it could cause
more problems than you want to deal with doesn't mean it will. We
aren't any of us terribly good at predicting the future, so it could
be that toying around the option a bit may persuade you that it's not
so unbalancing (and/or the player may decide that it's something they
don't really want anyway).

Well, whatever happens, good luck!

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble." --Albert Einstein
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:06:03 -0600
:>Exactly where are they getting the huge amount of money needed for
:>cybermancy?
:>

Cybermancy. Blech. Why bother?

:Well, they aren't, at least not yet. They just recently pulled off a
:rather interesting art theft that netted them about 2M¥ each. (Most
:spent in the cash for karma- I love that trick, err, I mean option.) But
:they want the option is all....


Karma for cash could seriously tip things in favor of mages, depending
on the ratio. 2M¥ each is a SHITLOAD of money (at least as raw cash- we
have some resources that valuable, but they would be damn hard to sell, or
even use effectively).

At the ratio given in the Companion, that's going to be more than 500
karma, right (assuming he "spends" the bulk of the cash that way)? With
that much karma, any mage character can be very gross, even without foci.
Its going to be particualrly disgusting in the case of a physical mage
/ shaman...

Then again, the mundane could spend the cash on karma to boost his
stats and skills; he could probably do better that way than buying MBW 4!
MBW is like burning your brain to go faster; there are cheaper wares that
(combined with the buttload of karma he could buy with the leftover cash)
would give comparable performance, with less risk.

As for actually "balancing" things with "regrowth" of essence- it
just
doesn't fit how essence works. That may create a potential power shift
towards mages, but I think its part of the GM's job to keep the campaign
on a track where that does not happen (by keeping spells, initiation, and
so on about as hard to aquire as tech toys and such, either through
un-availibilty or lower karma). If such a shift is happening rapidly and
easily, something is off-track- but I don't think that its the mundane's
lack of essence!

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:28:45 -0600
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 02:34:05 -0500 Jett <zmjett@*********.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>I MIGHT allow essence regeneration after cyberware removal, depending on
the
>character and reasons for removal, etc. I think it's possible for the
aura to
>heal as the body does. However, it would take shitloads of karma and
lots of
>time. Say, twenty or thirty karma and a couple of years per half point.
>Definitely not the type of quick out these guys want. Anyway, they don't
sound
>like the kind of guys I'd allow to heal their essence, just on
principle.

The problem is that's not what the player is asking for (I think). What
the player is asking for is that his(?) character be allowed to regain
Essence lost from cyberware without removing the cyberware ...

*To original poster*
Whatever you decide on any topic, stick by it! Don't give in because
your players whine ... Now if they can provide a logical argument as to
why you should change your mind, that's different. Second, a
game-breaker is whatever moves the game in a direction (conceptually)
away from the Gamemaster's "vision" (okay, it sounds corny, but it's the
best I could come up with.). Therefore, a game-breaker is whatever you
say it is. If they refuse to accept and recognize your authority, I'd
reccomend telling them to find a new GM. (This does not mean breaking up
the group ... someone else could GM instead of you...)

All IMO, of course :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 15
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:11:22 PST
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:06:03 -0600 Mongoose wrote:
>
> At the ratio given in the Companion, that's going to be more than
500
>karma, right (assuming he "spends" the bulk of the cash that way)?
With
>that much karma, any mage character can be very gross, even without
foci.
> Its going to be particualrly disgusting in the case of a physical
mage
>/ shaman...
>

Actually, I have enforced a rule that my players cannot get /that/ much
karma from the cash they give. Usually they can only gain up to 10 karma
after the run from cash...

I guess that can cut both ways. Mages aren't jumping Initiate grades,
but the mundanes aren't gaining super skills either.

Zeb

.sig deleted to conserve electrons


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Message no. 16
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:15:53 PST
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:28:45 -0600 "D. Ghost" wrote:
>
>The problem is that's not what the player is asking for (I think).
What
>the player is asking for is that his(?) character be allowed to regain
>Essence lost from cyberware without removing the cyberware ...
>

Absolutely correct. The character wants essense to grow back even though
he hasn't given up the cyberware. He says it's because the body would
get used to it over time...and be able to fit even more in.

Zeb


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Message no. 17
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:09:53 -0500
Zebulin Magby wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:28:45 -0600 "D. Ghost" wrote:
> >
> >The problem is that's not what the player is asking for (I think).
> What
> >the player is asking for is that his(?) character be allowed to regain
> >Essence lost from cyberware without removing the cyberware ...
> >
>
> Absolutely correct. The character wants essense to grow back even though
> he hasn't given up the cyberware. He says it's because the body would
> get used to it over time...and be able to fit even more in.
>
> Zeb

Oh. That, then, is utter bullshit.


--Jett the Pleasant

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 18
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:36:52 EST
In a message dated 12/22/1998 11:05:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
zmjett@*********.COM writes:

>
> > Absolutely correct. The character wants essense to grow back even though
> > he hasn't given up the cyberware. He says it's because the body would
> > get used to it over time...and be able to fit even more in.
> >
> > Zeb
>
> Oh. That, then, is utter bullshit.
>
In this particular instance, I will agree with Jett...

-K
Message no. 19
From: Shawn Plummer <plummer@***.CC.GENESEO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:18:55 -0500
>
>Actually, I have enforced a rule that my players cannot get /that/ much
>karma from the cash they give. Usually they can only gain up to 10 karma
>after the run from cash...
>
>I guess that can cut both ways. Mages aren't jumping Initiate grades,
>but the mundanes aren't gaining super skills either.
>
>Zeb


I use a rule that they must get rid of a percentage of their total cash to
get Karma. Usually it is 10% per karma point, up to a maximum of 10 or so
Karma per several month period. It has worked rather well. Plus
conceptually why should someone with 2 million nuyen be rewarded for giving
away 1000 just as much as the guy who has 1000 and gives up everything.

Shawn
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:36:52 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Zebulin Magby wrote:
/
/ On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:28:45 -0600 "D. Ghost" wrote:
/ >
/ >The problem is that's not what the player is asking for (I think).
/ What
/ >the player is asking for is that his(?) character be allowed to regain
/ >Essence lost from cyberware without removing the cyberware ...
/
/ Absolutely correct. The character wants essense to grow back even though
/ he hasn't given up the cyberware. He says it's because the body would
/ get used to it over time...and be able to fit even more in.

Well, if the character is the one saying that then it's perfectly okay
for the character to believe that. Doesn't mean it's going to happen
though :)

If the player is the one who believes that then all you have to do is
ask, "Where does it *specifically* say that in the rules." I've never
seen it stated as such.

If the player is asking for the rules to be changed, that's fine.
Debate it with him and make a decision. Now, if he still complains
after you've made your decision then he's whiner and should be thwapped
mightely with a carp that's been aged a few years (a carp that's been
aged a week will do in a pinch).

..Does the player/character know about delta ware? With delta ware you
can stuff a *lot* of cyberware in a person. True, mages can initiate,
but sams can upgrade to better technology. IMHO, the game is very
balanced when it comes to the haves and have nots of cyberware.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 21
From: Devotely Apathetic <devotelyapathetic@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:56:11 -0500
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:15:53 PST Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*******.COM>
writes:
>Absolutely correct. The character wants essense to grow back even
>though
>he hasn't given up the cyberware. He says it's because the body would
>get used to it over time...and be able to fit even more in.

It seems the player missed the difference between a mage and a Sam.
Sam's will typically start out as badder then the mage, but the mage will
rule the world given enough time and karma. It's just the way thing work
out. I like the whole "Selling your soul" for quick power has it's
downsides.

As for essense regrowing I think he missed a bit of the whole Cyberpunk
genre. Cyberware is weird. People with essense that isn't above 1 are
social freaks. It's an issue of the cost of being 'the best'.


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Message no. 22
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:29:42 -0600
:Actually, I have enforced a rule that my players cannot get /that/ much
:karma from the cash they give. Usually they can only gain up to 10 karma
:after the run from cash...

That is still a LOT of kamra. A run whre were earned 10 kamra is a
major run (or otherwise worht major karma). Not knowing how much play
goes into a run, I'd asy that if your characters get 15 karma per run,
they will be quite poweful in short order.
And I definatley think the suggestion of sacrificing a percentage of
your money (5% should do, with a minimum of 5000) is a good one. The
values given in the SRC work for starting characters, with thier 3d6x1000
nuyen, but not for folks hauling in milions of nuyen each.

:I guess that can cut both ways. Mages aren't jumping Initiate grades,
:but the mundanes aren't gaining super skills either.

Mages (physads in particular) may spend karma faster, but they usually
can get more for it. A prime example is the SR3 cost for power points
(20) used to purchase things like "improved ablity"; its cheap compared to
raising skills.

Mongoose
Message no. 23
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:20:25 -0600
:> > Absolutely correct. The character wants essense to grow back even
though
:> > he hasn't given up the cyberware. He says it's because the body
would
:> > get used to it over time...and be able to fit even more in.
:> >
:> > Zeb
:>
:> Oh. That, then, is utter bullshit.
:>
:In this particular instance, I will agree with Jett...
:
:-K

As do I. That has no relation to the working of essence in Shadowrun.
You could just as easily suppose that cyberware would cause continued
essence LOSS, because you are using it...

Mongoose
Message no. 24
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:44:53 -0800
> I MIGHT allow essence regeneration after cyberware removal, depending on the
>
Is essence regeneration an optional rule somewhere or is it something that
you came up with?

-Toffer
Message no. 25
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:49:57 -0500
>Is essence regeneration an optional rule somewhere or is it
>something that you came up with?

This definently falls into the house rules category.
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Message no. 26
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:22:22 -0800
> >Is essence regeneration an optional rule somewhere or is it
> >something that you came up with?
>
> This definently falls into the house rules category.
>
Good, I didn't think I missed something that big. :)


-Toffer
Message no. 27
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:57:05 EST
In a message dated 1/4/1999 12:48:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM writes:

> > I MIGHT allow essence regeneration after cyberware removal, depending on
> the
> >
> Is essence regeneration an optional rule somewhere or is it something that
> you came up with?

Essence regeneration is a house rule, as right now according to canon it is
not possible.

-Herc
Message no. 28
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Opinions needed
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:27:44 -0800
> Essence regeneration is a house rule, as right now according to canon it is
> not possible.
>
Thanks.

-Toffer

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