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Message no. 1
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:40:57 -0800
Do ordinary magnifying optics work with Astral Perception? I'm wondering
what an astrally perceiving mage would spot looking through a high-powered
optical microscope.

--
%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 2
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:41:59 EST
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:40:57 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
writes:
>Do ordinary magnifying optics work with Astral Perception? I'm
wondering
>what an astrally perceiving mage would spot looking through a
high-powered
>optical microscope.

Well, considering that the microscope is an inanimate object.....Nothing.

1) It would be for all intents and purposes a hunk of dark, opaque
stuff. (Which would possibly emnate reflections of the emotional tone
around it..)

2) Normal optics work by manipulating light, which (again) for all
intents and purposes doesn't exist in astral space, so you wouldn't see
anything.

3) Um...well, it just don't work that way.

>
>--
>%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org %

~Tim
Message no. 3
From: ZOMBIE@****.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:59:15 -0600
At Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:41:59 -0500 (EST) Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> wrote:
<el snipo>
* Well, considering that the microscope is an inanimate object.....Nothing.
*
* 1) It would be for all intents and purposes a hunk of dark, opaque
* stuff. (Which would possibly emnate reflections of the emotional tone
* around it..)
*
* 2) Normal optics work by manipulating light, which (again) for all
* intents and purposes doesn't exist in astral space, so you wouldn't see
* anything.
*
* 3) Um...well, it just don't work that way.

Actually this may be a more difficult question than you make it out to
be. According to the SR Black Book (page 145) "[...] one cannot see or
assense through a wall [....] Transparent objects retain that quality,
however." The glass was made with the sole purpose of being transparent.
Thus, on the astral it is also transparent, dispite being an inanimate
object. It is just a small step further to say that since a microscope
is made for the sole purpose of enlarging an image, it would retain that
function on the astral.

Personally I don't like that rule. I'm just arguing it to show where this
person was coming from. In my game, all inanimate objects are opaque,
regardless of their 'purpose' when they were created. You just can't see
through glass on the astral, I don't care what you say. In the loosely
quoted words of Job from The Lawnmower Man, "I'm GOD here!"
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\ \ \ \ /\ / / / / | others as miserable as your own.
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tv+ b(b+) DI++ D---- G e* h- r z+
Message no. 4
From: John Chesser <shaggy68@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:45:58 -0600
----------
> From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Optics and Astral Space
> Date: Wednesday, February 12, 1997 5:40 PM
>
> Do ordinary magnifying optics work with Astral Perception? I'm wondering
> what an astrally perceiving mage would spot looking through a
high-powered
> optical microscope.

I would say no. Because, Pg. 86, 87 and 88 of Grimmy says: Cyberware is
left behind when in astral space. Manmade objects are visible but not
solid.

I know you weren't talking about Cyberware but that is the only relevancy I
can find.

Maybe someone will invent an Enchanted Microscope!

John
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:06:38 +0100
Max Rible said on 15:40/12 Feb 97...

> Do ordinary magnifying optics work with Astral Perception? I'm
> wondering what an astrally perceiving mage would spot looking through a
> high-powered optical microscope.

Astral perception is not vision, and does not work by cells translating
light into neural signals that get interpreted by the brain -- therefore,
magnifying the image won't work at all. You'd be able to perceive through
the lenses, because glass is transparent in astral space, but I doubt
they'd magnify whatever you perceive through them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Watching re-runs on my TV.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:40:46 -0500
John Chesser enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>> Do ordinary magnifying optics work with Astral Perception? I'm wondering
>> what an astrally perceiving mage would spot looking through a
>high-powered
>> optical microscope.
>
>I would say no. Because, Pg. 86, 87 and 88 of Grimmy says: Cyberware is
>left behind when in astral space. Manmade objects are visible but not
>solid.
>I know you weren't talking about Cyberware but that is the only relevancy I
>can find.
>Maybe someone will invent an Enchanted Microscope!

Perception, not Projection.

IT's an interesting question.....I think most of us would say they don't
work, but I don't think any of will agree on WHY they don't work....

Optical Mag works through the physics of bending light. Such physics don't
function on the Astral plane.

But what about when you are inbetween? (THus his question...)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 7
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:51:36 +0000
On 12 Feb 97 at 22:41, Tim P Cooper wrote:
[sni (<-snipped snip) Max' question about microscope and astral
perception]
> Well, considering that the microscope is an inanimate object.....Nothing.
>
> 1) It would be for all intents and purposes a hunk of dark, opaque
> stuff. (Which would possibly emnate reflections of the emotional tone
> around it..)
>
> 2) Normal optics work by manipulating light, which (again) for all
> intents and purposes doesn't exist in astral space, so you wouldn't see
> anything.
>
> 3) Um...well, it just don't work that way.
SRII, p. 145: "Inanimate objects are visible [in astral space] because
of reflected light, [...]"

This strongly implies a) your 2nd statement is wrong, and b) "where
light goes, astrally perceiving chars can see" The source of light
would be life, of course.

OTOH, p. 145 also states: "[...] The laws of physics do not apply to
the astral plane." So I think on astral plane, or astrally perceiving,
a microscope (or goggles) would be just a tube one can assense through.
This is just my opinion, but I didn't find anything contradicing me.


Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 8
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:13:47 U
Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>Optics and Astral Space

>>I would say no. Because, Pg. 86, 87 and 88 of Grimmy says: Cyberware is
>>left behind when in astral space. Manmade objects are visible but not
>>solid.
>>I know you weren't talking about Cyberware but that is the only =
relevancy I
>>can find.
>>Maybe someone will invent an Enchanted Microscope!
>
>Perception, not Projection.
>
>IT's an interesting question.....I think most of us would say they don't
>work, but I don't think any of will agree on WHY they don't work....
>
>Optical Mag works through the physics of bending light. Such physics =
don't
>function on the Astral plane.
>
>But what about when you are inbetween? (THus his question...)

Ok how about this, Cybereyes with Magnification configured to be a =
Microscope instead of a Telescope. You have paid the Essence for them so =
they and all of their abilities are a part of you.
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:16:22 -0700
Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
| On 12 Feb 97 at 22:41, Tim P Cooper wrote:
| [sni (<-snipped snip) Max' question about microscope and astral
| perception]
| >
| > 1) It would be for all intents and purposes a hunk of dark, opaque
| > stuff. (Which would possibly emnate reflections of the emotional tone
| > around it..)
| >
| > 2) Normal optics work by manipulating light, which (again) for all
| > intents and purposes doesn't exist in astral space, so you wouldn't see
| > anything.
| >
| > 3) Um...well, it just don't work that way.
|
| SRII, p. 145: "Inanimate objects are visible [in astral space] because
| of reflected light, [...]"
|
| This strongly implies a) your 2nd statement is wrong, and b) "where
| light goes, astrally perceiving chars can see" The source of light
| would be life, of course.

I read that to mean that life generates and "astral" light which reflects
off of inanimate objects in astral space. And I get the impression that
that "astral" light is not the same as "physical" light, and would not
be
affected by the glass optics.

| OTOH, p. 145 also states: "[...] The laws of physics do not apply to
| the astral plane." So I think on astral plane, or astrally perceiving,
| a microscope (or goggles) would be just a tube one can assense through.

Agreed.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:13:19 -0500
>Personally I don't like that rule. I'm just arguing it to show where this person was
>coming from. In my game, all inanimate objects are opaque, regardless of their
>'purpose' when they were created. You just can't see through glass on the
>astral, I don't care what you say. In the loosely quoted words of Job from The
>Lawnmower Man, "I'm GOD here!"

I was planning on useing the same rule when I start my game up again (any
month now). It just makes sense to me: an object is only transparent to a range of
frequencies anyway, so which frequencies do you pick to be the ones that
"count" for astral space?

Something that seems to follow, IMHO, is that you can't cast spells through glass,
because you need to "synchronize the auras", meaning you need to (at least
subconsciously) perceive the aura, meaning you must have line-of-assensing
(ooh, a new term). This also would mean that the casting of spells through optic
binoculars is a no-no. It would be a _change_, no doubt.

If it effects both PCs and NPCs, does anyone see anything unbalancing about
this change?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:19 -0500
>Ok how about this, Cybereyes with Magnification configured to be a =
>Microscope instead of a Telescope. You have paid the Essence for them so =
>they and all of their abilities are a part of you.

Ooooh! Very clever! Now it is up to each GM to determine how much detail
auras have, and what the atomic units are!

One possibility: a spirit is a spirit, an aura is an aura, and there are no part spirits
or part auras (they are atomic, in technical terms). Therefore trying to discern
the components with your cybereyes will fail, no matter what the resolution.

Another possibility: Although a person has a single aura, it actually
contains/subsumes a multitude of cell auras, which contain immense magnitudes
of molecule auras, which contain atom auras, each getting smaller and weaker as
you go. Although the individual is constantly gaining and loosing individual atoms
and molecules and cells, the "master" aura retains its identity. I kind of like
this
one, it helps explain why natural materials are better than tech produced ones:
although in real life homeopathy is bullshit, in SR if each molecule has an aura,
the aura can "remember" details about it's past state, and growing slowly
inside
the earth can yield a different aura than being formed inside a blast press.

How much a character w/ such cybereyes can actually aid the state of Magical
theory is a difficult question, but you could probably get a faculty position at any
university you name if you volunteer for the surgury...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 12
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:33:33 +0000
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> IT's an interesting question.....I think most of us would say they don't
> work, but I don't think any of will agree on WHY they don't work....
>
> Optical Mag works through the physics of bending light. Such physics don't
> function on the Astral plane.
Well what about casting spells when using binoculars - it is taken for
granted that this can be done (as long as they are optical and not
electronic) yet spellcasting requires minimal astral perception to
synchronise auras.

Also what about the optical fibre stuff for security mages to cast spells
remotely - surely some magnification of the image is required, and again a
synching of auras is required for spell casting (though the spell casting
is much more difficult and draining through these things).


The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:36:50 -0500
>one, it helps explain why natural materials are better than tech produced ones:
>although in real life homeopathy is bullshit, in SR if each molecule has an
aura,
>the aura can "remember" details about it's past state, and growing slowly
inside
>the earth can yield a different aura than being formed inside a blast press.

Sounds similar to the ED concept of the Pattern....


Does anyone have anything to say about the Spiritual Helpers in Cal Free
State? AS far as I can tell, they breech a major SR rule....Magic for
non-magical characters. Unbalanced? Overdue? What do you think?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:48:59 -0500
>> Optical Mag works through the physics of bending light. Such physics don't
>> function on the Astral plane.

>Well what about casting spells when using binoculars - it is taken for
>granted that this can be done (as long as they are optical and not
>electronic) yet spellcasting requires minimal astral perception to
>synchronise auras.

Granted...hmm...I always assumed it was your PHYSICAL eyes that needed to
see him...all the ASTRAL side needed was a straight line. but wait:

>Also what about the optical fibre stuff for security mages to cast spells
>remotely - surely some magnification of the image is required, and again a
>synching of auras is required for spell casting (though the spell casting
>is much more difficult and draining through these things).

That does kind of ruin my straight line theory, doesn't it? :) I find the
curved aspect of this far more troublesome than the magnification. Hmm...

I have to say that for Perception, given these comments, Binoculars work....
at least for spell casting. (One can rule that the light of astral space is
too bright to give you any increase in distance or detail though...)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:51:51 -0700
The Digital Mage wrote:
|
| Well what about casting spells when using binoculars - it is taken for
| granted that this can be done (as long as they are optical and not
| electronic) yet spellcasting requires minimal astral perception to
| synchronise auras.
|
| Also what about the optical fibre stuff for security mages to cast spells
| remotely - surely some magnification of the image is required, and again a
| synching of auras is required for spell casting (though the spell casting
| is much more difficult and draining through these things).

Crap. You know, I thought I had this figured out, but then
you had to go and bring up the fibre optic thing <grump>.

So, it would appear that glass/fibre optics can be used to
view auras, so it might be possible to utilize optical
telescopes and microscopes from the astral plane. Though I
would consider ruling that only the image of the aura being
viewed is magnified, not the objects physical image.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 16
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:02:30 -0800
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> IT's an interesting question.....I think most of us would say they don't
> work, but I don't think any of will agree on WHY they don't work....
>
> Optical Mag works through the physics of bending light. Such physics don't
> function on the Astral plane.
>
> But what about when you are inbetween? (THus his question...)

Same answer, your Astral sight doesn't respond to the physics of light no
matter where you are. There's no half-in, or half-out...you are either
open to the astral plane or not (OK, I have no experience with that edge
in Companions so I don't have anything to say relevent to that) and if
your percieveing the astral plane then you percieve what's there.

Also like someone else said, astral perception is NOT a function of the
retinal cells (or something along those lines) it's a completely different
sense. Your question is like "What do I SEE when I place my EAR to the
telescope?" or "How does an opticel telescope enhance my hearing?". They
are just not related.

>
> -=SwiftOne=-
>

~Tim
Message no. 17
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:10:46 -0800
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Steve Collins wrote:

> Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>Optics and Astral Space
>
> >>I would say no. Because, Pg. 86, 87 and 88 of Grimmy says: Cyberware i=
s
> >>left behind when in astral space. Manmade objects are visible but not
> >>solid.
> >>I know you weren't talking about Cyberware but that is the only relevan=
cy I
> >>can find.
> >>Maybe someone will invent an Enchanted Microscope!
> >
> >Perception, not Projection.
> >
> >IT's an interesting question.....I think most of us would say they don't
> >work, but I don't think any of will agree on WHY they don't work....
> >
> >Optical Mag works through the physics of bending light. Such physics do=
n't
> >function on the Astral plane.
> >
> >But what about when you are inbetween? (THus his question...)
>
> Ok how about this, Cybereyes with Magnification configured to be a Micros=
cope
> instead of a Telescope. You have paid the Essence for them so they and
> all of their abilities are a part of you.
>

Here's a test: Do you think that it's ok for mages to add dermal armor
bonuses to their astral body?

If your answer is YES then we have two completely different views of
astral space and there isn't much I can do....if you say NO and understand
why, then you have your answer for the Cyber eyes question.

In a way it's like asking if Cyber Eyes will enhance your sensing
abilities in the Matrix. They just don't work on the same principles.

~Tim
Message no. 18
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:23:55 -0800
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Mike Elkins wrote:

> >Ok how about this, Cybereyes with Magnification configured to be a =
> >Microscope instead of a Telescope. You have paid the Essence for them so =
> >they and all of their abilities are a part of you.
>
> Ooooh! Very clever! Now it is up to each GM to determine how much detail
> auras have, and what the atomic units are!
>
> One possibility: a spirit is a spirit, an aura is an aura, and there are no part
spirits
> or part auras (they are atomic, in technical terms). Therefore trying to discern
> the components with your cybereyes will fail, no matter what the resolution.
>
> Another possibility: Although a person has a single aura, it actually
> contains/subsumes a multitude of cell auras, which contain immense magnitudes
> of molecule auras, which contain atom auras, each getting smaller and weaker as
> you go. Although the individual is constantly gaining and loosing individual atoms
> and molecules and cells, the "master" aura retains its identity. I kind of
like this
> one, it helps explain why natural materials are better than tech produced ones:
> although in real life homeopathy is bullshit, in SR if each molecule has an aura,
> the aura can "remember" details about it's past state, and growing slowly
inside
> the earth can yield a different aura than being formed inside a blast press.
>
> How much a character w/ such cybereyes can actually aid the state of Magical
> theory is a difficult question, but you could probably get a faculty position at any
> university you name if you volunteer for the surgury...
>
> Double-Domed Mike
>

Ahh, but you made one little mistake... your applying real world physics
to astral space. And I remember reading a few posts back that quote from
the rule book that says _that_ isn't valid.

IMHO concepts like atoms and molecules don't exist on the astral plane,
nor do other "real space" physics concepts.

~Tim
Message no. 19
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:10:00 -0800
At 15:33 2/13/97 +0000, The Digital Mage wrote:
>Well what about casting spells when using binoculars - it is taken for
>granted that this can be done (as long as they are optical and not
>electronic) yet spellcasting requires minimal astral perception to
>synchronise auras.

>Also what about the optical fibre stuff for security mages to cast spells
>remotely - surely some magnification of the image is required, and again a
>synching of auras is required for spell casting (though the spell casting
>is much more difficult and draining through these things).

One possibility is that optics don't work on the Astral Plane, and the
people using optical fibers and binoculars are using ordinary physical sight
in order to get LOS on a particular target. This implies, however, that
some magically active biologists might have some really interesting suites
of spells that are designed to affect single-cell targets. Making the target
numbers more difficult, as in using fiber optics, might be appropriate.

(Fortunately, you're still limited by the wavelengths of light, so you couldn't
use Astral Perception on something you're looking at with an electron
microscope-- I don't *care* if you paid Essence for it. No single-atom
targets...)

However, I can see an excellent argument for microscopes allowing Astral
Perception just like glass. (Argument 1: it does the same thing to light
on both planes. Argument 2: glass is transparent because it's designed to
be. Microscopes should magnify because they're supposed to, and the light
has that same LOS connection in the physical plane.) Microscopic auras might
be quite interesting-- I wonder what HMHVV looks like under a microscope?
(Personally, I have great difficulty actually believing it to be a virus--
how does it infect someone when their heart isn't pumping it around?)

--
%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 20
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:55:16 +0100
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:51:51 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:

>So, it would appear that glass/fibre optics can be used to
>view auras, so it might be possible to utilize optical
>telescopes and microscopes from the astral plane. Though I
>would consider ruling that only the image of the aura being
>viewed is magnified, not the objects physical image.

There are two diffent things now, I think.
First, there is using optical enhancements from physical plane to view
auras. That may work IMO (but no proof by the rules), but no
magnification would work. You see them or you don't, but modifiers for
partially visible targets apply. And, of, course, using fiber-optics
makes spellcasting a lot more stressing. See corporate sec. handbook
for details, which I think is reasonable.
Second, using cyber-magnification from astral to astral or physical
plane. This never works, since from astral you only perceive auras, and
these are never affected by magnification of any sort.
--
Arno
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Message no. 21
From: Craig J Wilhelm <craigwjr@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:38:55 EST
I personally allow a magician to use a microscope or other
magnifying device while projecting or perciving because of
this statement on p145, paragraph 4 the main rule book:

Inanimate objects are visible because of reflected light, and
block the passage if magical energy and emotions, two pimary
elements of the astral form, or aura. yadda, yadda, yadda,
yadda
yadda
Um-hm
Um-hm
yadda
yadda........... Transparent objects retain that quality, however.

So, photons reflected off of physical objects are used to see,
at least in some respects, and transparent objects, like the
lenses in an optical microscope, are still transparent.
Since the light is bent, and the object is thus magnified,
before it reaches your "Astral eyes", you would see a magnified
object if you looked through a physical microscope while Astrally
projecting or perciving.
Also. If you couldn't use a microscope while perciving
(or projecting for that matter), how do you suppose they tested
and developed FAB bacteria?

That's why I allow a magician to use a microscope or other
magnifying device while projecting and perciving.

Enjoy,
Craig.

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Message no. 22
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:02:20 -0800
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Craig J Wilhelm wrote:

> I personally allow a magician to use a microscope or other
> magnifying device while projecting or perciving because of
> this statement on p145, paragraph 4 the main rule book:
>
> Inanimate objects are visible because of reflected light, and
> block the passage if magical energy and emotions, two pimary
> elements of the astral form, or aura. yadda, yadda, yadda,
> yadda
> yadda
> Um-hm
> Um-hm
> yadda
> yadda........... Transparent objects retain that quality, however.
>
> So, photons reflected off of physical objects are used to see,
> at least in some respects, and transparent objects, like the
> lenses in an optical microscope, are still transparent.
> Since the light is bent, and the object is thus magnified,
> before it reaches your "Astral eyes", you would see a magnified
> object if you looked through a physical microscope while Astrally
> projecting or perciving.

Your still making the assumption that the "light" you are percieving in
Astral space is infact composed of photons...something I disagree with.

(And the assumption that you percieve astral events with your optic
nerves.)

If that was the case why couldn't you use mundane devices to percieve
astral phenomenon, provided they could view the appropriate spectrum?

> Also. If you couldn't use a microscope while perciving
> (or projecting for that matter), how do you suppose they tested
> and developed FAB bacteria?

No comment (I haven't read that book in a while and forget how they
justified it's existance and function.)

> Craig.
>

You know I think it all falls down to the question of WHAT you use when
astrally percieving/projecting. It's either your eyes/optic nerves/retina
or it's something else. I vote for the latter.

~Tim
Message no. 23
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 04:59:02 +0000
On 13 Feb 97 at 15:33, The Digital Mage wrote:
[snip]
> Also what about the optical fibre stuff for security mages to cast spells
> remotely - surely some magnification of the image is required, and again a
> synching of auras is required for spell casting (though the spell casting
> is much more difficult and draining through these things).
Assensing is _definitly_ not the same thing as spell casting. See
magical Adepts (SRII, p. 124) for evidence. Same for binoculars.

On 13 Feb 97 at 10:13, Mike Elkins wrote:
[snip]
> Something that seems to follow, IMHO, is that you can't cast spells
> through glass, because you need to "synchronize the auras", meaning
> you need to (at least subconsciously) perceive the aura, meaning you
> must have line-of-assensing (ooh, a new term). This also would mean
> that the casting of spells through optic binoculars is a no-no. It
> would be a _change_, no doubt.
SRII p. 130: Mirrors work fine, and transparent glass is no hindrance
[...]." Ooops, I fear you are wrong here, Mike.
Message no. 24
From: ZOMBIE@****.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:10:04 -0600
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 04:59:02 +0000 Sascha Pabst wrote:
<el snipo>
* On 13 Feb 97 at 10:13, Mike Elkins wrote:
* [snip]
* > Something that seems to follow, IMHO, is that you can't cast spells
* > through glass, because you need to "synchronize the auras", meaning
* > you need to (at least subconsciously) perceive the aura, meaning you
* > must have line-of-assensing (ooh, a new term). This also would mean
* > that the casting of spells through optic binoculars is a no-no. It
* > would be a _change_, no doubt.
* SRII p. 130: Mirrors work fine, and transparent glass is no hindrance
* [...]." Ooops, I fear you are wrong here, Mike.

Actually he was discussing a possible house rule making ALL inanimate,
unliving objects opaque in astral space, effectively making mirrors
and glass windows the same as a brick wall in terms of assensing (and
spellcasting). Since this is a house rule we're discussing, nothing
you can quote from the rules has any relavence to the topic. BTW Mike,
I like the idea and will see how it goes in my next venture into the
realm of GMing.
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Message no. 25
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:47:43 -0500
Tim Cooper enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>Same answer, your Astral sight doesn't respond to the physics of light no
>matter where you are. There's no half-in, or half-out...you are either
>open to the astral plane or not (OK, I have no experience with that edge
>in Companions so I don't have anything to say relevent to that) and if
>your percieveing the astral plane then you percieve what's there.

So what about fiber optics? You can see around a corner with that....and
"match" auras to cast your spell....implying that on some level, astral
information goes through that line...

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 26
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Optics and Astral Space
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:09:05 +0000
On 14 Feb 97 at 18:47, Brett Borger wrote:
[snip]
> So what about fiber optics? You can see around a corner with that....and
> "match" auras to cast your spell....implying that on some level, astral
> information goes through that line...

SRII, p. (Drek, just another page got loose!) 130: "Mirrirs work fine,
[...]" (for spell targeting (not for Dam. Manipulations!). But as
ascanning isn't the same as spell targeting (how would a sorcerer
adept cast spells if it were?) this isn't quite to the point...


Sascha
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Further Reading

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