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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:17:56 -0400
OK, I sat down and was reviewing some of the stuff I'd done with the
Vampire Optional Metatype (and was in the process of working up rules for a
Wendigo to go along with it) when I realized I had Forgotten a few things
(Like the Vampire's Initiative), and that I didn;t have any rules for
turning a current human character into a Vampire. So, here's my modified
Vampire Rules (Vamp 2.0:))

VAMPIRE CHARACTERS

The rules below allow you to create vampire characters, either as a
starting character, or to turn your current favorite Human PC into a Vampire.

HUMAN HMHVV (Contracting Vampirism)

First off, HMHVV is contracted when a human is killed do to having all of
his/her essence drained by a Vampire. The human body will remain legally
dead and lifeless until it rises upon sunset 24 hours after death occurred.
At this time, the new Vampire awakens, and his initial powersd manafest.

Also, latent regeneration powers (Even if the Vampire has no Regeneration
during the early part of his life) will force any and all Cyberware and
Bioware from it's body. This can be very painful, especially if the
vampire had cyberware that connected to his nervous system, like Wired
Reflexes or Skill wires.

However, his body will be completely whole and normal, with no scarring,
and any body parts that were replaced by articfial devices will have grown
back fully. The new vampire, however, will begin it's new life with an
Essence of 1, and will be quite hungry. Vampires often are forced to feed
on the first victim they find after awakening to their new life. They
will, most often, retain their memories of their former lives, though the
memories of their last moments of true life (i.e., meeting the vampire that
killed them, and tyheir death) will be blank or fuzzy, as the human psyche
doesn't deal with death very well.

If the body of a human that has contracted HMHVV is destroyed before it
"awakens", then the person will not rise as a vampire. Methods of
destruction include incinerating the body, or dismemberment with a Stake
thru the heart, and the head cut off. The latter form is more common due
to the common misconceptions based on movies and novels such as Dracula, by
Bram Stoker. This method works, however, due to the body not being able to
regenerate itself from the severed head and the stake.

Rules:

The Vampire works similar to the way a Phys-Ad works, so that playing
something like a vampire is somewhat feasible (but still very suseptible to
munchkinizing. Sorry, but there's no way to make a vampire that isn't a
munchkin, at least deep down inside.)

If the character is a new character, you pick your priorities. Race must
be priority (A), and depnending on whether you wanted a spellcasting
Vampire or not, Magic would be (B) or (C), with (B) being for the
spellcaster. Magic can NOT be taken any lower than (C), as the character
is similar to a Phys Ad, even if he can cast spells. I would also suggest
using the more metahuman rule if using this with a regular group.

If you are using the SR Companion rules, You must spend 10 points for
Metahuman, and then either 20 points for Magician or 15 points for a Phys
Ad (Even though he is technically not a Physical Adept).

Other than that, the rest of the char is standard. The last thing you do
is pick your vampiric powers, which are detailed below.

If the character is a currfent PC getting transformed do to contracting
HMHVV, his natural, unmodified stats are used as the base for the vampire.
Any bioware or cyberware is lost during the transformation, so the
characters stats drop accordingly. He also gets to choose vampiric powers,
though alternatively the GM can choose what powers he starts off with.

Also, Vampire Mages can still cast spells, and their magic rating strats as
either a 6 for new characters, or as whatever the old PC's magic rating was
before he was turned into a Vampire.

OPTIONAL RULE: Depending on how a particular GM sees it, you may want to
be careful with spellcasting Vampires who want to cast spells higher than
their magic rating, hoping to regenerate from physical damage. i suggest
either not allowing a vamp mage to be able to cast spells higher than their
magic rating, or if a vamp takes physical damage from spellcasting and
regenerates, have him simply take stun instead. This prevents Spellcasting
Vampires from getting overly powerful and simply regenrating whenever they
take physical damage.


The Vampire get three "Power Points", which is what he uses to buy his
vampiric powers. All vampiric characters are new vampires, freshly
infected with the Vampiric Disease, thus they haven't fully developed most
of there powers.

Also, Vampires have a large amount of weaknesses. These vary from Vampire
to vampire, and some even have few, if any, weaknesses. You can buy
Vampiric Weaknesses, which will then give you more Power Points to spend on
Vampiric Powers. This is similar to the Edges and Flaws from the
Companion. Weaknesses can ONLY be bought at character creation, and the
bonus Power Points given by them MUST be spent at that time. Any points
not spent at this time are lost. You may not "save" points or partial
point until the next "grade", or Vampire Level.

Powers (Point cost)

Enhanced Strength (1)
Enhanced Hearing (.25)
Enhanced Smell (.25)
Essence Drain (*)
Immunity to Aging (.25)
Immunity to poison (.25)
Imm. to pathogenins (.25)
Infection (1)
Mist Form (2)
Thermographic Vision (.25)
Regeneration (1/lvl)
Natural Claws (.5)
Heightened Speed (1 point)

Weaknesses (Points given)

Allergy to Sunlight, Mild (*) ((This may be upgraded)
Allergy to Sunlight, Moderate (.5)
Allergy to Sunlight, Severe (1)
Induced Dormancy from Lack of Oxygen (.25)
Vulnerability to Wood (.25/level)
Allergy (Psychological) to Holy Symbols (.5)
Unable to use Cyberware or Bioware (*)
Essence Loss (*)
Natural Lack of Bouyancy (*)

Powers or Weaknesses marked with '*' are automatically gained. They
cannot be bought off, nor do they give any bonus.

Now, what do some of these do? Well, in general, I followed the book and
took there normal powers. Some I modified. The most noticable change is
in the regeneration. Having a 2+ regen on a d6 gets vulgar, so you make it
difficult to get. Each level improvs the roll by 1 number. the chart
below calculates it. Notice at level one, you do not have a roll. This is
simply a basic regen. If you are hit for a Deadly wound, you are dying.
You do not get to regen. However, If you are at below a deadly wound, then
you auto regen like normal. The cost is deliberately high so that all but
the most powerful vampires instantly regenerate everything. Also, not that
stun damage DOES NOT regen. However, as this was much discussed just
recently on the list feel free to make this rule optional (you will
anyways, so I might as well give permission.)

Regeneration Chart

Level 1 Basic Regen, no roll for deadly wound.
Level 2 Roll of 6 to regen
Level 3 Roll of 5 to regen
Level 4 Roll of 4 to regen
Level 5 Roll of 3 to regen
Level 6 Roll of 2 to regen
Level 7 Roll of 1 to regen
Level 8 DOESN'T EXIST!!!

Also, the other thing I modified is the weakness wood. You can take it at
4 levels, nuisance, moderate, Serious, and deadly. This buys that allergy
at that level, as well as affects the damage code of pure wooden weapons
(No formica or varnished wood. It reduces the damage). Each level
automatically stages the damage from such a weapon up one notch (or 2
automatic successes, depending on how you calculate it).

Ex. a wooden club that does 6L damage normally, will do 6S damage instead
to someone with a level two allergy.

Also, A vampire is unable to use cyberware or bioware, as it messes up his
essence and if he had the regeneration ability, it would automatically kick
the intruding piece out and replace it with a regenrated original.

Claws are simialar to cyber spurs and will do Str M damage.

Heightened Speed gives the vampire +1d6 to initiative.

Psychological Weakness to Holy Symbols: This weakness will cause a Vampire
to want to avoid viewing Holy Symbols or holy men, and being inside a
church or being touched by a holy symbol will cause the vampire to take 6S
stun damage/round of exposure, as well as cause him to become violently ill
for several rounds.

Lastly, the Vampire has grades called Vampire Levels, similar to Initiate
grades for Mages/Shamans/PA. The Karma costs are the same, except that
they do not have the quest type options available. They COULD, however,
group initiate with vampired of a higher grade. This "initiation"
basically consists of the Vampire taking the time to learn about himself
and learn new powers or learn how to use his natural powers more easily.
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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-- Me
Message no. 2
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:45:00 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 10:54:12 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:

Okay, I admit I snipped stuff both before and after this paragraph, which
lots of it sounded good, this one part just had my attention...

> If the character is a currfent PC getting transformed do to contracting
> HMHVV, his natural, unmodified stats are used as the base for the vampire.
> Any bioware or cyberware is lost during the transformation, so the
> characters stats drop accordingly. He also gets to choose vampiric
powers,
> though alternatively the GM can choose what powers he starts off with.

What about the character "Nemesis" from the module "Total Eclipse".
His
cyberware and stuff still works in the game. Perhaps the conversion to
vampirism has many of the same actives as the conversion into a Ghoul. Those
rules, found in the Target UCAS book, could be used here as well.
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:51:49 -0400
At 07:45 PM 8/1/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-07-31 10:54:12 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:
>
>Okay, I admit I snipped stuff both before and after this paragraph, which
>lots of it sounded good, this one part just had my attention...
>
>> If the character is a currfent PC getting transformed do to contracting
>> HMHVV, his natural, unmodified stats are used as the base for the vampire.
>> Any bioware or cyberware is lost during the transformation, so the
>> characters stats drop accordingly. He also gets to choose vampiric
>powers,
>> though alternatively the GM can choose what powers he starts off with.
>
>What about the character "Nemesis" from the module "Total
Eclipse". His
>cyberware and stuff still works in the game. Perhaps the conversion to
>vampirism has many of the same actives as the conversion into a Ghoul. Those
>rules, found in the Target UCAS book, could be used here as well.
>
I've seen this come up as well, and if I recall correctly, tehre is some
unofficial errata taht says to remove the vamps cyber... It was an error.

And it's not Total Eclipse you're thinking of... It was... Ummm.... i
don;t remember the name. But it was the one that had (I thik) Jatblack's
old band from before he died...:] (No more siad due to spoliers).

I'll make it a point to ask about that one at Gen Con, unless someone else
can point us in the right direction before then...:]

Bull

--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 4
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:32:25 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-01 19:56:25 EDT, you write:

> I've seen this come up as well, and if I recall correctly, tehre is some
> unofficial errata taht says to remove the vamps cyber... It was an error.

HERE I COME TO POINT AWAY! (Sorry, it looked like a dramatic moment. =)

According to Tom Dowd, a person infected with HMHVV keeps their cyberware
after the transformation is complete. The reason for this is the same one
that allows a mage with cybereyes to cast spells - they paid the Essence for
them. Also, normally when HMHVV is contracted (at least with humans, I dunno
about the other metas) the vampire's essence is doubled, so in the case of a
vamp with one essence, they have 5 essence worth of cyber and 2 remaining
essence points. From what I gather, the essence cost is spent to make the
cyber an integral part of the person's being on all levels, so HMHVV won't
expel the cyber, because the cyber is as much a part of you as your stomach.

Wolfstar
Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:56:13 -0400
At 08:32 PM 8/1/97 -0400, George Metz wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-01 19:56:25 EDT, you write:
>
>> I've seen this come up as well, and if I recall correctly, tehre is some
>> unofficial errata taht says to remove the vamps cyber... It was an error.
>
> HERE I COME TO POINT AWAY! (Sorry, it looked like a dramatic moment. =)
>
> According to Tom Dowd, a person infected with HMHVV keeps their cyberware
>after the transformation is complete. The reason for this is the same one
>that allows a mage with cybereyes to cast spells - they paid the Essence for
>them. Also, normally when HMHVV is contracted (at least with humans, I dunno
>about the other metas) the vampire's essence is doubled, so in the case of a
>vamp with one essence, they have 5 essence worth of cyber and 2 remaining
>essence points. From what I gather, the essence cost is spent to make the
>cyber an integral part of the person's being on all levels, so HMHVV won't
>expel the cyber, because the cyber is as much a part of you as your stomach.
>
No offense to you, Wolfstar, or Tom Dowd, but...

It doesn't really wash. Sure, it COULD work like that, but... It just
doesn't seem feasible from the stand point of the vamp. Going by what
you'[re saying, since the cyberware is now part of the new creature (The
vampire), there's no reason a Vampire couldn't get cyberware implanted
(Other than wwhatever difficulty you'ld have implanting it, since that
incision you keep making heals almost instantly). Also, if it's so mch a
natural part of the vampire, then shouldn't it, by default, regenerate?

((I realize just how stupid that last bit sounds, but I'm making a point.:)))

Also, as much as I like the world that Tom Dowd helped to create, and this
is all IMO, Tom and some of the other old timers from FASA weren't real
good with things like consistancy. A lot of what they originally created
was done simply because it's "cool" or made for a neat story (i.e., the
Immortal Elves).

And of course, since there is nothing official on this point, maybe we can
get an "official" standpoint from Mike at Gen Con. i'll mail him and ask
him tonite, but don;t expect an answer till i get back. :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 6
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:10:04 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-01 23:00:51 EDT, you write:

> No offense to you, Wolfstar, or Tom Dowd, but...

None taken by me, but you might wanna check with Tom to see if he's upset.
=)

> It doesn't really wash. Sure, it COULD work like that, but... It just
> doesn't seem feasible from the stand point of the vamp. Going by what
> you'[re saying, since the cyberware is now part of the new creature (The
> vampire), there's no reason a Vampire couldn't get cyberware implanted
> (Other than wwhatever difficulty you'ld have implanting it, since that
> incision you keep making heals almost instantly). Also, if it's so mch a
> natural part of the vampire, then shouldn't it, by default, regenerate?

Same reason shapeshifters can't get bio or cyber, they regenerate way too
fast for the surgeons to do the proper connections and the like. If you could
find a way to keep the damned beastie open for more than three seconds then
yeah, you can get the surgery done. But I doubt ANYTHING, not even magic,
could supress their regeneration for long enough. If you could, whatever it
was would become as common as mace anywhere vampires are known to be.
As for regenerating cyber, I understand why not, but bear with me 'cause
it's a bit difficult to express. Basically, the cyber's "pattern" merges with
the character's Aura Template. Regeneration is a biological function, and
last I checked metal had molecules. I suppose that the magical nature of the
vampire would, if a vamp with spurs got his arm blown off, that the arm may
well regenerate with spurs, because regeneration effectively looks at damage
as a difference between the physical body and the aural template, and
attempts to correct the physical so it conforms to the aural template.

Wolfstar
Message no. 7
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:21:29 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-01 19:56:26 EDT, chaos@*****.COM writes:

>
> And it's not Total Eclipse you're thinking of... It was... Ummm.... i
> don;t remember the name. But it was the one that had (I thik) Jatblack's
> old band from before he died...:] (No more siad due to spoliers).
>
>
Ugh, er, nope, Total Eclipse, Page 29, big picture of his mug down the right
hand side of the sheet.
-K
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:30:52 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-01 23:00:52 EDT, chaos@*****.COM writes:

> No offense to you, Wolfstar, or Tom Dowd, but...

Oooh, goodie, a nice one coming on...

> It doesn't really wash. Sure, it COULD work like that, but... It just
> doesn't seem feasible from the stand point of the vamp. Going by what
> you'[re saying, since the cyberware is now part of the new creature (The
> vampire), there's no reason a Vampire couldn't get cyberware implanted
> (Other than wwhatever difficulty you'ld have implanting it, since that
> incision you keep making heals almost instantly). Also, if it's so mch a
> natural part of the vampire, then shouldn't it, by default, regenerate?

Problem, the Regeneration is based upon the beginning individual's "template"
as it were. In this case, the template includes the cyberware/bioware of a
given individual and works from that. Sure, they might not be able to
implant later, but that doesn't stop what was already placed inside.

Regeneration is NOT the same as Biorejection, and that is also something to
be considered.

> ((I realize just how stupid that last bit sounds, but I'm making a
point.:)))

Point taken.

> Also, as much as I like the world that Tom Dowd helped to create, and this
> is all IMO, Tom and some of the other old timers from FASA weren't real
> good with things like consistancy. A lot of what they originally created
> was done simply because it's "cool" or made for a neat story (i.e., the
> Immortal Elves).

Oh, very solid agreement there. The part I like is that after it was all
"Dreamed Up" to work a certain way without the real idea of HOW it works, it
has been left up to the rest of us to "Reverse Engineer" the rules.

> And of course, since there is nothing official on this point, maybe we can
> get an "official" standpoint from Mike at Gen Con. i'll mail him and ask
> him tonite, but don;t expect an answer till i get back. :]
> Bull

Problem, IIRC, Mr. Mulhilvill (okay, so I can't spell the name) doesn't like
the Shapers or Vamps in the game as characters anyway. Or am I thinking of
someone else?
-K
Message no. 9
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:53:04 -0400
At 06:21 PM 8/2/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-01 19:56:26 EDT, chaos@*****.COM writes:
>
>>
>> And it's not Total Eclipse you're thinking of... It was... Ummm.... i
>> don;t remember the name. But it was the one that had (I thik) Jatblack's
>> old band from before he died...:] (No more siad due to spoliers).
>>
>>
>Ugh, er, nope, Total Eclipse, Page 29, big picture of his mug down the right
>hand side of the sheet.
>-K
>
Ok, you're are correct... I found him in there... (Never really read the
module that well, just played it, and we never ran into hi...)

However, the character is mre than just a little "off". i mean, he's got a
damned Quickness of 30! And a Magic Rating of 10, without initiating??

I think they were assuming his essence equaled his magic rating, which is
normally true, but I don;t think it quite applies in the case of something
that loses and gains essence all the time...

Like I said, I think that charcter was just one big mistake from the
beginning... Little, if any real thought was put behind it, and now we're
having the problems we are today...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 10
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:53:07 -0400
At 06:30 PM 8/2/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-01 23:00:52 EDT, chaos@*****.COM writes:
>
>> No offense to you, Wolfstar, or Tom Dowd, but...
>
>Oooh, goodie, a nice one coming on...
>
No no... i don;t flame if I can help it... And this little statement was
to make sure everyone knew I wasn't flaming...;]

>> It doesn't really wash. Sure, it COULD work like that, but... It just
>> doesn't seem feasible from the stand point of the vamp. Going by what
>> you'[re saying, since the cyberware is now part of the new creature (The
>> vampire), there's no reason a Vampire couldn't get cyberware implanted
>> (Other than wwhatever difficulty you'ld have implanting it, since that
>> incision you keep making heals almost instantly). Also, if it's so mch a
>> natural part of the vampire, then shouldn't it, by default, regenerate?
>
>Problem, the Regeneration is based upon the beginning individual's
"template"
>as it were. In this case, the template includes the cyberware/bioware of a
>given individual and works from that. Sure, they might not be able to
>implant later, but that doesn't stop what was already placed inside.
>
The thing you have to keep in mind here though is taht, going along with
the Vampire thread from a little while ago, the vampire is a completely
different creature than it was as a human, right down to cellular
structure. HMHVV isn't a viras in the same way that VITAS or a Flu is a
viras. it completely rewrites your genetic structure and makes you a
different creature.

This extends into the realm of cyberware. It may have been part of the
original creatures "essence", but it is not part of teh genetic code, and
that is what I would assume the regeneration of the creature is based on.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Vampires wake up "Hungry". I would
assume this means they have very little natural essence, and thus have to
drain essence right away. Chances are, if you assume vamps keep their
cyberware, and you subtract that from whatever their current essence is
(Since it fluctuates so much), then Cybered characters simply can't be
vampires, unless they only had the most minimal of cyberware.

I'd assume a Vamp wakes up with 1 point of essence initially, if that.
thus the need to feed. So if the character has more than .99 points of
cyberware, then the vamp wakes up, and dies from essence loss.

This is a rule I can agree on, probably.

The biggest reason I limited the character to no cyber initialy was because
I wanted to create a character that was somewhat balanced and could be used
in a starting level campaign. The vamp, with it's powers and stuff, could
possibly start more powerful than other starting characters, but between
his weaknesses and the problems that come with Vampirism sort of balance
that out, if the GM takes advantage of it.

Cyberware throws that balance all out of whack.

>Regeneration is NOT the same as Biorejection, and that is also something to
>be considered.
>
Agreed. And I think that even more than the rejeneratin, Bioware would be
subject to biorejection.

Bioware needs to be specifically taylored to a person so that the body will
accept it. Other wise, the body will reject it and you could die.

In a Vampire, since the DNA code was rewritten, the bioware prbably won't
hold, and get rejected, thus actuivating the bodies regeneration abilities...

>> ((I realize just how stupid that last bit sounds, but I'm making a
>point.:)))
>
>Point taken.
>
<grin>

>> Also, as much as I like the world that Tom Dowd helped to create, and this
>> is all IMO, Tom and some of the other old timers from FASA weren't real
>> good with things like consistancy. A lot of what they originally created
>> was done simply because it's "cool" or made for a neat story (i.e.,
the
>> Immortal Elves).
>
>Oh, very solid agreement there. The part I like is that after it was all
>"Dreamed Up" to work a certain way without the real idea of HOW it works, it
>has been left up to the rest of us to "Reverse Engineer" the rules.
>
Heh... you should hear how happy Mike is that he's been left with the task
of Officially Reverse Engineering stuff...:]

>> And of course, since there is nothing official on this point, maybe we can
>> get an "official" standpoint from Mike at Gen Con. i'll mail him and
ask
>> him tonite, but don;t expect an answer till i get back. :]
>> Bull
>
>Problem, IIRC, Mr. Mulhilvill (okay, so I can't spell the name) doesn't like
>the Shapers or Vamps in the game as characters anyway. Or am I thinking of
>someone else?
>
Ummm, since Shapeshifter characters were part of the Cmpanion, I'd have to
say that he's not completely against it...;]

No, Mike' specific gripes are the Immortal Elves, the Horrors, and
Earthdawn links to SR...;] I've never heard him say anything about Vamps
as characters... I'll find out more toward Gen Con...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 11
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:39:42 -0500
At 02-Aug-97 wrote George Metz:

>Basically, the cyber's "pattern" merges with
>the character's Aura Template. Regeneration is a biological function, and
>last I checked metal had molecules. I suppose that the magical nature of the
>vampire would, if a vamp with spurs got his arm blown off, that the arm may
>well regenerate with spurs, because regeneration effectively looks at damage
>as a difference between the physical body and the aural template, and
>attempts to correct the physical so it conforms to the aural template.


Have you ever seen one of the old Captain Power series?
Beside its real crap, the one very cool thing they had
was living and regenerating robots.
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:40:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-02 19:01:52 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:

> Ok, you're are correct... I found him in there... (Never really read the
> module that well, just played it, and we never ran into hi...)

Ah, but it was so wickedly cool. A bit goofish at the end, our group
actually played the game with modern "hypno-rock" playing the background for
event color.

> However, the character is mre than just a little "off". i mean, he's got
a
> damned Quickness of 30! And a Magic Rating of 10, without initiating??

Actually, the Magic Attribute rating -might- be possible, as he is a Vampire,
and their Essence (possible magic attribute connection) can be that high.
Now the Quickness of 30, I know lots of people that have asked "WHY?!?"

> I think they were assuming his essence equaled his magic rating, which is
> normally true, but I don;t think it quite applies in the case of something
> that loses and gains essence all the time...

Has anyone considered the Geasa rules for Vampires and their "fluctual
attribute" before? We've come around that discussion topic here in Lafalot,
but I don't really feel like going into the details unless someone asks.

> Like I said, I think that charcter was just one big mistake from the
> beginning... Little, if any real thought was put behind it, and now we're
> having the problems we are today...

That is probably true. What I think someone might have been doing for the
"30 Quickness" was impress upon the idea of the Vampires from so many modern
artists. If you remember right, a Vampire in Anne Rice could "move so
quickly you simply cannot see me do it."

Good Luck at the Con.
-K
Message no. 13
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:06:44 EDT
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:53:04 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:

>I think they were assuming his essence equaled his magic rating, which
>is
>normally true, but I don;t think it quite applies in the case of
>something
>that loses and gains essence all the time...

I don't know, works for me. And with what Keith mentioned (I'm assuming
that as your Essence Rating drops, your Magic drops and you pick up geasa
accrodingly) I'd say that it's about as balanced as it gets (although
with vamps, that's a debatable point:)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 14
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:06:44 EDT
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:10:04 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:
<<Same reason shapeshifters can't get bio or cyber, they regenerate way
too fast for the surgeons to do the proper connections and the like. If
you could find a way to keep the damned beastie open for more than three
seconds then yeah, you can get the surgery done. But I doubt ANYTHING,
not even magic, could supress their regeneration for long enough.>>

Wrongo, Wolfy-boy:) Shapers can't get _cyber_ because it will be regen'd
out next time they shift into animal form. According to the most recent
info on shapers (SR Companion), they don't regen in human form (well, PC
shapers don't. I don't like the idea of giving the NPCs that big an
advantage over a PC if the only difference is the fact that the NPC is an
NPC and the PC isn't, so no shaper in my game regens in human form, but I
also don't bother with the Regen rules as written, though I do use some
parts of them. While I'm rambling on the subject: anyone else notice that
the regen rules for Shapeshifters contained in the Companion suggests
that their Essence rating might actually change depending on which form
they're in?). In any case, the restriction only applies to cyberware, and
they don't regen in human form. Bioware isn't noted and could probably be
implanted while the character was in human form, but it would probably
need to be cultured, and it might not work while the character was in
animal form.


--
-Canthros (Powergamer? Moi?)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 15
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:06:44 EDT
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:53:07 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:

<<The thing you have to keep in mind here though is taht, going along
with the Vampire thread from a little while ago, the vampire is a
completely different creature than it was as a human, right down to
cellular structure. HMHVV isn't a viras in the same way that VITAS or a
Flu is a viras. it completely rewrites your genetic structure and makes
you a different creature.>>


Correct. HMHVV is what they call a phage virus (not a bacteriophage since
it doesn't prey on bacteria, probably a cytophage if they use such a
name), more specifically, it's a retrovirus, it's the kind of thing they
use in the book "Xenocide" by Orson Scott Card, where a sort of super
retrovirus is used to rewrite the genetic code of a group of people who
have been genectically manipulated for the sake of the Hegemony.



<<This extends into the realm of cyberware. It may have been part of the
original creatures "essence", but it is not part of teh genetic code, and
that is what I would assume the regeneration of the creature is based
on.>>


I'd even go so far as to say that much of the cyber doesn't work any
longer (things like eyes, ears, muscles, smartlinks, datajacks, etc,
etc). Stuff that doesn't actually involve any interaction with the
person's body chemistry or cellular functions (specifically Dermal
Plating) would continue to work, since it's function isn't going to be
impeded by an altered biochemistry. Spurs and razors would also continue
to work.



<<I'd assume a Vamp wakes up with 1 point of essence initially, if that.
thus the need to feed. So if the character has more than .99 points of
cyberware, then the vamp wakes up, and dies from essence loss.>>


Actually, he 'wakes up' with 0 Essence, Essence that the character
doesn't have available to drain (like the Essence invested in cyber)
can't be drained: it's not there. So, if a vamp drains all your Essence,
you're still going to be infected (excepting a Strain 1 infected Dwarf),
because they can't drain any more Essence than you've got. Also, if a
vampire can only drain a minimum of 1 point of Essence, if the samurai
has less than one point, is he immune to Essence Drain? Or does the vamp
drain his .1 Essence and get nothing? Also, what happens when tries
draining a cyberzombie? Does he [the vamp] wind up losing Essence to the
zombie? An interesting thought (especially if you've decided to allow a
character to use one or the other of those two:)...



<<Cyberware throws that balance all out of whack.>>


I'll agree here. Giving a character a vampire (lots o' powers + magic)
and access to cyber is a bad combo. Option: Limit the vamp's max Essence
to 12 - the Essence cost of any cyber they have, reduce for bioware
accordingly.



<<Agreed. And I think that even more than the rejeneratin, Bioware would
be subject to biorejection.

Bioware needs to be specifically taylored to a person so that the body
will accept it. Other wise, the body will reject it and you could die.

In a Vampire, since the DNA code was rewritten, the bioware prbably won't
hold, and get rejected, thus actuivating the bodies regeneration
abilities...>>


Actually, since the HMHVV retrovirus rewrites the DNA code in all of the
vampire's cells, the DNA in the bioware would also be re-written to
accommodate this. Option: you could rule that this renders all bioware
normal and thus no longer grants any bonuses.

I can't conscienably give either vamps or shapers automatic biorejection
(I'm also against doing things that don't necessarily jive with how I
think things work:), although: since I don't reduce Essence for bioware,
here's my idea: all dual-natured creatures and vampires (since they are
not automatically dual-natured) have a Magic rating, irregardless of
whether or not they are capable of any magic outside those of the special
powers they possess. When this Magic Rating is reduced to zero (either
from the implantation of bioware, or from Magic loss from Deadly wounds,
surgery, stim-patches, whatever), the critter loses _all_ powers that
they possess. Weaknesses that the character possesses are not affected.
Shapeshifter's are left stuck in whatever form they have, are no longer
dual-natured, but still possess the vulnerability and allergy to silver,
as well as the bestial nature which tends to define their race. Vampires
lose all powers they possess, but keep their allergies, Essence Loss and
vulnerabilities (that's right, they'd continue to lose Essence until they
die <EGMG>)

Critters can keep ahead of this kind of thing the same way magicians do:
initiation. It works the same way, except that dual natured critters,
being closer to the astral pulse (though not as close as freebies), can
self-initiate at the same rate as a normal group initiation (note: I
wouldn't apply this to vamps, or to critter magicians, since they'll be
getting a heck of a lot more out of initiation). A critter could get
access to some metamagic at the GM's discretion (for instance, Masking,
centering against drain for critters with Flame Projection or other
powers which cause drain, etc, but probably not Dispelling, Anchoring,
etc).

I'd consider that last part most dubious:) Probably do critter initiation
same as normal, except skipping Grade 0, not giving any metamagic
(possible exceptions: Masking, limited Centering and Shielding) and not
allowing most ordeals (might allow Deed, Asceticism, Meditation).

--
-Canthros, fool at large
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 16
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:28:05 -0500
At 03-Aug-97 wrote John E Pederson:


>Actually, he 'wakes up' with 0 Essence, Essence that the character
>doesn't have available to drain (like the Essence invested in cyber)
>can't be drained: it's not there. So, if a vamp drains all your Essence,
>you're still going to be infected (excepting a Strain 1 infected Dwarf),
>because they can't drain any more Essence than you've got. Also, if a
>vampire can only drain a minimum of 1 point of Essence, if the samurai
>has less than one point, is he immune to Essence Drain? Or does the vamp
>drain his .1 Essence and get nothing? Also, what happens when tries
>draining a cyberzombie? Does he [the vamp] wind up losing Essence to the
>zombie? An interesting thought (especially if you've decided to allow a
>character to use one or the other of those two:)...

He will drain the .1 essence and get nothing.
And at zero they are immune, nothing left to drain, but they still can be
killed in they process of trying from the vamp.


>I'll agree here. Giving a character a vampire (lots o' powers + magic)
>and access to cyber is a bad combo. Option: Limit the vamp's max Essence
>to 12 - the Essence cost of any cyber they have, reduce for bioware
>accordingly.

Better make it max essence to double the essence before transformation.
It fits better IMO since the max for the uncybered vamp is double
the normal six.

Our house rule:
Not all vamps are mages, they only had the magic abilities they had before.
Any magicpotential they develope during the transformation starts at
zero and must developed to be usefull.
Magic rating will stay at the original essence value until its raised
by initiation. It will not raise to the double essence.
If the vamp losses essence enough to drop under his magicrating then
his magicrating will drop too, but this will heal itself a rate of 1 per day,
to its original value.




>-Canthros, fool at large
As we are all at different times.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 17
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:28:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-03 06:33:46 EDT, barbie@**********.COM writes:

> >Actually, he 'wakes up' with 0 Essence, Essence that the character
> >doesn't have available to drain (like the Essence invested in cyber)
> >can't be drained: it's not there. So, if a vamp drains all your Essence,
> >you're still going to be infected (excepting a Strain 1 infected Dwarf),
> >because they can't drain any more Essence than you've got. Also, if a
> >vampire can only drain a minimum of 1 point of Essence, if the samurai
> >has less than one point, is he immune to Essence Drain? Or does the vamp
> >drain his .1 Essence and get nothing? Also, what happens when tries
> >draining a cyberzombie? Does he [the vamp] wind up losing Essence to the
> >zombie? An interesting thought (especially if you've decided to allow a
> >character to use one or the other of those two:)...
>
> He will drain the .1 essence and get nothing.
> And at zero they are immune, nothing left to drain, but they still can be
> killed in they process of trying from the vamp.

Oops, this is a blurb IIRC. Though the Vampire gets nothing, the Street
Samurai sure as hell does. He gets to meet death up front. Think about it.
If a Vampire can drain a Samurai, or anyone with partial essence loss
regions, then what is going to be happening here? Sure the Vampire gets a
taste of what s/he could have had, but it would be like a teaser or a taste
tempter.

> >I'll agree here. Giving a character a vampire (lots o' powers + magic)
> >and access to cyber is a bad combo. Option: Limit the vamp's max Essence
> >to 12 - the Essence cost of any cyber they have, reduce for bioware
> >accordingly.
>
> Better make it max essence to double the essence before transformation.
> It fits better IMO since the max for the uncybered vamp is double
> the normal six.
>
> Our house rule:

<snipped the house rule stuff>

I would have to agree with the rules of not beyond the double whatever.
Effectively, the "6" is the basis to be doubled. If the "6" is
reduced in
some fashion, then the double should be reduced from that point. However, I
would also advise dropping the fractional essence like you would for magic.
Having a 5 vs. a 5.5 can be a lot of difference for those resistance rolls
(10 vs. 11).

> >-Canthros, fool at large
> As we are all at different times. (Barbie)
>
Hey, I resemble that remark...
-Keith
Message no. 18
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:14:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-03 02:07:55 EDT, lobo1@****.COM writes:

>
> I don't know, works for me. And with what Keith mentioned (I'm assuming
> that as your Essence Rating drops, your Magic drops and you pick up geasa
> accrodingly) I'd say that it's about as balanced as it gets (although
> with vamps, that's a debatable point:)
>
>
That is the basic idea, but we took it to an entirely new level here. We
counted it as if -ALL- of the magicians magic had been "sent into discord",
and thus had to pick up three geasa, one per two whole points initially lost.
Initiating himself out of -THAT- hole was kind of fun. Now when he began to
argue that a Vampire has a "potential max" of 12, the geasa argument went
into a full blazing bonfire mode.
-Keith
Message no. 19
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:16:34 -0500
At 03-Aug-97 wrote J. Keith Henry:


>Oops, this is a blurb IIRC. Though the Vampire gets nothing, the Street
>Samurai sure as hell does. He gets to meet death up front. Think about it.
> If a Vampire can drain a Samurai, or anyone with partial essence loss
>regions, then what is going to be happening here? Sure the Vampire gets a
>taste of what s/he could have had, but it would be like a teaser or a taste
>tempter.

Agree here.
Freshly born vamp dies of esssence loss, because all people he lay
his hands one are down to under one essence. Hehehe.


>> >-Canthros, fool at large
>> As we are all at different times. (Barbie)
>>
>Hey, I resemble that remark...

I`m sure someone more importend then I had saied it long ago.
It was only the subcuncios(sp?) mind that spoke from deep with in me.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 20
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:16:07 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-02 18:58:47 EDT, you write:

> The thing you have to keep in mind here though is taht, going along with
> the Vampire thread from a little while ago, the vampire is a completely
> different creature than it was as a human, right down to cellular
> structure. HMHVV isn't a viras in the same way that VITAS or a Flu is a
> viras. it completely rewrites your genetic structure and makes you a
> different creature.

You're right, it's not. That was part of my reasoning on regeneration based
on the aura template concept, primarily because IIRC HMHVV was exceptionally
rare to nonexistent before the Awakening, and is thus magically active.
That's why IMHO cyberware retention makes sense.

> Another thing to keep in mind is that Vampires wake up "Hungry". I would
> assume this means they have very little natural essence, and thus have to
> drain essence right away. Chances are, if you assume vamps keep their
> cyberware, and you subtract that from whatever their current essence is
> (Since it fluctuates so much), then Cybered characters simply can't be
> vampires, unless they only had the most minimal of cyberware.
>
> I'd assume a Vamp wakes up with 1 point of essence initially, if that.
> thus the need to feed. So if the character has more than .99 points of
> cyberware, then the vamp wakes up, and dies from essence loss.

From what I understand, and this may be a ruling based on what Tom Dowd told
my GM-type being, any character with at least 1 point of essence can contract
HMHVV, simply because below one point, a vamp can't gain sustenance from the
person. I see the fact that a vamp wakes up hungry as the fact that HMHVV
effectively doubles the character's normal essence, but the essence they have
is that of a normal human, so the hunger results from a necessity to "tank
up", so to speak.

> This is a rule I can agree on, probably.
>
> The biggest reason I limited the character to no cyber initialy was
because
> I wanted to create a character that was somewhat balanced and could be
used
> in a starting level campaign. The vamp, with it's powers and stuff, could
> possibly start more powerful than other starting characters, but between
> his weaknesses and the problems that come with Vampirism sort of balance
> that out, if the GM takes advantage of it.
>
> Cyberware throws that balance all out of whack.

Oh, that's TOTALLY understandable, I was mainly referring to existing
characters contracting it. Sorry, should have pointed that out. For
characters who want to have cyber on the rationale that "s/he had it before
s/he contracted the virus", point out that a hungry vamp is infinitely more
likely to go after the innocent with no cyber whatsoever than the
chromed-out-the-ass street sam simply for nourishment reasons, never mind the
difficulty of obtaining the snack!

> >Regeneration is NOT the same as Biorejection, and that is also something
to
> >be considered.
> >
> Agreed. And I think that even more than the rejeneratin, Bioware would be
> subject to biorejection.
>
> Bioware needs to be specifically taylored to a person so that the body
will
> accept it. Other wise, the body will reject it and you could die.

Couple of things on this one. Only cultured bioware is genetically tailored
to a person, the rest uses bioreject-supressing drugs until the body accepts
the bioware. I could possibly concede rejection of non-cultured, but it'd be
rough from my standpoint. The other thing is, I'm not sure what the
physiological state of a vamp is. Are they the traditional undead, or do they
retain a heartbeat and all that jazz? If they are indeed in an, to put it
scientifically, "physiologically arrested state", or have no lifesigns or
internal functions, then there's no way bioware would work on them anyways.
Adrenal pumps don't do any good without a blood flow. Rare examples of what
would work are orthoskin and (possibly) muscle augmentation. If they're
actually undead, then it doesn't really matter much if they've got bioware,
'cause 90% of it won't work.

Wolfstar
Message no. 21
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:16:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-03 02:09:26 EDT, you write:

> Wrongo, Wolfy-boy:) Shapers can't get _cyber_ because it will be regen'd
> out next time they shift into animal form. According to the most recent
> info on shapers (SR Companion), they don't regen in human form (well, PC
> shapers don't.

That's Wolf-MAN to you, chummer... =) We went the other way on that one, but
scaled back overall regen for shapers. The Tom Dowd, very much pre-Companion
(and possibly pre-SRII) ruling was that shapers could get cyber, but could
never shapeshift again, because it would cause an instant and painful death.
Although I do agree that the "NPCs Regen, PCs don't" rule was really cheddar,
from a continuity standpoint. Then again, shapers as PCs is pretty cheddar in
and of itself, and you can do hideous things with a shaper PhysMage with a
Magic attribute of 8....

<Snip rant on regeneration....>

> In any case, the restriction only applies to cyberware, and
> they don't regen in human form. Bioware isn't noted and could probably be
> implanted while the character was in human form, but it would probably
> need to be cultured, and it might not work while the character was in
> animal form.

As I stated, regen rules are Cheddar. Regardless, has no bearing on vamps,
since they DO regen at all times. As I don't have SRComp available, I'm kinda
down for the count on discussing shapers and bio/cyberware.

Wolfstar

PS: Powergamer? I dunno, do you play Palladium? =)
Message no. 22
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:17:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-03 11:31:36 EDT, you write:

> > He will drain the .1 essence and get nothing.
> > And at zero they are immune, nothing left to drain, but they still can
be
> > killed in they process of trying from the vamp.
>
> Oops, this is a blurb IIRC. Though the Vampire gets nothing, the Street
> Samurai sure as hell does. He gets to meet death up front. Think about
it.
> If a Vampire can drain a Samurai, or anyone with partial essence loss
> regions, then what is going to be happening here? Sure the Vampire gets a
> taste of what s/he could have had, but it would be like a teaser or a
taste
> tempter.

AFAIK, vampires can actually determine if you have enough essence to nourish
them much like a dog can determine if the food in the dish is food by
smelling it. We play so that any character with less than one full point of
essence is ignored by a vampire until you aggravate it.

Wolfstar
Message no. 23
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:04:32 EDT
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:14:55 -0400 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:


<<That is the basic idea, but we took it to an entirely new level here.
We counted it as if -ALL- of the magicians magic had been "sent into
discord", and thus had to pick up three geasa, one per two whole points
initially lost. Initiating himself out of -THAT- hole was kind of fun.
Now when he began to argue that a Vampire has a "potential max" of 12,
the geasa argument went into a full blazing bonfire mode.>>

Ewwww. Not nice at all. I like it:) Yet another idea to tuck away for a
rainy day...


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 24
From: Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:23:01 PDT
<snip, snip; "Curses! I hate dull scissors!> 8)
>Although I do agree that the "NPCs Regen, PCs don't" rule was really
cheddar,
>from a continuity standpoint. Then again, shapers as PCs is pretty
cheddar in
>and of itself, and you can do hideous things with a shaper PhysMage
with a
>Magic attribute of 8....
>
><Snip rant on regeneration....>
>
>> In any case, the restriction only applies to cyberware, and
>> they don't regen in human form. Bioware isn't noted and could
probably be
>> implanted while the character was in human form, but it would
probably
>> need to be cultured, and it might not work while the character was
in
>> animal form.
>
> As I stated, regen rules are Cheddar. Regardless, has no bearing on
vamps,
>since they DO regen at all times. As I don't have SRComp available, I'm
kinda
>down for the count on discussing shapers and bio/cyberware.
>
> Wolfstar
>
>PS: Powergamer? I dunno, do you play Palladium? =)
>
<HEY, I like Juicers... 8)>


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Message no. 25
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:02:12 EDT
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:16:23 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<<That's Wolf-MAN to you, chummer... =)>>


Doesn't such an assertation prove my point? ;)


<<We went the other way on that one, but scaled back overall regen for
shapers. The Tom Dowd, very much pre-Companion (and possibly pre-SRII)
ruling was that shapers could get cyber, but could never shapeshift
again, because it would cause an instant and painful death.>>


A little implausible, regen should be able to compensate for wounds cause
by non-neural cyber, and stuff that wasn't majorly invasive, so long as
you don't get rid of it all at once. (note: the most painful way to kill
a shaper (excepting the idea of replacing his entire groin with a hunk of
chrome): knock him out and implant a cyberskull <EGMG>)


<<Although I do agree that the "NPCs Regen, PCs don't" rule was really
cheddar, from a continuity standpoint.>>


I just don't like having double standards. Even noticed how the Running
Multipliers for NPCs are one point higher than for PCs? I don't
particularly like that, either.


<<Then again, shapers as PCs is pretty cheddar in and of itself, and you
can do hideous things with a shaper PhysMage with a Magic attribute of
8....>>


Yes and no. First, there's justifying it, though I can probably see this
before a full magician shaper. Second, there's the truly obscene amount
of BP's you'd have to spend to get that (or the priorities). Unless
you're making them the same as metas (which I certainly wouldn't advise,
especially if you're using the More metas rule), critter magicians are
going to be quite weak in every area. I've done some playing with this
stuff and the character (though powerful) is going to be running low on
skills, attributes, money (compared to a normal character, for this type
of character, they're probably running right on for resources), and
probably spells, since they'll want to sell some of those Force points
back to get some attribute and skill points. Things are a bit worse in
the Priorities system, since they wind up sacrificing the top two
priorities for Race and Magic, and then wind up with little or nothing in
the way of skills, especially if you want them to have a range of skills,
which I would (but then, I was never much for combat monsters after the
initial intro).



<<As I stated, regen rules are Cheddar. Regardless, has no bearing on
vamps, since they DO regen at all times. As I don't have SRComp
available, I'm kinda down for the count on discussing shapers and
bio/cyberware.>>


You might want to get it, as it is one very big loophole for munchy-types
to exploit (or for GM's to abuse;)


<<PS: Powergamer? I dunno, do you play Palladium? =)>>

No, I don't play AD&D either, though I've given some thought to both
(Rifts, for instance, sounds like fun:) and AD&D could be good for a pure
fantasy hack-and-slash game, though I'll go for ED if want something with
some RP emphasis:) About the only games I've played outside SR are Toon
(would *love* to play that again:), and less than an hour each of Vampire
and D&D (and I wouldn't all it playing D&D, more like faking it)


--
-Canthros (roleplayer with powergamer tendencies and GMing experience)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 26
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:33:56 -0700
---Bull wrote:
>
> Ok, you're are correct... I found him in there... (Never really
read the
> module that well, just played it, and we never ran into hi...)
>
> However, the character is mre than just a little "off". i mean,
he's got a
> damned Quickness of 30! And a Magic Rating of 10, without
initiating??

The magic of 10 probably stems from the Magic=Essence idea.

The quickness of 30 I think is a typo where they factored in the x3
running multiplier. His Quickness would probably factor out to 10 with
enhanced physical attributes.

As for the cyberware, I agree that it should just be dropped from the
NPC all together.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
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Message no. 27
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:55:53 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-02 07:54:05 EDT, you write:

<< According to Tom Dowd, a person infected with HMHVV keeps their cyberware
after the transformation is complete. The reason for this is the same one
that allows a mage with cybereyes to cast spells - they paid the Essence for
them. Also, normally when HMHVV is contracted (at least with humans, I dunno
about the other metas) the vampire's essence is doubled, so in the case of a
vamp with one essence, they have 5 essence worth of cyber and 2 remaining
essence points. From what I gather, the essence cost is spent to make the
cyber an integral part of the person's being on all levels, so HMHVV won't
expel the cyber, because the cyber is as much a part of you as your stomach.
>>

How long ago did Tom Dowd say this? I ask because, when the SR2 BBB came out,
and the question was asked, Dowd said just the opposite (that a vamp loses
its cyberware.

Of course, Dowd was always one to flip flop on subjects, such as the question
as to if wired reflexess could be removed or not. (It was answered in
Cybertech)

-Bandit
Message no. 28
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:32:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-04 16:52:14 EDT, you write:

> >PS: Powergamer? I dunno, do you play Palladium? =)
> >
> <HEY, I like Juicers... 8)>

Ummm, expect some comments on over-quoting. As to juicers, they're amusing,
but have you seen what a conversion of a juicer to SR looks like? I did one
once, and promptly decided that the bio-comp thing-a-ma-jig cost 5 essence at
delta-grade, 'cause a juicer with wired reflexes is purely obscene. I'll see
if I can dig up the conversion and post it for people's, ah, enightenment.

Wolfstar
Message no. 29
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:02:16 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-04 21:05:23 EDT, you write:

> <<We went the other way on that one, but scaled back overall regen for
> shapers. The Tom Dowd, very much pre-Companion (and possibly pre-SRII)
> ruling was that shapers could get cyber, but could never shapeshift
> again, because it would cause an instant and painful death.>>
>
> A little implausible, regen should be able to compensate for wounds cause
> by non-neural cyber, and stuff that wasn't majorly invasive, so long as
> you don't get rid of it all at once. (note: the most painful way to kill
> a shaper (excepting the idea of replacing his entire groin with a hunk of
> chrome): knock him out and implant a cyberskull <EGMG>)

I think he was referencing such nasties as Wired Reflexes and the like. The
ruling was first edition pre-Shadowtech. I like the cyberskull though.

> <<Although I do agree that the "NPCs Regen, PCs don't" rule was
really
> cheddar, from a continuity standpoint.>>
>
> I just don't like having double standards. Even noticed how the Running
> Multipliers for NPCs are one point higher than for PCs? I don't
> particularly like that, either.

Ignored it. That's a minor thing. What bugs me is the concept of a PC shaper
who don't regenerate in human and his NPC twin brother who does. Can you say,
"I don't think so"?

> <<Then again, shapers as PCs is pretty cheddar in and of itself, and you
> can do hideous things with a shaper PhysMage with a Magic attribute of
> 8....>>
>
> Yes and no. First, there's justifying it, though I can probably see this
> before a full magician shaper. Second, there's the truly obscene amount
> of BP's you'd have to spend to get that (or the priorities). Unless
> you're making them the same as metas (which I certainly wouldn't advise,
> especially if you're using the More metas rule)
<snip rant on shapers and chargen>

Actually, we use a more-metas type setup. Humans are 0, basic metas(dwarf,
elf, ork, troll) are 5, advanced metas(Shapers and alternates in SRComp) are
10. So, you're looking at 30 points for a shaper physmage. Kinda skimpy, but
we also restrict shapers to a max 4/5/6 for
skills/concentrations/specializations, simply because they lose an important
number of years in the development stage, and they also have to decide
whether or not they want to leave their animal life. Everything balances in
the wash. We stopped using the priority system for the most part.

> <<As I stated, regen rules are Cheddar. Regardless, has no bearing on
> vamps, since they DO regen at all times. As I don't have SRComp
> available, I'm kinda down for the count on discussing shapers and
> bio/cyberware.>>
>
> You might want to get it, as it is one very big loophole for munchy-types
> to exploit (or for GM's to abuse;)

I know, my friend has it, and we usually do the community book thing - works
well after he gave me most of his SR books 'cause it was "unlikely he'd ever
need them again", which of course was followed by a rampant interest in
Shadowrun developing. =)

> <<PS: Powergamer? I dunno, do you play Palladium? =)>>
>
> No, I don't play AD&D either, though I've given some thought to both
> (Rifts, for instance, sounds like fun:) and AD&D could be good for a pure
> fantasy hack-and-slash game, though I'll go for ED if want something with
> some RP emphasis:) About the only games I've played outside SR are Toon
> (would *love* to play that again:), and less than an hour each of Vampire
> and D&D (and I wouldn't all it playing D&D, more like faking it)

Vampire is good, I play live action every month. AD&D is blech IMHO, and
Rifts? Well, lets just say that an adult dragon in Rifts would eat Dunkelzahn
for lunch, and the power scale doesn't change much on it's way down. Cool
universe though, and SR characters would have the edge in spades against just
about anyone but a borg in hand to hand, but put a norm in body armor and
those runners are screwed.

Wolfstar
Message no. 30
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:21:06 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-05 13:10:38 EDT, you write:

> How long ago did Tom Dowd say this? I ask because, when the SR2 BBB came
> out,
> and the question was asked, Dowd said just the opposite (that a vamp loses
> its cyberware.
>
> Of course, Dowd was always one to flip flop on subjects, such as the
> question
> as to if wired reflexess could be removed or not. (It was answered in
> Cybertech)

First Edition, I believe, during a dispute where a friend's party ran into a
heavily cybered vamp.

Wolfstar
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:43:04 +0100
George Metz said on 16:02/ 5 Aug 97...

> > I just don't like having double standards. Even noticed how the Running
> > Multipliers for NPCs are one point higher than for PCs? I don't
> > particularly like that, either.
>
> Ignored it. That's a minor thing.

It's most likely an oversight -- in SR1, all running multipliers were 1
point higher than those given in the Combat chapter of SRII; they were
adjusted for SRII, but I think someone just forgot to alter those on the
critter table.

> What bugs me is the concept of a PC shaper who don't regenerate in human
> and his NPC twin brother who does. Can you say, "I don't think so"?

What do you know? I can! :) Regeneration has always bugged me for the
reason that it's instant and complete; I haven't used a regenerating
critter/NPC in three or four years in situations where the power may come
into play, but I've been long planning to let the critter roll a Body (4)
or Essence (4) test (perhaps plus wound modifiers, I haven't decided
yet), and then heal a number of boxes of damage equal to the number of
successes. That cuts down on the heal rate while still making the critter
pretty hard to kill; this house rule would also apply equally to PC and
NPC shapeshifters.

To get back to the fact that PCs must change back to animal form to heal,
I'd simply say that they can heal in human form too, mainly since NPC
shapeshifters can do that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 32
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:46:00 GMT
on 03.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> and painful death. Although I do agree that the "NPCs Regen, PCs don't"
W> rule was really cheddar, from a continuity standpoint. Then again, shapers
W> as PCs is pretty cheddar in and of itself, and you can do hideous things
W> with a shaper PhysMage with a Magic attribute of 8....

Well, if the GM let's you play a shapeshifter/Physmage, he should be
cooked and eaten anyway. Right now, my GM and I are creating special rules
for my werepanther/phyad. One of the nicer ones is this: If the shifter
gets hurt, he rolls a willpower test against the number of damage-boxes
(All boxes! Physical and stun! Target modificators apply) plus one. If he
has no succsesses, the shifts into animal form. Talking 'bout shifting: If
he shifts, he has to make a willpower(4) test (again, all TM apply). If s/
he doesn't get it, the char goes berserk. The WCS would be a willpower(25)
test to stay in humanform and a willpower(10) test to keep control (O.K.,
this is not very likely to happen, but you get the idea)
You might say that this saves the shifter when he takes lots of damage, as
he will regenerate when he shifts, but don't forget the reaction of your
average runner-team when one of their pals (that was strange all the time)
suddenly turns into an animal. With a bit of luck and some easy-to-scare
and trigger-happy PCs, your shifter might end up, being shot by both
sides. And he does not have any firearms. Surprise!

bye

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 33
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:15:05 EDT
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:02:16 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

> I think he was referencing such nasties as Wired Reflexes and the
>like. The
>ruling was first edition pre-Shadowtech.


Ah, but you didn't _say_ that. :)


>Ignored it. That's a minor thing. What bugs me is the concept of a PC
>shaper
>who don't regenerate in human and his NPC twin brother who does. Can
>you say,
>"I don't think so"?


Yes, and I did, rather quickly. So, no shaper regens in human form in my
game. I'm even working on some adaptations of the regen rules in the
Companion for a house rule.


><snip rant on shapers and chargen>

Eh? What? A rant? That wasn't a rant, I was just rambling:) Rants are
much longer and a very unfriendly tone to them:)


<<Actually, we use a more-metas type setup. Humans are 0, basic
metas(dwarf, elf, ork, troll) are 5, advanced metas(Shapers and
alternates in SRComp) are 10. So, you're looking at 30 points for a
shaper physmage. Kinda skimpy, but we also restrict shapers to a max
4/5/6 for skills/concentrations/specializations, simply because they lose
an important number of years in the development stage, and they also have
to decide whether or not they want to leave their animal life. Everything
balances in the wash. We stopped using the priority system for the most
part.>>


Hate to break this to you, but the points system already *is* set up for
More Metas. If you want to use it with normal priorities, up the cost for
metahuman races to 20 BPs instead of 10. This matches up with the way the
Magic priority costs are setup (20 for full magician, 15 for adepts).


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 34
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:56:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 16:45:05 EDT, you write:

> Hate to break this to you, but the points system already *is* set up for
> More Metas. If you want to use it with normal priorities, up the cost for
> metahuman races to 20 BPs instead of 10. This matches up with the way the
> Magic priority costs are setup (20 for full magician, 15 for adepts).

Actually, if it wasn't for the objections of some of my friends, and just
eliminate race as a priority and allow people to pick their race(with it
still costing points for shapers, of course =) ). I understand why they do it
this way, but it's a wee bit silly when most of your players are good
players. Race as a costing priority is a failsafe manuever to keep munchkins
and powergamers from going nuts and building (meta)human tanks.

Wolfstar
Message no. 35
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 4: Vamp 2.0
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:10:14 EDT
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:56:42 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<<Actually, if it wasn't for the objections of some of my friends, and
just eliminate race as a priority and allow people to pick their
race(with it still costing points for shapers, of course =) ). I
understand why they do it this way, but it's a wee bit silly when most of
your players are good players. Race as a costing priority is a failsafe
manuever to keep munchkins and powergamers from going nuts and building
(meta)human tanks.>>


You could try the system in the Denver Sourcebook, where (I think, don't
have this book and have never looked inside it) the table had four levels
and didn't include race. I'll have to do some checking in my back logs,
I'll see what I can dig up (give me a few moments here...) Sorry, I can't
find it. You might check in the list archives from about 8 months or a
year ago I suppose.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

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