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Message no. 1
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 16:11:54 -0800
Thomas Frost Said:

>>How far are corporations allowed to go in protecting their turf? I
>>can envision orbiting platforms with hundreds of crowbar-sized
>>projectiles with minimal guidance systems, programmed to home in on a
>>particular laser signature. These things would be launched and
>>deorbited on command and impact the ground maybe forty minutes later
>>at a few miles per second, homing in on a laser light signal provided
>>by some rent-a-cop's "paint gun". (This was the late "Project
Thor"
>>in the SDI projects; see "Footfall" by Niven and Pournelle for a good
>>description of the effects.)

There is not enough lift capacity on Earth to get a large enough object into
space to use this tactic in SR. The idea of using large rocks dropped from
orbit is old (Heinlen used it in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress") but it requires
a way to get the rock into space. CP2020 had it happen, but they have a mass
driver on the moon. SR has no moonbase and no mass drivers.

===============================================================================
See Ya in Shadows, "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."
Jason J Carter -- Deep Throat, The X-Files
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU
Message no. 2
From: Aaron Wigley <wigs@****.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 11:27:57 +1100
Jason Carter, Nightstalker Wrote:
> There is not enough lift capacity on Earth to get a large enough object into
> space to use this tactic in SR.

Who says?

In 2050 we have Sub-orbital vehicles for common passenger transport,
presumably there is a big enough technology base for lifting objects
just that little bit further to low earth orbit.


The Wigs of Oz, "Welcome to the Sixth World, chummer.
Aaron Wigley It's going to be a heck of a ride."
Email: wigs@****.cc.monash.edu.au -Shadowrun II
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 12:53:18 +0930
>
>Thomas Frost Said:
>
>>>How far are corporations allowed to go in protecting their turf? I
>>>can envision orbiting platforms with hundreds of crowbar-sized
>>>projectiles with minimal guidance systems, programmed to home in on a
>>>particular laser signature. These things would be launched and
>>>deorbited on command and impact the ground maybe forty minutes later
>>>at a few miles per second, homing in on a laser light signal provided
>>>by some rent-a-cop's "paint gun". (This was the late "Project
Thor"
>>>in the SDI projects; see "Footfall" by Niven and Pournelle for a
good
>>>description of the effects.)
>
>There is not enough lift capacity on Earth to get a large enough object into
>space to use this tactic in SR. The idea of using large rocks dropped from
>orbit is old (Heinlen used it in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress") but it
requires
>a way to get the rock into space. CP2020 had it happen, but they have a mass
>driver on the moon. SR has no moonbase and no mass drivers.
>

How large do you think they need to be?? They have to be large enough (or
coming in fast enough) to not boil away on re-entry, true. But we can lift
things like Skylab into orbit. And when Skylab fell apart, several pieces fell
to ground, which were large enough to destroy, say, a building.

At a "few miles a second", let's call that 5 m/sec = 8000m/s. Give it an impact
mass of 1 kg, and the "crowbar" has kinetic energy = 64,000 megajoules. That's
about 64000 sticks of dynamite. Granted it's a little simplified, but as you
can see, it doesn't take much mass.

And where does it say SR has no moonbase? It has space stations, several in
fact. And it's no harder to go to the moon than it is to get to the space
stations.


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 4
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 21:35:51 -0600
>And where does it say SR has no moonbase? It has space stations, several in
>fact. And it's no harder to go to the moon than it is to get to the space
>stations.

I agree that they are perfectly feasible in Shadowrun. However, the moon is
farther away than the space stations, and I think it would be harder to
regularly traffic with. Not significantly so, but it is a different
experience.


J Roberson
Message no. 5
From: ANGLISS@****.PSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 23:03:09 -0400
The way I figure that Space is run in SR is kinda like CPs(Oops, said a dirty
word...) presented in Deep Space, or maybe a better version would be like
2001 with the moonbase and a few good sized stations that have shuttles to get
back and forth to each other and the Moon, and Sub-Orbitals fitted with an
extrabooster(mentioned in NAGRL) to get it to the Station. And what do you do
with
the booster? Ship it off with the next tug to help make the next station or
moonbase or carve it up into little peices and make Orbital Bombardment weapons.
Brian
Message no. 6
From: Thomas Frost <frost@******.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 09:26:04 -0500
> There is not enough lift capacity on Earth to get a large enough
> object into pace to use this tactic in SR.

How's that? This is something that could be done *today*, with 20th
century lift capacity.

> The idea of using large
> rocks dropped from orbit is old (Heinlen used it in "The Moon is a
> Harsh Mistress") but it requires a way to get the rock into space.

Note that I did not say "large rocks". I'm talking about
one-kilogram projectiles -- several at a time, but individually small.

> CP2020 had it happen, but they have a mass driver on the moon. SR
> has no moonbase and no mass drivers.

How do you know this? Just because it's not mentioned in the main
book or the sourcebooks?

I see no reason space exploration would have ground to a complete
halt. Indeed, given how toxic and dangerous the world of 2053 seems
to be, it seems likely a lot of wealthy corporations/persons would
build some sort of sanctuary in orbit (ala Freeside in _Neuromancer_).

Also note that Project Thor doesn't require the rocks to be dropped
from the Moon. Indeed, doing it that way gives a lot more warning to
the targets. Better (and easier) to do it from near-Earth orbit.

--
Spoken: Thomas (Frost) | "The rats eat the cats,
Smart: frost@******.umd.edu | the cats eat the rats,
Not smart: umiacs!frost | and we get the skins for free!"
Message no. 7
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 16:10:22 -0500
On Sun, 5 Dec 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> >And where does it say SR has no moonbase? It has space stations,....And it's no
harder to go to the moon than it is to get to the space
> >stations.
>

Actually it becomes easier to support a spacestation with a moonbase

However, the moon is
> farther away than the space stations, and I think it would be harder to
> regularly traffic with.

a space station quickly becomes economically unfeasable when supported
only from earth. look at the spacelab series/mir/our newest wish for a
station. first comes the station then the moonbase the moonbase while
extremely expensive in the begining could become almost completely self
supporting in time through the use of resources on the moon itself, the
asteroids, and other moons as things progress. in time not even water
would be needed from the earth
an excelent book on the subject is WELCOME TO MOONBASE by BEN BOVA it is
a balentines book - it is mostly all text but there are a few good
diagrams and artists conceptions. it treats the base as a thing that has
been built and you are making application to live and work on the
moon-the base is of course privately funded and profitable [read belongs
to the corps]
hope this has been helpful
----------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 8
From: "Brueggemann, Victor" <victorb@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 14:30:00 PST
>> The idea of using large
>> rocks dropped from orbit is old (Heinlen used it in "The Moon is a
>> Harsh Mistress") but it requires a way to get the rock into space.

There are some rocks in space already. Some of them are very large,
but they are farther away. If all else fails, you can throw solar panels,
spent booster stages, old orbital facilities, the odd comm satellite,
or whatever else we've left lying around up there between the late 1950's
and the 2050's.

> Also note that Project Thor doesn't require the rocks to be dropped
> from the Moon. Indeed, doing it that way gives a lot more warning to
> the targets. Better (and easier) to do it from near-Earth orbit.

If you are dropping rocks from the moon, make sure you're wearing
the requisite "heavy boots". >:)


On a more serious note, something weighing only a kilogram will probably
never reach the surface unless it is covered with lots of heat-shielding.
Message no. 9
From: Thomas Frost <frost@******.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 08:51:02 -0500
> > Also note that Project Thor doesn't require the rocks to be
> > dropped from the Moon. Indeed, doing it that way gives a lot more
> > warning to the targets. Better (and easier) to do it from
> > near-Earth orbit.
>
> On a more serious note, something weighing only a kilogram will
> probably never reach the surface unless it is covered with lots of
> heat-shielding.

Define "lots". 1 kg meteors reach the surface pretty well.

Make your crowbar pretty aerodynamic, surround it with a layer of
silica heat-shielding (or maybe aerogel), and put the brains in the
tail. Sensors are a problem, but not insurmountable.

--
Spoken: Thomas (Frost) | "The rats eat the cats,
Smart: frost@******.umd.edu | the cats eat the rats,
Not smart: umiacs!frost | and we get the skins for free!"
Message no. 10
From: Angus Chan <ak929@*******.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 20:40:12 -0500
I remember reading something about orbital bombardment from a sattilite in
another game - which they called a 'Thor Sattilite'. I believe it was in
Renegade Legion.

According to them, a spotter would be in the field and identify the location
of the targets he would like eliminated and send that info to the sat in
orbit. The GM would then roll to determine to see how long it would take for
it to be in location. Once there, the sattilite would release a twenty
meter, depleted uranium javelin and whamo - no more target - that is if
it hits. A javelin made of this stuff would definitely survive re-entry
and would reach terminal velocity alot quicker


I believe that very rarely it would strike the intended target(s), it would
usually get within a ten metre radius of it.

Anyway, the thought of putting one of these sats in orbit would be
extremely difficult to hide since to get the thing up there, it would have
to be LAUNCHED and that chummers is something that any corp could detect.

Angus Chan

--
-------------------------------------------------------
If you know yourself, but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.

Further Reading

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