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Message no. 1
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:17:47 +1000
About six to twelve months ago my brother and I were reading the bug city
sourcebook, and we came to the conclusion that a street samurai has
absolutely not way to hurt an insect spirit if its bigger than force 3-4....
depending on the type. Physical adepts and riggers are in a little better
situation because they can't do enough damage either.

Now this really sucks, becuase it's a mages-only show in that case, and
there aren't enough mages in the world to take on the hives... It also
renders most of the characters in the average team useless in a bug-hunt
or in Chicago.

The same problem exists for really big elementals; We originally
introduced the subject of this post as a bid to temporarily get rid of
one of the players Force 15 Earth elemental 'Brutus' (The thing had 30
armour against guns, for God's sake)

Basically we made up a litle thing called the orichalcum bullet. All it
does is negate a spirit's Immunity To Normal Weapons power. It gets no
other bonuses and cannot be re-used if you miss.

Orichalcum (Or.) is a good choice, because it *has* to go into every weapon
focus, and the more you put in, the easier it is to bond. Or. is a
magical alloy and cannot exist without significant magic, so we assumed
that it essentially has an astral presence (this raised further
interesting possibilities that I'll detail later.. maybe) The astral
presence and magical nature are what negates the spirit's Immunity.. Of
course, firing the bullet kind of fucks with the magic, which is why the
bullet is a one-shot wonder.

The bullet CAN hit astral targets..... making a phys. ad. with Astral
Perception very useful.

The method we came up with for making the bullets, is you get a unit of
Or. (10g) and split it into a number of batches which you alloy with
whatever metal you want to make the bullet out of (I would NOT suggest
D.U.) Make an Enchanting test and Firearms B/R test, each with a traget
equal to the number of bullets you wish to make from the unit of orichalcum
and if it succeeds, you've got your Orichalcum bullets. (Failure results
in loss of the unit)

I'd suggest limiting the type of ordnance that can use the bullets to
Pistols and SMG's... Maybe Shotguns with a plus to the TN (flechette
anyone?)... Definitely do NOT allow the players to make these things for
sniper rifles.

The average cost of each bullet will be in the range of 10,000 nuyen
each, so they won't be sprayed around aimlessly unless the players are
way too rich. I suggest getting a Ruger Super Warhawk and a street
sammie, and even then aiming up on the target if possible.

These things will need careful management, and I suggest that the GM use
them on the palyers at least once before the players are allowed to make
'em... that is, unless they are in bug city or something.

Be very careful; Mages in astral space are not immune to Phys. Adepts
with these things. Insect spirits have more manageable armour and
elementals have none.... It'd certainly help with that Wormskull that was
posted earlier, that's for sure.

Hope you guys like the idea.... FASAMike did
*grin*
(Shameless self-promotion)
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:40:52 -0800
At 03:17 10/16/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>Basically we made up a litle thing called the orichalcum bullet. All it
>does is negate a spirit's Immunity To Normal Weapons power. It gets no
>other bonuses and cannot be re-used if you miss.

Though I would expect it to be possible to retrieve the thing and go through
the same process of enchantment again, so as not to waste the orichalcum.

>Orichalcum (Or.) is a good choice, because it *has* to go into every weapon
>focus, and the more you put in, the easier it is to bond. Or. is a
>magical alloy and cannot exist without significant magic, so we assumed
>that it essentially has an astral presence.

Bear in mind that you just admitted the possibility of creating orichalcum-leaf
coatings as impenetrable astral barriers and orichalcum-alloy cyberspurs that
can defeat Immunity to Normal Weapons, not to mention reusable orichalcum-tipped
arrows.

> The astral
>presence and magical nature are what negates the spirit's Immunity.. Of
>course, firing the bullet kind of fucks with the magic, which is why the
>bullet is a one-shot wonder.

What about firing the bullet screws up the magic? I can certainly assume
that the bullet deforms by the time it hits something, thereby making it
impossible to reload it.

>The bullet CAN hit astral targets..... making a phys. ad. with Astral
>Perception very useful.

Or an Astral Adept with that hideous 14D sniper rifle from Fields of Fire...

>The method we came up with for making the bullets, is you get a unit of
>Or. (10g) and split it into a number of batches which you alloy with
>whatever metal you want to make the bullet out of (I would NOT suggest
>D.U.) Make an Enchanting test and Firearms B/R test, each with a traget
>equal to the number of bullets you wish to make from the unit of orichalcum
>and if it succeeds, you've got your Orichalcum bullets. (Failure results
>in loss of the unit)

I'd suggest introducing a base time of at least a week for that process.

>I'd suggest limiting the type of ordnance that can use the bullets to
>Pistols and SMG's... Maybe Shotguns with a plus to the TN (flechette
>anyone?)... Definitely do NOT allow the players to make these things for
>sniper rifles.

Why not? If you can make orichalcum bullets, why can't you make them for
sniper rifles? (I recall the bullets for the Big Sniper Rifle were hideously
large and expensive, so I'd increase the TN for making the things-- you need
more orichalcum, after all.) Remember, one of the important pieces of a game
world is consistency.

>The average cost of each bullet will be in the range of 10,000 nuyen
>each, so they won't be sprayed around aimlessly unless the players are
>way too rich.

You might want to simply specify that each bullet must possess a certain
amount of orichalcum at the minimum, thus making it impossible for someone
with huge skills and some karma for rerolls to make bullets cheaper...
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 3
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:20:47 +1000
> Though I would expect it to be possible to retrieve the thing and go through
> the same process of enchantment again, so as not to waste the orichalcum.
>

Yeah, well we thought about that too..... If it is possible, you'd have
to find the bullet first (not an easy task)... It'd have to be in one
piece as well. And also, anywhere that you're g0oing to use one of these
things isn't going to be the kind of place you want to hang around.

Then there's the question of *how* the bullet works... It may do its
damage by ripping holes in the aura of the target, and the orichalcum is
used up as it asborbs (or supplies) the energy of the aura. I mean,
firng a chunk of magical orichalcum can't be good for the magic.... It
may even turn them kind of 'toxic' for a while

Personally I'd make 'em one shot to stop the gold-diggers from saving too
much money.

> >Orichalcum (Or.) is a good choice, because it *has* to go into every weapon
> >focus, and the more you put in, the easier it is to bond. Or. is a
> >magical alloy and cannot exist without significant magic, so we assumed
> >that it essentially has an astral presence.
>
> Bear in mind that you just admitted the possibility of creating orichalcum-leaf
> coatings as impenetrable astral barriers and orichalcum-alloy cyberspurs that
> can defeat Immunity to Normal Weapons, not to mention reusable orichalcum-tipped
> arrows.
>
Yup... You hit almost all the high points. Didn't take you long.

The arrows are a problem, but you can just say that the enchantment
process makes 'em one shot only, because they use up their magic in the
attack.
The cyberspurs would probably work better as a weapon focus....
after all, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't (Not my style
though)

The orichalcum barriers would work too, if this is the case.... Makes a
lot more sense than FAB, if you ask me... though it is a bit expensive.

The other question which really makes me think, is what would happen if
you put a thin wire of orichalcum along the front of your car.... and then
ran though an astral person. Sounds ugly, hey?

There are some problems with the basic design system, but something has
to be done to give sammies an edge over spirits.

> > The astral
> >presence and magical nature are what negates the spirit's Immunity.. Of
> >course, firing the bullet kind of fucks with the magic, which is why the
> >bullet is a one-shot wonder.
>
> What about firing the bullet screws up the magic? I can certainly assume
> that the bullet deforms by the time it hits something, thereby making it
> impossible to reload it.
>

Yup, and the 'deformation' wouldn't be just physical... which would be
why you can't reuse the bullet.

> >The bullet CAN hit astral targets..... making a phys. ad. with Astral
> >Perception very useful.
>
> Or an Astral Adept with that hideous 14D sniper rifle from Fields of Fire...
>

Which is why we don't want sniper rifles to be able to use them.... make
up some bullshit excuse about the muzzle velocity being too great if you
have to.

> >D.U.) Make an Enchanting test and Firearms B/R test, each with a traget
> >equal to the number of bullets you wish to make from the unit of orichalcum
> >and if it succeeds, you've got your Orichalcum bullets. (Failure results
> >in loss of the unit)
>
> I'd suggest introducing a base time of at least a week for that process.
>

Yup... I forgot to put that bit in. A week was the time we came up with too.

> >I'd suggest limiting the type of ordnance that can use the bullets to
> >Pistols and SMG's... Maybe Shotguns with a plus to the TN (flechette
> >anyone?)... Definitely do NOT allow the players to make these things for
> >sniper rifles.
>
> Why not? If you can make orichalcum bullets, why can't you make them for
> sniper rifles? (I recall the bullets for the Big Sniper Rifle were hideously
> large and expensive, so I'd increase the TN for making the things-- you need
> more orichalcum, after all.) Remember, one of the important pieces of a game
> world is consistency.
>
Yeah, but as a player I really never want to be on the other end of one of
those things from a sniper rifle .... no armor in astral space, remember?

I'd really like a viable excuse as to why you can't use then in heavy
weapons.

> >The average cost of each bullet will be in the range of 10,000 nuyen
> >each, so they won't be sprayed around aimlessly unless the players are
> >way too rich.
>
> You might want to simply specify that each bullet must possess a certain
> amount of orichalcum at the minimum, thus making it impossible for someone
> with huge skills and some karma for rerolls to make bullets cheaper...

*grin* Why bother?? Even if you try and make fifty bullets, the cost is
still about 2000 nuyen each.... and you have to get that 50 on the
dice.... for BOTH the enchanting and Firearms B/R tests.


Bleach.
Message no. 4
From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:37:57 -0500
[Snip discussion about Orichalcum Bullets]

Boy, you guys are just asking for a world of hurt... Let me point out two
things here...

First, there is an extreme;y prohibitive cost factor. If Or. costs 88,000
Nuyen for an ounce, I would assume that you would need at least one ounce to
go into the bullet. Secondly, the bigger the bullet, the more expensive the
shell would have to be, thus increasing teh cost. A Panther Assault cannon
shell, for example, would probably require a minimum of 4-5 ounces of the
stuff...

Secondly, I would make the target numbers for creating such bullets and
whatever exceedingly high... This should not be an easy process, as this
can be hideously abusive (maybe helpful as well, but).

Ok, now i'd like to reply to comments from several of teh previous posts. I
have accidentally already deleted them, so can't quote them... Forgive me
if I screw up...:)

Ok, the original post talked about teh near impossibility of fighting
spirits, and specifically mentioned Bug City. He said that non-magical
types would be next to useless... Wrong. YOu forgot teh fleshforms, which
make up the majority of the bugs. Flesh forms are no longer true spirits,
and cannot de-manifest, and can be harmed quite easily by normal weapons and
bullets. Also, as long an actual true spirit is manifest, it *can* be
fought by anyone, magical or no. The combat just reverts to your willpower
then, rather than actual skill. Granted, you average cybergoon sammy has
minimal mental stats, usually, but it's still a chance. And the Spirits
have to manifest to effect the non-astrally active street sammy.

Also, amazingly enough, Insecticide works wonders on fleshforms and true
spirits alike... A little DDT and you're ready to rock and roll...:)

That help any? If not, then just ignore me...:):):)

-Bull-the-fought-more-damn-bugs-than-he-can-count-decker-turned-GM
Message no. 5
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:49:12 +1000
> First, there is an extreme;y prohibitive cost factor. If Or. costs 88,000
> Nuyen for an ounce, I would assume that you would need at least one ounce to
> go into the bullet. Secondly, the bigger the bullet, the more expensive the
> shell would have to be, thus increasing teh cost. A Panther Assault cannon
> shell, for example, would probably require a minimum of 4-5 ounces of the
> stuff...
>
Which is why I'd like to put a limit on the types of guns that can load them.
The cost of the individual round would be the biggest deterrent to
abuse.... They'd only get used in desperate situations.

> Secondly, I would make the target numbers for creating such bullets and
> whatever exceedingly high... This should not be an easy process, as this
> can be hideously abusive (maybe helpful as well, but).
>
Yeah, but so is alpha, beta or delta-grade cyberware, if you play it wrong.

> Ok, now i'd like to reply to comments from several of teh previous posts. I
> have accidentally already deleted them, so can't quote them... Forgive me
> if I screw up...:)
>
> Ok, the original post talked about teh near impossibility of fighting
> spirits, and specifically mentioned Bug City. He said that non-magical
> types would be next to useless... Wrong. YOu forgot teh fleshforms, which
> make up the majority of the bugs. Flesh forms are no longer true spirits,
> and cannot de-manifest, and can be harmed quite easily by normal weapons and
> bullets. Also, as long an actual true spirit is manifest, it *can* be
> fought by anyone, magical or no. The combat just reverts to your willpower
> then, rather than actual skill. Granted, you average cybergoon sammy has
> minimal mental stats, usually, but it's still a chance. And the Spirits
> have to manifest to effect the non-astrally active street sammy.
>
Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.

The flesh forms are a push-over, I grant you...and the smaller (force 1-3)
true forms are relaively easy, but even one big true-form spirit can waste
the entire party. I've seen it happen.

> Also, amazingly enough, Insecticide works wonders on fleshforms and true
> spirits alike... A little DDT and you're ready to rock and roll...:)
>
They're only vulnerable to the stuff... It may keep some of the spirits
from wanting to get close, but the lethal dose you'd need to off one of
the critters would be horrendous, and you can guarantee that they'd
attack though the insecticide if you threatened the hive, even if it killed
them.

Besides, DDT and the related insecticides are *almost* nerve gases... I
don't want to be anywhere near significant quantities of them..... Not in
real life and not as a player.

> That help any? If not, then just ignore me...:):):)
>
Helped a lot..... I hope I didn't shoot you down in flames too badly... I
love a good debate.

Please feel free to come back at me.

Bleach.
Message no. 6
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:15:54 +0000
On 15 Oct 96 at 10:40, Max Rible wrote:
[snip]
> > The astral
> >presence and magical nature are what negates the spirit's Immunity.. Of
> >course, firing the bullet kind of fucks with the magic, which is why the
> >bullet is a one-shot wonder.
>
> What about firing the bullet screws up the magic? I can certainly assume
> that the bullet deforms by the time it hits something, thereby making it
> impossible to reload it.
See Grimoire, p. 21 for the answer...

[snip: Just Pistols and SMG with Or. bullets]
> Why not? If you can make orichalcum bullets, why can't you make them for
> sniper rifles? (I recall the bullets for the Big Sniper Rifle were hideously
> large and expensive, so I'd increase the TN for making the things-- you need
> more orichalcum, after all.) Remember, one of the important pieces of a game
> world is consistency.
I agree. If you can make the thing for a pistol, you can do it for a rifle,
too. See also below...

> >The average cost of each bullet will be in the range of 10,000 nuyen
> >each, so they won't be sprayed around aimlessly unless the players are
> >way too rich.
> You might want to simply specify that each bullet must possess a certain
> amount of orichalcum at the minimum, thus making it impossible for someone
> with huge skills and some karma for rerolls to make bullets cheaper...
Maybe making this depended of the Power Niveau of the weapon, like "You can
makea maximum of (20-PN) bullets with one unit Or."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | "If we had to buy |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|you, you wouldn't be|
| \___ __/ | | worth the price." |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | - E. Weatherwax |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | (T. Pratchett)|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 7
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:15:39 -0800
At 05:20 10/16/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>Yeah, well we thought about that too..... If it is possible, you'd have
>to find the bullet first (not an easy task)... It'd have to be in one
>piece as well. And also, anywhere that you're g0oing to use one of these
>things isn't going to be the kind of place you want to hang around.

>Then there's the question of *how* the bullet works... It may do its
>damage by ripping holes in the aura of the target, and the orichalcum is
>used up as it asborbs (or supplies) the energy of the aura.

I'm not sure about orichalcum getting "used up"... but I could imagine
it suddenly degenerating from "orichalcum" to "alloy of gold, silver,
copper, and mercury" or whatever it is. (Contrary to a statement in
one of the Grimoires, you *can* alloy the metals, especially with so
much mercury involved. But without the enchantment process involved,
it won't be orichalcum any more.) That way you could retreive the
material and separate it out in an expensive process, but you'd still
need to go through the whole refining process again!

>Yup... You hit almost all the high points. Didn't take you long.

I've been playing Ars Magica for a long time. The magic system is structured
in such a way that you get a *lot* of practice figuring out the ramifications
of something before you say, "Yeah, I think you *can* do it with those
resources..."

> The cyberspurs would probably work better as a weapon focus....
>after all, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't (Not my style
>though)

You need to be magically active to bond a weapon focus, though.

>The orichalcum barriers would work too, if this is the case.... Makes a
>lot more sense than FAB, if you ask me... though it is a bit expensive.

It means that you no longer need to pay hideous amounts of money to get
a mage to sink karma (which they can't technically earn without running!)
into establishing barriers for you. You can just grow ivy all over your
building and set up armored doors with orichalcum in the very center in
an "airlock" arrangement, and you have excellent astral security.

>The other question which really makes me think, is what would happen if
>you put a thin wire of orichalcum along the front of your car.... and then
>ran though an astral person. Sounds ugly, hey?

Yep. Orichalcum bumpers!

>There are some problems with the basic design system, but something has
>to be done to give sammies an edge over spirits.

Not necessarily. There are some things where you really want to have
teamwork taking place. Like a mage sustaining a touch-range Personal
Anti-Spirit Barrier on the sammy while the sammy rips into the critter
with his Willpower, or something like that. (I don't have the sourcebooks
to check on the feasability of this, but I suspect you could make a
purpose-designed spell that kept a spirit from harming your flesh while
your weapon poked through the ward to hurt it...)

>> Or an Astral Adept with that hideous 14D sniper rifle from Fields of Fire...

>Which is why we don't want sniper rifles to be able to use them.... make
>up some bullshit excuse about the muzzle velocity being too great if you
>have to.

Why not? Just make the rounds a lot more expensive, in similar proportions
to how they are for the usual game. Two hundred nuyen a clip instead of
twenty nuyen a clip suggests you're spending 100,000 nuyen for a single
round. Sounds like a *great* way to make them spend more money.

>Yeah, but as a player I really never want to be on the other end of one of
>those things from a sniper rifle .... no armor in astral space, remember?

So who's going to spend 100,000 nuyen to geek your character like that when
they could pay a lot less and send a whole wetwork team after you?

>I'd really like a viable excuse as to why you can't use then in heavy
>weapons.

Price!
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 8
From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:46:39 -0500
>Which is why I'd like to put a limit on the types of guns that can load them.
>The cost of the individual round would be the biggest deterrent to
>abuse.... They'd only get used in desperate situations.
>
Ok, good... I was just trying to imagine my character Bull coming up with
enough bullets to make one cylindar for his Warhawk... Yeah, right, like
he'd ever be able to afford close over 500 grand...:)

>Yeah, but so is alpha, beta or delta-grade cyberware, if you play it wrong.
>
<nods> Yup... Of course, I have yet to see anyone in any of our games
actually get anything but basic cyber...:) But i was thinking from a GM's
point of view there... i know I would make them nearly impossible to get
ahold of...

>Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
>of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
>about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
>the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
>the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.
>
This is true... Hmmm, what do you do then... Oh yeah... (in a bad british
accent) RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

>The flesh forms are a push-over, I grant you...and the smaller (force 1-3)
>true forms are relaively easy, but even one big true-form spirit can waste
>the entire party. I've seen it happen.
>
Yeah, me too.... try fighting a force 30 Wasp Queen someday (and no, we
never even touched the thing... We ran like scared rabbits, after dropping
teh Ares building on it..:))

>> Also, amazingly enough, Insecticide works wonders on fleshforms and true
>> spirits alike... A little DDT and you're ready to rock and roll...:)
>>
>They're only vulnerable to the stuff... It may keep some of the spirits
>from wanting to get close, but the lethal dose you'd need to off one of
>the critters would be horrendous, and you can guarantee that they'd
>attack though the insecticide if you threatened the hive, even if it killed
>them.
>
>Besides, DDT and the related insecticides are *almost* nerve gases... I
>don't want to be anywhere near significant quantities of them..... Not in
>real life and not as a player.
>
Yup, fun stuff, ehh??? However, when it comes to bugs, I know Bull would
gladly carry the nuke if it would get rid of them,...:) But it won't..:(

>> That help any? If not, then just ignore me...:):):)
>>
>Helped a lot..... I hope I didn't shoot you down in flames too badly... I
>love a good debate.
>
>Please feel free to come back at me.
>
I did, nut not too many more points to make...:)

>Bleach.

-Bull
Message no. 9
From: Mike Alex <mra0118@******.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:09:43 -0600
>
> > First, there is an extreme;y prohibitive cost factor. If Or. costs 88,000
> > Nuyen for an ounce, I would assume that you would need at least one ounce to
> > go into the bullet. Secondly, the bigger the bullet, the more expensive the
> > shell would have to be, thus increasing teh cost. A Panther Assault cannon
> > shell, for example, would probably require a minimum of 4-5 ounces of the
> > stuff...
> >
> Which is why I'd like to put a limit on the types of guns that can load them.
> The cost of the individual round would be the biggest deterrent to
> abuse.... They'd only get used in desperate situations.
>
> > Secondly, I would make the target numbers for creating such bullets and
> > whatever exceedingly high... This should not be an easy process, as this
> > can be hideously abusive (maybe helpful as well, but).
> >

How about something like this? One unit of ori weighs 10g and
costs 88k nuyen. Each round requires 5g per base damage level (5g for
L -> 20g for D) with the enchanting/firearms(B/R) TN == (damage rating),
possibly allowing 1 success from each to produce one round (2 successes on
enchanting and 4 on the firearms yielding 2 rounds).

Using this, making light pistol rounds (6L) requires 1/2 a unit of
ori, and provides a TN of 6 for each test. Assuming at least 3 successes
on each test you get 3 rounds. However, making rounds for Big Nasty
Sniper Rifle (14D) requires 2 units of ori and a TN of 14. Ouch.


Mike Alex, mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu
"Resistance is futile, (if < 1 ohm)."
Message no. 10
From: IEngelmann@***.COM
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:12:54 -0400
>Which is why I'd like to put a limit on the types of guns that can load
them.
>The cost of the individual round would be the biggest deterrent to
>abuse.... They'd only get used in desperate situations.
>
Now that I don't get. You want to limit the type of guns that can load them,
because of the horrendeous costs?!?!?!
For me that's a SEP (Somebody Else's Problem)

>> Secondly, I would make the target numbers for creating such bullets and
>> whatever exceedingly high... This should not be an easy process, as this
>> can be hideously abusive (maybe helpful as well, but).
>>
>Yeah, but so is alpha, beta or delta-grade cyberware, if you play it wrong.
>
Right, anything can be abused. But... one thing comes to my mind. After
reading the "Informal Survey" posts I think most folk on this list and their
groups are experienced players. Is the danger of abuse such great?

>> Ok, now i'd like to reply to comments from several of teh previous posts.
>I
>> have accidentally already deleted them, so can't quote them... Forgive me
>> if I screw up...:)
>>
>> Ok, the original post talked about teh near impossibility of fighting
>> spirits, and specifically mentioned Bug City. He said that non-magical
>> types would be next to useless... Wrong. YOu forgot teh fleshforms,
which
>> make up the majority of the bugs. Flesh forms are no longer true spirits,
>> and cannot de-manifest, and can be harmed quite easily by normal weapons
>and
>> bullets. Also, as long an actual true spirit is manifest, it *can* be
>> fought by anyone, magical or no. The combat just reverts to your
willpower
>> then, rather than actual skill. Granted, you average cybergoon sammy has
>> minimal mental stats, usually, but it's still a chance. And the Spirits
>> have to manifest to effect the non-astrally active street sammy.
>>
No average guy survives long in Bug City!

>Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
>of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
>about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
>the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
>the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.
>
Only the very good and strong survive! :)
No serious, that's the point where the panther cannon come into play. Our GM
rules that with a real big gun like the panther or C12 or the like you can
always damage a spirit, not very well, but you can. I think that's a quite
useful rule. Of course the drawback is that that counts for the other side as
well.

>The flesh forms are a push-over, I grant you...and the smaller (force 1-3)
>true forms are relaively easy, but even one big true-form spirit can waste
>the entire party. I've seen it happen.
>
>> Also, amazingly enough, Insecticide works wonders on fleshforms and true
>> spirits alike... A little DDT and you're ready to rock and roll...:)
>>
>They're only vulnerable to the stuff... It may keep some of the spirits
>from wanting to get close, but the lethal dose you'd need to off one of
>the critters would be horrendous, and you can guarantee that they'd
>attack though the insecticide if you threatened the hive, even if it killed
>them.
>
>Besides, DDT and the related insecticides are *almost* nerve gases... I
>don't want to be anywhere near significant quantities of them..... Not in
>real life and not as a player.
>
I've heard something about EnviroSeal or something like that.

>> That help any? If not, then just ignore me...:):):)
>>
>Helped a lot..... I hope I didn't shoot you down in flames too badly... I
>love a good debate.
>
Yeah, me too.

>Please feel free to come back at me.
Dito!

Ilja Engelmann
Message no. 11
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:37:41 +1000
> [snip]
> > > The astral
> > >presence and magical nature are what negates the spirit's Immunity.. Of
> > >course, firing the bullet kind of fucks with the magic, which is why the
> > >bullet is a one-shot wonder.
> >
> > What about firing the bullet screws up the magic? I can certainly assume
> > that the bullet deforms by the time it hits something, thereby making it
> > impossible to reload it.
> See Grimoire, p. 21 for the answer...
>
I will, when i get access to the book.... which will be some time next
month. I currently have what you would euphenistically call a less than
complete shadwrun sourcebook collection.
In the mean-time, can you post a summary for all of us out here who
don't have immediate access to the text?

> I agree. If you can make the thing for a pistol, you can do it for a rifle,
> too. See also below...
>
Can-do and should-do are two different things. The biggest problem I
have with these things is that you can put the bastards in high-powered
weapons. The game balance would go right out of the window then.

> > >The average cost of each bullet will be in the range of 10,000 nuyen
> > >each, so they won't be sprayed around aimlessly unless the players are
> > >way too rich.
> > You might want to simply specify that each bullet must possess a certain
> > amount of orichalcum at the minimum, thus making it impossible for someone
> > with huge skills and some karma for rerolls to make bullets cheaper...
>
> Maybe making this depended of the Power Niveau of the weapon, like "You can
> makea maximum of (20-PN) bullets with one unit Or."
>
Still doesn't stop some power-freak from making half a dozen sniper rifle
bullets. Perhaps it should be some base target per number of bullets per
batch, plus the power level of the gun that it's going into. Kinda gives
rise to TN's of 16, though if you're trying to make ten light pistol bullets.
Message no. 12
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:51:41 +1000
> >Then there's the question of *how* the bullet works... It may do its
> >damage by ripping holes in the aura of the target, and the orichalcum is
> >used up as it asborbs (or supplies) the energy of the aura.
>
> I'm not sure about orichalcum getting "used up"... but I could imagine
> it suddenly degenerating from "orichalcum" to "alloy of gold, silver,
> copper, and mercury" or whatever it is. (Contrary to a statement in
> one of the Grimoires, you *can* alloy the metals, especially with so
> much mercury involved. But without the enchantment process involved,
> it won't be orichalcum any more.) That way you could retreive the
> material and separate it out in an expensive process, but you'd still
> need to go through the whole refining process again!
>
Which means you'd better as well of starting from scratch.... Good.

> > The cyberspurs would probably work better as a weapon focus....
> >after all, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't (Not my style
> >though)
>
> You need to be magically active to bond a weapon focus, though.
>
True... but it can be any kind of magical ability. I think that ANY kind
of adept can bond a weapon focus, according to the rules. If a non-sammie
wants to get orichlcum spurs, good on him; He's just going to dice a bit
more against spirits, and there always the question of just how astrally
active orichalcum is.

> >The orichalcum barriers would work too, if this is the case.... Makes a
> >lot more sense than FAB, if you ask me... though it is a bit expensive.
>
> It means that you no longer need to pay hideous amounts of money to get
> a mage to sink karma (which they can't technically earn without running!)
> into establishing barriers for you. You can just grow ivy all over your
> building and set up armored doors with orichalcum in the very center in
> an "airlock" arrangement, and you have excellent astral security.
>
It's hard to get ivy to grow indoors, and there are places that ivy won't
grow, so I guess that's where orichalcum would come in... It makes more
sense than maintaining a ward (they cost a lot of money).

I originally got the idea for the orichalcum from Earthdawn, where the
metal is the material of choice for scribing the wards that keep horrors
out. That kind of implies that you should be able to do the same kind
of thing in the SR universe... at least in general.

How about on a smaller scale; Genie bottles, astral proof cells, and
secure storage for your foci.

> >The other question which really makes me think, is what would happen if
> >you put a thin wire of orichalcum along the front of your car.... and then
> >ran though an astral person. Sounds ugly, hey?
>
> Yep. Orichalcum bumpers!
>
Yeah, the question is; Who yields first, and what damage happens to the
person. I'd say the person (who has no mass) gets thrown by the car, but
to stop unpleasant accidents I'd say that it doesn't hurt them badly
enough to kill them.

Bit of a logical dilemma there folks.

> >There are some problems with the basic design system, but something has
> >to be done to give sammies an edge over spirits.
>
> Not necessarily. There are some things where you really want to have
> teamwork taking place. Like a mage sustaining a touch-range Personal
> Anti-Spirit Barrier on the sammy while the sammy rips into the critter
> with his Willpower, or something like that. (I don't have the sourcebooks
> to check on the feasability of this, but I suspect you could make a
> purpose-designed spell that kept a spirit from harming your flesh while
> your weapon poked through the ward to hurt it...)
>
That is a really pain in the arse, because you've got to keep the sammie
concious, and keep the mage concious too.... That kind of limits your
taftical options. Besides, you need that kind of team work for most
spirits above force 4 or 5 anyway.... Few people will stand up against
one in a one-on-one HTH fight.

> >Yeah, but as a player I really never want to be on the other end of one of
> >those things from a sniper rifle .... no armor in astral space, remember?
>
> So who's going to spend 100,000 nuyen to geek your character like that when
> they could pay a lot less and send a whole wetwork team after you?
>
True enough.

Bleach.
Message no. 13
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:04:09 +1000
> >Which is why I'd like to put a limit on the types of guns that can load them.
> >The cost of the individual round would be the biggest deterrent to
> >abuse.... They'd only get used in desperate situations.
> >
> Ok, good... I was just trying to imagine my character Bull coming up with
> enough bullets to make one cylindar for his Warhawk... Yeah, right, like
> he'd ever be able to afford close over 500 grand...:)
>
The bullets don't cost quite that much; You're out by a factor of ten....
But still, do YOU want to waste a ten-thousand dollar shot on something
unimportant?? Most pay-offs from a run would only just cover a few of them.

> >Yeah, but so is alpha, beta or delta-grade cyberware, if you play it wrong.
> >
> <nods> Yup... Of course, I have yet to see anyone in any of our games
> actually get anything but basic cyber...:) But i was thinking from a GM's
> point of view there... i know I would make them nearly impossible to get
> ahold of...
>
Wow... I'm impressed. I'd like to see us run a campaign like that as
some stage. Like I said in the original post; I'd suggest that the GM
use them on the players once or twice before they get access to them...
or course, 'using them on the players' really means that you're dropping
their spirits, because you could inadvertently kill on of the characters.

Perhaps they should be made available under special circumstances, like
when you've got to go and waste that big evil free spirit that's been
giving you the shits lately.

I *know* they are powerful... it just takes restraint; The GM that lets
their players run around with Miniguns all the time is asking for trouble
anyway.

> >Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
> >of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
> >about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
> >the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
> >the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.
> >
> This is true... Hmmm, what do you do then... Oh yeah... (in a bad british
> accent) RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
>
Apologies; That was a mistake. They get Reaction dice for unarmed combat,
and the reaction is Force x2 or Force x 3. Makes no difference, really.

> Yeah, me too.... try fighting a force 30 Wasp Queen someday (and no, we
> never even touched the thing... We ran like scared rabbits, after dropping
> teh Ares building on it..:))
>
You what?? my god. That bitch would have 30 armour against even the Or.
Bullet.
We had trouble with the little queen in the Universal Blood Adventure.
My character and the other heavy of the group had to keep her
busy with a gyro mounted MMG and my MGL-12 with white phosphorous...
didn't do squat to her. The DM had to have his character come in in
astral space and burn a force 6 focus to kill her.
Message no. 14
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:58:25 +1000
> >Besides, DDT and the related insecticides are *almost* nerve gases... I
> >don't want to be anywhere near significant quantities of them..... Not in
> >real life and not as a player.
> >
> I've heard something about EnviroSeal or something like that.

It only takes 1 leak... *shudder* bullets, even a scratch...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:30:22 GMT
Max Rible writes

> At 03:17 10/16/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
> >Orichalcum (Or.) is a good choice, because it *has* to go into every weapon
> >focus, and the more you put in, the easier it is to bond. Or. is a
> >magical alloy and cannot exist without significant magic, so we assumed
> >that it essentially has an astral presence.
>
> Bear in mind that you just admitted the possibility of creating
> orichalcum-leaf coatings as impenetrable astral barriers
Yes had them years ago :)
Try using flakes every 10cm in a grid on the 'you can see out' side
of one way glass :)
Sec mage can fire out, PC's cannot see to attack in or get bodies
through astral to attack the mage :)
Just do put a big hefty (Transpartant Aluminum if you can get it :) )
wall between the glass and the Sam with the panther cannon or someone
will solve the problem the old fashioned way.

> and orichalcum-alloy cyberspurs that
> can defeat Immunity to Normal Weapons, not to mention reusable orichalcum-tipped
> arrows.
The defeting immunity to normal weapons without having to bond it as
a weapon focus needs stopped right quick for just this reason. owever
the oricalcum bullet will still hit the bug and thanks to having
physical mass send it flying for a bit despite not hurting it.

> Or an Astral Adept with that hideous 14D sniper rifle from Fields
> of Fire...
Hello youre history weapon. well they can be survived but its a 'bit'
heavy on karma pool.

Mark
Message no. 16
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:37:09 +0000
On 16 Oct 96 at 8:37, Marty wrote:
[snip orchialcum bullets useless after one shot]
> I will, when i get access to the book.... which will be some time next
> month. I currently have what you would euphenistically call a less than
> complete shadwrun sourcebook collection.
> In the mean-time, can you post a summary for all of us out here who
> don't have immediate access to the text?
*whimper* *whine* why me all the times? *cry*
Grim. p. 21: "[description of dynamiting a hillside to get gems] Of course,
not a scrap of magical energy was left in the minerals after such operations."
Following this logic, not a scrap of magical energy will be left in the bullet
when it has been fired.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:30:06 GMT
Marty writes
>
> The orichalcum barriers would work too, if this is the case.... Makes a
> lot more sense than FAB, if you ask me... though it is a bit expensive.
>
Thats how i've used it. You can spread orialcum pretty thin but only
so far as it has to be hand worked. So FAB walls are cheaper.

> The other question which really makes me think, is what would happen if
> you put a thin wire of orichalcum along the front of your car.... and then
> ran though an astral person. Sounds ugly, hey?
>
The driver works just as well.

> There are some problems with the basic design system, but something has
> to be done to give sammies an edge over spirits.
>
It's called an Enfield burst fire shotgun :)
I don't care how much armour the things got thats a deadly plus my
willpower in success, oh what do you mean you don't have enough dice
<grin>
I have seen a franchi hurt a Wraith!, willpower 6, buy 6 more with
karma, roll for 12 successes, ok target you might need 2's but you
need 20! of them good luck :)
i was giving it only half threat rating vs the mundanes till that got
pulled out, then i knew what would happen.

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:30:38 -0800
At 13:37 10/16/96 +0000, Sascha Pabst wrote:
>Grim. p. 21: "[description of dynamiting a hillside to get gems] Of course,
>not a scrap of magical energy was left in the minerals after such operations."
>Following this logic, not a scrap of magical energy will be left in the bullet
>when it has been fired.

Not necessarily. Dynamiting a hillside to get at quartz crystals can be
argued to be an impersonal step in the fabrication process. If explosive
force were sufficient to destroy magical energy, you'd have problems with
grenades in the proximity of weapon foci. You could always use the point
you quoted for the ruling, though...
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:50:52 +0100
In message <199610152037.PAA28569@***.ncweb.com>, Steven Ratkovich
<chaos@*****.COM> writes
>[Snip discussion about Orichalcum Bullets]
>
>Boy, you guys are just asking for a world of hurt... Let me point out two
>things here...
>
>First, there is an extreme;y prohibitive cost factor. If Or. costs 88,000
>Nuyen for an ounce, I would assume that you would need at least one ounce to
>go into the bullet.

Bullet weights are measured in grains, 7000 grains to the pound: the
200-grain .45s I favour are thus, coimcidentally, 0.45 of an ounce each.
Would it all have to be orichalcum? Apart from anything else, you
probably need at least a partial jacket for the rifling to engage into.

A rifle bullet is a quarter of the weight, so would be cheaper.

> Secondly, the bigger the bullet, the more expensive the
>shell would have to be, thus increasing teh cost. A Panther Assault cannon
>shell, for example, would probably require a minimum of 4-5 ounces of the
>stuff...

Yep. If it's a 20mm weapon, say, the shell weighs about eight ounces.


--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:22:05 +1000
> > The other question which really makes me think, is what would happen if
> > you put a thin wire of orichalcum along the front of your car.... and then
> > ran though an astral person. Sounds ugly, hey?
> >
> The driver works just as well.
>
Hadn't thought of that..... Kinda makes walking through traffic in the
astral a bit hazardous. *grin*

> > There are some problems with the basic design system, but something has
> > to be done to give sammies an edge over spirits.
> >
> It's called an Enfield burst fire shotgun :)
> I don't care how much armour the things got thats a deadly plus my
> willpower in success, oh what do you mean you don't have enough dice
> <grin>
> I have seen a franchi hurt a Wraith!, willpower 6, buy 6 more with
> karma, roll for 12 successes, ok target you might need 2's but you
> need 20! of them good luck :)
> i was giving it only half threat rating vs the mundanes till that got
> pulled out, then i knew what would happen.
>
Yeah, but that only works if you're facing ONE critter... bugs come by
the hundreds, and even though most of them are flesh forms, a significant
number of them are true forms.

According to the Bug City rules, a true-form Beetle spirit gets
Force x4 armour against bullets
Force x2 armour against hand to hand (ie, that's natural armour)

Now at force 4, an unaugmented troll will have serious trouble getting
through the armour, even with a Katana. That's not to mention the fact
that it'll have 16 (!!!) armour against guns... 12 against APDS, and
that's assuming that you allow the 1/2 armour rules for the natural stuff
the bug has.

Yay. I'm not taking a sammie anywhere near bugs unless they're *all* below
force three, or I have something to equalise the situation.

Bleach.
Message no. 21
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:25:19 +1000
> > I will, when i get access to the book.... which will be some time next
> > month. I currently have what you would euphenistically call a less than
> > complete shadwrun sourcebook collection.
> > In the mean-time, can you post a summary for all of us out here who
> > don't have immediate access to the text?

> *whimper* *whine* why me all the times? *cry*

Because you've got the books.

> Grim. p. 21: "[description of dynamiting a hillside to get gems] Of course,
> not a scrap of magical energy was left in the minerals after such operations."
> Following this logic, not a scrap of magical energy will be left in the bullet
> when it has been fired.
>
I was using the same kind of logic there...... If you want to get really
technical, you can say that the act of firing destabilises the orichalcum
and causes it to start to lose its magic....You could assume that the
process is not instantaneous, so that it's still happening when it hits
the bug. It's the loss of magic (to wherever magic goes) that does the
damage.

Hmmm..... Supercritical Orichalcum.

DU slugs for bugs. *grin*

Bleach.
Message no. 22
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:35:14 +1000
> > >Orichalcum (Or.) is a good choice, because it *has* to go into every weapon
> > >focus, and the more you put in, the easier it is to bond. Or. is a
> > >magical alloy and cannot exist without significant magic, so we assumed
> > >that it essentially has an astral presence.
> >
> > Bear in mind that you just admitted the possibility of creating
> > orichalcum-leaf coatings as impenetrable astral barriers
>
> Yes had them years ago :)
> Try using flakes every 10cm in a grid on the 'you can see out' side
> of one way glass :)
> Sec mage can fire out, PC's cannot see to attack in or get bodies
> through astral to attack the mage :)
>
The orichalcum flakes will only stop one spell.... during which time they
absorb the energy and cause it to ground out prematurely. What happens is
that the spell mainfests accidently in the window and blows it to bits.

Besides, how wide is a spell?? If the flecks are 10cm apart it's more
than likely that the spell will travel in between the flecks. It'd
still work against astral intruders though.

BTW... Transparent Aluminium??? (If I read that right)...Which universe are
you living in? The first person to make a transparent metal, I will give
my left tecticle to. A Barret would go right through Aluminium without
slowing down, anyway.

> > and orichalcum-alloy cyberspurs that
> > can defeat Immunity to Normal Weapons, not to mention reusable orichalcum-tipped
> > arrows.
>
> The defeting immunity to normal weapons without having to bond it as
> a weapon focus needs stopped right quick for just this reason. owever
> the oricalcum bullet will still hit the bug and thanks to having
> physical mass send it flying for a bit despite not hurting it.
>
Why bother??? Weapon focuses negate the power anyway... and they get the
extra dice to attack or damge (or whatever; I'm not sure).. If a sammie
wants to get spurs like that, good on him; They cost in excess of 100,00
nuyen each, and the implantation proceduce would be utterly bizarre to
avoid ruining the magic.

I sure as fuck want my bullets to be able to hurt what they are fired
at... They'd still be Willpower targetted, anyway.

> > Or an Astral Adept with that hideous 14D sniper rifle from Fields
> > of Fire...
>
> Hello youre history weapon. well they can be survived but its a 'bit'
> heavy on karma pool.
>
We used to award one extra Karma (direct to the pool) just for surviving a
Barret shot *grin*... It is *that* unlikely that we figured we may as
well give them the jackpot.

Of course, the DU in the slug gives any surviving target the equivalent
of a dose of Doom.... Heh Heh... better get to the doc right quick.

We don't use Barrets in our game that much... for obvious reasons.
Message no. 23
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:59:04 -0700
I have a couple of ideas on this whole orichalcum bullet debate:

(just stuff that seemed to make sense to me)

1. This whole thing about getting multiple rounds from one unit of
orichalcum... IMHO each bullet should require the exact same amount of
orichalcum, regardless of skill. That way, the cost will still be
prohibitive, even if someone has a monstro skill.

2. Any size round should be allowable; If you can make a pistol bullet
from something, you should be able to make a SR round, or shotgun or
whatever. However, the entire bullet (sans propellant) should have to be
made out of orichalcum, so the weight of the bullet/ 10g = number of
units of orichalcum required.

3. The bullet can only be used once. Once it has been fired, it would
have to re-created.

----Tom---
Message no. 24
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:06:12 -0800
At 17:59 10/16/96 -0700, Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:
>1. This whole thing about getting multiple rounds from one unit of
>orichalcum... IMHO each bullet should require the exact same amount of
>orichalcum, regardless of skill. That way, the cost will still be
>prohibitive, even if someone has a monstro skill.

This seems reasonable.

>2. Any size round should be allowable; If you can make a pistol bullet
>from something, you should be able to make a SR round, or shotgun or
>whatever. However, the entire bullet (sans propellant) should have to be
>made out of orichalcum, so the weight of the bullet/ 10g = number of
>units of orichalcum required.

It might be appropriate to be able to create such bullets by alloying
orichalcum with lead (or lead radicals). However, the game master should
pick an appropriate minimum orichalcum content to make the bullets cost
as much as they consider balanced.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 25
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:06:10 -0700
<SNIP>
> Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
> of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
> about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
> the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
> the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.

The only get the immunity to normal weapons against firearms and explosions
(read under the manifestation power). The don't get it to melee, throwing
weapons or projectile weapons because these attacks carry the force of the
attacker's WILL. Use a compound bow, or get in and go toe-to-toe.

> The flesh forms are a push-over, I grant you...and the smaller (force
1-3)
> true forms are relaively easy, but even one big true-form spirit can
waste
> the entire party. I've seen it happen.


Waaaahhh! Isn't that the idea? Bug spirits are supposed to be our first
taste of the Enemy. They're the things of nightmare's. One good sized boy
is supposed to be able to take out group if they don't play smart. Read the
novel Burning Bright, or 2XS. I play bug spirits like the Aliens, one of
those bad boys could shread a number of marines and still not break a sweat
(if they sweat). :o)

> > Also, amazingly enough, Insecticide works wonders on fleshforms and
true
> > spirits alike... A little DDT and you're ready to rock and roll...:)

Nope, Bull, sorry to correct you but Fleshforms don't have the
vulnerability to insecticides.

> Please feel free to come back at me.

Don't want to look like I came at you. I just disagree with the Or. bullets
and your feeling of need for them. The fear and threat of bug spirits is
part of what I like about them, don't cheapen them with something like
"magic" bullets...

Besides, foci go inert once they leave your aura, and only magically active
weapons count at "non-normal" in my world.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 26
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:44:30 -0700
>If a non-sammie
> wants to get orichlcum spurs, good on him; He's just going to dice a bit
> more against spirits, and there always the question of just how astrally
> active orichalcum is.

Your whole premise is based on the fact you feel orichalcum is astrally
active, even if it's not bonded. If that is the case, what keeps my
projecting mage or spirit from grounding through the bullets in your clip
and opening a whole case of damaging manipulation whoop-ass on your sammy?

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 27
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:03:15 +1000
> 1. This whole thing about getting multiple rounds from one unit of
> orichalcum... IMHO each bullet should require the exact same amount of
> orichalcum, regardless of skill. That way, the cost will still be
> prohibitive, even if someone has a monstro skill.
>
Yeah, but I didn't want the cost to be *too* prohibitive.... But I guess
that if you need one bullet, then you should only be allowed to make
one bullet.

Whatever suits you i guess.

> 2. Any size round should be allowable; If you can make a pistol bullet
> from something, you should be able to make a SR round, or shotgun or
> whatever. However, the entire bullet (sans propellant) should have to be
> made out of orichalcum, so the weight of the bullet/ 10g = number of
> units of orichalcum required.
>
Then you have to know how much an individual round ways..... I don't
carry that kind of info around in my skull.

You could work it as an individual round waying an equivalent grams
equal to the power of the weapon, but then the sniper rifle bullet which
i *don't* want would be too easy to make.

I like the enchanting test because it represents a special process that
has to be undertaken to give the orichalcum the power to be used this
way....It'd stop corps from mass-producing these kind of bullets.

Make the test whatever you want... I just presented the general concept,
and defended it; I don't care if you modify it.

> 3. The bullet can only be used once. Once it has been fired, it would
> have to re-created.
>
We've dealt with that already.... The force of the firing serves to
disenchact the bullet.... If you want to go and find it and start to
enchant the bullet from scratch (Ie, enchant the raw metals as well)
.. then good on you.


PS, to put fuel on the fire... what do you guys think about APDS on these
bullets... I've already made up my mind about that, but I want to start
another debate. *grin*

Bleach
Message no. 28
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:17:37 +1000
> > Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
> > of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
> > about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
> > the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
> > the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.
>
> The only get the immunity to normal weapons against firearms and explosions
> (read under the manifestation power). The don't get it to melee, throwing
> weapons or projectile weapons because these attacks carry the force of the
> attacker's WILL. Use a compound bow, or get in and go toe-to-toe.
>
Yeah, but we're considering banning compound bows in our games.... We've
had bad experiences with one.

What happened is;
- We had a troll PC, he had 15 strength...
- He carried a compound bow with dikoted arrows. (19 M or S)
- The silly fool had 3 for all his mental attributes.
- He got possesed by some nasty critter, and the critter turned that
fragging huge bow on us.
- The critter got +2 to its TNs to use the bow, which meant that he only
hit me with ONE succes. At that kind of TN, I had no chance even to dodge.
- The arrow hit me in the back, went through the back armour (4), through
me (4), and through the front armour (4). By that stage it still had enough
power (7) to embed itself in a rock wall.

Thankfully, some other freak in our party had a minigun and hit the troll
with a full-auto burst... it was the only thing that we could do to stop
him.

Sorry, but I don't *ever* want that to happen to me again. If your
character is less strong, than the power is lower, but most bugs still
have a lot more than 4 armour.

> Waaaahhh! Isn't that the idea? Bug spirits are supposed to be our first
> taste of the Enemy. They're the things of nightmare's. One good sized boy
> is supposed to be able to take out group if they don't play smart. Read the
> novel Burning Bright, or 2XS. I play bug spirits like the Aliens, one of
> those bad boys could shread a number of marines and still not break a sweat
> (if they sweat). :o)
>
That's inccorect... Have you ever played Queen Euphoria?? It's basically
Aliens in SR... The characters can survive that, but that was before the
rules changed. The UB adventure is the same... The queen in that was
unkillable under the bug city rules.

I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be so
hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure you
couldn't... if you wanted to survive.

> Don't want to look like I came at you. I just disagree with the Or. bullets
> and your feeling of need for them. The fear and threat of bug spirits is
> part of what I like about them, don't cheapen them with something like
> "magic" bullets...
>
Oooh, that smarts...'magic bullets' indeed *grin*

I feel the need for them because in my experience in Bug City a samurai
is useless... and not everyone should have to be a full blown mage in
order to be useful.
Message no. 29
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:21:33 +1000
> >If a non-sammie
> > wants to get orichlcum spurs, good on him; He's just going to dice a bit
> > more against spirits, and there always the question of just how astrally
> > active orichalcum is.
>
> Your whole premise is based on the fact you feel orichalcum is astrally
> active, even if it's not bonded. If that is the case, what keeps my
> projecting mage or spirit from grounding through the bullets in your clip
> and opening a whole case of damaging manipulation whoop-ass on your sammy?
>
Finally!!

The answer is... Not much!!! If they were spurs, then I'd give them the
same equivalent rating as the body or willpower of the target.

Why would you want spurs like that, anyway??? They don't DO anything;
The immunity to normal weapons doesn't work against HTH combat.

It's the biggest loophole in the things.... and would pose another
deterrent to carrying the bastards around all the time.

If you don't like this idea, then find some excuse that they aren't
active unless powered by the willpower of the user, which is why they
still use Willpower to attack rather than Firearms skill like a weapon focus
would.

Bleach
Message no. 30
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:45:56 -0400
> BTW... Transparent Aluminium??? (If I read that right)...Which universe are
> you living in? The first person to make a transparent metal, I will give

He was referring to Star Trek 4: The Search for Whales. :-)

> my left tecticle to. A Barret would go right through Aluminium without
> slowing down, anyway.

Whoa! Which universe do *you* call home? Aluminum foil, sure. Aluminum
*armour*? Good luck. It is stated that the Barret uses APDS rounds -
lousy at penetrating hard targets like metals...

> > > Or an Astral Adept with that hideous 14D sniper rifle from Fields
> > > of Fire...
> > Hello youre history weapon. well they can be survived but its a 'bit'
> > heavy on karma pool.
> We used to award one extra Karma (direct to the pool) just for surviving a
> Barret shot *grin*... It is *that* unlikely that we figured we may as
> well give them the jackpot.

Oh come on! 14D? Big deal! You just have to have friends around, and
not take too much overdamage... It's the *second* shot that hurts!

> Of course, the DU in the slug gives any surviving target the equivalent
> of a dose of Doom.... Heh Heh... better get to the doc right quick.AA

Huh? Where's this? It uses APDS, not APDU!

> We don't use Barrets in our game that much... for obvious reasons.

We usually have at least one floating about - utterly useless most
of the time, "Sir, if you could please check that 2-meter long weapon
you're carrying, I'll let you go right in".

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 31
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:42:53 -0700
<monster snip>

> Make the test whatever you want... I just presented the general concept,
> and defended it; I don't care if you modify it.

Thanks.

> PS, to put fuel on the fire... what do you guys think about APDS on these
> bullets... I've already made up my mind about that, but I want to start
> another debate. *grin*

Whaaa? I don't think so! I'm about twenty messages behind, so this may
have already been said but - NOT A CHANCE!! I don't have alot of
knowledge on this sort of thing, but from what my knowledgeable friends
have told me, APDS requires metals a helluva lot heavier than orichalcum...


heh heh

---Tom---
Message no. 32
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:08:11 -0700
>That's inccorect... Have you ever played Queen Euphoria?? It's basically
>Aliens in SR... The characters can survive that, but that was before the
>rules changed. The UB adventure is the same... The queen in that was
>unkillable under the bug city rules.


Hate to correct the incorrect, But here we go. I've played a long while back
QE. If you remember that "hive" to use your term only had a small amount of
bugs when compared to a actual hive. I counted 39 bugs to be exact. I could
be wrong by a couple either way but I'm in the ballpark. In the "Aliens"
They had anywhere from 100 to 150+ of the beasties runnning around. BTW that
was a very small hive. As for the queen tough. She's a real nasty and
susposed to be. ;-)



>I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be so
>hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure you
>couldn't... if you wanted to survive.

FASA never intended a frontal assault on a hive either. Or a assualt of
anykind period.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 33
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:49:43 -0400
In a message dated 96-10-16 17:40:02 EDT, you write:

>BTW... Transparent Aluminium??? (If I read that right)...Which universe are
>you living in? The first person to make a transparent metal, I will give
>my left tecticle to. A Barret would go right through Aluminium without
>slowing down, anyway.
>
Sounds like he's living in Star Trek (neat place, but probably not likely).
OTOH, I've heard that through the use of extreme (and I do mean EXTREME)
pressure, the size of the crystals of a material (and all solid materials
have them, the size simply varies) can be reduced to a smaller size. With
certain ceramics, this causes the crystals to allow light to pass through it,
at least to the point of translucency. So, I now ask, why not with aluminum?
Admittedly, the one example of a metal that this was done to in the article
involved copper and was by no means transparent, why not? After all, it's
only a fictional world-you could always fall back on some sort of magical
explanation.

John Pederson
canthros@***.com
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm
Message no. 34
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:49:45 -0400
In a message dated 96-10-16 17:27:38 EDT, you write:

>> Grim. p. 21: "[description of dynamiting a hillside to get gems] Of
course,
>> not a scrap of magical energy was left in the minerals after such
>operations."
>> Following this logic, not a scrap of magical energy will be left in the
>bullet
>> when it has been fired.
>>
>I was using the same kind of logic there...... If you want to get really
>technical, you can say that the act of firing destabilises the orichalcum
>and causes it to start to lose its magic....You could assume that the
>process is not instantaneous, so that it's still happening when it hits
>the bug. It's the loss of magic (to wherever magic goes) that does the
>damage.
>
>Hmmm..... Supercritical Orichalcum.
>
>DU slugs for bugs. *grin*
>
>Bleach.
Sounds like fun-could be a whole realm of techno-magickal weaponry to
explore: Orichalcum bombs, grenades, explosives, etc. 'Course, it'd
probably only work on the astral or with things that were dual (shapeshifters
beware!) or on things that were primarily astral (like spirits). It's an
interesting idea. A munchkinesque idea, perhaps, but still an interesting
line of thought-and an evil ace-in-the-hole for the GM (heh, heh, heh:)

John Pederson
canthros@***.com
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm

"Back foul munchy! Back evil thing of role-playing darkness! Back! Back!"
Message no. 35
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. -Reply
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:37:58 -0500
James Ojaste wrote:
>Which universe do *you* call home? Aluminum foil, sure. Aluminum
>*armour*? Good luck. It is stated that the Barret uses APDS rounds - lousy at
>penetrating hard targets like metals...

APDS? Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot??? It's whole purpose is armor
penetration. It's got a steel (or better) penetrator that will cut through aluminum
like butter.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 36
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:40:55 +0000
> From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>

> On 16 Oct 96 at 8:37, Marty wrote:
> [snip orchialcum bullets useless after one shot]
> > I will, when i get access to the book.... which will be some time next
> > month. I currently have what you would euphenistically call a less than
> > complete shadwrun sourcebook collection.
> > In the mean-time, can you post a summary for all of us out here who
> > don't have immediate access to the text?
> *whimper* *whine* why me all the times? *cry*
> Grim. p. 21: "[description of dynamiting a hillside to get gems] Of course,
> not a scrap of magical energy was left in the minerals after such operations."
> Following this logic, not a scrap of magical energy will be left in the bullet
> when it has been fired.

Well, I think the description refers to the way the material was
gained. Not having picked them from the stone with your hands has
destroyed the "magical ability" of the gems. It was not the
explosion itself, but using such methods thus killing the spirit of
the material.

Mike
Message no. 37
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. -Reply
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:46:05 +1000
> James Ojaste wrote:
> >Which universe do *you* call home? Aluminum foil, sure. Aluminum
> >*armour*? Good luck. It is stated that the Barret uses APDS rounds - lousy at
> >penetrating hard targets like metals...
>
> APDS? Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot??? It's whole purpose is armor
> penetration. It's got a steel (or better) penetrator that will cut through aluminum
> like butter.
>
It uses a variant of APDS, not necessarily equivalent to the stuff for
small arms.
As it is, the armour on a M113 infantry carrier is 2" thick aluminium and
WILL NOT stop a .50 cal bullet.

Add the fact that the Barret is rumoured to use Depleted Uranium for the
slugs, which will cut through steel *better* than through an unarmoured
person.... What else burns a hole though armoured targets???
Message no. 38
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:03:23 +0100
In message <199610171645.MAA19487@*****.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, James
Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA> writes
>Whoa! Which universe do *you* call home? Aluminum foil, sure. Aluminum
>*armour*? Good luck. It is stated that the Barret uses APDS rounds -
>lousy at penetrating hard targets like metals...

APDS. "Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot". Armour was, last time I
looked, usually made of steel or aluminium, at least all the tanks and
APCs I know are.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 39
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:01:59 +1000
> > Make the test whatever you want... I just presented the general concept,
> > and defended it; I don't care if you modify it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > PS, to put fuel on the fire... what do you guys think about APDS on these
> > bullets... I've already made up my mind about that, but I want to start
> > another debate. *grin*
>
> Whaaa? I don't think so! I'm about twenty messages behind, so this may
> have already been said but - NOT A CHANCE!! I don't have alot of
> knowledge on this sort of thing, but from what my knowledgeable friends
> have told me, APDS requires metals a helluva lot heavier than orichalcum...
>
That's the problem; In the SR game, the round they call APDS is actually
merely a teflon coated, or greased round. Obviously APDS would not work,
though the components of the metal are all pretty dense.....

We assume that the Barret uses true-APDS rounds, using DU to get the
effects....

But can you 'grease' them???? That's the real question.

*bwhahahahahah* I just want to see the reaction.
Message no. 40
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:06:04 +1000
> >I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be so
> >hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure you
> >couldn't... if you wanted to survive.
>
> FASA never intended a frontal assault on a hive either. Or a assualt of
> anykind period.
>
I think you just ate your own foot then, Nightlife..... Lets see; Queen
Euphoria was a frontal assault... The UB was a frontal assault. The one
where you encounter the huge hive beneath seattle wasn't meant to be (too
big), but you still burst in there with your guns blazing.

The first sourcebook where you are meant to be seriously afraid of
individual bugs is Bug City... and even then whole hives of the critters
are still active. The problem they have is that they made it too damn
easy for a mage to kill the freaks, and too damn hard for a sammie even
to hurt them.

Bleach
Message no. 41
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:28:58 +1000
> I was using the same kind of logic there...... If you want to get really
> technical, you can say that the act of firing destabilises the orichalcum
> and causes it to start to lose its magic....You could assume that the
> process is not instantaneous, so that it's still happening when it hits
> the bug. It's the loss of magic (to wherever magic goes) that does the
> damage.
>
> Hmmm..... Supercritical Orichalcum.
>
> DU slugs for bugs. *grin*

Muhahahaha! Lemme get my hands on some of these suckers! Methinketh bug
city just became a smidgeon safer than it was... Altho I'm STILL not goin
there with anything less than LOTS of rounds!

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 42
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:26:00 -0700
>I think you just ate your own foot then, Nightlife..... Lets see; Queen
>Euphoria was a frontal assault... The UB was a frontal assault. The one
>where you encounter the huge hive beneath seattle wasn't meant to be (too
>big), but you still burst in there with your guns blazing.
>
>The first sourcebook where you are meant to be seriously afraid of
>individual bugs is Bug City... and even then whole hives of the critters
>are still active. The problem they have is that they made it too damn
>easy for a mage to kill the freaks, and too damn hard for a sammie even
>to hurt them.
>
>Bleach
>
I wouldn't say that. The reference you used was "Aliens".That kind of
scenario and hive size is sucide. As for the frontal assults and remebering
the size of the QE and UB hives were pretty small less that 50 bugs of what
ever variety. The aliens reference alluded to a hive with at least 100. With
150-200 likely. The UB and QE reference to small hives. I.E. less than fifty
bugs and remember if the attacked in mass and had the drop you're in
trouble. If you want to check out on the size that hives hives can reach on
a medium scale check out double exposure. Even that is kind of small to the
hives referenced in to aliens stories. I.E. Earth War, The Female War,
etc... I'm not going to list all my aliens books. those sizes range in the
thousands and the one on earth millions. But I digress the hives in Bug City
easily range from 500 bug to 1000+ thats the hives in Bug City and a frontal
approach is sheer sucide unless the munchies get to it first. As for the
mage problem I agree perhaps a limited immunity to magic could be discussed
to remedy that problem.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 43
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:28:16 -0700
>I think you just ate your own foot then, Nightlife..... Lets see; Queen
>Euphoria was a frontal assault... The UB was a frontal assault. The one
>where you encounter the huge hive beneath seattle wasn't meant to be (too
>big), but you still burst in there with your guns blazing.

And if you remember the Gm notes they say in the PC's are stupid enough to
try to take on the hive let them die. But it'll be glorious.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 44
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:17:52 -0700
<SNIP>
> > 2. Any size round should be allowable; If you can make a pistol
bullet
> > from something, you should be able to make a SR round, or shotgun or
> > whatever. However, the entire bullet (sans propellant) should have to
be
> > made out of orichalcum, so the weight of the bullet/ 10g = number of
> > units of orichalcum required.
> >
> Then you have to know how much an individual round ways..... I don't
> carry that kind of info around in my skull.

Divide the weight listed next to the price per 10 rounds by 10...

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 45
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:30:45 -0700
> > The only get the immunity to normal weapons against firearms and
explosions
> > (read under the manifestation power). The don't get it to melee,
throwing
> > weapons or projectile weapons because these attacks carry the force of
the
> > attacker's WILL. Use a compound bow, or get in and go toe-to-toe.
> >
> Yeah, but we're considering banning compound bows in our games.... We've
> had bad experiences with one.
>
> What happened is;
> - We had a troll PC, he had 15 strength...
> - He carried a compound bow with dikoted arrows. (19 M or S)
> - The silly fool had 3 for all his mental attributes.
> - He got possesed by some nasty critter, and the critter turned that
> fragging huge bow on us.
> - The critter got +2 to its TNs to use the bow, which meant that he only
> hit me with ONE succes. At that kind of TN, I had no chance even to
dodge.
> - The arrow hit me in the back, went through the back armour (4), through
> me (4), and through the front armour (4). By that stage it still had
enough
> power (7) to embed itself in a rock wall.
>
> Thankfully, some other freak in our party had a minigun and hit the troll
> with a full-auto burst... it was the only thing that we could do to stop
> him.
>
> Sorry, but I don't *ever* want that to happen to me again. If your
> character is less strong, than the power is lower, but most bugs still
> have a lot more than 4 armour.

So you're going to ban a weapon just so it can't be used by someone if the
get influenced or mind-controlled? I'm sorry but thast just strikes me as
so darn silly. Then to top it off, because you'll ban one effective weapon
you've got to INVENT something else out of thin air to take it's place...
:o)

My group had a POTENT troll phys-ad in one of their games that a wraith to
control of, snapped Rookie's legs near clean off with killing hands. But we
don't ban killing hands or Troll physads in our group beacuse of that.
Another time a wraith got ahold of nearly the entire group, Logan
inparticular...but we didn't ban anything about him afterwards and Logan
was near munchkin-like stats.

I guess this just seems so silly - "A compound bow nearly killed me, so
we're thinking of banning them." What's next? Banning sniper rifles,
banning spells, why not just ban the bug spirits and stop worrying about
it. Or ban influence and mind-control abilities/spells so they can't be
used on your team members?

> > Waaaahhh! Isn't that the idea? Bug spirits are supposed to be our first
> > taste of the Enemy. They're the things of nightmare's. One good sized
boy
> > is supposed to be able to take out group if they don't play smart. Read
the
> > novel Burning Bright, or 2XS. I play bug spirits like the Aliens, one
of
> > those bad boys could shread a number of marines and still not break a
sweat
> > (if they sweat). :o)
> >
> That's inccorect... Have you ever played Queen Euphoria?? It's basically
> Aliens in SR... The characters can survive that, but that was before the
> rules changed. The UB adventure is the same... The queen in that was
> unkillable under the bug city rules.

Yes, I've GM'd the module about five times now. Members of my present group
have run through it at least twice. I even had to beef up the lethality
level of it to make the point on bugs that the module was supposed to give.

> I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be so
> hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure you
> couldn't... if you wanted to survive.

Guess our group has two different gaming styles. I take it that you
shouldn't be wlatzing in a nuking a hive. Again I encourage you to read 2XS
and Burning Bright, then also take a look at the module Double Exposure.

Also look at it this way, if a group of runners should be able to take out
a hive according to your logic. Why did Ares have to use that nuke in
Chicago, and why haven't the UCAS military forces just mowed right over the
bugs that are left? Bugs are tough, they're a small taste of the Enemy.
You're trying to candy-coat and down-play them way too much...

> I feel the need for them because in my experience in Bug City a samurai
> is useless... and not everyone should have to be a full blown mage in
> order to be useful.

The mundanes and Sammy's in our group have done pretty well against against
true-form solidiers when they had to. They found out the secret pretty
quick though...play smart don't try to play hard.

Sometime's it's not gunning the enemy down or taking them out that
constitutes overcoming them.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 46
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:03:12 +0100
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) said on 10:42/17 Oct 96...

> Whaaa? I don't think so! I'm about twenty messages behind, so this may
> have already been said but - NOT A CHANCE!! I don't have alot of
> knowledge on this sort of thing, but from what my knowledgeable friends
> have told me, APDS requires metals a helluva lot heavier than orichalcum...

I'm not sure, but I don't think you realy need a heavy metal. The
modern-day equivalent of SR's APDS rounds (see the USMC Fact File I
included below) uses tungsten, but I guess you could just as well use lead
or steel if you want cheaper ammo (the .50 cal. SLAP rounds cost US$7.50
*each*, against maybe US$2 for ball rounds). The main reason for using
these discarding sabot rounds is because of the increase in velocity (over
1200 m/s for SLAP against about 900 m/s normally), which gives both a
flatter trajectory and higher energy = higher armor penetration.

Anyway, orichalcum APDS rounds don't seem worth the effort to me. They're
intended for use against spirits, right? The extra armor penetration won't
help much there, at least not in my game -- to the spirit, a bullet is a
bullet, no matter the exact type.


Saboted Light Armor Penetrator (SLAP) Ammunition

Velocity: 3985 feet per second
Maximum effective range: 4921.5 feet (1500 meters) against 3/4" High
Hard Armor (HHA)
Unit Replacement Cost: $7.50 per round


Features: .50 caliber SLAP ammunition was developed by the Marine Corps
during the mid/late 1980s and was approved for service use in 1990 during
Operation Desert Storm. It uses a reduced caliber, heavy metal (tungsten)
.30 inch diameter penetrator wrapped in a "plastic" sabot or "shoe" of
.50 inch diameter.
Since the mass of the saboted penetrator is much lighter in weight than
normal ball .50 caliber ammunition, SLAP's velocity can be significantly
and safely increased in an unmodified M2 Machine Gun. This produces a
very fast round with a very flat trajectory which enhances hit
probability. SLAP ammuntion is completely interoperable with M2 machine
guns with stellite liner.


Background: During the 1980s, the Marine Corps invested in both .50
caliber and 7.62 x 51 SLAP concepts. The .50 caliber effort was very
successful and extends the light armor capability of the M2 Heavy Machine
Gun significantly. The 7.62mm effort was not successful in the M60 and
caused catastrophic barrel failures due to in-bore break-up of the sabot
and the penetrator puncturing the side of the barrel. Also, its increase
in penetration was not on the same order of magnitude as the .50 caliber
SLAP's.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My words are minimal.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 47
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:03:12 +0100
Loki said on 23:17/17 Oct 96...

> > Then you have to know how much an individual round ways..... I don't
> > carry that kind of info around in my skull.
>
> Divide the weight listed next to the price per 10 rounds by 10...

They make no sense at all. 10 rounds weigh .5 kg, it says... So that
means a hold-out pistol round weighs just as much as a HMG round: 50
grams each. If you want some real-world weights for bullets and complete
rounds, let me know and I'll post them (or send them privately, if the
rest of the list doesn't want/need them).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My words are minimal.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 48
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:38:00 +1000
> Anyway, orichalcum APDS rounds don't seem worth the effort to me. They're
> intended for use against spirits, right? The extra armor penetration won't
> help much there, at least not in my game -- to the spirit, a bullet is a
> bullet, no matter the exact type.
>
Yep.... My own hypothetical question answered. I wouldn't let them in my
own game either.

I seem to recall the APDS description saying something about Telfon coatings.

More to the point, if the round is teflon coated, it isn't going to go
through chitin any easier and the polymer coat may even interfere with
the damage the round does to the spirit. There's also the interesting
question of how you'd manufacture such a round without destroying the
magical properties of the orichalcum... Highly technological process
meets magic?? I don't think so.

Before anyone gets going; I've already assumed that when you make these
beasties, you hand cast your own bullets... which is where the Firearms
B/R test that I posted in the original article came from.

Bleach
Message no. 49
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:39:55 -0700
<SNIP>
> The first sourcebook where you are meant to be seriously afraid of
> individual bugs is Bug City... and even then whole hives of the critters
> are still active. The problem they have is that they made it too damn
> easy for a mage to kill the freaks, and too damn hard for a sammie even
> to hurt them.

'Course a truly inventive (or evil) GM can alter the Mana protection power
of the Queen to protect the members of her hive from all Mana based spells
and make it just as hard on the Mage's too.

Also, since spirits and elementals are formed from the very fabric of the
astral, I give them their threat rating (which is equal to their force) to
roll in spell defense, which helps them stand up to spells a little better
too.

Also, FASA encourages you to provide differences in the Bug Spirits as your
runners come across them. Give the soldiers of one hive magic resistance (a
form of shielding) or such...big suprise for Mr. Cocky-Mage...

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 50
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:17:56 -0700
> > > Then you have to know how much an individual round ways..... I don't
> > > carry that kind of info around in my skull.
> >
> > Divide the weight listed next to the price per 10 rounds by 10...
>
> They make no sense at all. 10 rounds weigh .5 kg, it says... So that
> means a hold-out pistol round weighs just as much as a HMG round: 50
> grams each. If you want some real-world weights for bullets and complete
> rounds, let me know and I'll post them (or send them privately, if the
> rest of the list doesn't want/need them).

I was just trying to give a simple answer based off what's listed in the
book. Eeeesh!

Ok, so I give...what type of round are the stats in the book for?

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 51
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:31:14 +1000
> > The first sourcebook where you are meant to be seriously afraid of
> > individual bugs is Bug City... and even then whole hives of the critters
> > are still active. The problem they have is that they made it too damn
> > easy for a mage to kill the freaks, and too damn hard for a sammie even
> > to hurt them.
>
> Also, FASA encourages you to provide differences in the Bug Spirits as your
> runners come across them. Give the soldiers of one hive magic resistance (a
> form of shielding) or such...big suprise for Mr. Cocky-Mage...
>
I'd do that anyway... but it still makes it very hard to hurt the guys at
all.... In our game, combat spells work off straight Force drain... Makes it
painful to cast lots of big ones, that's for sure.
Message no. 52
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:08:51 +0100
Loki said on 0:17/19 Oct 96...

> I was just trying to give a simple answer based off what's listed in the
> book. Eeeesh!
>
> Ok, so I give...what type of round are the stats in the book for?

Beats me, probably another case of "That looks good, let's use it" game
design, like the heavy pistol weights :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Save the Earth -- eat Jupiter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 53
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. -Reply
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:21:45 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.961018084302.5405B-100000@*****.student.gu.edu
.au>, Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>It uses a variant of APDS, not necessarily equivalent to the stuff for
>small arms.

How do you "vary" APDS? If it's not a high-density penetrator, it isn't
"armour piercing": if it's not a subcalibre projectile in a lightweight
sabot, it's not "discarding sabot".

>Add the fact that the Barret is rumoured to use Depleted Uranium for the
>slugs, which will cut through steel *better* than through an unarmoured
>person.... What else burns a hole though armoured targets???

Not this hoary old chestnut again...

Depleted uranium is used in some AP rounds (most notably for tank main
gun APFSDS, Phalanx anti-missile ammo, and the A-10's GAU-8A) because
it's very dense and there's a stockpile of the stuff (from nuclear fuel
production) that is looking for a use: the stuff is essentially free,
while tungsten (the other preferred penetrator material) is expensive.

DU is pyrophoric: that is, small particles spontaneously ignite in air.
Thus, when hitting a sufficiently solid target (like tank armour), the
fragments of DU from the penetrator will ignite. It looks dramatic, but
the additional effect on the target is usually marginal and it adds
little if anything to the damage done, since with tungsten those
fragments don't burn but ricochet around at supersonic velocity inside
the target.

It certainly doesn't "burn through" the target in any chemical or
thermal way, and it certainly doesn't penetrate armour better than
unarmoured targets. Armour penetration is at personal levels simple
metallurgy and stress analysis, and at vehicle levels hydrodynamics
(tank main gun rounds against armour behave like fluids, not solids, at
the strain rates and velocities involved).

The use of DU is being phased out by both the US and UK militaries, and
tungsten is returning to favour, because DU is difficult and expensive
to machine into shape and tungsten is marginally more effective in
service. As the demand for precision got greater, the cost of machining
the penetrators outweighed the material savings of using DU instead of
W.

The supposed primacy and mystical powers of depleted uranium are mostly
mythical. It works well, it does its job, but it's not magical.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 54
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:47:33 +1000
> 1. This whole thing about getting multiple rounds from one unit of
> orichalcum... IMHO each bullet should require the exact same amount of
> orichalcum, regardless of skill. That way, the cost will still be
> prohibitive, even if someone has a monstro skill.

Hmmm... I'd say, let them create multiple rounds from the unit. After
all, if their Firearms B/R *and* their Enchanting skills are high enough
that they're going to be able to save serious amounts of nuyen, they're
going to be lacking in Karma elsewhere - maybe their sorcery ain't so
good. Hey, you win some, you lose some. It all evens out.

> 2. Any size round should be allowable; If you can make a pistol bullet
> from something, you should be able to make a SR round, or shotgun or
> whatever. However, the entire bullet (sans propellant) should have to be
> made out of orichalcum, so the weight of the bullet/ 10g = number of
> units of orichalcum required.

That seemse relatively reasonably, but it's not just "weight of the
bullet" - afaik orichalcum would be so soft that you'd have to alloy it
with something. Hey, weapon foci aren't purely orichalcum, either.

> 3. The bullet can only be used once. Once it has been fired, it would
> have to re-created.

That, I agree on. And you *can't* recover enough of the orichalcum to
re-use it. Or, if you do, you have to make *another* Enchanting test
first, before you make the bullet, to "re-purify" the used Orichalcum.

Looking at this, it could conceivably take you three months to make one
bullet. Now, *that* is *not* unbalancing. :)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 55
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:49:48 +1000
> >If a non-sammie
> > wants to get orichlcum spurs, good on him; He's just going to dice a bit
> > more against spirits, and there always the question of just how astrally
> > active orichalcum is.
>
> Your whole premise is based on the fact you feel orichalcum is astrally
> active, even if it's not bonded. If that is the case, what keeps my
> projecting mage or spirit from grounding through the bullets in your clip
> and opening a whole case of damaging manipulation whoop-ass on your sammy?

Absolutely nothing. :) It just raises a bit more threat level in the game
- the person with the gun has to make sure that there's no-one in astral
who's gonna dump through his bullets, and astral mages have to make sure
there's no-one around who's going to shoot them when they thought they
were safe (awww, no armour in astral space, ouch ouch ouch).

Just adds to the fear level and means everyone has to think smarter/plan
better.


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 56
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:52:11 +1000
> FASA never intended a frontal assault on a hive either. Or a assualt of
> anykind period.

Doesn't "Missing Blood" count?


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 57
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:17:03 -0700
>Doesn't "Missing Blood" count?
>
Less than 50 bigs can be handled without trouble the original debate
concerned larger hive and comparing them to "Aliens" 150+ changes the whole
ball game.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 58
From: IEngelmann@***.COM
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:34:33 -0400
>>Doesn't "Missing Blood" count?
>>
>Less than 50 bigs can be handled without trouble the original debate
>concerned larger hive and comparing them to "Aliens" 150+ changes the whole
>ball game.

If you think you have to do it, do it. If not, let it be.

Ilja Engelmann
(Whisper, who thinks that mantis-spirits sometimes are quite useful and even
beautiful.)
Message no. 59
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@******.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets.
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:27:06 -0400
Marty[SMTP:s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU] wrote:
>> > Yeah, but the bugs STILL have Force, or Forcex2 *natural* armor on top
>> > of the immunity to normal weapons power... believe me; I asked FASAMike
>> > about that. That means that you have to have an ungodly strength to hurt
>> > the bigger ones (ie force 3+)... You also have to be very good, becasue
>> > the true forms get Reactionx2 or x3 for unarmed combat.
>>
>> The only get the immunity to normal weapons against firearms and explosions
>> (read under the manifestation power). The don't get it to melee, throwing
>> weapons or projectile weapons because these attacks carry the force of the
>> attacker's WILL. Use a compound bow, or get in and go toe-to-toe.
>>
>Yeah, but we're considering banning compound bows in our games.... We've
>had bad experiences with one.
>
>What happened is;
>- We had a troll PC, he had 15 strength...
>- He carried a compound bow with dikoted arrows. (19 M or S)
>- The silly fool had 3 for all his mental attributes.
>- He got possesed by some nasty critter, and the critter turned that
>fragging huge bow on us.
>- The critter got +2 to its TNs to use the bow, which meant that he only
>hit me with ONE succes. At that kind of TN, I had no chance even to dodge.
>- The arrow hit me in the back, went through the back armour (4), through
>me (4), and through the front armour (4). By that stage it still had enough
>power (7) to embed itself in a rock wall.
>
>Thankfully, some other freak in our party had a minigun and hit the troll
>with a full-auto burst... it was the only thing that we could do to stop
>him.
>
>Sorry, but I don't *ever* want that to happen to me again. If your
>character is less strong, than the power is lower, but most bugs still
>have a lot more than 4 armour.
>
>> Waaaahhh! Isn't that the idea? Bug spirits are supposed to be our first
>> taste of the Enemy. They're the things of nightmare's. One good sized boy
>> is supposed to be able to take out group if they don't play smart. Read the
>> novel Burning Bright, or 2XS. I play bug spirits like the Aliens, one of
>> those bad boys could shread a number of marines and still not break a sweat
>> (if they sweat). :o)
>>
>That's inccorect... Have you ever played Queen Euphoria?? It's basically
>Aliens in SR... The characters can survive that, but that was before the
>rules changed. The UB adventure is the same... The queen in that was
>unkillable under the bug city rules.
>
>I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be so
>hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure you
>couldn't... if you wanted to survive.
>
>> Don't want to look like I came at you. I just disagree with the Or. bullets
>> and your feeling of need for them. The fear and threat of bug spirits is
>> part of what I like about them, don't cheapen them with something like
>> "magic" bullets...
>>
>Oooh, that smarts...'magic bullets' indeed *grin*
>
>I feel the need for them because in my experience in Bug City a samurai
>is useless... and not everyone should have to be a full blown mage in
>order to be useful.
>

Bug city does not have to be a bug hunt. I ran a set of sessions where the PC's
were trapped in Chi-town when the wall went up, and they ran into bugs once!

And that was because they didn't want to run away. (They were after loot
(summoning supplies, mainly)).

The rest of the time, they spent worrying about the nastiest animal trapped in
the zone - man. (They got to be nasty too. Who says NPC's have all the fun.)

Seriously, the way I saw Bug City was as an opportunity for the GM to show the
players what happens when civilization goes away.

begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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end

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Orichalcum bullets., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!