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Message no. 1
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:35:56 +1000
> > Yeah, but we're considering banning compound bows in our games.... We've
> > had bad experiences with one.
> >

[snip explanation]

> > Sorry, but I don't *ever* want that to happen to me again. If your
> > character is less strong, than the power is lower, but most bugs still
> > have a lot more than 4 armour.
>
> So you're going to ban a weapon just so it can't be used by someone if the
> get influenced or mind-controlled? I'm sorry but thast just strikes me as
> so darn silly. Then to top it off, because you'll ban one effective weapon
> you've got to INVENT something else out of thin air to take it's place...
> :o)
>
Sorry, I kind of came across a bit rabid then.... There are several
factors contributing to why I personally do not want to see trolls (in
partuicular) using compounds bows. Detailed below.

> I guess this just seems so silly - "A compound bow nearly killed me, so
> we're thinking of banning them." What's next? Banning sniper rifles,
> banning spells, why not just ban the bug spirits and stop worrying about
> it. Or ban influence and mind-control abilities/spells so they can't be
> used on your team members?
>
Yeah, whatever. I was just relating a bad experience that I had with a
compound bow.

Here are the reasons I have come up with so far;

Game Balance;
- A bullet is resisted on Ballistic, which is normally higher than an
Arrow, which comes off Impact.
- At high strenths, you get better range off a bow than you do off
a sporting rifle.... (I seem to recall 1.5 klicks for the troll in the
previous example)

Mechanistic study:

Consider this.... If a character has a strength of 11, the bow does
a 14M base damage.... This equates to a sniper rifle bullet with one less
initial staging. Now, assume that the power level roughly equates to the
kinetic energy that the projectile has, or the potential that it has to do
damage (which makes a fair amount of sense). For the purposes of the
discussion, we'll assume an absolutely equal KE.

Now, the average sniper rifle bullet pushes the envelope of mach 3 if
it's good..... But for the purposes of the discussion, we'll assume a
mere mach 2.... That's 660 meters per second.

Now, if you assume that the bullet weighs 15 grams, and an arrow weighs a
generous 90 grams.. (from memory, the rules state less). That implies that
the velocity of the arrow is in the vicinity of 200 meters per second.

Do that calculation again using the weights stated in the rules, and a
mach 3 sniper rifle bullet..... (again from memory) you come up with a
velocity well in excess of the speed of sound. And then, what happens if
you increasethe power level of the weapon to the 18 that I mentioned???

My objection is not to the existence, or use, of the compound bow..... but
rather to the fact that they have no maximum power level of the attack,
and can therefore be easily more effective than a barret rifle.

Besides, what would you make the damned bow out of ???? Throwing knives and
shuriken get just as bizarre at high strengths... I challenge you to
throw a knife at the speed of sound.

If you have to rely on that kind of physically absurd weaponry to take
down the bug spirits, then why not beat them at their own game and
destroy them with something magical??


> > I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be so
> > hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure you
> > couldn't... if you wanted to survive.
>
> Guess our group has two different gaming styles. I take it that you
> shouldn't be wlatzing in a nuking a hive. Again I encourage you to read 2XS
> and Burning Bright, then also take a look at the module Double Exposure.
>
I have read Burning Bright 3 or 4 times, 2XS about as many, and played
Double Exposure twice. I still maintain my views.... I'm not some newbie
neophyte to the gaming system; I've played it, to the near exclusion of
everything else, since it came out in Australia.

> Also look at it this way, if a group of runners should be able to take out
> a hive according to your logic. Why did Ares have to use that nuke in
> Chicago, and why haven't the UCAS military forces just mowed right over the
> bugs that are left? Bugs are tough, they're a small taste of the Enemy.
> You're trying to candy-coat and down-play them way too much...
>

I said A hive.... not THE hive.

Don't use the fragging bullets if you don't like them. In our campaign
there is a need for them, because we do not play super characters. My
character is the second toughest in the group and I *still* took a
moderate wound from a single light pistol shot. It's the way I like to
play......

I don't think that characters of our ability should be encountering bugs,
but if we do, I don't want to have to make my character so good that the
rest of the critters in the world are no threat. Orichalcum bullets do
the job because they are reasonably selctive in what they can be used
against, and they are NOT, repeat: NOT, one shot insta-kill weapons.

> > I feel the need for them because in my experience in Bug City a samurai
> > is useless... and not everyone should have to be a full blown mage in
> > order to be useful.
>
> The mundanes and Sammy's in our group have done pretty well against against
> true-form solidiers when they had to. They found out the secret pretty
> quick though...play smart don't try to play hard.
>
[snip]

Blah Blah..... I'm playing a campaign where four enemies have died in
four months of game time. Three of those kills were due to one PC with a
thing for vengeance (I'll let her defend her charater herself), and my
character threw another out of a hotel window because it was the only
thing we could think of in the circumstances.

We've got the other alternatives down pat, pretty much.


Bleach

PS: I'm in a bad mood right now, and under other circumstances I might
have phrased some of the comments differently. Semi-apologies.
Message no. 2
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:13:25 -0700
<SNIP>
> Game Balance;
> - A bullet is resisted on Ballistic, which is normally higher than
an
> Arrow, which comes off Impact.

Which I believe is the reason (and a good argument) for bows in the game.

> - At high strenths, you get better range off a bow than you do off
> a sporting rifle.... (I seem to recall 1.5 klicks for the troll in the
> previous example)

Yep, it was used by the Troll PhysAd in my game quite effectively.

> Mechanistic study:
>
> Consider this.... If a character has a strength of 11, the bow
does
> a 14M base damage.... This equates to a sniper rifle bullet with one less
> initial staging. Now, assume that the power level roughly equates to the
> kinetic energy that the projectile has, or the potential that it has to
do
> damage (which makes a fair amount of sense). For the purposes of the
> discussion, we'll assume an absolutely equal KE.

OK...

> Now, the average sniper rifle bullet pushes the envelope of mach 3 if
> it's good..... But for the purposes of the discussion, we'll assume a
> mere mach 2.... That's 660 meters per second.

OK again...

> Now, if you assume that the bullet weighs 15 grams, and an arrow weighs a
> generous 90 grams.. (from memory, the rules state less). That implies
that
> the velocity of the arrow is in the vicinity of 200 meters per second.

Still with you.

> Do that calculation again using the weights stated in the rules, and a
> mach 3 sniper rifle bullet..... (again from memory) you come up with a
> velocity well in excess of the speed of sound. And then, what happens if
> you increasethe power level of the weapon to the 18 that I mentioned???

It makes it harder to resist the damage.

> My objection is not to the existence, or use, of the compound bow.....
but
> rather to the fact that they have no maximum power level of the attack,
> and can therefore be easily more effective than a barret rifle.

So buy one instead of the gun...

Also, the physad ability of missle pary will work again these weapons, but
not bullets. Plus, they're an equalizer against the immunity manifest
spirits get to ranged combat. But I fogot, you want to ditch them. Eeeesh!

> Besides, what would you make the damned bow out of ????

I'm sure a world that is capable of cyber/bioware and where something like
orichalcum exists can come up with something.

>Throwing knives and
> shuriken get just as bizarre at high strengths... I challenge you to
> throw a knife at the speed of sound.

I'm not a Troll PhysAd in an Awakened World provided my by a Fantasy Gaming
System. <shrug>

> If you have to rely on that kind of physically absurd weaponry to take
> down the bug spirits, then why not beat them at their own game and
> destroy them with something magical??

You can. Weapon Foci, Spells, Killing Hands. I just still don't understand
you tossing a bow and having to concoct orichalcum bullets to make up the
difference.

> > > I know the bugs are meant to be hard, but they were never meant to be
so
> > > hard that you couldn't take on a hive, or FASA would have made sure
you
> > > couldn't... if you wanted to survive.
> >
> > Guess our group has two different gaming styles. I take it that you
> > shouldn't be wlatzing in a nuking a hive. Again I encourage you to read
2XS
> > and Burning Bright, then also take a look at the module Double
Exposure.
> >
> I have read Burning Bright 3 or 4 times, 2XS about as many, and played
> Double Exposure twice. I still maintain my views.... I'm not some newbie
> neophyte to the gaming system; I've played it, to the near exclusion of
> everything else, since it came out in Australia.

OK, so why do you maintain FASA shouldn't make tings too tough for a group
that wants to kick open the doors and go full frontal on any hive out
there. Keep in mind Area had to resort to a nuke.

> > Also look at it this way, if a group of runners should be able to take
out
> > a hive according to your logic. Why did Ares have to use that nuke in
> > Chicago, and why haven't the UCAS military forces just mowed right over
the
> > bugs that are left? Bugs are tough, they're a small taste of the
Enemy.
> > You're trying to candy-coat and down-play them way too much...
> >
>
> I said A hive.... not THE hive.
>
> Don't use the fragging bullets if you don't like them. In our campaign
> there is a need for them, because we do not play super characters. My
> character is the second toughest in the group and I *still* took a
> moderate wound from a single light pistol shot. It's the way I like to
> play......

Why do your magic bullets and full frontal assaults on hive's sound so
contradictory to that above statement?

We won't be using your bullets. They don't make sense in my GM view of the
world. No super PC's here either, more into role-playing and not so much
that gung-ho, hive stomping attitude.

> I don't think that characters of our ability should be encountering bugs,
> but if we do, I don't want to have to make my character so good that the
> rest of the critters in the world are no threat. Orichalcum bullets do
> the job because they are reasonably selctive in what they can be used
> against, and they are NOT, repeat: NOT, one shot insta-kill weapons.

Our character's don't want to encounter Bug Spirits either, their run ins
with them thus far have been bad enough. Magic bullets aren't needed as an
equalizer. Not to mention your rules for them would open up too many
questions, too many areas for abuse and uncertainty. Besides, we haven't
trashed bows and throwing weapons, so they're available to balance the
fight against spirits.

> > > I feel the need for them because in my experience in Bug City a
samurai
> > > is useless... and not everyone should have to be a full blown mage in
> > > order to be useful.
> >
> > The mundanes and Sammy's in our group have done pretty well against
against
> > true-form solidiers when they had to. They found out the secret pretty
> > quick though...play smart don't try to play hard.
> >
> [snip]
>
> Bleach
>
> PS: I'm in a bad mood right now, and under other circumstances I might
> have phrased some of the comments differently. Semi-apologies.

Nice to add this at the end. ;o)

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 3
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:45:18 +1000
> > Do that calculation again using the weights stated in the rules, and a
> > mach 3 sniper rifle bullet..... (again from memory) you come up with a
> > velocity well in excess of the speed of sound. And then, what happens if
> > you increasethe power level of the weapon to the 18 that I mentioned???
>
> It makes it harder to resist the damage.
>

Pardon??? I think you must have missed the point of my post. You have no
conceptual difficulties in imaging an arrow going at greater than the speed
of sound?????

Does anyone else out there have my kind of problem,or am I alone?

> > My objection is not to the existence, or use, of the compound bow.....
> but
> > rather to the fact that they have no maximum power level of the attack,
> > and can therefore be easily more effective than a barret rifle.
>
> So buy one instead of the gun...
>
I do not believe that you *can* make a bow more effective than a gun, or
no one would have seen a need to invent a gun at all.

> Also, the physad ability of missle pary will work again these weapons, but
> not bullets. Plus, they're an equalizer against the immunity manifest
> spirits get to ranged combat. But I fogot, you want to ditch them. Eeeesh!
>

And every phys. ad. has missile parry? And every player is a phys adept?


> > Besides, what would you make the damned bow out of ????
>
> I'm sure a world that is capable of cyber/bioware and where something like
> orichalcum exists can come up with something.
>
Your faith is touching.... go ask an engineer how he'd do it and watch
him laugh. I sure as hell wouldn't want to get my arm in the way of the
bowstring when the arrow was fired.

> You can. Weapon Foci, Spells, Killing Hands. I just still don't understand
> you tossing a bow and having to concoct orichalcum bullets to make up the
> difference.
>
I'm not tossing the bow. Whether or not I am stupid enough to let a
troll carry a compound bow in my game, I *still* want the bullets.

All of the above things you mentioned need magic to use... That's about
99% of the population ruled out there. 98% even if you count the trolls
with the compound bows.

> OK, so why do you maintain FASA shouldn't make tings too tough for a group
> that wants to kick open the doors and go full frontal on any hive out
> there. Keep in mind Area had to resort to a nuke.
>
What else can you do to the fraggers??? I challenge you to come up with a
decent and generally applicable plan that doesn't involve combat.

BTW... the nuke was the main north american hive. They also did not except
the opposition.

> We won't be using your bullets. They don't make sense in my GM view of the
> world. No super PC's here either, more into role-playing and not so much
> that gung-ho, hive stomping attitude.
>
Whatever.... you want your troll to be able to throw knives and fire
arrows faster than the speed of sound, instead. I guess you can climb
walls by jabbing your spurs into them and levering yourself up, too?

> > PS: I'm in a bad mood right now, and under other circumstances I might
> > have phrased some of the comments differently. Semi-apologies.
>
> Nice to add this at the end. ;o)
>
that way you get the full force of my ire, unmodifed by an apology.
Message no. 4
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:03:06 -0700
<SNIP>
> Pardon??? I think you must have missed the point of my post. You have
no
> conceptual difficulties in imaging an arrow going at greater than the
speed
> of sound?????

Don't know, I've never witnessed a Troll PhysAd shooting one. :o)

> Does anyone else out there have my kind of problem,or am I alone?

If you're going to try to get on a conceptual kick, you're going to need to
toss a large chunk of magic and teh S/R environment with it...

<SNIP>
> I do not believe that you *can* make a bow more effective than a gun, or
> no one would have seen a need to invent a gun at all.

Guns have a lower concealability for one thing. Secondly think of when guns
wre being invented, most of the armor back then was getting effective
against bows. Also, nowadays permits and licenses are alot lighter on bows
then guns, and the same is true for the S/R universe. Also, some people
just feel bows have a unique kind of class.

Not to mention, it seems to me you have more fear of a bow in your game
then a gun...

> > Also, the physad ability of missle pary will work again these weapons,
but
> > not bullets. Plus, they're an equalizer against the immunity manifest
> > spirits get to ranged combat. But I fogot, you want to ditch them.
Eeeesh!
> >
>
> And every phys. ad. has missile parry? And every player is a phys adept?

Nope, but NO player will be parrying bullets...

>
> > > Besides, what would you make the damned bow out of ????
> >
> > I'm sure a world that is capable of cyber/bioware and where something
like
> > orichalcum exists can come up with something.
> >
> Your faith is touching.... go ask an engineer how he'd do it and watch
> him laugh. I sure as hell wouldn't want to get my arm in the way of the
> bowstring when the arrow was fired.

And while I'm at it, you can be asking a metalugrist to stir up some
orichalcum, or a surgeon to implant some Wired Reflexes, or a computer
engineer to throw together a cyber-deck, or just simply try to find a Mage
to ask anything...

> > You can. Weapon Foci, Spells, Killing Hands. I just still don't
understand
> > you tossing a bow and having to concoct orichalcum bullets to make up
the
> > difference.
> >
> I'm not tossing the bow. Whether or not I am stupid enough to let a
> troll carry a compound bow in my game, I *still* want the bullets.

Still don't understand what you have with the Troll carrying a compound
bow, a Sammy with an HMG can be influenced just as well...

> All of the above things you mentioned need magic to use... That's about
> 99% of the population ruled out there. 98% even if you count the trolls
> with the compound bows.

So the mundanes may have a harder time rolling off of WILL, it can still be
done. There are times when magic capable PC's have to take a back seat too.
It happens. Maybe it's just the difference in our groups. <shrug>

> > OK, so why do you maintain FASA shouldn't make tings too tough for a
group
> > that wants to kick open the doors and go full frontal on any hive out
> > there. Keep in mind Area had to resort to a nuke.
> >
> What else can you do to the fraggers??? I challenge you to come up with a
> decent and generally applicable plan that doesn't involve combat.

Thank-you. That's the point of them, they're supposed to have just that
effect. But maybe that's just in the realm I GM.

> > We won't be using your bullets. They don't make sense in my GM view of
the
> > world. No super PC's here either, more into role-playing and not so
much
> > that gung-ho, hive stomping attitude.
> >
> Whatever.... you want your troll to be able to throw knives and fire
> arrows faster than the speed of sound, instead. I guess you can climb
> walls by jabbing your spurs into them and levering yourself up, too?

If you want everything in S/R to make perfect logical sense based off 1996
reality, you must stay awake at nights. It's a FANTASY game, there is MAGIC
and TECHNOLOGY we do not have yet involved...

> > > PS: I'm in a bad mood right now, and under other circumstances I
might
> > > have phrased some of the comments differently. Semi-apologies.
> >
> > Nice to add this at the end. ;o)
> >
> that way you get the full force of my ire, unmodifed by an apology.

Ohhh, and I feel so scathed...

This is getting silly, and I'm not on this list to argue. You've stated
that you need to use the "magic" bullets in your game. I have stated they
don't make sense from my GM perspective and will not be using them in my
game. It's more than obvious to everyone we won't agree on it. 'Nuff said
before it just degrades in to something personal.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 5
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:41:25 -0700
<SNIP>

> Pardon??? I think you must have missed the point of my post. You have no
> conceptual difficulties in imaging an arrow going at greater than the speed
> of sound?????

> Does anyone else out there have my kind of problem,or am I alone?

Remember, you're example used a char of STR-11 ! Do you know how strong
that is?? Think of the strongest person you know, and make them nearly
twice as strong. That is how strong strength 11 is.

> And every phys. ad. has missile parry? And every player is a phys adept?

Every player has a str-11 and a compound bow?

-Tom
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:17:43 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.961019173217.5626E-100000@*****.student.gu.edu
.au>, Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>>
>I do not believe that you *can* make a bow more effective than a gun, or
>no one would have seen a need to invent a gun at all.

A broadhead arrow is rather better than a bullet both at penetrating
soft body armour, and at causing injury once through the armour. The
limitation of having to fit through a barrel constrains you greatly.

Comparing the kinetic energies is pointless for such disparate weapons:
a bow has less energy than a .22LR, yet you can hunt deer with a bow: no
responsible hunter would dare use a .22LR for the job.

>Your faith is touching.... go ask an engineer how he'd do it and watch
>him laugh. I sure as hell wouldn't want to get my arm in the way of the
>bowstring when the arrow was fired.

Wear a bracer with a trauma pad behind it.
--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@******.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:02:13 -0400
Marty[SMTP:s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU] wrote:
>> > Yeah, but we're considering banning compound bows in our games.... We've
>> > had bad experiences with one.
>> >
>
>[snip explanation]
>
>> > Sorry, but I don't *ever* want that to happen to me again. If your
>> > character is less strong, than the power is lower, but most bugs still
>> > have a lot more than 4 armour.
>>
>> So you're going to ban a weapon just so it can't be used by someone if the
>> get influenced or mind-controlled? I'm sorry but thast just strikes me as
>> so darn silly. Then to top it off, because you'll ban one effective weapon
>> you've got to INVENT something else out of thin air to take it's place...
>> :o)
>>
>Sorry, I kind of came across a bit rabid then.... There are several
>factors contributing to why I personally do not want to see trolls (in
>partuicular) using compounds bows. Detailed below.
>
>> I guess this just seems so silly - "A compound bow nearly killed me, so
>> we're thinking of banning them." What's next? Banning sniper rifles,
>> banning spells, why not just ban the bug spirits and stop worrying about
>> it. Or ban influence and mind-control abilities/spells so they can't be
>> used on your team members?
>>
>Yeah, whatever. I was just relating a bad experience that I had with a
>compound bow.
>
>Here are the reasons I have come up with so far;
>
>Game Balance;
>- A bullet is resisted on Ballistic, which is normally higher than an
>Arrow, which comes off Impact.
>- At high strenths, you get better range off a bow than you do off
>a sporting rifle.... (I seem to recall 1.5 klicks for the troll in the
>previous example)
>
>Mechanistic study:
>
> Consider this.... If a character has a strength of 11, the bow does
>a 14M base damage.... This equates to a sniper rifle bullet with one less
>initial staging. Now, assume that the power level roughly equates to the
>kinetic energy that the projectile has, or the potential that it has to do
>damage (which makes a fair amount of sense). For the purposes of the
>discussion, we'll assume an absolutely equal KE.

Actually, I find that (game-mechanic-wise) Power is a measure of armor-
penentration ability (only,) and Damage code is a better representation of
kinetic energy transfer. (Yes, I know that the damage codes of firearms don't
agree with me. I don't agree that the best firearms for shooting a hole in a
wall is a Predator II. (remeber, power is the on;y factor in bullets vs
barriers.) I changed the damage codes to better model this. It ended up making
not a whole heck of a lot of difference. Re-read the barrier penentration rules
again, and the whole way armor now works, and then tell me why a single shot
from a handgun has a better chance of doing damage than a single shot from
an assault rifle.)

>Now, the average sniper rifle bullet pushes the envelope of mach 3 if
>it's good..... But for the purposes of the discussion, we'll assume a
>mere mach 2.... That's 660 meters per second.
>
>Now, if you assume that the bullet weighs 15 grams, and an arrow weighs a
>generous 90 grams.. (from memory, the rules state less). That implies that
>the velocity of the arrow is in the vicinity of 200 meters per second.
>
>Do that calculation again using the weights stated in the rules, and a
>mach 3 sniper rifle bullet..... (again from memory) you come up with a
>velocity well in excess of the speed of sound. And then, what happens if
>you increasethe power level of the weapon to the 18 that I mentioned???
>
>My objection is not to the existence, or use, of the compound bow..... but
>rather to the fact that they have no maximum power level of the attack,
>and can therefore be easily more effective than a barret rifle.
>

Yep. But remember, a bow does damage according to it's Str min, not the Str of
the user. If a troll picks up the bow I pull (approx a 20 lb pull), he's gonna do only as
much damage as I would with that bow.

Don't allow ridiculous Str Min bows. I'd set the max bow str min at 8 or so.

(X-bows are a little different, in that you could put a motor assist on one.)

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end

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Orichalcum bullets. (and the compound bow), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.