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Message no. 1
From: Ted Cabeen <cabeen@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:44:46 -0700
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At 01:10 PM 8/18/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>| Just a small question, it has no particular importance but
>| I was just wondering...
>|
>| What happens to Orichalcum , a supposed magical element
>| when the magic cylces down then? does it become inert or
something?
>
>Unknown.
>It doesn't break down into it's component parts, because there is an
>Orichalcum MINE in wales.
>
>The only "Natural" formation in the world.
>(Although I tend to thing it was placed there at the end of the 4th
world so
>they'd have plenty to work with when the 6th came around, in
preparation for
>the Horrors).

If you think about it though. The Oricalcum in SR is very different
from ED orichalcum. To me it seems like SR oricalcum is actually ED
True Earth. There's no Fire or Air or Water in SR Oricalcum so it
seems like it's probably just true earth. Also, in ED creating
Oricalcum takes blood magic, but in SR is dosen't. If there was a
way to create Oricalcum without blood magic, wouldn't the ED people
know it already??

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--
Ted Cabeen http://shadowland.rh.uchicago.edu cabeen@******.com
Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key secabeen@******.uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon cococabeen@***.com
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626@**********.com
Message no. 2
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:04:50 +0100
|If you think about it though. The Oricalcum in SR is very different
|from ED orichalcum. To me it seems like SR oricalcum is actually ED
|True Earth. There's no Fire or Air or Water in SR Oricalcum so it
|seems like it's probably just true earth. Also, in ED creating
|Oricalcum takes blood magic, but in SR is dosen't. If there was a
|way to create Oricalcum without blood magic, wouldn't the ED people
|know it already??

I think I'd disagree here.
I think it's the same substance, but using magic, substitution is possible.

Think about it.

What are the main constituents of Orichalcum (in shadowrun)?

Mercury can represent water.
Gold can represent fire.
(I've forgotten the others)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:46:53 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 16:54:15 EDT, you write:

> If you think about it though. The Oricalcum in SR is very different
> from ED orichalcum. To me it seems like SR oricalcum is actually ED
> True Earth. There's no Fire or Air or Water in SR Oricalcum so it
> seems like it's probably just true earth. Also, in ED creating
> Oricalcum takes blood magic, but in SR is dosen't. If there was a
> way to create Oricalcum without blood magic, wouldn't the ED people
> know it already??

Maybe not .. have you considered that it takes 4 metals to create Orichalchum
... hmm ... four elements ... sounds to me like Orichalchum is not True Earth
... but a True Element ...

The components ...

Mercury ... Water
Gold ... Fire
Silver ... Air
Copper ... Earth

Radicalization could be inferred to mean that someone could be making the
components into very pure elements ... what it would take to make them pure
True Elements would be something to see ...

BTW .. if I got the components and what they could represent goofed up ...
help ?!?!
Message no. 4
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:22:24 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 16:51:59 EDT, you write:

> If you think about it though. The Oricalcum in SR is very different
> from ED orichalcum. To me it seems like SR oricalcum is actually ED
> True Earth. There's no Fire or Air or Water in SR Oricalcum so it
> seems like it's probably just true earth.

Nope. I understand your theory and point of view, but you aren't looking at
the metals involved. IIRC, orichalcum is made from gold, silver, copper, and
mercury. Gold represents fire, copper represents earth, silver represents
water, and mercury represents air. These are semi-historical representations
- mercury wasn't a very common metal a thousand years ago.

Wolfstar
Message no. 5
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:20:16 +0100
In article <970827162044_183254924@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
> Nope. I understand your theory and point of view, but you aren't looking at
>the metals involved. IIRC, orichalcum is made from gold, silver, copper, and
>mercury. Gold represents fire, copper represents earth, silver represents
>water, and mercury represents air. These are semi-historical representations
>- mercury wasn't a very common metal a thousand years ago.

Unheard of, if I remember right. I don't recall seeing mercury mentioned
before about 1550 or so.



--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 6
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:36:45 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 16:55:22 EDT, cabeen@******.COM (Ted Cabeen)
writes:

>
> If you think about it though. The Oricalcum in SR is very different
> from ED orichalcum. To me it seems like SR oricalcum is actually ED
> True Earth. There's no Fire or Air or Water in SR Oricalcum so it
> seems like it's probably just true earth. Also, in ED creating
> Oricalcum takes blood magic, but in SR is dosen't. If there was a
> way to create Oricalcum without blood magic, wouldn't the ED people
> know it already??
>
Just for the record, the "Fire, Air and Water" that you are referring to in
ED Orichalcum is "representationally" placed with the elements that are used
in the formation of Orichalcum in SR. Copper, Gold, Silver, Mercury. Silver
is Water, Gold is Fire (IIRC). Copper is Earth. Mercury is Air. I might
have two of them flipped (mercury and silver), as I am really going blank on
this (sorry, my Alchemists Handbook I picked up a few years back is missing).

The concept of "True Elements" being used to make Orichalcum in SR involves a
LOT more than just a standard enchanting test, as outlined in the Grimoire
(page 23). It would involve Quests of Power to each of the representational
metaplanes, probably with quest numbers being equal to the number of FINISHED
units that the user is working on. I LONG time ago considered doing this
with Binder, but decided the game really didn't need that much in an overall
picture.

However, the years are advancing and Binder is getting bored again...so who
knows.
-K
Message no. 7
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 04:02:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 21:08:37 EDT, you write:

> Nope. I understand your theory and point of view, but you aren't looking
at
> the metals involved. IIRC, orichalcum is made from gold, silver, copper,
and
> mercury. Gold represents fire, copper represents earth, silver represents
> water, and mercury represents air. These are semi-historical
representations
> - mercury wasn't a very common metal a thousand years ago.

Ah .. but what did they use ... and perhaps they did use Mercury .. it was
just called something else ...
Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:51:08 +0100
|In article <970827162044_183254924@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
|<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
|> Nope. I understand your theory and point of view, but you aren't looking at
|>the metals involved. IIRC, orichalcum is made from gold, silver, copper, and
|>mercury. Gold represents fire, copper represents earth, silver represents
|>water, and mercury represents air. These are semi-historical representations
|>- mercury wasn't a very common metal a thousand years ago.
|
|Unheard of, if I remember right. I don't recall seeing mercury mentioned
|before about 1550 or so.

I'm pretty sure Quicksilver was known before then.
(They just probably didn't CALL it mercury...)

If you think about it, all it requires is heat to break down Mercury
salts....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:55:15 +0100
|Just for the record, the "Fire, Air and Water" that you are referring to in
|ED Orichalcum is "representationally" placed with the elements that are used
|in the formation of Orichalcum in SR. Copper, Gold, Silver, Mercury. Silver
|is Water, Gold is Fire (IIRC). Copper is Earth. Mercury is Air. I might
|have two of them flipped (mercury and silver), as I am really going blank on
|this (sorry, my Alchemists Handbook I picked up a few years back is missing).

There is one weakness in shadowrun Orichalcum that I just realised....
Where's the True Wood?

This would imply that the Orichalcum in the "Mines" is of a purer, pore
powerfull form than that manufactured from radicals in 205x....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:43:03 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 04:02:12 -0400 Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM> writes:

>Ah .. but what did they use ... and perhaps they did use Mercury .. it
>was
>just called something else ...


Yep. They would have called it quicksilver.


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 11
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:28:49 -0005
On 28 Aug 97 at 13:55, Spike wrote:

> |Just for the record, the "Fire, Air and Water" that you are referring to
in
> |ED Orichalcum is "representationally" placed with the elements that are
used
> |in the formation of Orichalcum in SR. Copper, Gold, Silver, Mercury. Silver
> |is Water, Gold is Fire (IIRC). Copper is Earth. Mercury is Air. I might
> |have two of them flipped (mercury and silver), as I am really going blank on
> |this (sorry, my Alchemists Handbook I picked up a few years back is missing).
>
> There is one weakness in shadowrun Orichalcum that I just realised....
> Where's the True Wood?
>
> This would imply that the Orichalcum in the "Mines" is of a purer, pore
> powerfull form than that manufactured from radicals in 205x....
>
I was wondering if anyone else had thought of that. Might explain why
there's such a fuss being made over the mined variety, and why certain
individuals seem to be willing to pay so much for it.
However, IMHO, I think trying to match up SR Orichalcum and ED Orichalcum
is going to be purely academic and probably futile. The games are
different and a lot of material in ED was written without much thought for
SR. Not everything is going to match up.

--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R
Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:43:34 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 12:39:59 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

> There is one weakness in shadowrun Orichalcum that I just realised....
> Where's the True Wood?
>
> This would imply that the Orichalcum in the "Mines" is of a purer, pore
> powerfull form than that manufactured from radicals in 205x....
>
I'm not so certain that I agree with that analogy. Sure, the stuff in the
mines would be more potentially powerful, but it would still require some
work to extract it in a much more "usable form". Please remember, I am
ignoring the ED crossover's entirely.

And as for "True Wood", that is part of a slightly different
"theology" of
magical practice. If you read "The Lucifer Deck", by Lisa Smedman, you get a
vague idea of the various directions that magical philosophy and the
importance of their various elemental representations can take.

BTW, after a conversation with some friends on the subject of "Orichalcum"
last night, a question came up. If Orichalcum could be processed in a
"purer" form, something made directly from the Elements themselves, would
that then constitute a "Fifth Element", that being "Life"?

-K (who is trying to make some final decisions on his Enchanting Rules before
posting them)
Message no. 13
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:07:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 12:40:00 EDT, you write:

> There is one weakness in shadowrun Orichalcum that I just realised....
> Where's the True Wood?
>

There is a mentioning of it in the Underworld Souorcebook when talking about
Wu-xing magic (sic, I think) ...

The element of Wood is referred to dealing with detection magics .. there is
one thing only ... if I remember correctly, wood actually means light in the
chinese world ... wuxing magic is used in china
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:21:48 +0100
|BTW, after a conversation with some friends on the subject of "Orichalcum"
|last night, a question came up. If Orichalcum could be processed in a
|"purer" form, something made directly from the Elements themselves, would
|that then constitute a "Fifth Element", that being "Life"?

I think that exactly what "True wood" represents.... Life.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:16:10 -0600
Spike wrote:
|
| |BTW, after a conversation with some friends on the subject of "Orichalcum"
| |last night, a question came up. If Orichalcum could be processed in a
| |"purer" form, something made directly from the Elements themselves, would
| |that then constitute a "Fifth Element", that being "Life"?
|
| I think that exactly what "True wood" represents.... Life.

<ponders> So if you make a magic item using the four elements you
have to spend karma (life) to bond it to yourself. But, if you used
the five elements anyone could use it. Of course, true wood isn't
available right now (in SR). But that could be the focus of one hell
of an adventure, trying to find some true wood.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:07:44 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-29 10:23:46 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

>
> I think that exactly what "True wood" represents.... Life.
>
not quite, but close...and airwisp mentioned it in one of his posts. What I
believe it was, as my books are a LONG way from me at the moment, is that
"Wood" is partially representative of spirit, not necessarily life. Life is
the blending of the true elements AND the spirit, IMHO...
-K
Message no. 17
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:11:04 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 08:56:07 EDT, you write:

> |Just for the record, the "Fire, Air and Water" that you are referring to
in
> |ED Orichalcum is "representationally" placed with the elements that are
used
> |in the formation of Orichalcum in SR. Copper, Gold, Silver, Mercury.
Silver
> |is Water, Gold is Fire (IIRC). Copper is Earth. Mercury is Air. I
might
> |have two of them flipped (mercury and silver), as I am really going blank
on
> |this (sorry, my Alchemists Handbook I picked up a few years back is
missing).
>
> There is one weakness in shadowrun Orichalcum that I just realised....
> Where's the True Wood?

Not necessary. Orichalcum is created through an Alchemical Process, and Wood
isn't recognized as one of the classical alchemical elements. In fact, IIRC,
the only location in the world that acknowledges wood as a life element is
the Orient.

> This would imply that the Orichalcum in the "Mines" is of a purer, pore
> powerfull form than that manufactured from radicals in 205x....

Yup. Sure makes you wonder what you could do with that stuff, eh?

Wolfstar
Message no. 18
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orichalcum = True Earth?
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:58 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 08:43:17 EDT, you write:

> >mercury. Gold represents fire, copper represents earth, silver represents
> >water, and mercury represents air. These are semi-historical
representations
> >- mercury wasn't a very common metal a thousand years ago.
>
> Unheard of, if I remember right. I don't recall seeing mercury mentioned
> before about 1550 or so.

Whichever, (did you check as quicksilver?) I did say semi-historical. And
the comparison can be drawn by the name of the god the metal is named after.

Wolfstar

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