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From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:03:41 -0500

Message no. 1 :Bonehead question from Rat... (I really should know this, since I'm
:a technical writer in Real Life and *should* know copyright
:law at least a little bit, but...):
:
:I own the original of this picture. I bought it fair and
:square from Jim Nelson, the artist. Does that mean I have
:the right to say whether or not it can be on the shirt, or
:does Jim still own "intellectual property rights" to it?
:(Or maybe FASA does, if it was done as a 'work for hire'
:for them.)

Did you SIGN anything? Some artists DO stipulate that reproduction
rights do NOT come with an artwork, and are retained by the artist, or
another person, but you have to explicitely stipulate that at time of sale
for it to stcik. Intellectual property rights are transfered along with the
origianl artwork, unless there is some other arrangement. This is why art
museums make all the money of selling posters of art by living artists, even
when they buy artwork 3rd or fourth hand.
In this case, I don't think Jim could have sold the art if FASA still
retained exclusive image rights. I'm kicking myself for not buying some of
the (really cheap!) B+W artwork for use on my web page.

:If the former, I'll freely give permission to use it (as long
:as it doesn't leave my possession during the scanning/
:whatever process, of course.) If the latter, then I guess
:it would take getting Jim's/FASA's permission to use it.

I'd ask Jim anyhow, just out of respect. Even if you were legally free
to use the image as you wish, if it annoyed him, it might affect his
willingness to sell art to fans in the future. Myself, I expect he'd be
flattered.

Mongoose

From:	Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:44:39 -0700

Message no. 2 > From: "Mongoose" <m0ng005e@*********.com>

>
>
> Did you SIGN anything? Some artists DO stipulate that reproduction
> rights do NOT come with an artwork, and are retained by the artist, or
> another person, but you have to explicitely stipulate that at time of sale
> for it to stcik. Intellectual property rights are transfered along with the
> origianl artwork, unless there is some other arrangement. This is why art
> museums make all the money of selling posters of art by living artists, even
> when they buy artwork 3rd or fourth hand.

The only thing I signed was the little slip of paper you have
to sign to buy something from the art show. There was no legal
mumbo-jumbo involved.

> In this case, I don't think Jim could have sold the art if FASA still
> retained exclusive image rights. I'm kicking myself for not buying some of
> the (really cheap!) B+W artwork for use on my web page.
>

<grin> I bought a couple of those...get there early, though,
if you want to get the good stuff. Most of it was gone by the
time I came back later on Thursday.

>
> I'd ask Jim anyhow, just out of respect. Even if you were legally free
> to use the image as you wish, if it annoyed him, it might affect his
> willingness to sell art to fans in the future. Myself, I expect he'd be
> flattered.
>

Oh, I wouldn't think of doing it without asking Jim. I
just wanted to know where I stand WRT giving permission
myself.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<

From:	Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:21:14 +1000

Message no. 3 > Did you SIGN anything? Some artists DO stipulate that reproduction
>rights do NOT come with an artwork, and are retained by the artist, or
>another person, but you have to explicitely stipulate that at time of sale
>for it to stcik. Intellectual property rights are transfered along with the
>origianl artwork, unless there is some other arrangement. This is why art
>museums make all the money of selling posters of art by living artists, even
>when they buy artwork 3rd or fourth hand.

Are you sure?

I always thought that intellectual property rights *always* belong to the
artist. The artist may grant you a license to reproduce that
art/music/writing, but the intellectual rights to it always belong to them.
[?]

Intellectual Property Copyright is a highly different concept, as far as I
understand, to Reproduction Copyright. You may own the rights to reproduce
it, but you do not necessary have the Intellectual Copyright.

Then again, I'm merely extrapolating facts from my experience as a musician
rather than as a visual artist. However, I can't see why it would be that
much different [viz - talking outta my arse].

So indeed it may be the case that you gain Reproductive Copyright with an
Original, and that may be a convention of Copyright Law with reference to
Visual Artists. But it seems rather out-dated/odd/dispowering for the
original artiste.

care,
s.

---------------------------------------------------------
Stuart Willis
Director, Kalcormx World Empire
CEO, Kalcormx Media Group

Phone: (02) 9481 0719
Fax: (02) 9850 6740
E-mail: god@***.com <mailto:god@***.com>

Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
necessarily represent those of the Kalcormx World Empire.

---------------------------------------------------------

From:	Naughty Jonny naughty@********.com.au
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:56:11 +1000

Message no. 4 Stuart M. Willis wrote:

> > Did you SIGN anything? Some artists DO stipulate that reproduction
> >rights do NOT come with an artwork, and are retained by the artist, or
> >another person, but you have to explicitely stipulate that at time of sale
> >for it to stcik. Intellectual property rights are transfered along with the
> >origianl artwork, unless there is some other arrangement. This is why art
> >museums make all the money of selling posters of art by living artists, even
> >when they buy artwork 3rd or fourth hand.

I must admit, I'm curious. I bought a Neil Gaiman DC Comics page and
didn't sign anything except for the credit card receipt. There was a stamp
on the back that said that it couldn't be reproduced without the permission
of the copyright owner, but is that me or DC?

I'd assume that it was, but I didn't sign anything saying I accepted it, and
it *is* a piece of origional artwork.

Hmmm!

Jon.

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:20:49 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 5 Naughty Jonny wrote:
/
/ I must admit, I'm curious. I bought a Neil Gaiman DC Comics page and
/ didn't sign anything except for the credit card receipt. There was a stamp
/ on the back that said that it couldn't be reproduced without the permission
/ of the copyright owner, but is that me or DC?
/
/ I'd assume that it was, but I didn't sign anything saying I accepted it, and
/ it *is* a piece of origional artwork.

I spoke with a co-worker who has to deal with copywrite on a regular
basis and she was under the impression that unless the creator
specifically (in writing) transfers the copywrite, that the creator
retains the copywrite regardless of who owns the original.

If you didn't receive a legal document stating that you are the
copywrite holder, then you aren't the copywrite holder.

You can sell the original for a profit, but you can't reproduce it.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ
http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/BuildHtmlFAQ.php3?title=ShadowRN&faqlistúqsrn
--
mailto:dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:13:53 -0700

Message no. 6 > From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>

>
> I spoke with a co-worker who has to deal with copywrite on a regular
> basis and she was under the impression that unless the creator
> specifically (in writing) transfers the copywrite, that the creator
> retains the copywrite regardless of who owns the original.
>
> If you didn't receive a legal document stating that you are the
> copywrite holder, then you aren't the copywrite holder.
>
> You can sell the original for a profit, but you can't reproduce it.
>

I sent a note to Jim Nelson at FASA, asking him about the
situation.

His reply:

------------------------------------------------------
FASA owns the rights to the Lofwyr pic. I'll check and see
if it's okay for you to use it on the shirt. First I need to
know: would the shirt be sold or would it just be for members
of the SR Mailing list?

Assuming it wouldn't be sold, I suspect FASA would just want
copyright info printed on the image (and maybe a sample shirt).
I'll watch for your reply and get back to asap.
----------------------------------------------------------

I replied that if the design was chosen, it would be
just for the ShadowRN list, that no profit would be made,
and that the copyright notice wasn't a problem (and I
didn't think the sample shirt would be either).

I'm waiting for his reply, and will pass it on when it
arrives.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<

From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Fri, 09 Apr 1999 13:47:43 -0300

Message no. 7 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rat."
] I sent a note to Jim Nelson at FASA, asking him about the
] situation.
]
] His reply:
<snip maybe-we-can-use-it-if-we're-good reply>

See? Never hurts to ask :)

-Murder of One

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
-Ralph Wiggum

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:29:08 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 8 Rat wrote:
/
/ I sent a note to Jim Nelson at FASA, asking him about the
/ situation.
/
/ His reply:
/
/ ------------------------------------------------------
/ FASA owns the rights to the Lofwyr pic. I'll check and see
/ if it's okay for you to use it on the shirt. First I need to
/ know: would the shirt be sold or would it just be for members
/ of the SR Mailing list?
/
/ Assuming it wouldn't be sold, I suspect FASA would just want
/ copyright info printed on the image (and maybe a sample shirt).
/ I'll watch for your reply and get back to asap.
/ ----------------------------------------------------------
/
/ I replied that if the design was chosen, it would be
/ just for the ShadowRN list, that no profit would be made,
/ and that the copyright notice wasn't a problem (and I
/ didn't think the sample shirt would be either).
/
/ I'm waiting for his reply, and will pass it on when it
/ arrives.

Potentially Awesome!

Quick question, which book does the pic appear in/on?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ
http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/BuildHtmlFAQ.php3?title=ShadowRN&faqlistúqsrn
--
mailto:dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:19:38 -0500

Message no. 9 :I must admit, I'm curious. I bought a Neil Gaiman DC Comics page and
:didn't sign anything except for the credit card receipt. There was a stamp
:on the back that said that it couldn't be reproduced without the permission
:of the copyright owner, but is that me or DC?

DC proably purchased the copyright when publishing the comic. FASA is
an unusual publisher in that they sometimes use art pay the artist, and do
NOT purchase the artwork or its copy-rights.

Mongoose

From:	Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:25:34 -0700

Message no. 10 > From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>

<snip stuff about possible use of Lofwyr pic)

>
> Potentially Awesome!
>
> Quick question, which book does the pic appear in/on?
>

It's in Tir Tairngire, and also in Corporate Shadowfiles.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<

From:	chimerae@*.ie chimerae@*.ie
Subject:	original art and copyrights
Date:	Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:25:12 +0100

Message no. 11 and thus did David Buehrer speak on 9 Apr 99, at 8:20:

> I spoke with a co-worker who has to deal with copywrite on a regular
> basis and she was under the impression that unless the creator
> specifically (in writing) transfers the copywrite, that the creator
> retains the copywrite regardless of who owns the original.
>
> If you didn't receive a legal document stating that you are the
> copywrite holder, then you aren't the copywrite holder.
>
> You can sell the original for a profit, but you can't reproduce it.

Damn David, that's the second time this week I came up with an
answer, and you come up with something better at the same time
:). I had just dug up one of my least favourite books about copyright
to make sure that my suspicions were right, and there you go,
asking a co-worker. Damn, I could have saved myself reliving the
copyright classes we had...

:)

Martin
*who thinks that copyright means that he has the right to copy
anything*

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