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Message no. 1
From: vampwolf@**********.co.uk (_Shinji_)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:42:06 -0000
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I have a query which I hope you can help me clear up. I'm running a game atm in which one
of my players has taken an ork. Having studied his sheet recently he listed his age as 35
yrs old. I queried this as orks can only live to about 40 or so. He told me that orks that
are born before 2011 or goblinized at puberty since have normal human life spans. I have
been unable to find any hard rule which says either way. It seems silly putting an age
limit on a race and then allow any player to ignore this by saying they goblinized at
puberty. Can anyone please give me the full facts on this? It sounds petty, but I'm
running quite a long term campaign and would hate to see the character die halfway through
(at least without them being prepared for this ^_^)

Many Thanks
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
see you space cowboy ...

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Message no. 2
From: alanchambers@*******.net (Alan Chambers)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:40:23 -0500
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I think it's from the Charrette book, "Never trust a Elf".
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com]On Behalf Of _Shinji_
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 1:42 PM
To: ShadowRN
Subject: Ork Ageing


I have a query which I hope you can help me clear up. I'm running a game
atm in which one of my players has taken an ork. Having studied his sheet
recently he listed his age as 35 yrs old. I queried this as orks can only
live to about 40 or so. He told me that orks that are born before 2011 or
goblinized at puberty since have normal human life spans. I have been unable
to find any hard rule which says either way. It seems silly putting an age
limit on a race and then allow any player to ignore this by saying they
goblinized at puberty. Can anyone please give me the full facts on this? It
sounds petty, but I'm running quite a long term campaign and would hate to
see the character die halfway through (at least without them being prepared
for this ^_^)

Many Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
see you space cowboy ...

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Message no. 3
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:53:47 +0100
_> I have a query which I hope you can help me clear up. I'm running a game atm in
which one of my players has taken an ork. Having studied his sheet recently he listed his
age as 35 yrs old. I
_> queried this as orks can only live to about 40 or so. He told me that orks that are
born before 2011 or goblinized at puberty since have normal human life spans. I have been
unable to find any
_> hard rule which says either way. It seems silly putting an age limit on a race and
then allow any player to ignore this by saying they goblinized at puberty. Can anyone
please give me the full
_> facts on this? It sounds petty, but I'm running quite a long term campaign and would
hate to see the character die halfway through (at least without them being prepared for
this ^_^)

_> Many Thanks
_> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_> see you space cowboy ...

---------------------------------------------

what I recall from some Novels is that:

Humans born as Humans and goblinized after puberty have normal
Human lifespans (however this kind of goblinization is nearly
nonexistent after 2020)

I would say if a Human is goblinized in puberty he retains his normal
lifespan, But it is also by now (2060+) very unlikely that a baby born
Human will goblinize later in its life.

The following reasoning in the Meta Plot would support that:

People don't became orcs because there was not enough magic in the
world before 2011.

>From 2011 to ca. 2025 people goblinized spontanously in puperty or
even later in their lives. That is because a) the magic became
stronger so some people who required a a higher Mana level do
goblinize to their real forms did that and b) because puperty
obviously kicks of some heavy chemistry in the human body that in
conjunction with a certain mana level will gobliize you even if that
same mana level was not sufficent for you to be born a orc.

But the number of people changing their race after birth declined that
is because aftter 2025 (or something similiar)the mana level was high
enough that anybody who has it in his genes to be a orc is born as
one.

end of reasoning.

please don't nail me to this it is only what i recall and how i would
argue ist.

Hexren
Message no. 4
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:14:01 +0100
According to _Shinji_, on Wednesday 11 February 2004 19:42 the word on the
street was...

> I have a query which I hope you can help me clear up. I'm running a game
> atm in which one of my players has taken an ork. Having studied his
> sheet recently he listed his age as 35 yrs old. I queried this as orks
> can only live to about 40 or so.

40 is the _average_ maximum age, just like 75 to 80 is in humans. IOW, your
player is playing a character who would probably be a recent pensioner,
but may still have 10 or even 20 years to live.

It does raise an IMHO much more interesting question, though: how would
society deal with people aging twice as fast as most others? Assuming an
ork's body wears out twice as fast as a human's, that means an ork aged 30
to 35 will not really be fit to work any longer. But most of western
society is geared toward people working until they're about 65, after
which they can get a pension. Assuming this remains the same in SR (which
is debatable in itself), it'd probably mean that orks pay MUCH higher
pension premiums etc. than humans do...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:20:11 +0100
G> 40 is the _average_ maximum age, just like 75 to 80 is in humans. IOW, your
G> player is playing a character who would probably be a recent pensioner,
G> but may still have 10 or even 20 years to live.

G> It does raise an IMHO much more interesting question, though: how would
G> society deal with people aging twice as fast as most others? Assuming an
G> ork's body wears out twice as fast as a human's, that means an ork aged 30
G> to 35 will not really be fit to work any longer. But most of western
G> society is geared toward people working until they're about 65, after
G> which they can get a pension. Assuming this remains the same in SR (which
G> is debatable in itself), it'd probably mean that orks pay MUCH higher
G> pension premiums etc. than humans do...


---------------------------------------------

They also die faster so they do not get pension that long after all...
but they will be at a disadvantage because most better paying positions just
can't be reached in so few years plus orks are not known for their IQ
this will make up for some pretty hard lifestyle for old orks...
Message no. 6
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:33:07 +0100
Theoretical question:

Is the Ork-average given for the _biological_ or the _statisitcal_
average lifespan?

Matthäus Cebulla
Message no. 7
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:18:58 +1100
> RE: Ork Ageing
>
> I have a query which I hope you can help me clear up. I'm running a game
> atm in which one of my players has taken an ork. Having studied his sheet
> recently he listed his age as 35 yrs old. I queried this as orks can only
> live to about 40 or so. He told me that orks that are born before 2011 or
> goblinized at puberty since have normal human life spans. I have been unable
> to find any hard rule which says either way. It seems silly putting an age
> limit on a race and then allow any player to ignore this by saying they
> goblinized at puberty. Can anyone please give me the full facts on this? It
> sounds petty, but I'm running quite a long term campaign and would hate to
> see the character die halfway through (at least without them being prepared
> for this ^_^)
>

First up - 40 is the average age of death, so it includes all the child
mortality stats and the like - I believe the average age of death for a
human given in that table is 50, am I right?

So - given that the human AAOD is 50, and humans often live to 100+,
it's not impossible that an Ork could live to 80+.

Beyond that... it's not really a play issue. If he happens to be a long
lived ork, and it suits your campaign, go for it. If attempts were made
to balance races in SR, they certainly didn't take lifespan into
account, so it's not a problem on that front.
Message no. 8
From: Jeffrey.T.Dougherty@********.edu (Jeffrey T Dougherty)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:28:15 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Hexren wrote:

> G> 40 is the _average_ maximum age, just like 75 to 80 is in humans. IOW, your
> G> player is playing a character who would probably be a recent pensioner,
> G> but may still have 10 or even 20 years to live.
>
> G> It does raise an IMHO much more interesting question, though: how would
> G> society deal with people aging twice as fast as most others? Assuming an
> G> ork's body wears out twice as fast as a human's, that means an ork aged 30
> G> to 35 will not really be fit to work any longer. But most of western
> G> society is geared toward people working until they're about 65, after
> G> which they can get a pension. Assuming this remains the same in SR (which
> G> is debatable in itself), it'd probably mean that orks pay MUCH higher
> G> pension premiums etc. than humans do...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> They also die faster so they do not get pension that long after all...
> but they will be at a disadvantage because most better paying positions just
> can't be reached in so few years plus orks are not known for their IQ
> this will make up for some pretty hard lifestyle for old orks...

Second this. To cite one example, becoming a doctor- not a highly
specialized one, either, just your basic Internal Medicine practitioner,
requires four years of college, four of medical school, and three years
internship before you're eligible to take board exams. Assuming you don't
take time off between college and medical school (which a good number of
people do), you're looking at being 33 or so by the time you're done. Law
school is three years after college- 25, giving you a whole ten years
before retirement, and most science Ph.D. programs require six or seven
years of post-college work for the degree, and then two or three years as
a postdoc before you're eligible for a faculty position.

Come to that, even staying in high school until age 18 is a big time
investment for Orks. I wonder how much of the -1 INT modifier is due to
Orks simply not becoming educated, since they literally don't have time
for it?

Jeff Dougherty
Message no. 9
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:10:28 +0000
On Wed, Feb 11, 2004 at 08:33:07PM +0100, Matth?us Cebulla wrote:
> Theoretical question:
>
> Is the Ork-average given for the _biological_ or the _statisitcal_
> average lifespan?
>
> Matth?us Cebulla
>

An interesting question I have often wondered about myself. As far as I know it is the
statistical average, however have orks even existed long enough to collect reasonable
statistics? There *can't* be any 70 year old orks (or orks that died at 70) so there is
no way they could have accurate statistics. One might claim then that the numbers are
then biological, but I don't really buy that either. I've never seen anything in the
fiction anywhere claiming that orks age faster than humans. And if they really do age
twice as fast then how come they don't also mature faster?

Even pretending that the numbers are statistical and accurate then they could still be
influenced by factors such as the rampant poverty and violence orks have to endure,
meaning their low lifespan might have nothing to do with biological factors.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 10
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:14:57 +0100
DK> On Wed, Feb 11, 2004 at 08:33:07PM +0100, Matth?us Cebulla wrote:
>> Theoretical question:
>>
>> Is the Ork-average given for the _biological_ or the _statisitcal_
>> average lifespan?
>>
>> Matth?us Cebulla
>>

DK> An interesting question I have often wondered about myself. As far as I know it is
the statistical average, however have orks even existed long enough to collect reasonable
statistics? There
DK> *can't* be any 70 year old orks (or orks that died at 70) so there is no way they
could have accurate statistics. One might claim then that the numbers are then
biological, but I don't really
DK> buy that either. I've never seen anything in the fiction anywhere claiming that
orks age faster than humans. And if they really do age twice as fast then how come they
don't also mature faster?

DK> Even pretending that the numbers are statistical and accurate then they could still
be influenced by factors such as the rampant poverty and violence orks have to endure,
meaning their low
DK> lifespan might have nothing to do with biological factors.


---------------------------------------------

I've read a few times about orks aging faster unfortunatly i can't
recall exact books for this. In my believ orcs mature faster...
Message no. 11
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:24:42 -0800 (PST)
> DK> An interesting question I have often wondered about myself. As
> far as I know it is the statistical average, however have orks even
> existed long enough to collect reasonable statistics? There
> DK> *can't* be any 70 year old orks (or orks that died at 70) so
> there is no way they could have accurate statistics. One might
> claim then that the numbers are then biological, but I don't really
> DK> buy that either. I've never seen anything in the fiction
> anywhere claiming that orks age faster than humans. And if they
> really do age twice as fast then how come they don't also mature
> faster?
>
> DK> Even pretending that the numbers are statistical and accurate
> then they could still be influenced by factors such as the rampant
> poverty and violence orks have to endure, meaning their low
> DK> lifespan might have nothing to do with biological factors.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> I've read a few times about orks aging faster unfortunatly i can't
> recall exact books for this. In my believ orcs mature faster...

Sr #6: "Never Trust An Elf"

This book specifically delves into shorter lifespans for those ~born~
ork. Goblinized orks live as long as they would have as humans.
Orks born as such supposedly reach physical maturity in their very
early teens, and are middle aged by their late 20s. 40 is an old
ork, senior citizen even.

Now, this assumes that the SR novels are anything like cannon, but
that is a whole different debate. :)

======Korishinzo
--I'm going to be an elf anyway, so who cares? ;p

__________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: westiex@********.net (Craig West)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:37:32 +1000
I went through the DNA DOA adventure last night, it seems to support what
Korishinzo was saying vis a vis the ages. Orcs are physically mature at 12
(I remember that for a definite), and you're looking at 40 for an old ork. I
wouldn't be able to quote the pages, however I'd be able to go back through
the adventure if nessecary.

So those numbers seem to suggest that a 70 year old orc would be equivalent
to a 175 year old human if a 40 year old orc is comparable to a 100 year
human.

Aramis.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*****.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 08:24
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ork Ageing


> > DK> An interesting question I have often wondered about myself. As
> > far as I know it is the statistical average, however have orks even
> > existed long enough to collect reasonable statistics? There
> > DK> *can't* be any 70 year old orks (or orks that died at 70) so
> > there is no way they could have accurate statistics. One might
> > claim then that the numbers are then biological, but I don't really
> > DK> buy that either. I've never seen anything in the fiction
> > anywhere claiming that orks age faster than humans. And if they
> > really do age twice as fast then how come they don't also mature
> > faster?
> >
> > DK> Even pretending that the numbers are statistical and accurate
> > then they could still be influenced by factors such as the rampant
> > poverty and violence orks have to endure, meaning their low
> > DK> lifespan might have nothing to do with biological factors.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > I've read a few times about orks aging faster unfortunatly i can't
> > recall exact books for this. In my believ orcs mature faster...
>
> Sr #6: "Never Trust An Elf"
>
> This book specifically delves into shorter lifespans for those ~born~
> ork. Goblinized orks live as long as they would have as humans.
> Orks born as such supposedly reach physical maturity in their very
> early teens, and are middle aged by their late 20s. 40 is an old
> ork, senior citizen even.
>
> Now, this assumes that the SR novels are anything like cannon, but
> that is a whole different debate. :)
>
> ======> Korishinzo
> --I'm going to be an elf anyway, so who cares? ;p
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:50:40 +0100
According to David Kettler, on Wednesday 11 February 2004 23:10 the word on
the street was...

> I've never seen
> anything in the fiction anywhere claiming that orks age faster than
> humans. And if they really do age twice as fast then how come they
> don't also mature faster?

It's mentioned in a few places that they do -- not twice as fast, but orks
reach puberty around 10, IIRC. Which is why I tend to make ork
shadowrunners aged somewhere in the 15 to 20 bracket rather than the 20+
I'd use for humans.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:55:30 +0000 (GMT)
> An interesting question I have often wondered about
> myself. As far as I know it is the statistical
> average, however have orks even existed long enough
> to collect reasonable statistics? There *can't* be
> any 70 year old orks (or orks that died at 70) so
> there is no way they could have accurate statistics.
> One might claim then that the numbers are then
> biological, but I don't really buy that either.
> I've never seen anything in the fiction anywhere
> claiming that orks age faster than humans. And if
> they really do age twice as fast then how come they
> don't also mature faster?
>
> Even pretending that the numbers are statistical and
> accurate then they could still be influenced by
> factors such as the rampant poverty and violence
> orks have to endure, meaning their low lifespan
> might have nothing to do with biological factors.
> Dave Kettler

Actually, my recollection from various novels and
sourcebooks (Tir Tairngire springs to mind) is that
orks DO mature faster than humans (or elves - I think
the Tir Tairngire reference has an ork complaining
about certain laws that significantly inconvenience
people who mature quicker).

And if we get into the ol' Earthdawn/Shadowrun links,
we get the "natural life span for an ork averages 40
years, though some live 60 years or more" and "orks
reach their physical maturity in their early teens"
compared to 75/100 and maturity in their teens for
humans, and 300/400 and maturity in their 20s for
elves.

But you can discount that if you want.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!





___________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: justin@***********.net (Justin)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:01:46 -0500
Rand Ratinac wrote:

>
> Actually, my recollection from various novels and
> sourcebooks (Tir Tairngire springs to mind) is that
> orks DO mature faster than humans (or elves - I think
> the Tir Tairngire reference has an ork complaining
> about certain laws that significantly inconvenience
> people who mature quicker).

There was a novel with an Ork girl as the main character, I can't
remember the title right now, where she was sort of in this pirate TV
gang thing. Yes, vague I know. Anyway, I seem to remember something
about her physically maturing earlier than the other girls. And possibly
something about her being abused by some guy in her life because of it.

Uhhh. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Message no. 16
From: dv8@*************.com (Dennis)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:05:11 +0100
> There was a novel with an Ork girl as the main character, I can't
> remember the title right now, where she was sort of in this pirate TV
> gang thing. Yes, vague I know. Anyway, I seem to remember something
> about her physically maturing earlier than the other girls.
> And possibly
> something about her being abused by some guy in her life
> because of it.
>
> Uhhh. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Lisa Smedman's "Lucifer Deck," I believe.

Dennis
http://www.wiredreflexes.com
Message no. 17
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:21:51 -0800 (PST)
--- Justin <justin@***********.net> wrote:
> Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, my recollection from various novels and
> > sourcebooks (Tir Tairngire springs to mind) is that
> > orks DO mature faster than humans (or elves - I think
> > the Tir Tairngire reference has an ork complaining
> > about certain laws that significantly inconvenience
> > people who mature quicker).
>
> There was a novel with an Ork girl as the main character, I can't
> remember the title right now, where she was sort of in this pirate
> TV
> gang thing. Yes, vague I know. Anyway, I seem to remember something
>
> about her physically maturing earlier than the other girls. And
> possibly
> something about her being abused by some guy in her life because of
> it.
>
> Uhhh. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Lucifer Deck

There is also some ork runners in Streets of Blood whose physical
maturity is a surprise to the other runners due to their age.

======Korishinzo
--yes, I have them all, I've read them all

__________________________________
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Message no. 18
From: chipeloi@***.nl (chipeloi@***.nl)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:06:07 +0100
Safe to say that Orc aging is fast
The mature around 10-12 (at that age they also become sexual active)
If you go by earthdawn they live life to the fullest as they don't have the amount of time
that
the other races have.
Ive played a lot of orcs and the "normal" age i play them at is around 13-20
Witch would be there prime.
So think about the things that Players will have problems with:
lets say an orc age 13 is the same as a human age 21

Your still 3 years of from a driving licence.
8 years from going to the pub.
Still 4 years from "adulthood" and as such will be treated as a kid.
Try finding a good paying (adult) job when you are 14(at this age most humans wil have a
career already)
35-40 is a respectable age for an orc, for the rest of the world your a sad case, dying so

young.


The other side is:
Ppl will underestimate you.
Your a lot stronger then anyone of the other races (except maybe trolls) at your age.
Your a lot smarter then anyone your age (since orc's mature faster they must also have the

ability to learn faster)

So orcs are like: an overtuned racing car, they go faster then anyone els but after a few
races the engine is worn down, so they must make the most of the short years they have.

The other side to look at is: elfs
They mature a lot slower then the average, and thus will have the revers of the effects
that
hit an orc.
So when an elf is 28-30 its around the same age as a human who is 21
So that make some intresting problems, an elf who's 16 is the same as a human age: 6-10
Are you going to let your kid brother/sister drive your car at that age?
The whole world will expect an elf to have a career and do all the "normal" suff
but they are
mentally 5-10 years younger.

Anyone getting what i mean?

Chipeloi
Message no. 19
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:05:48 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig West" <westiex@********.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ork Ageing


> I went through the DNA DOA adventure last night, it seems to support what
> Korishinzo was saying vis a vis the ages. Orcs are physically mature at 12
> (I remember that for a definite), and you're looking at 40 for an old ork.
I
> wouldn't be able to quote the pages, however I'd be able to go back
through
> the adventure if nessecary.
>
> So those numbers seem to suggest that a 70 year old orc would be
equivalent
> to a 175 year old human if a 40 year old orc is comparable to a 100 year
> human.
>
Whoa, That's a blast from the past, but I believe Arneson got that part
right. I suppose the reason that there's been so little on Orcs since is
because Dave got it right the first time!
--Anders
Message no. 20
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:10:26 +0100
According to chipeloi@***.nl, on Friday 13 February 2004 17:06 the word on
the street was...

> So orcs are like: an overtuned racing car, they go faster then anyone
> els but after a few races the engine is worn down, so they must make the
> most of the short years they have.

Pretty good analogy, if you ask me. I never thought you had it in you :)

> The other side to look at is: elfs
> They mature a lot slower then the average

Actually, no. Elves mature about as fast as humans do, but by their early
20s or so, simply stop aging. A 50-year-old elf looks the same age as a
20-year-old one, but a 16-year-old-elf is both physically and mentally the
same as a 16-year-old human.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:18:13 -0800 (PST)
> Your a lot smarter then anyone your age (since orc's mature faster
> they must also have the ability to learn faster)

AND

> So that make some intresting problems, an elf who's 16 is the same
> as a human age: 6-10
> Are you going to let your kid brother/sister drive your car at that
> age?
> The whole world will expect an elf to have a career and do all the
> "normal" suff but they are
> mentally 5-10 years younger.

Don't link physical and psychological maturity too much. While it
may be true that the ork is in fact capable of learning faster, while
the elf learns slower, it is not a given. The biggest factors in
mental maturity are time and environment. Given this, I would think
many orks are a bit immature till they die. They don't have a good
environment usually for developing "adult" maturity. And they don't
have the time. Learning from mistakes, gaining perspective, and
getting distance from past events to better understand them... all
this takes time. ED and SR suggest that Orks don't bother with such
niceties of psychological development in their societies. Might
explain why from adolescence to death, most orks find themselves most
at home in the macho, eternally teenage world of gangs. Might also
explain the -1 to Int for orks, since Int in SR is not a measure so
much of reasoning ability as it is of perception and memory. Orks
have less experience in training their memory, or using it, at any
given age then their metahuman couterparts. And living life at a
break neck pace would tend to put blinders on a person. Little
details would be filtered out in favor of things with maximum
relevance to the matter at hand.

======Korishinzo
--for example, I've met a lot of adolescent 40 year olds, and a few
very "adult" youths

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Message no. 22
From: chipeloi@***.nl (chipeloi@***.nl)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:49:40 +0100
On 13 Feb 2004 at 19:10, Gurth wrote:

> According to chipeloi@***.nl, on Friday 13 February 2004 17:06 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > So orcs are like: an overtuned racing car, they go faster then anyone
> > els but after a few races the engine is worn down, so they must make the
> > most of the short years they have.
>
> Pretty good analogy, if you ask me. I never thought you had it in you :)

You never asked... =)

> > The other side to look at is: elfs
> > They mature a lot slower then the average
>
> Actually, no. Elves mature about as fast as humans do, but by their early
> 20s or so, simply stop aging. A 50-year-old elf looks the same age as a
> 20-year-old one, but a 16-year-old-elf is both physically and mentally the
> same as a 16-year-old human.
>

Damn those elfs just get away with everything.
I can't help it but i just don't like elfs.
If you where an elf you you know you would easly live to be 250-300 years, would you EVER
risk your life?
I woudend.., i think that 80% of the elf population should have fear of dieing as a Major
fobia.
Your 30 years old would you try and shoot it out or try to talk, or just run as you stil
have
over 200 years to go...

Elves are a like: a rolator (the weeled things granny's get when they can't walk to wel
but stil
want to go somewhere) slow but they keep going, and bumb is stop =)


Just my thoughts
Chipeloi
Message no. 23
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:55:34 +0100
> Your still 3 years of from a driving licence.
If you realy care about it, yes.

> 8 years from going to the pub.
Not from the pubs your folk hang around.

> Still 4 years from "adulthood" and as such will be treated as a kid.
I, would think twice before treating a 2,3m 100kg+ human beeing as
child, even if I might think so.

And so one, society get used to these problems by ignoring them or
crating rules for them or alternate societies (like the ork
underground) take the place of the former society.

I personaly think that alternate societies are the rule and not the
exception.
Message no. 24
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:58:20 +0100
According to X3K6A2, on Saturday 14 February 2004 03:55 the word on the
street was...

> > Your still 3 years of from a driving licence.
>
> If you realy care about it, yes.
>
> > 8 years from going to the pub.
>
> Not from the pubs your folk hang around.

You're talking about the poor, shadowrunners, etc. OTOH there are all kinds
of orks living "normal" lives, and Chipeloi's examples give all sorts of
"opportunities" that these orks (and to a lesser extent, trolls) have for
getting in trouble with the law that the other kinds of metahuman simply
don't run into.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: chipeloi@***.nl (chipeloi@***.nl)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:02:12 +0100
On 14 Feb 2004 at 3:55, X3K6A2 wrote:

>>
> > Still 4 years from "adulthood" and as such will be treated as a kid.
> I, would think twice before treating a 2,3m 100kg+ human beeing as
> child, even if I might think so.

Btw you need to adjust the weight a bit, i'm around 1.80 and i'm a bit over weight,and i
weigh
a100Kg an orc has greater mussle mass and bone structure (mussle weighs a lot more then
fat) then avarage.
So they would easly weight 130-160Kg+.
As is the case with trolls the books say around 100-150 KG, we calculated this and came up

with a figure of around 350-400 Kg.
Message no. 26
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:33:53 +0100
Le 15 févr. 2004, à 16:02, chipeloi@***.nl a écrit :

> As is the case with trolls the books say around 100-150 KG, we
> calculated this and came up
> with a figure of around 350-400 Kg.

Actually, the books say around 225 kilograms. However, 350-400kg seems
more reasonable, given that trolls are incredibly tough, muscular and
almost 3m tall.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 27
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:11:44 +0100
From: <chipeloi@***.nl>
> On 14 Feb 2004 at 3:55, X3K6A2 wrote:
>
> >>
> > > Still 4 years from "adulthood" and as such will be treated as a
kid.
> > I, would think twice before treating a 2,3m 100kg+ human beeing as
> > child, even if I might think so.
>
> Btw you need to adjust the weight a bit, i'm around 1.80 and i'm a bit
over weight,and i weigh
> a100Kg an orc has greater mussle mass and bone structure (mussle weighs a
lot more then
> fat) then avarage.
> So they would easly weight 130-160Kg+.
> As is the case with trolls the books say around 100-150 KG, we calculated
this and came up
> with a figure of around 350-400 Kg.

The Shadowrun Supplemental has had two articles on weights in Shadowrun:
TTS#9 & TSS#13, which can both be found at:
http://tss.dumpshock.com/download.html

Lars
Message no. 28
From: paladinu@****.com (paladinu@****.com)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:38:30 -0600
I think my first attempt to send this bounced.

>Lucifer Deck
>
>There is also some ork runners in Streets of Blood whose physical
>maturity
is a surprise >to the other runners due to their age.
>
>======>Korishinzo

I believe that might have also been the novel in which some Orks lived a
normal human life span and others lived an accelerated one. The
differentiating factor was whether they Goblinized or were born Orks. I
seem to recall a leader of a gang being sad to outlive all his mates.

Uriah
Message no. 29
From: paladinu@****.com (paladinu@****.com)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:54:43 -0600
>
>I believe that might have also been the novel in which some Orks lived a
normal human life span and others lived an accelerated one. The
differentiating factor was whether they Goblinized or were born Orks. I
seem to recall a leader of a gang being sad to outlive all his mates.

>Uriah

Oops, Kori already answered this. The book was indeed "Never Trust an Elf".
Which also depicted that gang leader sort of obsessed with the "immortal
elves" because he wanted to use their magic to keep his short lived
bretheren around longer.

Never Trust An Elf. Good advice that.

Uriah
Message no. 30
From: trick_ster@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:08:10 +0100
Orks are mature around the age of 12 or so, which means that there are alot
of people with a 100kg body of pure muscle but with the minds of teenagers
(Read that somewhere but cant remember where). They are listed as having a
lifespan of 40 years which should mean that the first generations of born
orks should die right about now.
Trolls are listed as dying around 50, Dwarves 100, Humans 70 and finally
Elves at 100+.
I dont think elves have a fear for dying since they think themselves as
immortal beings and superior to anyone. IMHO they should underestimate
everyone they meet, which I actually think they do according to all the
novels, but I could be wrong.

Words from a Dane ...

Niels Sønderborg

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 31
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:04:14 +0100
According to Niels Sønderborg, on Monday 16 February 2004 08:08 the word on
the street was...

> Trolls are listed as dying around 50, Dwarves 100, Humans 70 and finally
> Elves at 100+.

Which means, given the quoted figure for human lifespan, that 60-year-old
orks would be around, too (well, in 20 years time, anyway).

> I dont think elves have a fear for dying since they think themselves as
> immortal beings and superior to anyone.

The question here, though, is "why?" Elves have only been around for 50
years (not counting the EI), so where would _all_ of them get the idea
that they're immortal?

> IMHO they should underestimate
> everyone they meet, which I actually think they do according to all the
> novels, but I could be wrong.

I'm always wary of stuff like this; in my games, your average elf is going
to behave much like your average human.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: carltondavis@*******.net (Carlton Davis)
Subject: Ork Ageing
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:01:30 -0600
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:04:14 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Niels Sønderborg, on Monday 16 February 2004 08:08 the word
> on
> the street was...
>
>> Trolls are listed as dying around 50, Dwarves 100, Humans 70 and finally
>> Elves at 100+.
>
> Which means, given the quoted figure for human lifespan, that 60-year-old
> orks would be around, too (well, in 20 years time, anyway).
>
>> I dont think elves have a fear for dying since they think themselves as
>> immortal beings and superior to anyone.
>
> The question here, though, is "why?" Elves have only been around for 50
> years (not counting the EI), so where would _all_ of them get the idea
> that they're immortal?
>

I don't remember which book it was in, but I'm pretty sure it was after
2nd edition, and before 3rd. A lab was doing genetic testing to estimate
life spans. In one book the mentioned that the results for elves were off
the charts. It was mentioned again in shadowtalk in another book (I
think, though it might have been part of the same one) and in that one
they had repudiated the previous results, and said that elves lived a
little bit longer than humans, but not by an ungodly amount. The way it
was written made it sound like someone hadn't liked the idea of people
knowing how long elves lived, and had faked the second results. I don't
remember which books they were in though, so unless this jogs someone's
memory, it might be difficult to dig up the two small bits of shadowtalk.
The 2nd edition rulebook does mention metabolic studies in passing, so
that might be the first reference to it. It's in the section describing
the various races at the beginning of the book.

Further Reading

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