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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Orks & goblins
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:56:12 +0100
Caun Haskins said on 7:39/18 Jul 97...

> Wow, wait a minuit, are you telling me that at one time orks and goblins
> were thought of as the same thing!! I always thought of them as totaly
> diferent races, they are adn will always be in my head totaly different.
> (I can't see the goblins in anybody's books the same as any oof my SR
> characters, That would just spoil my day!)

If you read The Hobbit, you'll find that the creatures called "orcs" in
other books are called "goblins" there. The intro in my copy states that
"/Orc/ is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is
usually translated /goblin/ (or /hobgoblin/ for the larger kinds). /Orc/
is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures".

In Shadowrun, however, "ork" refers to Homo sapiens robustus, one of the
four major human subspecies that appeared after the Awkening; "goblin,"
however, is normally used to refer to Homo bestius, which are dwarfs
infected with the Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus, but still (according to
the scientific name) human.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All these worthless nights, all these wasted days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Orks & goblins
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:51:57 -0700
> In Shadowrun, however, "ork" refers to Homo sapiens robustus, one of the
> four major human subspecies that appeared after the Awkening; "goblin,"
> however, is normally used to refer to Homo bestius, which are dwarfs
> infected with the Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus, but still (according to
> the scientific name) human.

<gripe>
That's kind of funny. Vampires, Wendigos (hi Bull) and Banshees are
given completely different taxonomies, and the Dzoo-Noo-Qua of PANA are
homo saevitias. All are infected with the same virus, and none really
have the benefit of social acceptance.

But saying that they're another species instead of homo sapiens is a
little like calling AIDS victims homo HIVus... (and yes, I understand
the deep social commentary being made.)


-Matt
Message no. 3
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Orks & goblins
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:48:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-20 09:38:34 EDT, mbreton@**.netcom.com (Matb)
writes:

>
> But saying that they're another species instead of homo sapiens is a
> little like calling AIDS victims homo HIVus... (and yes, I understand
> the deep social commentary being made.)
>
>
That is good Matt, because those would have been major fighting words. Not
for myself, but those I've known.

On the other topic of Orc, Goblins, etc...has anyone come up with their own
home grown "ork" and "troll" variations that are NOT in the companion?
-Keith
Message no. 4
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Orks & goblins
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:38:43 -0700
> > But saying that they're another species instead of homo sapiens is a
> > little like calling AIDS victims homo HIVus... (and yes, I understand
> > the deep social commentary being made.)

> That is good Matt, because those would have been major fighting words. Not
> for myself, but those I've known.

Sorry if the "deep social commentary" sounded a little sarcastic; it was
anything but. I've found that, like metahumans, HMHVV can be used as a
way to talk about real-life issues without (necessarily) provoking
sensibilities.

(rambling personal recollection)

Back in high school, we had a small gaming group, maybe seven or eight
kids, the 'outcasts' of our very Jesuit high school. (We all happened
to be honor students, too. Funny, innit?) And one of the first things
that we noticed about SR was that vampires and wendigos /weren't/ orks
and humans, despite being called a "human subspecies" in the flavor
text. (Why were Wengigos the first thing we noticed? Color plates, my
friend.) Quite a few of us had oddball theories on it, but I can
remember the slightly shocked look on my good friend John's face.

John was the only gay person that I knew of in the school, and as far as
I knew, I was the only straight guy he had ever told. We were talking
later - we almost never talked about gaming outside of sessions - and he
told me that his lover (college guy, junior, forget his name) had been
diagnosed with AIDS. This was 1989, and while a few social institutions
were beginning to offer assistance, by and large the public opinion
seemed to be that if you got AIDS, you would die and *no one cared*. To
see something so extraordinarily similar made Shadowrun a *very* dark
future, for him.

Whew. Been a while since I went that deep into the memory vault. I'll
stop before I get carried away.

(/rambling personal recollection)


It is difficult to talk about some things, and, unfortunately (no slur
meant against you by-and-large very cool listmembers) I've often found
that a lot of gamers fall easily for some stereotypes... too much "us
v. them", I guess. Having seen ghouls and vampires used as pure evil in
some campaigns, I wanted to expose another possible side to the issue.
Message no. 5
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Orks & goblins
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:57:17 +1000
Mat, your mailer's overriding the reply-to the list again...

> <gripe>
> That's kind of funny. Vampires, Wendigos (hi Bull) and Banshees are

Ohhhhh... you're mean. :)

> But saying that they're another species instead of homo sapiens is a
> little like calling AIDS victims homo HIVus... (and yes, I understand
> the deep social commentary being made.)

Hmmm... I don't think so. HIV/AIDS just screws your life up and
generally makes you die early, to put it at its bluntest. (Actually,
IIRC AIDS just buggers up your immune system so you die from something
normally harmless - AIDS doesn't even kill you itself. Or am I wrong
again?)

HMHVV, on the other hand, changes you into a completely different
LIFEFORM! HMHVV infected people get really funky powers and
corresponding weaknesses - since when are AIDS victims (or VITAS victims
if you want to keep it SRish) able to Essence Drain? :)

VITAS to me is the SR equivalent of AIDS - HMHVV is VERY different.

Lady Jestyr

----------------------------------------------------
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota
monax materiam possit materiari?
----------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Orks & goblins
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:37:13 +0500
On 21 Jul 97 at 7:57, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> Hmmm... I don't think so. HIV/AIDS just screws your life up and
> generally makes you die early, to put it at its bluntest. (Actually,
> IIRC AIDS just buggers up your immune system so you die from
> something normally harmless - AIDS doesn't even kill you itself. Or
> am I wrong again?)

No, that's correct. It destroys your immune system, so you generally
die from something else.

> HMHVV, on the other hand, changes you into a completely different
> LIFEFORM! HMHVV infected people get really funky powers and
> corresponding weaknesses - since when are AIDS victims (or VITAS
> victims if you want to keep it SRish) able to Essence Drain? :)
>
> VITAS to me is the SR equivalent of AIDS - HMHVV is VERY different.

That is why the different scientific classifications of the infected
species. They ARE a different species. HMHVV actually alters the
whole DNA, and mutates the whole organism, rather than specific cells
like most virii.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Orks & goblins
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:51:35 -0700
> > HMHVV, on the other hand, changes you into a completely different
> > LIFEFORM! HMHVV infected people get really funky powers and
> > corresponding weaknesses - since when are AIDS victims (or VITAS
> > victims if you want to keep it SRish) able to Essence Drain? :)

> > VITAS to me is the SR equivalent of AIDS - HMHVV is VERY different.

> That is why the different scientific classifications of the infected
> species. They ARE a different species. HMHVV actually alters the
> whole DNA, and mutates the whole organism, rather than specific cells
> like most virii.

Can't agree, mostly because SR disagrees with itself. Vampires,
Wendigos and Banshees are given different taxonomies than Dzoo-noo-quah
and the whatevers Gurth mentioned (man, my memory's short), the latter
two being taxonomied as homo (species), whereas the Vampires et al are
distinctly called "human subspecies" in the flavor text. To resound the
refrain: catching a virus (no matter its effects) doesn't qualify one
into a new species. (Unless you really want to broaden the definition
pass the scientific view. Do mages count as their own species too?)

I don't buy any of it (g), considering the taxonomies to be bungled by
uncertainty and politics. But it makes for great coffee talk...

Further Reading

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Thwap!