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Message no. 1
From: NeoJ-is-K neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:33:15 -0500
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
Subject: (no subject)


> 1) How many people use Otaku in their games?

We do here. That's a couple of characters.

> 2) When an otaku uses a wireless link, must they purchase the
> corresponding utility (radio link utility, etc.);
> A) as a Complex Form.

Probably best for them.

> B) As a program which resides in the hardware.

Very likely this could work, if the GM allows for it.

> C) Not at all, they can automatically interface with such a device (as
> was stated in the erratta in Arcology ShutDown)

Ah, but not all devices work the same and I don't really recall where they
have this ability. Besides, the Otaku rules in MATRIX are up to
date/exceed/supercede the rules in RA:S.

> D) Some other option.
> (I'm leaning towards A right now, but could see B also)
> 3) Back a week ago, NeoJudas and I went back and forth about the Otaku
> ability to spend Good Karma (not Karma Pool) to buy automatic successes
> for the Intelligence test to learn a new Complex Form. He didn't reply to
> my last email, so I am still wondering if anyone has any inside info that
> this rule is in error, or does it stand as written?

Ah, sorry about not getting back with you. I guess maybe I'm not seeing the
question here. The rules for Karma override all archetypes as far as I can
tell when it comes to skill tests (NOT buying of a skill). As such, if
anyone wants to "buy a success" then they must use the same rules for Karma
as all other characters must. This includes Otaku, Magicians,
Samurai...etc..ad nausea..

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 2
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:51:33 -0400 (EDT)
On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, NeoJ-is-K wrote:

> > 3) Back a week ago, NeoJudas and I went back and forth about the Otaku
> > ability to spend Good Karma (not Karma Pool) to buy automatic successes
> > for the Intelligence test to learn a new Complex Form. He didn't reply to
> > my last email, so I am still wondering if anyone has any inside info that
> > this rule is in error, or does it stand as written?
>
> Ah, sorry about not getting back with you. I guess maybe I'm not seeing the
> question here. The rules for Karma override all archetypes as far as I can
> tell when it comes to skill tests (NOT buying of a skill). As such, if
> anyone wants to "buy a success" then they must use the same rules for Karma
> as all other characters must. This includes Otaku, Magicians,
> Samurai...etc..ad nausea..

I fail to see why you assume that the rules in 3rd Ed automatically
override the rules in Matrix. Going from what's said here, it specifically
states they can buy successes with Good Karma. (Keep in mind, I've not
seen it. If it doesn't, then this is a silly discussion to have).
But, assuming this, it would be a new ability for Otaku, in this specific
instance. It seems odd to simply assume they meant something else, or that
old rules are automatically overriding the new rules. Is there something
else behind your statement?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't speak Latin in front of the books"
Message no. 3
From: NeoJ-is-K neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:55:33 -0500
From: "Damian Sharp" <zadoc@***.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))


> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, NeoJ-is-K wrote:
> > Ah, sorry about not getting back with you. I guess maybe I'm not seeing
the
> > question here. The rules for Karma override all archetypes as far as I
can
> > tell when it comes to skill tests (NOT buying of a skill). As such, if
> > anyone wants to "buy a success" then they must use the same rules for
Karma
> > as all other characters must. This includes Otaku, Magicians,
> > Samurai...etc..ad nausea..
>
> I fail to see why you assume that the rules in 3rd Ed automatically
> override the rules in Matrix. Going from what's said here, it specifically
> states they can buy successes with Good Karma. (Keep in mind, I've not
> seen it. If it doesn't, then this is a silly discussion to have).
> But, assuming this, it would be a new ability for Otaku, in this specific
> instance. It seems odd to simply assume they meant something else, or that
> old rules are automatically overriding the new rules. Is there something
> else behind your statement?

Yes in fact, there is. For whatever reason, I keep having problems with the
terms "Real Karma", "Good Karma" and "Karma Pool". People
seem to bounce
these words all over the place like SUPERBALLS(TM) fresh from the
candy-dispenser. And that even includes some of the writers.

Lets try this, I do not absolutely know if the reference in the Matrix book
is a typo or new ability. I just really fail to see why the ONLY rules in
SR3 (of which Matrix is a part of) that haven't undergone any kind of
changes are those for Karma expenditures (okay, the Mnemonic Enhancer may be
the sole exception to this, but it only relates to skill development, not
for skill success test karma expenditures, so the point is *still* a moot
one).

Karma for buying/improving skills and/or spells/otaku-forms comes from one
source (I call it "Skill Karma Pool" here in our games just to ensure
clarity).

Karma for buying/rerolling success tests comes from a different source (we
call it generically the "Reroll Karma Pool", again to ensure clarity).

IMNSHO, the choice of terms "Real Karma" and "Good Karma" to help
select
what karma goes into what pool goes where and the occasional confusion
between those two that arises is more than enough to have many newbie and
many veteran players alike all scrambling for their books.

The reason for my saying this is because all Karma is "Real Karma"
ultimately. "Good Karma" is a bad reference choice, even if it is supposed
to mean the opposite of "Bad Karma" (think of the Flaw of this name). Good
Karma is that which improves your luck. Bad Karma is that which opposes
your luck.

Hence, the idea of having a statement in a book that says that "Real Karma"
(book terminology now, no house rules) can be used to adjust your skill
success test, regardless of the fact that nobody else can do this (and I do
not personally care how unique the Otaku are by anybody's POV) in the
Shadowrun universe seems like a good candidate for yet another "typo" to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)

>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
> | Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
> | Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Don't speak Latin in front of the books"
>
>
>
>
Message no. 4
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 03:28:34 -0400 (EDT)
On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, NeoJ-is-K wrote:

> From: "Damian Sharp" <zadoc@***.neu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
>
> > I fail to see why you assume that the rules in 3rd Ed automatically
> > override the rules in Matrix. Going from what's said here, it specifically
> > states they can buy successes with Good Karma. (Keep in mind, I've not
> > seen it. If it doesn't, then this is a silly discussion to have).
> > But, assuming this, it would be a new ability for Otaku, in this specific
> > instance. It seems odd to simply assume they meant something else, or that
> > old rules are automatically overriding the new rules. Is there something
> > else behind your statement?
>
> Yes in fact, there is. For whatever reason, I keep having problems with the
> terms "Real Karma", "Good Karma" and "Karma Pool".
People seem to bounce
> these words all over the place like SUPERBALLS(TM) fresh from the
> candy-dispenser. And that even includes some of the writers.
>
> Lets try this, I do not absolutely know if the reference in the Matrix book
> is a typo or new ability. I just really fail to see why the ONLY rules in
> SR3 (of which Matrix is a part of) that haven't undergone any kind of
> changes are those for Karma expenditures (okay, the Mnemonic Enhancer may be
> the sole exception to this, but it only relates to skill development, not
> for skill success test karma expenditures, so the point is *still* a moot
> one).
>
> Karma for buying/improving skills and/or spells/otaku-forms comes from one
> source (I call it "Skill Karma Pool" here in our games just to ensure
> clarity).
>
> Karma for buying/rerolling success tests comes from a different source (we
> call it generically the "Reroll Karma Pool", again to ensure clarity).
>
> IMNSHO, the choice of terms "Real Karma" and "Good Karma" to help
select
> what karma goes into what pool goes where and the occasional confusion
> between those two that arises is more than enough to have many newbie and
> many veteran players alike all scrambling for their books.
>
> The reason for my saying this is because all Karma is "Real Karma"
> ultimately. "Good Karma" is a bad reference choice, even if it is supposed
> to mean the opposite of "Bad Karma" (think of the Flaw of this name). Good
> Karma is that which improves your luck. Bad Karma is that which opposes
> your luck.

I'm not going to deny the confusion having the various 'Karma's can
cause. I'm sure everyone's been tripped up.

> Hence, the idea of having a statement in a book that says that "Real Karma"
> (book terminology now, no house rules) can be used to adjust your skill
> success test, regardless of the fact that nobody else can do this (and I do
> not personally care how unique the Otaku are by anybody's POV) in the
> Shadowrun universe seems like a good candidate for yet another "typo" to
me.

Ah, now it makes sense. :)
It's very possible it was a typo. Not like they don't slip in.

However, it seems odd that they would restate the very base rule 'You can
spend Karma Pool on rolls', just for the sake of the Otaku. If that's all
they wanted to say, why even bother? It would incline me to believe they
wanted to make some sort of point there. Changing Good Karma to Karma Pool
simply restates the base rule, which seems silly.

Granted, that doesn't mean that wasn't what they were doing, but still...

Possibly, they meant to put something else entirely. But I can't think of
what that could have been. Maybe they wanted Otaku to be playable as the
group's decker, and, while the decker can run out & buy a program, the
Otaku needs to buy these forms, yes?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't speak Latin in front of the books"
Message no. 5
From: NeoJ-is-K neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 05:24:35 -0500
From: "Damian Sharp" <zadoc@***.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))


> > The reason for my saying this is because all Karma is "Real Karma"
> > ultimately. "Good Karma" is a bad reference choice, even if it is
supposed
> > to mean the opposite of "Bad Karma" (think of the Flaw of this name).
Good
> > Karma is that which improves your luck. Bad Karma is that which opposes
> > your luck.
>
> I'm not going to deny the confusion having the various 'Karma's can
> cause. I'm sure everyone's been tripped up.

Yeah, it does seem to be a weird little point of chaos.

> > Hence, the idea of having a statement in a book that says that "Real
Karma"
> > (book terminology now, no house rules) can be used to adjust your skill
> > success test, regardless of the fact that nobody else can do this (and I
do
> > not personally care how unique the Otaku are by anybody's POV) in the
> > Shadowrun universe seems like a good candidate for yet another "typo"
to
me.
>
> Ah, now it makes sense. :)
> It's very possible it was a typo. Not like they don't slip in.

And gods what a story I've heard on that one... (laughs/bitches/grumbles all
in one breath)

> However, it seems odd that they would restate the very base rule 'You can
> spend Karma Pool on rolls', just for the sake of the Otaku. If that's all
> they wanted to say, why even bother? It would incline me to believe they
> wanted to make some sort of point there. Changing Good Karma to Karma Pool
> simply restates the base rule, which seems silly.
>
> Granted, that doesn't mean that wasn't what they were doing, but still...

I personally want to sway/stand on this point. I've seen them making these
kinds of emphasis-calls before, almost like they would try to get a solid
point across to people that may not be sure, and then got into such a rush
that the words were skipped around.

> Possibly, they meant to put something else entirely. But I can't think of
> what that could have been. Maybe they wanted Otaku to be playable as the
> group's decker, and, while the decker can run out & buy a program, the
> Otaku needs to buy these forms, yes?

They do, but not at a really high cost especially in comparison to a
magicians spell formula cost (ever notice that little parallel??? Magical
Formula vs. Otaku Form??? Talk about schism inducing...). I think the part
that still gets me is the words have to do with the buying of the skill
success test, and not the buying of the form itself.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 6
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 10:48:55 -0500
:Yes in fact, there is. For whatever reason, I keep having problems with
the
:terms "Real Karma", "Good Karma" and "Karma Pool". People
seem to bounce
:these words all over the place like SUPERBALLS(TM) fresh from the
:candy-dispenser. And that even includes some of the writers.

Yeah, those terms suck...

:Karma for buying/improving skills and/or spells/otaku-forms comes from one
:source (I call it "Skill Karma Pool" here in our games just to ensure
:clarity).
:Karma for buying/rerolling success tests comes from a different source (we
:call it generically the "Reroll Karma Pool", again to ensure clarity).

Sure, that helps a LOT- use a game term in a non-standard way, and them make
up a new, longer term to cover an existing one... :P

The terms generally used in our games were "Earned Karma" (the total
karma you have earned), "Karma" (earned karma that hasn't been spent or
automatically put in the karma pool) and "Karma Pool" (as defined in the
book- karma you automatically must put in a pool for various uses. That
seemed to be enough- once people realized you had to track Earned Karma so
that you'd know when to put Karma in the Karma Pool, things went pretty
smoothly...

Yup, clear as mud...

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:15:54 -0500
:Ah, now it makes sense. :)
:It's very possible it was a typo. Not like they don't slip in.

The playtest copy had the same text, so if its a typo, it slipped past
multiple playtesters, the editors, and a developers pass. I thought it
meant exactly what it said when I read it...

:However, it seems odd that they would restate the very base rule 'You can
:spend Karma Pool on rolls', just for the sake of the Otaku. If that's all
:they wanted to say, why even bother? It would incline me to believe they
:wanted to make some sort of point there. Changing Good Karma to Karma Pool
:simply restates the base rule, which seems silly.

Very.

:Possibly, they meant to put something else entirely. But I can't think of
:what that could have been. Maybe they wanted Otaku to be playable as the
:group's decker, and, while the decker can run out & buy a program, the
:Otaku needs to buy these forms, yes?

That's basically how I saw it. It cuts down on the months of downtime
an otaku might otherwise need to spend getting those high rating complex
forms, and gives them an "opportunity" to spend karma on something besided
beefing up thier physical stats. ;-)

Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Otaku Questions (Re: (no subject))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:42:34 -0400
On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:55:33 -0500 "NeoJ-is-K"
<neojudas@******************.com> writes:
> Yes in fact, there is. For whatever reason, I keep having problems
> with the
> terms "Real Karma", "Good Karma" and "Karma Pool".
People seem to
> bounce
> these words all over the place like SUPERBALLS(TM) fresh from the
> candy-dispenser. And that even includes some of the writers.
>

see, in the Rule Books, there's "Good Karma" which is used for purchasing
abilities, spells, initiating etc.
then, there's Karma Pool, which is used for reroll's and such.

(Not sure where Real Karma is from)

So, it says "Good Karma can be used for..."



> Lets try this, I do not absolutely know if the reference in the
> Matrix book
> is a typo or new ability.

Ah, okay, the problem was that you were vague about it. It left me unsure
as to whether you were wondering out loud, or knew something I didn't...
:-)



> Hence, the idea of having a statement in a book that says that "Real
> Karma"
> (book terminology now, no house rules) can be used to adjust your
> skill
> success test, regardless of the fact that nobody else can do this
> (and I do
> not personally care how unique the Otaku are by anybody's POV) in
> the
> Shadowrun universe seems like a good candidate for yet another
> "typo" to me.
>

If it helps it's for a Intel test, not a skill test :-)
I chalk it up to the "Karma Whore" requirement for Otaku, a desire to get
them to spend more of their Good Karma.
Though Complef Forms and spells have some parallels, Complex Forms take a
long time, and only 1 GK, spells GK=force and not much time at all.
Spell's can get reduced GK cost with Metaplanar quests, Otkau can reduce
time with GK.

It's wierd, but no wierder than a Dragon getting voted in as president...

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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