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Message no. 1
From: Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject: OT: Ammo Myths and Black Talons
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:56:46 -0500
FYI--
Winchester's "Black Talon" rounds were badly named by the marketing
staff, but the principle behind the round is fairly simple.
Most Jacketed Hollow-Point bullets lose much of their mass on
impact to fragmentation. Parts of the jacket peel away and bounce off on
different vectors. Because of this effect, a JHP bullet loses much of its
energy and thus "stopping power".
The "Black Talon" round was made with a new technique for jacketing
the bullet. This allowed it to retain 90% to 100% of its jacket and thus
made it a much more efficient round. The materials used to improve the
bonding were black, and the "mushroomed" round had six sharply pointed
tips: thus "Black Talon".
The actual effect of the jacket tips is minimal to non-existent. In
the bullets I've seen, the tips were almost entirely curled under the
"head" of the "mushroom". The tracks these bullets made in gelatin are
longer and wider than more convention JHP bullets, but there was no sign of
"shredding" or "tearing".
Contrary to media reports, the "Black Talon" was not and is not a
flying buzzsaw. It is also still being sold to law-enforcement personnel.
Winchester has also come out with another bullet based on the same
techniques, and it has better performance than the "Black Talon", but a
different name and a different look. No pointed jacket tips, for one thing,
and no black coating, either.

As for the Glaser rounds, I, for one, will not use them. Not
because of their effects, which are ideal for self-defense, but rather
because they're so damn expensive. $25 for a pack of six bullets! I like to
be able to practice shooting with the ammo I use for self-defense, and at
those prices I might as well be shooting with silver bullets. Heck, the
silver bullets might be cheaper.

The whole controversy about teflon-coated bullets started when a
ballistics expert developed a special-purpose round for police use. The
idea was to take a steel or titanium jacketed bullet and add a teflon
coating to reduce barrel wear. The round's design meant that it would
penetrate car doors, engine blocks, etc.
I forget whether it was Senator Metzenbaum or Congressman Shumer
who stated publicly that this round would go through police vests.
Criminals aren't stupid, just ignorant, and the nation-wide publicity made
them aware that cops wear bullet-resistant vests. As a result, police
officer mortality went up something like 60% that year from the year
before, since criminals were now shooting at officer's heads.

Sorry for the long post, but a whole bunch of my buttons got
pushed.

Shadowmage
Message no. 2
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: OT: Ammo Myths and Black Talons
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:06:12 -0800
>FYI--
> Winchester's "Black Talon" rounds were badly named by the marketing
>staff, but the principle behind the round is fairly simple.
> Most Jacketed Hollow-Point bullets lose much of their mass on
>impact to fragmentation. Parts of the jacket peel away and bounce off on
>different vectors. Because of this effect, a JHP bullet loses much of its
>energy and thus "stopping power".

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but you seem to be saying
that upon impact, parts of the jacket of the bullet "peel away and bounce
off on different vectors", thus causing loss of energy.

As long as these vectors are contained within the body of the victim, then
no energy or mass is lost for purposes of stopping power. That is, you want
the entire mass of the bullet (in whatever configuration) to come to a rest
within the target. Momentum and energy of the fragments would be entirely
conserved in a center of mass reference frame centered on the bullet.

In general, to transfer energy to the target you want an inelastic
collision. That is, the velocity of the bullet (or its constituent parts)
becomes zero after collision. This kinetic energy causes trauma to the
target.

However, if you want to transfer momentum and cause knockdown, you want an
*elastic* collision, that is, the velocity of the bullet is opposite (to
some degree) in vector from prior to impact. This is the principle behind
rubber bullets.

Shotguns are extremely effective antipersonnel weapons, and it can be
easily demonstrated that the various shot tracks, as long as the shot is of
sufficient diameter, causes horrific damage. But if you want to shoot
through a car (or more accuracy, or knockdown) solid slugs work great.

I find it doubtful that a flying buzzsaw would work as an armor penetrator.
Kevlar works upon the principle of several dozen or so interlocking layers
of extremely strong (tensile) threads. A small diameter, sharp pointed,
high velocity round would be able to better part the weave, but a large
surface area would allow a large section of the weave to absorb the energy.

If the buzzsaw had teeth that were capable of cutting the threads (say,
synthetic diamond or buckminsterfullerene) then it might work.

> I forget whether it was Senator Metzenbaum or Congressman Shumer
>who stated publicly that this round would go through police vests.
>Criminals aren't stupid, just ignorant, and the nation-wide publicity made
>them aware that cops wear bullet-resistant vests. As a result, police
>officer mortality went up something like 60% that year from the year
>before, since criminals were now shooting at officer's heads.

Congresscritters tend to be a pretty stupid breed, as Plato ascertained
centuries ago:

"No one ever teaches well who wants to teach, or governs well who wants to
govern."

>Shadowmage


--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 3
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: OT: Ammo Myths and Black Talons
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:23:56 +0000
In article <v0401171bb3033f698b55@[128.120.118.25]>, Adam Getchell
<acgetchell@*******.edu> writes
>I find it doubtful that a flying buzzsaw would work as an armor penetrator.

Since chainsaw operators use Kevlar safety clothing, it seems evident
that it _wouldn't_ work...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 4
From: Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject: OT: Ammo Myths and Black Talons
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:56:52 -0500
Adam--

>As long as these vectors are contained within the body of the
>victim, then no energy or mass is lost for purposes of stopping
>power. That is, you want the entire mass of the bullet (in whatever
>configuration) to come to a rest within the target. Momentum and
>energy of the fragments would be entirely conserved in a center of
>mass reference frame centered on the bullet.


Perhaps I should have said "relative loss of energy". Also, many of
those little bits of the jacket are lost when the bullet impacts a bone.
The whole idea behind the Black Talon was to keep the bullet as intact as
possible, to better concentrate the energy transfer.
Oddly enough, one consequence of the Black Talon round is that it
is easier for trauma surgeons to extract all of the bullet, thereby making
the wound more survivable.

Shadowmage

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