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Message no. 1
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Okay. I find that as I bring more and more ED-originated elements into SR
(IEs, Great Dragons, Horrors -- so sue me, I like the feel of the
campaign) that I actually need an EarthDawn book. I intend to go out and
purchase one as soon as I get money laid aside to do so.

In the meanwhile, I have a simple mechanics question.

I'm looking at the description of an ED magical item. The entries are of
the form:

Rank 1: Cost: X
Key Knowledge:
Effect:

The 'Cost' column: is that in ED Legend Points?

--Number 10.
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Message no. 2
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:30:35 EDT
In a message dated 7/8/99 4:25:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
number_10_ox@**********.com writes:

> Okay. I find that as I bring more and more ED-originated elements into SR
> (IEs, Great Dragons, Horrors -- so sue me, I like the feel of the
> campaign) that I actually need an EarthDawn book. I intend to go out and
> purchase one as soon as I get money laid aside to do so.
>
> In the meanwhile, I have a simple mechanics question.
>
> I'm looking at the description of an ED magical item. The entries are of
> the form:
>
> Rank 1: Cost: X
> Key Knowledge:
> Effect:
>
> The 'Cost' column: is that in ED Legend Points?


Yeah, the "Cost" is to gain access to the Rank 1 abilities and you pay with
Legend Points (ironically LPs are more like Karma than the Karma in ED is
like Karma in SR), but it sounds like you already have that stuff down.





-Twist
Message no. 3
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 16:37:25 -0400
At 01:23 PM 7/8/99 -0700, Number Ten Ox wrote:
>In the meanwhile, I have a simple mechanics question.
>
>I'm looking at the description of an ED magical item. The entries are of
>the form:
>
>Rank 1: Cost: X
>Key Knowledge:
>Effect:
>
>The 'Cost' column: is that in ED Legend Points?

Yes, that's correct.

--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 4
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:23:51 -0400
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Number Ten Ox
<number_10_ox@**********.com> writes:
>
>Okay. I find that as I bring more and more ED-originated elements into
>SR
>(IEs, Great Dragons, Horrors -- so sue me, I like the feel of the
>campaign) that I actually need an EarthDawn book. I intend to go out
>and
>purchase one as soon as I get money laid aside to do so.
>
Join the club. I've got three books (and I don't even play ED :( ).

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Message no. 5
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:51:24 -0500
:I'm looking at the description of an ED magical item. The entries are of
:the form:
:
:Rank 1: Cost: X
:Key Knowledge:
:Effect:
:
:The 'Cost' column: is that in ED Legend Points?

Yes, it would be. However, those magic items are quite different from
any Foci in SR, in terms of "mystic mechanics" and function, so any
"cost"
translation is going to be guesswork at best.

Mongoose
Message no. 6
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:15:56 -0700 (PDT)
---Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
> :The 'Cost' column: is that in ED Legend Points?
>
> Yes, it would be. However, those magic items are quite different from
> any Foci in SR, in terms of "mystic mechanics" and function, so any
"cost"
> translation is going to be guesswork at best.

I didn't really want a 'cost' translation: I wanted to know how
hard it is to bond those in ED terms. In other words, what is an ED 3rd
circle Archer gonna have to pay to bond an item: 300Legend points, 300 Karma
300 Zorkmids, 300 drops of blood from an African swallow?

I don't intend to introduce more than one ED item. Perhaps two, but
only after the wonder from the first one has worn off. Given that... they're
gonna be worth a *boatload* of Karma to bond with. (Besides, I can just see
the Sotry potential in the very simple requirement of "Know who the item's
creator was." Simple, in ED. Damned near impossible, in SR.)

> Mongoose

--Number 10.
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Message no. 7
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:55:38 -0400
At 12:15 PM 7/9/99 -0700, Number Ten Ox wrote:
> I didn't really want a 'cost' translation: I wanted to know how
>hard it is to bond those in ED terms. In other words, what is an ED 3rd
>circle Archer gonna have to pay to bond an item: 300Legend points, 300 Karma
>300 Zorkmids, 300 drops of blood from an African swallow?
>
> I don't intend to introduce more than one ED item. Perhaps two, but
>only after the wonder from the first one has worn off. Given that... they're
>gonna be worth a *boatload* of Karma to bond with. (Besides, I can just see
>the Sotry potential in the very simple requirement of "Know who the item's
>creator was." Simple, in ED. Damned near impossible, in SR.)

What was that one adventure that had an Earthdawn item in it? I'm blanking
on the name, but the thing looked like a little worm wrapped around a
staff. IIRC there was hardly any bonding cost for that. Of course, it did
drive the wielder mad...

You could have real fun with finding out who the creator was. That has
"Astral Quest of arbitrarily high level" written all over it.

Also, any ED item is going to get people VERY interested in them. The
Atlantean Foundation, DIMR, the Tirs, just to name a few.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 8
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:03:29 -0600
At 15:55 7/9/99 -0400, Sommers wrote:

>What was that one adventure that had an Earthdawn item in it? I'm blanking
>on the name, but the thing looked like a little worm wrapped around a
>staff. IIRC there was hardly any bonding cost for that. Of course, it did
>drive the wielder mad...

Bottled Demon. And I believe the artifict ended up in Denver in the
official plot, after it passed through the runners.

Adam
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / ICQ# 2350330 >
Message no. 9
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:06:57 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Sommers wrote:

> At 12:15 PM 7/9/99 -0700, Number Ten Ox wrote:
> > I didn't really want a 'cost' translation: I wanted to know how
> >hard it is to bond those in ED terms. In other words, what is an ED 3rd
> >circle Archer gonna have to pay to bond an item: 300Legend points, 300 Karma
> >300 Zorkmids, 300 drops of blood from an African swallow?

Cost was independant of the character's ability. It's more based on the
item's coolness, and a fibonacci increase (100, 200, 300, 500, 800...)

> > I don't intend to introduce more than one ED item. Perhaps two, but
> >only after the wonder from the first one has worn off. Given that... they're
> >gonna be worth a *boatload* of Karma to bond with. (Besides, I can just see
> >the Sotry potential in the very simple requirement of "Know who the item's
> >creator was." Simple, in ED. Damned near impossible, in SR.)
>
> What was that one adventure that had an Earthdawn item in it? I'm blanking
> on the name, but the thing looked like a little worm wrapped around a
> staff. IIRC there was hardly any bonding cost for that. Of course, it did
> drive the wielder mad...

Bottled Demon I think. With the huge Power Focus, with a catch...
What edition of SR was that for?

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| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
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Message no. 10
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:39:26 -0500
: I didn't really want a 'cost' translation: I wanted to know how
:hard it is to bond those in ED terms. In other words, what is an ED 3rd
:circle Archer gonna have to pay to bond an item: 300Legend points, 300
Karma
:300 Zorkmids, 300 drops of blood from an African swallow?

A 3rd circle archer can't normally use ANY threaded item, since he
doesn't generally have access to the Thread Weaving talent..
Besides that, how hard is it for said archer to earn said LP? Isn't
that
the real issue when asking how hard it is to buy something with them?
One thing about ED / LP that differs greatly from SR / karma is that
Legend Point awards per game are always higher for more experienced
characters. This means that those really high top end costs that magic
items have are high for new characters (who may not be able to use the item
at all, due to lack of the "threadweaving" talent and knowledge needed to
bind it), but the cost might be quite reasonable to a high circle character.
This has a BIG effect on the perceived difficulty of "bonding" an item.
High circle characters will easily tie the threads they have knowledge for
(if they have the "Thread Slots" open), while low circle characters will be
loathe to spend the legend on something that does not advance their circle.
So, in this example, the 3rd circle archer will want to reach 4rth
circle, buy threadweaving, and the tie a thread to the item- or maybe wait
until he reaches 5th circle and is earning legend more rapidly and can
access the higher thread levels more easily.
I'd say, in your example, his using the item effectively is pretty damn
hard, despite its 300 LP cost (for rank a 1 thread, I'm assuming). From
playing ED a hell of a lot, I'd say it will be maybe 5-10 game sessions
before he gets much use from the thing, even if he focuses pretty single
mindedly on doing so. In other specific cases, the answer as to how hard it
is to bond the item in ED terms would be different.


Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:54:54 -0500
:> > I didn't really want a 'cost' translation: I wanted to know how
:> >hard it is to bond those in ED terms. In other words, what is an ED 3rd
:> >circle Archer gonna have to pay to bond an item: 300Legend points, 300
Karma
:> >300 Zorkmids, 300 drops of blood from an African swallow?
:
:Cost was independant of the character's ability. It's more based on the
:item's coolness, and a fibonacci increase (100, 200, 300, 500, 800...)

But the LP a character has available to spend (earned per game session)
is quite dependant on thier abilty- it is direclty based off thier circle.
And, its not "bonded" all in one step- you have to "buy" each
"level" of the
sequence in succesion- its the "levels" that have that pricing sequnce and
which become progressively cooler. But yeah, the more powerful items
generally have a higher cost , even for the first rank bought.

:Bottled Demon I think. With the huge Power Focus, with a catch...
:What edition of SR was that for?

SR1, I'm pretty sure. But that item is NOT a (translation of) standard
thread item such as #10ox seems to be referring to. It would be pretty much
unique, even in the ED world.

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:16:25 EDT
In a message dated 7/9/1999 2:56:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
sommers@*****.edu writes:

> You could have real fun with finding out who the creator was. That has
> "Astral Quest of arbitrarily high level" written all over it.

Actually, the rating of the quest doesn't have to be very intensive at all.
Information is all nice and wonderful, but would really be of little good
given the fact that *most* of the 4th Age Enchanters are way beyond
deceased....

> Also, any ED item is going to get people VERY interested in them. The
> Atlantean Foundation, DIMR, the Tirs, just to name a few.

Ah hell, those are just the obvious ones. The Ordo Maximus, Black Lodge,
Winternight and Illuminates of the New Dawn would be VASTLY more entertaining
IMO.

-K
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:17:10 EDT
In a message dated 7/9/1999 3:05:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> >What was that one adventure that had an Earthdawn item in it? I'm blanking
> >on the name, but the thing looked like a little worm wrapped around a
> >staff. IIRC there was hardly any bonding cost for that. Of course, it did
> >drive the wielder mad...
>
> Bottled Demon. And I believe the artifict ended up in Denver in the
> official plot, after it passed through the runners.

The "Axe" mentioned in the Earthdawn sourcebook I "think" made it's
way to
Denver (the Phoenix Talismongers store).

-K
Message no. 14
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:02:10 EDT
In a message dated 7/9/99 4:05:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> >What was that one adventure that had an Earthdawn item in it? I'm blanking
> >on the name, but the thing looked like a little worm wrapped around a
> >staff. IIRC there was hardly any bonding cost for that. Of course, it did
> >drive the wielder mad...
>
> Bottled Demon. And I believe the artifict ended up in Denver in the
> official plot, after it passed through the runners.
>
> Adam


SPOILER
















The power focus in Bottled Demon looked like a human with a wolf's head
clutching a glowing opal orb, didn't it? I don't remember any snakes.
As far as where it ended up, didn't the goon (??Bloodwing??) take it
back to Tir Tairngire?



-Twist
Message no. 15
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:41:14 -0400
At 07:16 PM 7/9/99 , Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 7/9/1999 2:56:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>sommers@*****.edu writes:
>
> > You could have real fun with finding out who the creator was. That has
> > "Astral Quest of arbitrarily high level" written all over it.
>
>Actually, the rating of the quest doesn't have to be very intensive at all.
>Information is all nice and wonderful, but would really be of little good
>given the fact that *most* of the 4th Age Enchanters are way beyond
>deceased....

Why would that matter? The way I understood ED items to work is that you
needed information about the item at each level to activate these powers.
It wouldn't matter how long ago the person who made it was dead, just that
you got the information. Find a few spirits that remember that long ago and
you're set. The problem being, spirits that old are very reclusive and very
powerful.

> > Also, any ED item is going to get people VERY interested in them. The
> > Atlantean Foundation, DIMR, the Tirs, just to name a few.
>
>Ah hell, those are just the obvious ones. The Ordo Maximus, Black Lodge,
>Winternight and Illuminates of the New Dawn would be VASTLY more entertaining
>IMO.

Of course they would be more interesting than the ones I mentioned. But you
would never see most of the groups that you mentioned coming...
Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:13:33 EDT
In a message dated 7/9/1999 11:42:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

> >Actually, the rating of the quest doesn't have to be very intensive at all.
> >Information is all nice and wonderful, but would really be of little good
> >given the fact that *most* of the 4th Age Enchanters are way beyond
> >deceased....
>
> Why would that matter? The way I understood ED items to work is that you
> needed information about the item at each level to activate these powers.
> It wouldn't matter how long ago the person who made it was dead, just that
> you got the information. Find a few spirits that remember that long ago
and
> you're set. The problem being, spirits that old are very reclusive and
very
> powerful.

True to the vast amount of degree ... however, the game mechanics are just
pure mechanics in SR. For all we know, and you could view it this way,
"Staged Bonding" could be easily configured into an SR campaign (consider the
staged progression of Toxic Potency in Toxic Shamans for instance).

Personally, we've been using Staged Bonding of some of the more special kinds
of items for years now. It gives a level of returns and keeps players
diverted somewhat from focusing all of their karmic rewards into a singular
task.

> >Ah hell, those are just the obvious ones. The Ordo Maximus, Black Lodge,
> >Winternight and Illuminates of the New Dawn would be VASTLY more
> entertaining
> >IMO.
>
> Of course they would be more interesting than the ones I mentioned. But
you
> would never see most of the groups that you mentioned coming...

True, but that is what makes them so much more interesting....

-K
Message no. 17
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:29:33 -0400
On 9 Jul 99, at 12:15, Number Ten Ox wrote:

> I didn't really want a 'cost' translation: I wanted to know how
> hard it is to bond those in ED terms. In other words, what is an ED 3rd
> circle Archer gonna have to pay to bond an item: 300Legend points, 300
> Karma 300 Zorkmids, 300 drops of blood from an African swallow?

Let me, as a ED GM try to help you here though,... While in a
usual SR game you might earn 5-8 karma points, a mid range
ED campaign, say 5th Circle (level) characters will typically
receive anywhere from 600 to 1800 legend points at the end of
a game (in my case, a campaign may last several game
sessions though). That's for completing session goals,
completing the adventure (not always the same thing),
defeating creatures/opponents, acquiring treasure, and
roleplaying. So, that 300 legend points may not be as
precious to you as say 3 karma points.

I don't remember which item you were specifically pointing to,
but each item will have different ranks. That 300 legend point
cost is usually a rank 2 cost. Rank 1 cost is usually 200
legend points. Each rank, or thread that you weave to an item
(costing you the legend points) gives you one and only one of
the abilities the item might possess. That is, a magic sword at
with a thread woven at rank 1 might give the user a two step
bonus to his melee weapon attack.

> I don't intend to introduce more than one ED item. Perhaps two, but only
> after the wonder from the first one has worn off. Given that... they're
> gonna be worth a *boatload* of Karma to bond with. (Besides, I can just
> see the Sotry potential in the very simple requirement of "Know who the
> item's creator was." Simple, in ED. Damned near impossible, in SR.)

You're right about that,... I still have problems with how to
handle Key Knowledges in ED,..

---
What do you want?
I want you never to have been. Failing that, I'd like
to see you dead.
--Merlin, Prince of Chaos; Jurt of the House of Sawall,
Prince of Chaos, by Roger Zelazny
Message no. 18
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
> > >What was that one adventure that had an Earthdawn item in it? I'm
blanking on the name, but the thing looked like a little worm wrapped
around a staff. IIRC there was hardly any bonding cost for that. Of
course, it did drive the wielder mad...
> >
> > Bottled Demon. And I believe the artifict ended up in Denver in
the official plot, after it passed through the runners.
> >
> > Adam
>
>
> SPOILER
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The power focus in Bottled Demon looked like a human with a wolf's
head clutching a glowing opal orb, didn't it? I don't remember any
snakes.
> As far as where it ended up, didn't the goon (??Bloodwing??) take it
back to Tir Tairngire?
> -Twist

I can't recall the exact appearance, but Twist sounds pretty close - it
was definitely a humanoid.

He's also pretty much right with what happened to the statue, although
he left a few details out. The elf sam (Bloodwing or Blackwing - he's
called Bloodwing through most of Bottled Demon, but he's also known as
Blackwing sometimes and in his return appearance in Dragon Hunt he's
called Blackwing) takes it to his masters in Tir Tairngire - AFTER the
runners have gotten a great feathered serpent to destroy its power.

Also, there was NO bonding cost. On the other hand, as whoever asked
the question in the first place suggested, it did do funky things to
the user's mind.

*Doc' wonders if he could make an evil magical focus which filled the
mind of the wielder with visions of an ugly dancing baby (the
Eeurrgha-Chuckup Baby)...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 19
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT)
---Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> Actually, the rating of the quest doesn't have to be very intensive at
> all.
> Information is all nice and wonderful, but would really be of little good
> given the fact that *most* of the 4th Age Enchanters are way beyond
> deceased....

Um. K? As I understand it, ED magical items have progressively cooler
abilities depending on how much you know about the item. It is required
that you know whocreated a sword before you can make the sword
do STR+37 damage. :)

(No, the above was just an example. Really.)

And responding to an earlier thread: the adventure in question was
"Bottled Demon", and featured what I can only assume to be a Horror-tainted
artifact. I'll be running a modified version of it. Soon. Very soon. :)

(I'm going to use Max Rible's modification, too. "Here, you have this
horrible thing. The shaman has been getting dreams about getting a
Great Dragon to destroy it. Go find one." They're in Seattle. If they're
dumb enough to go to Haesslich with the thing, events may get interesting.
Otherwise, their best bet is probably Lowfyr (though they don't know it) or
Hestaby.)

> -K

==--Number 10 Ox.
"It's a big yellow rubber ducky."
"Is it rigger-driven?"


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Message no. 20
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT)
---Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> Actually, the rating of the quest doesn't have to be very intensive at
> all.
> Information is all nice and wonderful, but would really be of little good
> given the fact that *most* of the 4th Age Enchanters are way beyond
> deceased....

Um. K? As I understand it, ED magical items have progressively cooler
abilities depending on how much you know about the item. It is required
that you know whocreated a sword before you can make the sword
do STR+37 damage. :)

(No, the above was just an example. Really.)

And responding to an earlier thread: the adventure in question was
"Bottled Demon", and featured what I can only assume to be a Horror-tainted
artifact. I'll be running a modified version of it. Soon. Very soon. :)

(I'm going to use Max Rible's modification, too. "Here, you have this
horrible thing. The shaman has been getting dreams about getting a
Great Dragon to destroy it. Go find one." They're in Seattle. If they're
dumb enough to go to Haesslich with the thing, events may get interesting.
Otherwise, their best bet is probably Lowfyr (though they don't know it) or
Hestaby.)

> -K

==--Number 10 Ox.
"It's a big yellow rubber ducky."
"Is it rigger-driven?"


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Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:32:26 EDT
In a message dated 7/12/1999 9:14:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
number_10_ox@**********.com writes:

> > Actually, the rating of the quest doesn't have to be very intensive at
> > all.
> > Information is all nice and wonderful, but would really be of little
good
> > given the fact that *most* of the 4th Age Enchanters are way beyond
> > deceased....
>
> Um. K? As I understand it, ED magical items have progressively cooler
> abilities depending on how much you know about the item. It is required
> that you know whocreated a sword before you can make the sword
> do STR+37 damage. :)

Yes, I do realize that ... however, the "Step Damage" stuff wouldn't
translate directly into SR... ;-PPPPP

> (No, the above was just an example. Really.)

I realize that too. What I am saying is just because it's something new or
exciting does NOT mean it has to be all powerful or all consuming.

> And responding to an earlier thread: the adventure in question was
> "Bottled Demon", and featured what I can only assume to be a
Horror-tainted
> artifact. I'll be running a modified version of it. Soon. Very soon. :)
>
> (I'm going to use Max Rible's modification, too. "Here, you have this
> horrible thing. The shaman has been getting dreams about getting a
> Great Dragon to destroy it. Go find one." They're in Seattle. If they're
> dumb enough to go to Haesslich with the thing, events may get interesting.
> Otherwise, their best bet is probably Lowfyr (though they don't know it) or
> Hestaby.)

Preferrably, I would have stayed with Arleesh, as she's the one initially
interested in it.

-K

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Thwap!