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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 12:25:01 2002
Ok none of you can try to kill me for these questions but I've gotta ask
them and I need answers by the end of the day as I won't be around for
the rest of the month and I've gotta decide whether or not to go ahead
and spend the $$ to get the book...


1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
correct?

3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
in SR3 and ED?

4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
setup, or the same D6
rules as SR3?

Derek

(by the way the reference to me not being around is cause I'll be
incapacitated at the hospital in San Antonio, Texas for shoulder
surgery)
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 12:35:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Hyde <dhyde@*********.net>
> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)


Donnot know AD&D, but I would say no

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> correct?

Nope, it is original setting,

> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> in SR3 and ED?

No, only the elves created by dragons, with an notable exception, a female
elve who made a trade with an demon


> 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> setup, or the same D6
> rules as SR3?
> Derek

Uses an quite unique rules system withthe numer of sides varring widly.

> (by the way the reference to me not being around is cause I'll be
> incapacitated at the hospital in San Antonio, Texas for shoulder
> surgery)

Good luck and a short time in hospital


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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 12:35:16 2002
On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Derek Hyde wrote:

> Ok none of you can try to kill me for these questions but I've gotta ask
> them and I need answers by the end of the day as I won't be around for
> the rest of the month and I've gotta decide whether or not to go ahead
> and spend the $$ to get the book...
>
>
> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

I guess you could call it a highly magical post apocolyptic D&D game :)

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> correct?

No, it's the world of shadowrun just after the end of the Scourge (Horror
attack) where people are trying to put the world back together.

>
> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> in SR3 and ED?
>

No, only certain elves are immortal, usually nobility of some sort it
seems by most of the literature.


> 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> setup, or the same D6
> rules as SR3?
>

They use a system based on Steps.

Steps are kind of like averages, if you have a step 3 ability you can hit
on average a target number of 3, there's a large chart which shows how
many dice to roll per step which you can probably find online.

Many links are found of www.lrgames.com which now owns and maintains the
earthdawn line.


> Derek
>
> (by the way the reference to me not being around is cause I'll be
> incapacitated at the hospital in San Antonio, Texas for shoulder
> surgery)
>
>

Good luck.
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 12:40:01 2002
> Ok none of you can try to kill me for these questions but
> I've gotta ask
> them and I need answers by the end of the day as I won't be around for
> the rest of the month and I've gotta decide whether or not to go ahead
> and spend the $$ to get the book...
>
>
> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

Not similar at all. Characters are a unique breed, like a lot of RPGs,
but what makes them different is they use magic in a way to do seemingly
fantastic feats.

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> correct?

Although I don't know nearly as much about LOTR as I should, the setting
is NOT the same, no. Earthdawn was intended as the fantasy past of
Shadowrun. Many of the Immortal Elves of Shadowrun exist in Earthdawn.

> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> in SR3 and ED?

Elves are not necessarily immortal in ED. I'm not quite sure what
exactly makes the few that are immortal. But the sourcebooks put a
lifespan on elves.

> 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> setup, or the same D6
> rules as SR3?

Earthdawn uses it's own unique dice system. Whenever a task is to be
accomplished, your attribute/skill/talent provides a step number, and
the dice you use is based on this step number. Example: step 5 = 1D8;
step 6 = 1D10; step 7 = 1D8+1D6 ... the goal is to achieve a given
target number.

> (by the way the reference to me not being around is cause I'll be
> incapacitated at the hospital in San Antonio, Texas for shoulder
> surgery)

And best of luck with the surgery. Hope the downtime doesn't keep you
too bored. Since the 2nd Edition of Earthdawn has only 2 books released
regarding rules (Earthdawn Base and Earthdawn Companion) it's not realy
much of an expenditure to get started. There's also a campaign resource
and an adventure released for 2nd Edition. If you like, look into some
of the previous edition's sourcebooks, since there's almost no
difference between editions.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Steffens)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 12:45:02 2002
> From: Derek Hyde

> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

Depends what you consider similar. It is a fantasy setting, yes, but the
history and geography is quite different. It's set in the 4th age South
East Europe and the people there were locked up in magically protected
habitats during the time of the horrors. It is generally considered save
enough to get out of those habitats but horrors are still abound.
Player races are humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, windlings (fairy
type characters) and tskrang (bi-pedal lizards). All player characters
(and AFAIK pretty much anyone) use magic. Either as SR type adept
abilities or the "standard" spell casting types.

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> correct?

No, absolutely not. That would be Middle Earth Role-playing Game (MERP).

> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> in SR3 and ED?

No, just a few of them.

> 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> setup, or the same D6
> rules as SR3?

Its rules are very dissimilar from SR. It pretty much uses all the dice
that are around. You still work with target numbers but your skill is
represented by a combination of dice you roll to make that number (e.g.
1D4 for a low level skill up to D20 + D10 + D6 for high levels. The dice
are added together to get the number you roll.


> Derek
>
> (by the way the reference to me not being around is cause I'll be
> incapacitated at the hospital in San Antonio, Texas for shoulder
> surgery)
>
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 13:05:01 2002
At 11:27 AM 1/9/2002 -0600, Derek Hyde wrote:
>Ok none of you can try to kill me for these questions but I've gotta ask
>them and I need answers by the end of the day as I won't be around for
>the rest of the month and I've gotta decide whether or not to go ahead
>and spend the $$ to get the book...
>
>
>1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

No.

They are similar in that they are fantasy and magic, but they depart in
that Earthdawn is more fantastical, and has these nasty creatures called
Horrors (very similar to Lovecraft's Cthulu mythos).

>2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
>correct?

No. Earthdawn is it's own world.

>4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
>setup, or the same D6 rules as SR3?

It uses a Step system. The number and type of dice rolled is dependant on
the level of the skill/attribute used. If I remember correctly the typical
range for a character is from 1 to 20.

1 D4 - 2
2 D4 - 1
3 D4
4 D6
5 D8
6 D10
7 D12
8 2D6
9 D8+D6
10 D10+D6
11 D10+D8
12 2D10
13 D12+D10
14 D20+D4
15 D20+D6
16 D20+D8
17 D20+D10
18 D20+D12
19 D20+2D6
20 D20+D8+D6
21 D20+D10+D6
22 D20+D10+D8
23 D20+2D10
24 D20+D12+D10
25 D20+D10+D8+D4
26 D20+D10+D8+D6
27 D20+D10+2D8
28 D20+2D10+D8
29 D20+D12+D10+D8
30 D20+D10+D8+2D6
31 D20+D10+2D8+D6
32 D20+2D10+D8+D6
33 D20+2D10+2D8
34 D20+3D10+D8
35 D20+D12+2D10+D8
36 2D20+D10+D8+D4
37 2D20+D10+D8+D6
38 2D20+D10+2D8
39 2D20+2D10+D8
40 2D20+D12+D10+D8
41 2D20+D10+D8+2D6
42 2D20+D10+2D8+D6
43 2D20+2D10+D8+D6
44 2D20+2D10+2D8
45 2D20+3D10+D8
46 2D20+D12+2D10+D8
47 2D20+2D10+2D8+D4
48 2D20+2D10+2D8+D6
49 2D20+2D10+3D8
50 2D20+3D10+2D8

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 13:10:01 2002
On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:27:51 -0600
"Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net> wrote:

> Ok none of you can try to kill me for these questions but I've gotta ask
> them and I need answers by the end of the day as I won't be around for
> the rest of the month and I've gotta decide whether or not to go ahead
> and spend the $$ to get the book...
>
>
> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

I haven't seen it firsthand, but it seems to be a bit more
over-the-top in some places (there is a PC race of stone men, and all
that Immortal Elf jazz), and more full of political intrigue.

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> correct?

Nope. That's Middle Earth, and the two worlds are very different.
Both are "mythical pasts" for Earth, but the similarities stop there.

> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> in SR3 and ED?

No, again. In SR, no one really knows how much a regular elf
lives, since the oldest of them would be about 50 by 2060. In ED,
regular elves seem to live about 400 years, with only a handful of
Immortal ones (who are the same people that used to appear in SR).

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 13:25:00 2002
At 11:27 AM -0600 1/9/02, Derek Hyde wrote:
>Ok none of you can try to kill me for these questions but I've gotta ask
>them and I need answers by the end of the day as I won't be around for
>the rest of the month and I've gotta decide whether or not to go ahead
>and spend the $$ to get the book...
>

<spoilers for earthdawn below:
































>1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

not really. earthdawn has a very deep and rich history, and a very
detailed and complex political environment. some of the earthdawn
source books are some of the best i've ever read (more on that later).

the world is extremely high fantasy. magical abilities are more
important than skills and even low-power characters can do some
pretty amazing feats. if you prefer a "realistic" fantasy setting,
earthdawn is probably not for you.

>2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
>correct?

not at all. earthdawn is set in a land called "basaive" which is
geographically located in modern day ukraine and western russia.
according to shadowrun terminology, the time period is during the
fourth world. this timing is based upon a naturally occurring cycle
where the mana level of the world rises, allowing magically active
races and abilities to emerge. ultimately the mana level will rise to
a point where the barrier between our world and the astral will
weaken enough to allow extremely powerful and destructive creatures
("Horrors") to cross into our world.

earthdawn is set at the decline of the fourth world. shadowrun is set
at the beginning of the sixth. the "enemy" mentioned in "harlequin's
back" and others are examples of the vanguard of these horrors.

>3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
>in SR3 and ED?

(note: this is canon for earthdawn. i don't know if this has ever
been confirmed by the SR line developers).
here's the skinny:the immortal elves are the children of greater
dragons mating with normal elves. they were created during the second
age (i think) rebelled during the down cycle of the third age, and
the great dragons banned mating with the other races as a result. a
large part of the political intrigue in earthdawn is a result of this
rebellion.

it has been implied that other races of immortals exist, and it has
been confirmed by lou prosperi (former ED line developer) that an
immortal group of humans, trolls, and t'skrang exist.

>4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
>setup, or the same D6
> rules as SR3?

it's been explained better in other posts. some people hate it, i love it.

as far as whether or not to buy the book, what do you want it for? if
you are looking for material to port over to SR, i'd recommend the
Horrors and Blood Wood source books. the Horrors SB has great stuff
to throw at your players if you plan on heading your campaign in that
direction, and the Blood Wood is all about how those wacky immortals
got their start. another great book is the Dragons sourcebook, which
is available in .pdf format online.

hope this helps. good luck with your surgery.

d.
--
david lowe-rogstad
flash designer + developer
dlowe@****.com
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 13:40:05 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Wed, 09 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

IMHO it's a better game world, as there is a good explanation and a lot of
theory behind important stuff such as magic. It's not just "Magic works"
but "Magic works because..." As you can expect from a FASA game, the world
is detailed and has lots of factions all trying to come out on top.

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> correct?

You're confusing it with Middle Earth (the world of LotR) here. If you want
an RPG set in Middle Earth, try to get hold of a copy of MERP, which stands
for Middle Earth Role-Playing, by the now-defunct Iron Crown Enterprises.
Beware that it's a kind of Rolemaster Light, though, so if you don't like
rolling on lots of tables, MERP may not be for you.

> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> in SR3 and ED?

No. Normal elves live something like 350 to 400 years, IIRC; only a few are
immortal, mostly through magical rituals, making deals with Horrors (rather
nasty magical beasties from ED) and stuff like that.

> 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> setup, or the same D6 rules as SR3?

ED uses all those dice you know from (A)D&D. The way the system works is
that you roll dice belonging to the skill level (or whatever) you're using;
This is called the "step" and is the average roll of the dice, like so:

Step Dice
2 1D4-1
3 1D4
4 1D6
5 1D8
6 1D10
7 1D12
8 2D6
9 1D8+1D6
10 1D10+1D6
11 1D10+1D8
... ...
19 1D10+2D6
20 1D20+1D8+1D6
and so on

The dice are open-ended and added together, so that the total of all the
dice is what you roll. This is used throughout the rules, and makes them
very flexible -- a change in your chances of success is done by changing
the step, in- or decreasing the number of dice you roll. For example, if
you have a step of 5 (1D8) and get a +2 step modifier, you roll step 7 =
1D12.

--
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At the Olympics during the Bronze Age, all winners came third.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 16:45:01 2002
> > 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves
immortal
> > in SR3 and ED?
>
> No, only the elves created by dragons, with an notable exception, a
female
> elve who made a trade with an demon

Actually, that elf was also immortal, but was tricked into making a
deal with a horror for immortality, which the elf already had. Cool
eh.
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 16:50:03 2002
> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

I reckon the best way to describe the feel of the game is Epic Horror
Intrigue, though the world is pretty much adaptable to most campaign
styles fairly easily IMO.

> 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set
in
> correct?

Nope, I believe you're getting confised with a fairly current thread
where some were considering using LoTR as SR's pre-history instead of
Earthdawn, and some were keen to merge concepts from both.

> 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves
immortal
> in SR3 and ED?

No, just the results of the ones that shagged with Great Dragons in
name-giver form, or are related to one of those progeny.

> 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> setup, or the same D6
> rules as SR3?

That's already been explained in another post, but it is a very quick
and simple system.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mister Incognito)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 17:20:01 2002
>3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
>in SR3 and ED?

Dissclaimer: I haven't played ED in ages so whilst the basics'll be correct,
little stuff might be wrong.

No. Normal elves have a lifespan of 350-400 years. There has however been a
bit of confusion over Dragon related elves.

First there are 'Dragonkin'. These are the results of dragons taking human-
or elven, or dwarven etc.- form and mating with an ordinary human female.
IIRC human dragonkin have a lifespan of 300-400 years instead of the normal
100 year maximum along with being magic users, and possible other bonuses
and dissadvantages.

Then you also have the Immortal Elves. These are the true immortals with
immunity to ageing (sp?) and can theoretically live forever- providing
no-one kills them. The original immortals were created by a dragon and a
Passion- kinda like SR's totems only much more powerful- coming together.
The immortallity is genetic meaning that all of the original immortals
childrem will also be immortal, and there kids etc.

Hope that helps.

Flak.

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 17:25:00 2002
> >3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves
immortal
> >in SR3 and ED?
>
> Dissclaimer: I haven't played ED in ages so whilst the basics'll be
correct,
> little stuff might be wrong.
>
> No. Normal elves have a lifespan of 350-400 years. There has however
been a
> bit of confusion over Dragon related elves.
>
> First there are 'Dragonkin'. These are the results of dragons taking
human-
> or elven, or dwarven etc.- form and mating with an ordinary human
female.
> IIRC human dragonkin have a lifespan of 300-400 years instead of the
normal
> 100 year maximum along with being magic users, and possible other
bonuses
> and dissadvantages.

Actually, they're all immortal. None of that ever got to print though,
but there are many hints scattered throughout the books.

> Then you also have the Immortal Elves. These are the true immortals
with
> immunity to ageing (sp?) and can theoretically live forever-
providing
> no-one kills them. The original immortals were created by a dragon
and a
> Passion- kinda like SR's totems only much more powerful- coming
together.
> The immortallity is genetic meaning that all of the original
immortals
> childrem will also be immortal, and there kids etc.

The Passion wasn't necessarily involved, although one of the legends
in the books does say that. The Dragonkin are the result of dragons
mating with namegivers (any of the races except Obsidimen or
Windling), which MAY have been enabled by Garlen, the passion of life.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (James Zealey)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 18:05:01 2002
> 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)

Depends what world.
It's SORT of similar to the standard, home-grown, explore-the-wilderness-and-dungeons
campaign. The world was wiped out by the scourge, everyone hid in magical bunkers, and now
(almost) everyone's come out again. This means that a lot of the world is fairly
unexplored - the landscape has changed, and new dangers abound. In addition, cities which
failed to get to their bunkers in time are abandoned/cursed and ripe for treasure hunters.
There are also some magical bunkers which didn't open - they may simply be biding their
time, or they may have been wiped out, leaving a lair full of monsters and treasure. All,
of course, were protected by traps both magical and mundane.
Finally the old political powers from before the scourge are battling for supremacy in the
new world (one side are a slave-trading economist magocracy, the other are a bunch of
dwarves who hate them).
Oh, and there's heaps of magic. Every player character (2% of the population IIRC) is
(basically) a physad, most of who's skills are actually magically fuelled. Even the
magician characters are more physad-magicians than raw magicians.


"Your gun has 'replica'
written down the side, mine
has 'Ares HVAR'..."

____________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE Web and POP E-mail Service in 14 languages at http://www.zzn.com.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Wed Jan 9 18:20:01 2002
At 10:05 AM +1100 1/10/02, James Zealey wrote:
> > 1. Is earthdawn similar in feel of the worlds to AD&D (2nd edition)
>
>Depends what world.
>There are also some magical bunkers which didn't open - they may
>simply be biding their time, or they may have been wiped out,
>leaving a lair full of monsters and treasure. All, of course, were
>protected by traps both magical and mundane.

it's funny. i recall one of the powers that be explaining that one of
the motivations behind the history of earthdawn was to come up with a
logical explanation for the countryside to be dotted with dungeons
filled with monsters, traps and treasure. of course it grew into a
lot more than that.

>Finally the old political powers from before the scourge are
>battling for supremacy in the new world (one side are a
>slave-trading economist magocracy, the other are a bunch of dwarves
>who hate them).

not to mention the great dragons each with their own plans, the Blood
Wood (the original immortal elves), the trolls of the crystal
mountains, the various trading houses of the t'skrang, the revived
ork nation of Cara Fahad, and the Denastrias who would love to have
all of the above battle it out and then rule what's left. as a gm, i
really love this game.

>Oh, and there's heaps of magic. Every player character (2% of the
>population IIRC) is (basically) a physad, most of who's skills are
>actually magically fuelled. Even the magician characters are more
>physad-magicians than raw magicians.

actually, it's more like 20%. and magic is so prevalent that it acts
much like technology does today. common people use it to heat their
homes, light their way, send messages, transport their persons and
goods, etc. like i said before, it's an extremely high fantasy world.
i never cared for such settings until earthdawn.

d.
--
david lowe-rogstad
flash designer + developer
dlowe@****.com
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Thu Jan 10 13:00:00 2002
--- Thorger_Sünert <thorgersuenert@*****.com> wrote:

> > 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves immortal
> > in SR3 and ED?
>
> No, only the elves created by dragons, with an notable exception, a
> female elve who made a trade with an demon

Sorry. That's wrong.

There are several "lines" of elves that carry the immortality "gene".
It is
not precisely clear how this came about, but the most likely working
assumption is that they are the descendants of the elves produced when
great dragon Alamaise (and possibly others) took elven form and mated with
elven women.


The female elf Thorger refers to is Aine/Aina Dupree (from Scars/Little
Treasures/Worlds Without End, as well as a couple of other places.) Aina
started out immortal -- she was of the immortal bloodline. The demon -- aka
the horror Ysthrgrathe -- made a "deal" with her. It said it would grant
her immortality in return for certain things she would give it. Like most
(all?) deals with demons/Horrors, it wasn't a fair deal at all.

--Number 10
Earthdawn Crossover Afficionado.


====number_10_ox@**********.com IM Nick: number10ox

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Thu Jan 10 13:15:01 2002
At 10:00 AM -0800 1/10/02, Number Ten wrote:
>Sorry. That's wrong.
>
>There are several "lines" of elves that carry the immortality
"gene". It is
>not precisely clear how this came about, but the most likely working
>assumption is that they are the descendants of the elves produced when
>great dragon Alamaise (and possibly others) took elven form and mated with
>elven women.

in earthdawn canon, the immortals are offspring direct descendants of
several (if not all) of the great dragons during the second age.
these immortals rebelled against their sires during the down cycle of
the third age, the bigget results of this rebellion were a couple of
dead dragons ("down-cycle hunting" anyone? anyone?) and the creation
of Thera. (there's more to Thera than that, but lou prosperi won't
spill-he's a tough one to crack).

as a result of this rebellion, the great dragons banned breeding with
the other races, on pain of being separated from dragon society. one
of these dragons broke this compact and was cast out. he created his
own tribes of human, troll, and t'skrang progeny, with possibly
others. maybe some of these made their way into SR, hmm?

d.
--
david lowe-rogstad
flash designer + developer
dlowe@****.com
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Stuart M. Willis)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Thu Jan 10 21:20:00 2002
James doth speweth:

>Finally the old political powers from before the scourge are
>battling for supremacy in the new world (one side are a
>slave-trading economist magocracy, the other are a bunch of dwarves
>who hate them).

Hmm. I wish I had the money to find old Earthdawn books. Must say it
all sounds really intriguing. And, as usual, a potentially good place
for Shadowrun adventure hooks :)

Now. I think that that slave-trading economist magocracy is the
Theran empire, yes? And it sunk and became Atlantis, yes? And hence
the whole Atlantean situation...Were the Therans human or elves
or...??

But who are the dwarves that hate them? I could potentially see an
immortal Dwarf (even it there was only one or two) train up a bunch
of Dwarven fighters in the SR universe to stop the Atlantean
situation and/or anything related to slavetrading. I like that
because most players I've played with, even if they're unfamiliar
with SR prehistory, tend to think of Elves as mystical immortal
beings and Dwarves as these jewel-hunting engineers. Nothing better
than using player psychology (in character) against them. :)

So yeah, more details on this Dwarven nation would be appreciated.


OH, and a side issue:

Say you were around 30-40 at the of the Awakening and you became an
Elf... That means your aging would slow to Elf-Rates, no? And that in
2060 you could be 90 and look like you're 40? Which means, by this
stage, that there would be rumours of Elven longevity, ja?


s.
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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Thu Jan 10 22:40:01 2002
> Now. I think that that slave-trading economist magocracy is the
> Theran empire, yes? And it sunk and became Atlantis, yes? And hence
> the whole Atlantean situation...Were the Therans human or elves
> or...??

They were all races, but the power behind them were the Heavenherds, a
group of all-powerful magicians, within whom there was also the main
controlling cabal of immortal elves who had decided they didn't really
want to be ruled by the Blood Wood (or Wyrm wood as it was then
known).

> But who are the dwarves that hate them? I could potentially see an
> immortal Dwarf (even it there was only one or two) train up a bunch
> of Dwarven fighters in the SR universe to stop the Atlantean
> situation and/or anything related to slavetrading. I like that
> because most players I've played with, even if they're unfamiliar
> with SR prehistory, tend to think of Elves as mystical immortal
> beings and Dwarves as these jewel-hunting engineers. Nothing better
> than using player psychology (in character) against them. :)

The Dwarfs, are the Kingdom of Throal, and they don't really hate the
Therans, they simply oppose the idea of slavery, which is what the
Theran Empire is based upon. They were used to administer the province
by Thera when Thera was much more entrenched before the Scourge, and
as a result, Throalic (or Dwarf) is the common language of the
province. This gives the Dwarfs a fair amount of clout in Barsaive,
but they are still miniscule compared to Thera as a whole.

For shadowrun, some things you might find interesting is that Icewing,
who is probably more familiar as Ghostwalker, hates the Therans with a
passion. If Fanpro keeps the Earthdawn links, it will be interesting
to see what happens to Tir Tairngire now that they have two hostile
Great dragons fairly close by (Hestaby and Ghostwalker).

> So yeah, more details on this Dwarven nation would be appreciated.
>
>
> OH, and a side issue:
>
> Say you were around 30-40 at the of the Awakening and you became an
> Elf... That means your aging would slow to Elf-Rates, no? And that
in
> 2060 you could be 90 and look like you're 40? Which means, by this
> stage, that there would be rumours of Elven longevity, ja?
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Fri Jan 11 10:05:01 2002
--- Benjamin John Hayes <bjh10@***.edu.au> wrote:

> For shadowrun, some things you might find interesting is that Icewing,
> who is probably more familiar as Ghostwalker, hates the Therans with a
> passion. If Fanpro keeps the Earthdawn links, it will be interesting
> to see what happens to Tir Tairngire now that they have two hostile
> Great dragons fairly close by (Hestaby and Ghostwalker).

(1) -IS- Fanpro keeping the Earthdawn links? I will admit, the reason I
stopped running my Shadowrun game for a while was because I was so
disappointed in Mike Mulvihill's apparent move towards a Shadowrun with
much less Earthdawn material. It would be very nice if Fanpro would reverse
the trend.

(2) I am not at all sure that you can draw a parallel between Tir Tairngire
and the Therans. In fact, I am certain that that is NOT the case. Both Tirs
are descendants of the Blood Wood/Wyrm Wood and possibly the "renegade"
Elven nation of Shosara. The only immortal elf of Theran descent in
Shadowrun, as far as I know, is (tah-dah!) Sheila Blatavska, the head of
the Atlantean Foundation. She appears as Hecate in the immortals' confab in
the Aztlan download -- which means that Tir Tairngire might not see grief
from Ghostwalker, but the Atlantean Foundation probably will.

On the other hand, perhaps it won't, because Ghostwalker may well have
bigger fish to fry. Here's something that has been bothering me for a
while.
In the Earthdawn universe and timeline, both Mountainshadow/Dunkelzahn and
Icewing/Ghostwalker, as well as the various immortal elves live in Barsaive
-- aka Central Russia. In Shadowrun Mountainshadow shows up in the US --
okay, fine, that's easily explained. But then Ghostwalker pops up, and the
speculation in YoTC pretty conclusively states that Ghostwalker's meat body
was somewhere near Denver.

Question is -- what the hell was he doing there? And is it a coincidence
that Dunkelzahn, Ghostwalker, -and- a sizeable cabal of immortal elves set
up shop right on the northern border of Aztlan? Come to think of it, just
who is it in Aztlan that Dunkelzahn refers to in the Aztlan book as "our
ancient enemy"? It certainly ain't the elves or the Therans, given who he's
talking to at the time. I'd be tempted to say "The Horrors" except that
this seems more personal, somehow.

Comments? Answers? Thrown fish?

--Number 10


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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gerard)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Fri Jan 11 11:25:01 2002
From: "Number Ten"
> Question is -- what the hell was he doing there? (Talking about
Ghostwalker
> being in "Denver" during the fourth age) And is it a coincidence
> that Dunkelzahn, Ghostwalker, -and- a sizeable cabal of immortal elves set
> up shop right on the northern border of Aztlan? Come to think of it, just
> who is it in Aztlan that Dunkelzahn refers to in the Aztlan book as "our
> ancient enemy"? It certainly ain't the elves or the Therans, given who
he's
> talking to at the time. I'd be tempted to say "The Horrors" except that
> this seems more personal, somehow.
>
> Comments? Answers? Thrown fish?
>
> --Number 10

IIRC from my Earthdawn readings there was an Empire over in the
South American region called Auricanea(sp?) which was run (or heavily
influenced by) Dragons. Somehow connected to this was the big Blood
Magic spat Dragonkind had, apparently there was alot of feathered
serpents ever there, especially around the mexico region I gather, that
were big into blood magic. This possibly precipitated the whole dragonkind
aversion to it. This is mostly from my hazy memories of the ED Dragons
Sourcebook btw. =)

Anyway, what I was getting at was, if there were dragon's set up and staking
territory out in south america, why not north america as well...it's
mentioned
several times in shadowrun that the Great Dragons all have lairs
scattered across the world. Why couldn't Ghostwalker have a setup in
North America during the fourth age? You could teleport around then
practically. He's still got wings, crossing the atlantic wouldn't be that
difficult,
fly up to a high altitude and glide or something, it's not like he's just
using
his muscles... =)

The whole feathered serpent bloodmagic thing could be what gives you
your personal ancient evil perhaps? We know there's some corrupted
feathered serpents roaming around Aztlan now. Maybe that's why Ghostwalker
had a lair in the area back then. Keeping an eye on the feathered serpents
when they were starting to go bad? =)

There was an empire called Nubosh in southern africa during the second
age and possibly still into the fourth but I'm not sure. Alot of feathered
serpents lived there too. Something interesting to spice up
your campaign next time you go collecting Mujaji's talon clippings on
tabletop mountain. ;)

My secondary harddrive crashed recently, taking my copy of the Dragons
Sourcebook. So I can't go over it right now to confirm my post before I
send it. Take with grains of salt. ;)

-Tamino
"All Too Easy!"
sjwinzar@*********.com.au
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lubzens Opher)
Subject: [OT] EarthDawn Questions
Date: Fri Jan 11 13:50:01 2002
> Question is -- what the hell was he doing there? And is it a coincidence
> that Dunkelzahn, Ghostwalker, -and- a sizeable cabal of immortal elves
set
> up shop right on the northern border of Aztlan? Come to think of it,
just
> who is it in Aztlan that Dunkelzahn refers to in the Aztlan book as "our
> ancient enemy"? It certainly ain't the elves or the Therans, given who
he's
> talking to at the time. I'd be tempted to say "The Horrors" except that
> this seems more personal, somehow.

Maybe that outcast great dragon uses SA as his main lair now?

Opher Lubzens
-every light casts shadows
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 01:05:01 2002
> > (1) -IS- Fanpro keeping the Earthdawn links? I will admit, the
reason I
> stopped running my Shadowrun game for a while was because I was so
> disappointed in Mike Mulvihill's apparent move towards a Shadowrun
with
> much less Earthdawn material. It would be very nice if Fanpro would
reverse
> the trend.

I hope so to, that would be good.

> (2) I am not at all sure that you can draw a parallel between Tir
Tairngire
> and the Therans. In fact, I am certain that that is NOT the case.
Both Tirs
> are descendants of the Blood Wood/Wyrm Wood and possibly the
"renegade"
> Elven nation of Shosara. The only immortal elf of Theran descent in
> Shadowrun, as far as I know, is (tah-dah!) Sheila Blatavska, the
head of
> the Atlantean Foundation. She appears as Hecate in the immortals'
confab in
> the Aztlan download -- which means that Tir Tairngire might not see
grief
> from Ghostwalker, but the Atlantean Foundation probably will.

I suspect that both Tirs contain people from both Wyrm Wood and Thera,
as allegiances and philosophies change over the millenia of the low
mana period. To me, Thera would be a combo of Aztlan and Tir
Tairngire. We really don't know enough about Shosara to come up with
much, except for the fact that they're in opposition to Wyrm Wood. I
also don't think Hecate is necessarily Sheila Blatavska. I tend to
thin it is Aina, from Worlds Without End. Some of the references in
the Aztlan book, such as something like "You have a history of
consorting with abominations" and a few other hints tend to give that
impression. If you would like more, I could look them up, but I always
thought that to be the case.

> On the other hand, perhaps it won't, because Ghostwalker may well
have
> bigger fish to fry. Here's something that has been bothering me for
a
> while.
> In the Earthdawn universe and timeline, both
Mountainshadow/Dunkelzahn and
> Icewing/Ghostwalker, as well as the various immortal elves live in
Barsaive
> -- aka Central Russia. In Shadowrun Mountainshadow shows up in the
US --
> okay, fine, that's easily explained. But then Ghostwalker pops up,
and the
> speculation in YoTC pretty conclusively states that Ghostwalker's
meat body
> was somewhere near Denver.

True. I've always thought they may have moved over there to avoid the
more civilised and organised parts of the world at that time.
Something in the eventaual downfall of Thera may also have caused them
to move.

> Question is -- what the hell was he doing there? And is it a
coincidence
> that Dunkelzahn, Ghostwalker, -and- a sizeable cabal of immortal
elves set
> up shop right on the northern border of Aztlan? Come to think of it,
just
> who is it in Aztlan that Dunkelzahn refers to in the Aztlan book as
"our
> ancient enemy"? It certainly ain't the elves or the Therans, given
who he's
> talking to at the time. I'd be tempted to say "The Horrors" except
that
> this seems more personal, somehow.

Could be the Outcast, except he wasn't even thought of at that time. I
still think it was the Horrors myself.
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] EarthDawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 03:20:01 2002
> Maybe that outcast great dragon uses SA as his main lair now?

Possible, but the Outcast was not even thought of when the Aztlan book
was released IIRC.
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 10:00:01 2002
From: "Martin Steffens" <marste@*********.com>
> From: Derek Hyde
> > 2. Earthdawn is the world that the lord of the rings books are set in
> > correct?
>
> No, absolutely not. That would be Middle Earth Role-playing Game (MERP).

Or the upcoming Lord of the Rings RPG from Decipher
http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/rpg/index.html#rpg

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 10:00:06 2002
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
According to Derek Hyde, on Wed, 09 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...
> > 4. what type of dice does ED use? (is it a D20 system, a different
> > setup, or the same D6 rules as SR3?
>
> ED uses all those dice you know from (A)D&D. The way the system works is
> that you roll dice belonging to the skill level (or whatever) you're using;
> This is called the "step" and is the average roll of the dice, like so:
>
> Step Dice
> 2 1D4-1
> 3 1D4
<Snip>
So there is no Step 1, or Step 0?

Does everybody start with Step 2 in all ablilites/skills?

> The dice are open-ended and added together, so that the total of all the
> dice is what you roll.

Is it each individual die that is openended, and is that to be used as in SR,
i.e. if you roll a 4 on your D4 you roll it again and add it to the 4 already
rolled?

Dosn't that lead you to situations where it might be better to have a lower
Step?

I can think of one situation where a Step 3 (D4) would be better than a Step 4
(D6):

With a T# of 6 you have 18.75% chance with Step 3, but only 16.67% chance with
Step 4.

Also with a T# of 8 you have 13.89% chance with Step 4, but only 12.5% chance
with Step 5 (D8).

So if the T# is exactly the same as the highest result you can roll on your dice
(4/6/8/10/12), it would be better for you to have a Step lover.

Although this does not hold true for all results, it does get even more wierd.

Take Step 7 (D12) and Steph 8 (2D6), the chances will be the following:
T# Step 7 Step 8
1 100% 100%
2 91.67% 100%
3 83.33% 97.22%
4 75% 91.67%
5 66.67% 83.33%
6 58.33& 72.22%
7 50% 58.33%
8 41.67% 41.67%
9 33.33% 27.78%
10 25% 16.67%
11 16.67% 8.33%
12 8.33% 2.78%

So with T#'s over 8 you are better of with Step 7 than Step 8???

But at least they keep the system fairly consistent.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
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Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 10:50:00 2002
>Does everybody start with Step 2 in all ablilites/skills?

Every talent is based on an attribute. To determine the step to roll, you
add your talent step to your attribute step. For beginning characters,
attribute steps usually range from 4 - 7 and talent steps are 1 - 2. Thus,
players are usually rolling step 5 - 9 for starting characters.

>Is it each individual die that is openended, and is that to be used as in SR,
>i.e. if you roll a 4 on your D4 you roll it again and add it to the 4 already
>rolled?

Yes. Note that the dice -> step corresponds almost exactly to the average
when you account for the re-roll of high numbers. Thus, step 5 is D8
(average 5) and step 13 is D12 + D10 (average 13).

>Dosn't that lead you to situations where it might be better to have a lower
>Step?

Sometimes. But it isn't significant enough to have a real impact on the
game. The % difference is small, and the cases where it applies are rare.

-----
"Web publishing is no more about HTML than book publishing
is about type fonts." --Henri de Toulouse- LaTech
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 13:45:01 2002
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Sat, 12 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> > Step Dice
> > 2 1D4-1
> > 3 1D4
>
> <Snip>
> So there is no Step 1, or Step 0?

IIRC, step 1 is 1D4-2, and there is no step 0

> Does everybody start with Step 2 in all ablilites/skills?

You roll 4D6 and take the best 3 to determine your attributes, and the step that
goes with each is equal to (Attribute / 3) + 1, rounded down. That means nobody
has step 1 in an attribute, yes; for skill and talent (=magical skill) use, you
add your skill step to the linked attribute's step, so you're never going to get
below step 2 there, either.

> Is it each individual die that is openended, and is that to be used as in
> SR, i.e. if you roll a 4 on your D4 you roll it again and add it to the 4
> already rolled?

Yes.

> Dosn't that lead you to situations where it might be better to have a
> lower Step?
>
> I can think of one situation where a Step 3 (D4) would be better than a
> Step 4 (D6):

That is sometimes the case, yes -- trolls, for example, get a 1D4 karma die (this
is a bit like SR's Karma Pool, except every race has a different die) which is a
reason for some people to take trolls due to the high re-roll chance.

Another problem is that step 14 is D20 + D4 while it could have been 2D12 to make
it a bit more even (at least in the first edition; I don't know if this has been
changed in the recent second ed).

> So with T#'s over 8 you are better of with Step 7 than Step 8???

Did you include the re-rolls in your table? If not, that might change things a
bit, because like I said above, each individual die is re-rolled if it scores its
max.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 17:40:01 2002
From: "Chris Shaffer" <chris@*****.net>
>
> >Is it each individual die that is openended, and is that to be used as in SR,
> >i.e. if you roll a 4 on your D4 you roll it again and add it to the 4 already
> >rolled?
>
> Yes. Note that the dice -> step corresponds almost exactly to the average
> when you account for the re-roll of high numbers. Thus, step 5 is D8
> (average 5) and step 13 is D12 + D10 (average 13).

When you include the open-ended rule, you can't get an exact average. You can
only extrapolate... :-)

> >Dosn't that lead you to situations where it might be better to have a lower
> >Step?
>
> Sometimes. But it isn't significant enough to have a real impact on the
> game. The % difference is small, and the cases where it applies are rare.

I personally think that there is a big difference between 25% and 16.67% as for
T# 10, and Step 7 and Step 8:
> 9 33.33% 27.78%
> 10 25% 16.67%
> 11 16.67% 8.33%
> 12 8.33% 2.78%

But then my numbers for Step 8 was wrong, as i didn't account for only one of
the dice turning up a 6. The table should have looked like this:

T# Step 7 Step 8
1 100% 100%
2 91.67% 100%
3 83.33% 97.22%
4 75% 91.67%
5 66.67% 83.33%
6 58.33& 72.22%
7 50% 58.33%
8 41.67% 47.22%
9 33.33% 37.96%
10 25% 30.56%
11 16.67% 25%
12 8.33% 21.30%

From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
> Did you include the re-rolls in your table? If not, that might change things a
> bit, because like I said above, each individual die is re-rolled if it scores
its
> max.

Nope I forgot that one of the dice would be a 6, while the other would be
something else. I only accounted for the situation where both dice turned up a
6. It should be corrected in the table above, and shows that Step 8 is better
than Step 7 in all cases, actualy quite a lot better.

I havent figured it out for any other Steps, but I'll assume that the case is
the same.

So it seams that there is only realy a "problem" with the chances with single
dice. As soon as you roll multriple dice, the chance to beat a T# will always be
better the higher your Step.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 18:35:01 2002
At 11:45 PM 1/12/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> > Yes. Note that the dice -> step corresponds almost exactly to the average
> > when you account for the re-roll of high numbers. Thus, step 5 is D8
> > (average 5) and step 13 is D12 + D10 (average 13).
>
>When you include the open-ended rule, you can't get an exact average. You can
>only extrapolate... :-)

That's why I said "almost."


-----
"We have become the creatures of these people. Advertising
as news. It's prevalent in every aspect of the press. It's
very skilfully done. The amount of energy and money and
ingenuity applied to corporate spin and corporate lying has
never been greater or more effective than it is now."

"These people" are big corporations. "The biggest delusion
of our time is that great corporations have an ethica
centre. They have absolutely no ethical or moral centre."
--John le Carré
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 18:40:01 2002
At 07:09 PM 1/12/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>You roll 4D6 and take the best 3 to determine your attributes, and the
>step that
>goes with each is equal to (Attribute / 3) + 1, rounded down. That means
>nobody
>has step 1 in an attribute, yes; for skill and talent (=magical skill)
>use, you
>add your skill step to the linked attribute's step, so you're never going
>to get
>below step 2 there, either.

Note that many people choose to use the point-based starting-attribute
system, rather than rolling dice.


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Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Jan 12 20:10:01 2002
> > ED uses all those dice you know from (A)D&D. The way the system
works is
> > that you roll dice belonging to the skill level (or whatever)
you're using;
> > This is called the "step" and is the average roll of the dice,
like so:
> >
> > Step Dice
> > 2 1D4-1
> > 3 1D4
> <Snip>
> So there is no Step 1, or Step 0?
>
> Does everybody start with Step 2 in all ablilites/skills?

I belive there is. When you initially make your character, you
attribute numbers will translate into a step number for that attribute
(it's usually around attribute/3, and there are reasons for most
attributes to be increased later on even though it won't increase a
step number). Most talents and skills aer based on talent or skill
rank + a relevant attribute. So for example melle weapons is based on
the melee weapons rank + dexterity step, for something usually between
7 and 9 for starting characters.

> > The dice are open-ended and added together, so that the total of
all the
> > dice is what you roll.
>
> Is it each individual die that is openended, and is that to be used
as in SR,
> i.e. if you roll a 4 on your D4 you roll it again and add it to the
4 already
> rolled?

Yep, that's exactly the way it works.

> Dosn't that lead you to situations where it might be better to have
a lower
> Step?

Yep, though I believe (Grain of salt) that 2nd Ed has removed some of
these situations by revising the table somewhat.

> I can think of one situation where a Step 3 (D4) would be better
than a Step 4
> (D6):
>
> With a T# of 6 you have 18.75% chance with Step 3, but only 16.67%
chance with
> Step 4.
>
> Also with a T# of 8 you have 13.89% chance with Step 4, but only
12.5% chance
> with Step 5 (D8).
>
> So if the T# is exactly the same as the highest result you can roll
on your dice
> (4/6/8/10/12), it would be better for you to have a Step lover.
>
> Although this does not hold true for all results, it does get even
more wierd.
>
> Take Step 7 (D12) and Steph 8 (2D6), the chances will be the
following:
> T# Step 7 Step 8
> 1 100% 100%
> 2 91.67% 100%
> 3 83.33% 97.22%
> 4 75% 91.67%
> 5 66.67% 83.33%
> 6 58.33& 72.22%
> 7 50% 58.33%
> 8 41.67% 41.67%
> 9 33.33% 27.78%
> 10 25% 16.67%
> 11 16.67% 8.33%
> 12 8.33% 2.78%

Actually in most instances I've found the 2D6 to be much superior, due
to very often getting rerolls from the 6's compared to the D12.
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Vincent Pellerin)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sun Jan 13 02:30:06 2002
david lowe-rogstad <dlowe@****.com> wrote;

> (note: this is canon for earthdawn. i don't know if this has ever
> been confirmed by the SR line developers).
> here's the skinny:the immortal elves are the children of greater
> dragons mating with normal elves. they were created during the second
> age (i think) rebelled during the down cycle of the third age, and
> the great dragons banned mating with the other races as a result. a
> large part of the political intrigue in earthdawn is a result of this
> rebellion.
>
> it has been implied that other races of immortals exist, and it has
> been confirmed by lou prosperi (former ED line developer) that an
> immortal group of humans, trolls, and t'skrang exist.

Benjamin John Hayes <bjh10@***.edu.au> wrote;

> > 3. (not really a Earthdawn particular question) Are ALL elves
> immortal
> > in SR3 and ED?
>
> No, just the results of the ones that shagged with Great Dragons in
> name-giver form, or are related to one of those progeny.



Could somebody give me a reference to the shagging with namegiver or
creating of the immortal elves. ( I have a printed copy of the dragon
web-sourcebook of ED, is it all in there?)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sun Jan 13 06:05:01 2002
> Could somebody give me a reference to the shagging with namegiver or
> creating of the immortal elves. ( I have a printed copy of the
dragon
> web-sourcebook of ED, is it all in there?)

Yeah, it's all in there, in the Alamaise section I believe, though I
think the shagging is more implied than anything else. It could also
be in the first section with Vasdenjas pontificating, around the place
where he demonstrates the fact that Greats can transform into
namegiver form.
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sun Jan 13 17:25:02 2002
>From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
>Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:45:39 +0100
>
>When you include the open-ended rule, you can't get an exact average. You can
>only extrapolate... :-)

Sorry to disappoint you, but you can. Let's get a dice with d sides. To get
the average of the results with this dice, open-ended style, you just have
to mulitply its usual average (d+1)/2 by d/(d-1). This last factor is the
sum of the (converging) numercial serie 1+1/d+1/d²+1/d^3....

You therefore get for the various dices:
Dice Normal Open-Ended
D4 2.5 3.33
D6 3.5 4.2
D8 4.5 5.14
D10 5.5 6.11
D12 6.5 7.09
D20 10.5 11.05

Using these averages, the Earthdawn step values are indeed quite close to
the dice rolled averages. An going from D12 to 2D6 is, despite appearences,
one of the most interesting step progress (7.09 to 8.4.)

Molloy
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Mon Jan 14 03:25:03 2002
Stuart M. Willis writes:

> Say you were around 30-40 at the of the Awakening and you became an
> Elf... That means your aging would slow to Elf-Rates, no? And that in
> 2060 you could be 90 and look like you're 40? Which means, by this
> stage, that there would be rumours of Elven longevity, ja?

I'm pretty sure that Elves and Dwarfs are _born_ in SR. Thus the first elf
was born around the time of the Awakening. OTOH, Orks and Trolls can either
Goblinise or be born. The first Orks and Trolls Goblinised around the time
of the Awakening. Since then, the vast majority of Orks and Trolls have been
born, not Goblinised. Thus, no matter what way you look at it, barring spike
babies and IEs, the oldest elf is only going to be as old as the Awakening.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Mon Jan 14 03:35:03 2002
Lars Wagner Hansen writes:

> But then my numbers for Step 8 was wrong, as i didn't account for only one
> of the dice turning up a 6. The table should have looked like this:
>
> T# Step 7 Step 8
> ...
> 8 41.67% 47.22%
> ...
>
> Nope I forgot that one of the dice would be a 6, while the other would be
> something else. I only accounted for the situation where both dice turned
> up a 6. It should be corrected in the table above, and shows that Step 8 is
> better than Step 7 in all cases, actualy quite a lot better.

Except for TN 8...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Mon Jan 14 06:35:01 2002
According to Damion Milliken, on Mon, 14 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> > T# Step 7 Step 8
> > ...
> > 8 41.67% 47.22%
> > ...
> >
> > Nope I forgot that one of the dice would be a 6, while the other would
> > be something else. I only accounted for the situation where both dice
> > turned up a 6. It should be corrected in the table above, and shows
> > that Step 8 is better than Step 7 in all cases, actualy quite a lot
> > better.
>
> Except for TN 8...

How do you figure that? Unless I'm seriously mistaken, I'd say a 47.22% chance
of success is better than a 41.67% chance :)

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Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Mon Jan 14 08:45:01 2002
Gurth writes:

> > > 8 41.67% 47.22%
>
> How do you figure that? Unless I'm seriously mistaken, I'd say a 47.22%
> chance of success is better than a 41.67% chance :)

I'd say that I figured it because I'm blind ;-). Or maybe because the font I
use has the numeral "one" with a rather overly large top on it, and because
I misread (5 times on three separate occasions...) it as a "seven".

Whoops! <Whacks self with wet carp> <*Squelching noise*>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Thu Jan 24 15:50:01 2002
From: "Achille Autran" <aautran@****.fr>
> >From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
> >Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:45:39 +0100
> >
> >When you include the open-ended rule, you can't get an exact average. You can
> >only extrapolate... :-)
>
> Sorry to disappoint you, but you can. Let's get a dice with d sides. To get
> the average of the results with this dice, open-ended style, you just have
> to mulitply its usual average (d+1)/2 by d/(d-1). This last factor is the
> sum of the (converging) numercial serie 1+1/d+1/d²+1/d^3....

Just shows that it realy is to long time since i took my statistical course :-)

Thanks for the correction, I'll remember this to the next time any statistical
questions comes up.

Lars
--
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Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [OT] Earthdawn Questions
Date: Sat Feb 2 09:00:01 2002
From: "Achille Autran" <aautran@****.fr>
> >From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
> >Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:45:39 +0100
> >
> >When you include the open-ended rule, you can't get an exact average. You can
> >only extrapolate... :-)
>
> Sorry to disappoint you, but you can. Let's get a dice with d sides. To get
> the average of the results with this dice, open-ended style, you just have
> to mulitply its usual average (d+1)/2 by d/(d-1). This last factor is the
> sum of the (converging) numercial serie 1+1/d+1/d²+1/d^3....

Isn't that extrapolating?

Lars
--
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