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From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	[OT] Euro question
Date:	Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:29:11 +0000

Message no. 1 > > On a side note, I was very, very wrong about Europe. EMU - European Monetary
> > Union - is now reality. There'll be a ten year transition period, but it's now
> > a done deal. I didn't expect that! I didn't expect that at all... always
> > thought some nationalist fuck would railroad the deal. Interesting....
> > Will be fun to see what happens next. Perhaps.
>
> More like four years. Next year banks and other businesses can/will start
> handling transactions in Euros, and from 2002 (I believe) we'll get them
> in our wallets too. That should finally put a stop to those German
> tourists asking how many Marks something costs :)

Which countries opted out? The rumors I heard said that Britain and
Germany weren't going to go with the Euro yet...but I never heard the
final word. I didn't hear anything about Hol^H^H^H the Netherlands
though...

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 11:41:04 +0100

Message no. 2 Brett Borger said on 8:29/30 Apr 98...

> Which countries opted out? The rumors I heard said that Britain and
> Germany weren't going to go with the Euro yet...but I never heard the
> final word. I didn't hear anything about Hol^H^H^H the Netherlands
> though...

IIRC the UK and Denmark decided not to change to the Euro yet, Greece
doesn't meet the requirements (basically, their economy isn't up to it
according to the EU), and Belgium and Italy are only just in. Germany is
definitely in AFAIK, at least as far as the government is concerned; all
they need to do is convince the people in the street, and that's usually
done in this part of the world by adopting something and forcing people to
use it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 08:48:22 +0000

Message no. 3 > they need to do is convince the people in the street, and that's usually
> done in this part of the world by adopting something and forcing people to
> use it :)

That's how it's done in this part of the world too. Right Mr. Gates?

Keeping that from becoming another browser war...I've noted that the
computer industry lends itself to monopolies because of compatibility
and downward compatibility issues. (AT&T, IBM, and now Microsoft are
all major examples). NOW, we bring anti-trust stuff against them.
in SR, that is not an option...do we really believe that Fuchi, MCT,
and Renraku all fight over Matrix 'ware as long as they have? Or was
it trully doomed to failure, as Apple has shown us and <spoiler
snipped> is showing us in Blood in the Boardroom?

Where would a future Linix be? Could a future Linix be?

(For those of you who are not familiar with Linix, it is a free,
user-supported UNIX-based operating system, primarily for Intel
processors. It is arguably more efficient and stable than many other
operating systems, but lacks corporate acceptance since no ONE is
responsible for it.)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 08:57:34 -0400

Message no. 4 Brett Borger wrote:
>> they need to do is convince the people in the street, and that's usually
>> done in this part of the world by adopting something and forcing people to
>> use it :)
>
>That's how it's done in this part of the world too. Right Mr. Gates?
[snip]
>Where would a future Linix be? Could a future Linix be?

First off, it's "Linux". Second - you should already know the answer.
Basically *all* computers connected to the net were trashed and the
Matrix rose out of its ashes.
>
>(For those of you who are not familiar with Linix, it is a free,
>user-supported UNIX-based operating system, primarily for Intel
>processors. It is arguably more efficient and stable than many other
>operating systems, but lacks corporate acceptance since no ONE is
>responsible for it.)

That's changing. Suits don't accept it, but the developers and admins
are really starting to get organized. I've got a whole slew of links
if anybody's interested.

James Ojaste

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 09:17:29 +0000

Message no. 5 > >Where would a future Linix be? Could a future Linix be?
>
> First off, it's "Linux". Second - you should already know the answer.
> Basically *all* computers connected to the net were trashed and the
> Matrix rose out of its ashes.

Opps, My hideious spelling strikes again. I thought something looked
wrong. "Linux". But you missed my point...not Linux itself, but a
user-supported system, competing with the products of the mega-corps.
(And don't anyone say it can't be done, because that is exactly
what Linux is doing.) It's pretty hard to defeat it too...if a
mega-corp is hard to hit because it's physical assets are spread,
imagine trying to stamp out knowledge. It's a meme.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 09:17:01 -0400

Message no. 6 Brett Borger wrote:
>> >Where would a future Linix be? Could a future Linix be?
>>
>> First off, it's "Linux". Second - you should already know the answer.
>> Basically *all* computers connected to the net were trashed and the
>> Matrix rose out of its ashes.
>
>Opps, My hideious spelling strikes again. I thought something looked
>wrong. "Linux". But you missed my point...not Linux itself, but a
>user-supported system, competing with the products of the mega-corps.

Ah. Different story altogether...

> (And don't anyone say it can't be done, because that is exactly
>what Linux is doing.) It's pretty hard to defeat it too...if a
>mega-corp is hard to hit because it's physical assets are spread,
>imagine trying to stamp out knowledge. It's a meme.

Heh - not really. A non-mega OS wouldn't have a snowball's chance
in hell. Why? Linux gets to use the laws of the land against MS.
MS can't become a monopoly. MS can't send a squad of goons to hit
Linus. The megas can...

Anything MS sees as a threat, it can only defeat through publicity.
Something that a mega sees as a threat is likely to go Boom! in the
night.

James Ojaste

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 09:42:23 +0000

Message no. 7 > > (And don't anyone say it can't be done, because that is exactly
> >what Linux is doing.) It's pretty hard to defeat it too...if a
> >mega-corp is hard to hit because it's physical assets are spread,
> >imagine trying to stamp out knowledge. It's a meme.
>
> Heh - not really. A non-mega OS wouldn't have a snowball's chance
> in hell. Why? Linux gets to use the laws of the land against MS.
> MS can't become a monopoly. MS can't send a squad of goons to hit
> Linus. The megas can...

Hmm, I need to practice speaking more...wherever my points keep
going, they aren't making it to you :)

Linux (save Caldera) doesn't use the laws of the land against anyone.
It just exists. But is keeps surviving and improving.

> Anything MS sees as a threat, it can only defeat through publicity.
> Something that a mega sees as a threat is likely to go Boom! in the
> night.

That was my point though...what's going to go Boom!? Every Linux
user? Very Difficult. What else is there to go Boom!? The BBS's
that information is traded on? You'll have to kill most of existing
BBS's to get it to work. It's a meme: A concept that spreads like a
virus, difficult to stamp out.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 09:48:26 -0400

Message no. 8 Brett Borger wrote:
>> > (And don't anyone say it can't be done, because that is exactly
>> >what Linux is doing.) It's pretty hard to defeat it too...if a
>> >mega-corp is hard to hit because it's physical assets are spread,
>> >imagine trying to stamp out knowledge. It's a meme.
>>
>> Heh - not really. A non-mega OS wouldn't have a snowball's chance
>> in hell. Why? Linux gets to use the laws of the land against MS.
>> MS can't become a monopoly. MS can't send a squad of goons to hit
>> Linus. The megas can...
>
>Hmm, I need to practice speaking more...wherever my points keep
>going, they aren't making it to you :)
>
>Linux (save Caldera) doesn't use the laws of the land against anyone.
> It just exists. But is keeps surviving and improving.

Nothing just exists. Everything is related to every other thing,
somehow. Let me rephrase my statement. Linux is protected by the
laws of the land. If Microsoft weren't restricted by those laws,
Linux would be dead.

>> Anything MS sees as a threat, it can only defeat through publicity.
>> Something that a mega sees as a threat is likely to go Boom! in the
>> night.
>
>That was my point though...what's going to go Boom!? Every Linux
>user? Very Difficult. What else is there to go Boom!? The BBS's
>that information is traded on? You'll have to kill most of existing
>BBS's to get it to work. It's a meme: A concept that spreads like a
>virus, difficult to stamp out.

The megas would never let Linux get to the point where it is now.
They'd nip it in the bud - "Hey, I hear XX has developed a new OS
with some possibility of promise! If we can't have it, no one can."

Memes are beside the point - most people would never know about the
OS, and those that did wouldn't be able to do much. If they develop
in secret (very difficult, unless you're the only one working on it,
and you're not connected to the net), then it's no threat. If they
then release it simultaneously everywhere, Mega #1 ties things up
legally while Mega #2 writes virii to combat the OS directly, while
Mega #3 kills the author(s) to discourage further development.

James Ojaste

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 10:20:46 -0400

Message no. 9 On Friday, May 01, 1998 9:48 AM, Ojaste,James =
[NCR][SMTP:James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA] wrote:

> The megas would never let Linux get to the point where it is now.
> They'd nip it in the bud - "Hey, I hear XX has developed a new OS
> with some possibility of promise! If we can't have it, no one can."
>
> Memes are beside the point - most people would never know about the
> OS, and those that did wouldn't be able to do much. If they develop
> in secret (very difficult, unless you're the only one working on it,
> and you're not connected to the net), then it's no threat. If they
> then release it simultaneously everywhere, Mega #1 ties things up
> legally while Mega #2 writes virii to combat the OS directly, while
> Mega #3 kills the author(s) to discourage further development.

Eh? Megacorps don't co-operate. They might do this kind of thing =
independently (each trying to kill this thing) but I'm not sure they'd =
manage to do it simultaneously. Besides, even in Shadowrun, there are =
plenty of independent outfits with no ties at all to the megacorporate =
community members. It's just plain innefficient to stamp out =
*everything* that isn't Big 8. Much cheaper to co-opt it it it becomes =
popular. Ever hear of an economic term called 'opportunity cost'? =
Basically, compare the costs of what you want to do to the profits =
gained.

In short, I don't think the megacorps are going to do much more at the =
beginning of the lifecycle of a product like this to stop it, because =
they can't make decisions fast enough, and by the time they'd see =
'Linux' (or any other nifty grassroots product)as a threat, it will be =
established in the market niche. At this point, corporate FUD (fear, =
uncertainty, doubt) tactics can keep the damage minimal, and the corps =
are running FUD tactics ANYWAY against other corps.

Why send a special ops team when you are already paying your advertizing =
firm?

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [OT] Euro question
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 10:32:22 -0400

Message no. 10 Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>> The megas would never let Linux get to the point where it is now.
>> They'd nip it in the bud - "Hey, I hear XX has developed a new OS
>> with some possibility of promise! If we can't have it, no one can."
>>
>> Memes are beside the point - most people would never know about the
>> OS, and those that did wouldn't be able to do much. If they develop
>> in secret (very difficult, unless you're the only one working on it,
>> and you're not connected to the net), then it's no threat. If they
>> then release it simultaneously everywhere, Mega #1 ties things up
>> legally while Mega #2 writes virii to combat the OS directly, while
>> Mega #3 kills the author(s) to discourage further development.
>
>Eh? Megacorps don't co-operate. They might do this kind of thing
>independently (each trying to kill this thing) but I'm not sure they'd manage
>to do it simultaneously. Besides, even in

Yeah, I know - I was just making the point that there are several
ways that while even borderline legal, even Microsoft wouldn't try
nowadays.

>Shadowrun, there are plenty of independent outfits with no ties at all to the
>megacorporate community members. It's just plain innefficient to stamp out
>*everything* that isn't Big 8. Much cheaper to co-opt it it it becomes
>popular. Ever hear of an economic term called 'opportunity cost'? Basically,
>compare the costs of what you want to do to the profits gained.

Or rather compare the cost of the operation with the potential loss...

>In short, I don't think the megacorps are going to do much more at the
>beginning of the lifecycle of a product like this to stop it, because they
>can't make decisions fast enough, and by the time they'd see 'Linux' (or any
>other nifty grassroots product)as a threat, it will be established in the
>market niche. At this point, corporate FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) tactics
>can keep the damage minimal, and the corps are running FUD tactics ANYWAY
>against other corps.

>Why send a special ops team when you are already paying your advertizing
>firm?

Linux is fighting an uphill battle against MS - it's had a more
technologically advanced, more stable, more customizable, more
efficient OS for years now and has only got a toehold with MS sticking
to their standard FUD tactics. I was trying to point out that the
megas aren't *restricted* to FUD. They can take the next step if
they deem it necessary - if MS tried that, they'd be toast.

In short, the Megas can do everything that MS can, and more. They
have more money to spend on advertising/astroturf campaigns, the
actual possibility of attacking the people responsible, whatever.
I don't see how a freed OS could hold up against that.

James Ojaste

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