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Message no. 1
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:46:04 +0200
According to Paul J. Adam, on Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:29:14 +0100 the word on
the street was...

> Not quite true. 'Offensive' grenades are designed to produce *small*
> fragments, not no fragments: 'defensive' grenades produce large, often
> less-controlled fragments. (I'm using the terms in their real-world
> sense - reverse this for SR)
[snip DM51 and L2 grenades]

OTOH, in the Dutch army, grenades are classified as either fragmentation or
offensive, the latter being simply plastic bodies containing just an
explosive charge and a detonator. According to the manual, bits of the
detonator can be projected out to 160 m but there is no mention of other
fragments, whereas the description of fragmentation grenades talks about
how a radius of 300 m around the detonation point needs to be considered
unsafe under peacetime training conditions

My conclusion: what is an offensive, and what a defensive grenade depends
is not as easy to pin down as it may seem :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:26:11 -0600
'Would you MIND not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons please?'

According to the manual, bits of the
detonator can be projected out to 160 m but there is no mention of other

fragments, whereas the description of fragmentation grenades talks about

how a radius of 300 m around the detonation point needs to be considered

unsafe under peacetime training conditions

[>] 160, and 300 meter? Got a foot conversion on that. That seems like
a whole hell o a lot larger than what American baseball grenades can do.


Scott
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:57:50 +0200
According to Scott, on Friday 04 June 2004 08:26 the word on the street
was...

> [>] 160, and 300 meter? Got a foot conversion on that. That seems like
> a whole hell o a lot larger than what American baseball grenades can do.

Multiply by 3 for a rough guide. More precisely, you get 525 and 1000 feet
(after rounding to sensible numbers, anyway :) This is the safety radius
for training, though, not for combat use.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:38:19 -0300
That´s something that i just love in SR, metric system :-)

I began my cursed path into RPG with D&D back in the 80´s and, as a
young kid, i found no fun in making foot/meter calculations everytime
someone casts a fireball or celsius/fahrenheit everytime someone uses
"protection from heat"...

Will

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:57:50 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
>
> Multiply by 3 for a rough guide. More precisely, you get 525 and 1000 feet
> (after rounding to sensible numbers, anyway :) This is the safety radius
> for training, though, not for combat use.
>
>
Message no. 5
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:04:01 +0200
Wilson Reis wrote:
> That´s something that i just love in SR, metric system :-)
>
> I began my cursed path into RPG with D&D back in the 80´s
> and, as a young kid, i found no fun in making foot/meter
> calculations everytime someone casts a fireball or
> celsius/fahrenheit everytime someone uses "protection from heat"...
>
> Will
>

So why do it? I grew up with US measurements and as such I can't think in
metric, somewhat the opposite of yourself I'd imagine. But the game system
is designed around a particular measurement system and everything is done
for you. It's all relative. Why bother with the conversions? I might not
understand how far 10 meters is but that doesn't hinder my ability to play
or GM SR.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 6
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:38:16 -0300
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:04:01 +0200, Steve Garrard
<steveg@***********.co.za> wrote:

> It's all relative. Why bother with the conversions? I might not
> understand how far 10 meters is but that doesn't hinder my ability to play
> or GM SR.
>

If you are GMing it´s normally easier to give descriptions which are
easily recognizable for the players. After saying that a certain
building has 20 meters, how to know the number of rounds the thief
will take to climb it if "climb walls" is measured in feet ? Most of
this can be rounded to the 1:3 scale, but depending on the player/GM,
the need for precision might raise.

Will
Message no. 7
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 16:13:31 +0200
Wilson Reis wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:04:01 +0200, Steve Garrard
> <steveg@***********.co.za> wrote:
>
> > It's all relative. Why bother with the conversions? I might not
> > understand how far 10 meters is but that doesn't hinder my
> ability to
> > play or GM SR.
> >
>
> If you are GMing it´s normally easier to give descriptions
> which are easily recognizable for the players. After saying
> that a certain building has 20 meters, how to know the number
> of rounds the thief will take to climb it if "climb walls" is
> measured in feet ? Most of this can be rounded to the 1:3
> scale, but depending on the player/GM, the need for precision
> might raise.
>
> Will

I work with whichever system the game mechanics are written for. In the
event of GMing SR, I may need to do some conversions when drawing up maps
during prep time, but never on-the-fly, since I don't have to understand the
length of a meter. Provided I know how many meters a PC can move per pass,
the reach/range of their weapon, etc., the rest is just relative numbers.

Anyway, to each his own. I understand the "comfort" factor; playing D&D was
always a little bit easier for me from the measurements perspective, but I
never found the metric-based systems to be prohibitive.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 8
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:52:08 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Scott, on Friday 04 June 2004 08:26 the word on the
> street
> was...
>
> > [>] 160, and 300 meter? Got a foot conversion on that. That seems
> like
> > a whole hell o a lot larger than what American baseball grenades
> can do.
>
> Multiply by 3 for a rough guide. More precisely, you get 525 and 1000
> feet
> (after rounding to sensible numbers, anyway :) This is the safety
> radius
> for training, though, not for combat use.

Sure, or just think in terms of yards (plus a little bit). 100 meters
= a football field plus about an end zone. I never played much
football, but football fields are still the only largish distance I can
picture with accuracy. (Yes, I mean american football. I actually
have no idea how long a soccer field is, even though I played it for
several years as a kid.)

Going back to the example, I don't think anyone is claiming that
there's any significant chance of damage at 300 meters/1000 feet, just
enough for the occasional accident. I can see it now... rule of ones.

Mark





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Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:45:07 +0200
According to Steve Garrard, on Friday 04 June 2004 14:04 the word on the
street was...

> So why do it? I grew up with US measurements and as such I can't think
> in metric, somewhat the opposite of yourself I'd imagine. But the game
> system is designed around a particular measurement system and everything
> is done for you. It's all relative. Why bother with the conversions?

The trouble is that players tend to say stuff like "I'll approach to within
about a hundred meters of the castle wall, and then I want to shoot the
guard on top with my crossbow" -- leaving the GM work out whether the
crossbow, which as ranges listed in feet, can shoot a hundred meters or
not. And it's a problem the other way around, too: if the GM says "The
kobolds are about 50 feet away from you" (with the reasoning behind it
that this way, the players will know if they are in range or not) it will
lead to questions of "How much is that in real measurements?"

There is only one real solution: convert the US to metric...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:49:58 +0200
According to Mark Shieh, on Friday 04 June 2004 18:52 the word on the
street was...

> Sure, or just think in terms of yards (plus a little bit).

Add 10% to yards to get meters, or deduct it to go from meters to yards.
For small distances, this isn't going to matter -- "The door is 2 yards
away from you" is the same as "The door is 2 meters away from you". It may
be important when firing weapons at long range, though: "The bad guy is
600 yards away" -- is that in range of an assault rifle, or isn't it?
(Yes, it is, but only just :)

> (Yes, I mean american football. I actually
> have no idea how long a soccer field is, even though I played it for
> several years as a kid.)

A proper football field is about 100 meters long, but AFAIK it can vary a
bit from field to field.

> Going back to the example, I don't think anyone is claiming that
> there's any significant chance of damage at 300 meters/1000 feet, just
> enough for the occasional accident. I can see it now... rule of ones.

That's a good point, yes -- the Rule of One might cause there to be damage
at such a distance *EGMT*

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:18:13 -0500
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:45:07 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Steve Garrard, on Friday 04 June 2004 14:04 the word on the
> street was...
>
>> So why do it? I grew up with US measurements and as such I can't think
>> in metric. But the game
>> system is designed around a particular measurement system and everything
>> is done for you. It's all relative. Why bother with the conversions?
>
> The trouble is that players tend to say stuff like "I'll approach to
> within
> about a hundred meters of the castle wall, and then I want to shoot the
> guard on top with my crossbow" -- leaving the GM work out whether the
> crossbow can shoot a hundred meters or
> not. And it's a problem the other way around, too: if the GM says "The
> kobolds are about 50 feet away from you" it will
> lead to questions of "How much is that in real measurements?"
>
> There is only one real solution: convert the US to metric...

I agree. The metric system is cleaner and it's not that hard to think in,
even for <frenchy>stupid americans</frenchy> like me. If even you can't
think in it most of the convertions are pretty easy. km * 5/3 = mi. m *
4/3 = ft. cm * 2/5 = in. deltaC * 9/5 = deltaF. L / 4 = G. kg * 11/5 (or
2) = lb.

--
Da Twink Daddy
ICQ: 514984; YM: DaTwinkDaddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Message no. 12
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 21:56:52 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: "Da Twink Daddy" <datwinkdaddy@*******.com>
> I agree. The metric system is cleaner and it's not that hard to think
in,
> even for <frenchy>stupid americans</frenchy> like me. If even you
can't
> think in it most of the convertions are pretty easy. km * 5/3 = mi.

Ummm, no. swap those figures round, as curently you have 1km = 1.66mi.
And 5/8 is a closer ratio than 3/5 without making the maths much harder.

km * 5/8 = mi
mi * 8/5 = km

> m * 4/3 = ft.
yd not ft...

> cm * 2/5 = in.
yeah, close enough

> deltaC * 9/5 = deltaF.
yup. And then add 32 to get actual F.

> L / 4 = G
close enough, *2/9 would be even closer

>. kg * 11/5 (or
> 2) = lb.
Yeah, *2.2

Matt


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Message no. 13
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:26:15 -0400
At 12:52 PM 6/4/2004, Mark Shieh wrote:
>Sure, or just think in terms of yards (plus a little bit). 100 meters
>= a football field plus about an end zone. I never played much
>football, but football fields are still the only largish distance I can
>picture with accuracy. (Yes, I mean american football. I actually
>have no idea how long a soccer field is, even though I played it for
>several years as a kid.)

If my memory serves, a regulation international football field (aka soccer)
is about the length of a football field /including/ the end zones.

I actually had one game (Robotech, for those that care) where I took a
younger player out driving to show him how large the ship in question was.
It just so happens that my city has a pair of highway bridges that are
exactly a mile apart. I drove up on one and stopped, then pointed to the
other one and said "This is a mile."

The response I got was. "Wow... It's that big?"

Then I turned and pointed towards the one about five miles up the road and
told him that was the length of the hostile vessel. :)

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:09:26 +0200
According to Matthew Bond, on Friday 04 June 2004 22:56 the word on the
street was...

> > m * 4/3 = ft.
>
> yd not ft...

The easier way to do it is multiply/divide by 3 and then add/subtract 10%
for feet <-> meters -- or just add/subtract 10% for meters <-> yards. This
is much easier to do without a calculator than trying to multiply by
fractions straight away.

> > deltaC * 9/5 = deltaF.
>
> yup. And then add 32 to get actual F.

Divide by 2 then add 30 gets you close enough.

> > L / 4 = G
>
> close enough, *2/9 would be even closer

For British gallons, add or subtract 10% again (US gallon = 3.8 liters,
British gallon = 4.5 liters).

> >. kg * 11/5 (or
> > 2) = lb.
>
> Yeah, *2.2

Again, divide or multiply by 2, then subtract or add 10%.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:02:52 +0200
Da Twink Daddy wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:45:07 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> > According to Steve Garrard, on Friday 04 June 2004 14:04
> the word on
> > the street was...
> >
> >> So why do it? I grew up with US measurements and as such I can't
> >> think in metric. But the game system is designed around a
> particular
> >> measurement system and everything is done for you. It's
> all relative.
> >> Why bother with the conversions?
> >
> > The trouble is that players tend to say stuff like "I'll
> approach to
> > within about a hundred meters of the castle wall, and then
> I want to
> > shoot the guard on top with my crossbow" -- leaving the GM work out
> > whether the crossbow can shoot a hundred meters or not. And it's a
> > problem the other way around, too: if the GM says "The kobolds are
> > about 50 feet away from you" it will lead to questions of
> "How much is
> > that in real measurements?"
> >
> > There is only one real solution: convert the US to metric...
>
> I agree. The metric system is cleaner and it's not that hard
> to think in, even for <frenchy>stupid americans</frenchy>
> like me. If even you can't think in it most of the
> convertions are pretty easy. km * 5/3 = mi. m *

Actually I have to disagree. I grew up with the US measurement system and as
such learned to think in it. I've since then moved to a metric country where
I've been living for a dozen years, and to this day it simply isn't natural
for me to think in metric. I know the system in and out and understand the
math, but when I want to judge distance, for example, like how far between
here and there, I can only think in feet or yards.

As for D&D I think they opted to keep the system in US measurements because
of the flavor. There was no metric in medieval times (of course, there was
no US either, but since "Imperial measurements" don't mean anything anymore
since the Brits sold out to metric... ;) ) and as such talking about the
range of my crossbow in meters just wouldn't "feel" right.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 16
From: Johannes.Lemken@***.net (Johannes Lemken)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:28:46 +0200
> As for D&D I think they opted to keep the system in US measurements
> because
> of the flavor. There was no metric in medieval times (of course, there
> was
> no US either, but since "Imperial measurements" don't mean anything
> anymore
> since the Brits sold out to metric... ;) ) and as such talking about the
> range of my crossbow in meters just wouldn't "feel" right.
>

But they only kept it for those who are not familiar with the metric
system,
because in Germany for example the D&D rules use the metric system.

So far
J.L.
Message no. 17
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:34:46 +0200
Johannes Lemken wrote:
> > As for D&D I think they opted to keep the system in US measurements
> > because of the flavor. There was no metric in medieval times (of
> > course, there was no US either, but since "Imperial measurements"
> > don't mean anything anymore since the Brits sold out to
> metric... ;) )
> > and as such talking about the range of my crossbow in meters just
> > wouldn't "feel" right.
> >
>
> But they only kept it for those who are not familiar with the
> metric system, because in Germany for example the D&D rules
> use the metric system.

Really? Hmm. So I suppose we could surmise that had Wizards owned SR, the US
version would be in US measurements?

Damn that FASA and FanPro ;)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:37:58 +0200
According to Steve Garrard, on Monday 07 June 2004 10:02 the word on the
street was...

> As for D&D I think they opted to keep the system in US measurements
> because of the flavor.

My guess is they used imperial for D&D because the game originates in the
US, and the majority of the RPG audience is there. Whereas FASA probably
went for metric for SR because that sounds, to Americans, as futuristic,
and so adds to the flavor of the game. Nearly every US book, TV show,
movie, etc. that tries to appear futuristic has its characters use the
metric system -- and often _just_ fails because it's a little too obvious
that the writers converted straight from imperial to metric. Lots of Star
Trek stuff has the characters use distances of, for example, 80,000 km,
which IMHO makes it clear that the writer originally went for 50,000 miles
and then took out a pocket calculator to find that 50,000 miles = 80,000
km...

> There was no metric in medieval times (of course,
> there was no US either, but since "Imperial measurements" don't mean
> anything anymore since the Brits sold out to metric... ;) ) and as such
> talking about the range of my crossbow in meters just wouldn't "feel"
> right.

IIRC, Das Schwarze Auge uses what is in essence the metric system, but with
a few different names to give it a more medieval feel.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:25:11 +0200
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:45:07 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> The trouble is that players tend to say stuff like "I'll approach to
> within
> about a hundred meters of the castle wall, and then I want to shoot the
> guard on top with my crossbow" -- leaving the GM work out whether the
> crossbow, which as ranges listed in feet, can shoot a hundred meters or
> not.

Yupp, players do stupid things like these. Fortunately, my players tend to
say "I try to get as close as possible without getting noticed, and kill
the guard." Otherwise, we use what is given in the rulebook (fortunately,
FanPro Germany did convert the ranges and stuff to SI measurements). And
everybody get's a short overview of what it is, rounded up or down as the
GM (me) knows, er, thinks is right.

> And it's a problem the other way around, too: if the GM says "The
> kobolds are about 50 feet away from you" (with the reasoning behind it
> that this way, the players will know if they are in range or not) it will
> lead to questions of "How much is that in real measurements?"

Yep, it happens. But rules-of-thump work good enough for RPGing. And of
course, it helps to explain the conversion, or work without exact
distances at all ("The kobolds are close, close enough to smell that they
didn't wash since the last time a dragon burned down Capitol Village in
your homelands").
Depends on the style of GM'ing you use, I suppose.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training
Message no. 20
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:29:14 +0200
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:37:58 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> IIRC, Das Schwarze Auge uses what is in essence the metric system, but
> with a few different names to give it a more medieval feel.

Yes and No. DSA uses old, German medival systems. Resulting in things like
1 Stein = 1000 grams (I will not convert that for any Americans nor
Brits). Hände "hands" and Spannen (circa the length of left hand tip to
right hand tip) and the like.
As a rule of thumb: If it's in DSA, it is not invented by FanPro, but
stolen, er, researched from (European) history.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training
Message no. 21
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:52:01 +0000
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:02:52AM +0200, Steve Garrard wrote:
> > I agree. The metric system is cleaner and it's not that hard
> > to think in, even for <frenchy>stupid americans</frenchy>
> > like me. If even you can't think in it most of the
> > convertions are pretty easy. km * 5/3 = mi. m *
>
> Actually I have to disagree. I grew up with the US measurement system and as
> such learned to think in it. I've since then moved to a metric country where
> I've been living for a dozen years, and to this day it simply isn't natural
> for me to think in metric. I know the system in and out and understand the
> math, but when I want to judge distance, for example, like how far between
> here and there, I can only think in feet or yards.
>

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I also grew up with the US measurement
system, never lived in any other country, and yet I'm quite comfortable with the metric
system. In a lot of ways I'm actually more comfortable with the metric system than the US
system (it just makes more sense, damn it!). Hell, my family has been known to make fun
of me for referring to things in day to day life using the metric system. It's probably
because I work in the sciences and absolutely everything we do is always metric. So maybe
what's required is actually working with the system instead of just passively reading
signs and what not.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 22
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:11:21 +0200
David Kettler wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:02:52AM +0200, Steve Garrard wrote:
> > > I agree. The metric system is cleaner and it's not that hard to
> > > think in, even for <frenchy>stupid americans</frenchy>
> like me. If
> > > even you can't think in it most of the convertions are
> pretty easy.
> > > km * 5/3 = mi. m *
> >
> > Actually I have to disagree. I grew up with the US
> measurement system
> > and as such learned to think in it. I've since then moved
> to a metric
> > country where I've been living for a dozen years, and to
> this day it
> > simply isn't natural for me to think in metric. I know the
> system in
> > and out and understand the math, but when I want to judge distance,
> > for example, like how far between here and there, I can
> only think in feet or yards.
> >
>
> Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I also grew up
> with the US measurement system, never lived in any other
> country, and yet I'm quite comfortable with the metric
> system. In a lot of ways I'm actually more comfortable with
> the metric system than the US system (it just makes more
> sense, damn it!). Hell, my family has been known to make fun
> of me for referring to things in day to day life using the
> metric system. It's probably because I work in the sciences
> and absolutely everything we do is always metric. So maybe
> what's required is actually working with the system instead
> of just passively reading signs and what not.

Perhaps. I do agree that the metric system makes far more sense, or rather,
is more logically arranged, compared to the archaic methods used to
initially determine how far a mile should be, or whatever.

But for me I just can't think in it. I'm certain that it helps you to be
working with metric in your job capacity, but for those of us who don't (I'm
a software engineer), reading signs and what not is all we do with it on a
daily basis.

Anyway, 'nuff said :)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 23
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:53:54 +0200
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Monday 07 June 2004 12:25 the word on
the street was...

> Yep, it happens. But rules-of-thump work good enough for RPGing.

The rule being "It's what I say it is or else I'll thump you"? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:47:21 -0300
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:53:54 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Monday 07 June 2004 12:25 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Yep, it happens. But rules-of-thump work good enough for RPGing.
>
> The rule being "It's what I say it is or else I'll thump you"? :)
>

Damn, that joke was mine...

Will
Message no. 25
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:38:16 +0200
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:53:54 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> The rule being "It's what I say it is or else I'll thump you"? :)

Depends. *g* In this case, I'm talking about conversion.
OTOH, I set the limits, who doesn't agree with me can leave. ASAP.

Most of the time, my players follow my, er, advice (for a lack of a better
euphemism), and playing is as smooth as possible.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training
Message no. 26
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:12:31 +0100
In message
<3C8C3C9EF6A3D411A2170090274E89D001630F95@*******.afa-systems.co.za>,
Steve Garrard <SteveG@***********.co.za> writes
>As for D&D I think they opted to keep the system in US measurements because
>of the flavor. There was no metric in medieval times (of course, there was
>no US either, but since "Imperial measurements" don't mean anything anymore
>since the Brits sold out to metric... ;) ) and as such talking about the
>range of my crossbow in meters just wouldn't "feel" right.

You think you've got it tough - try being British.

I'm in my late 20s and therefore have grown up in an entirely metric
society. Not.

We have stupid laws that make everything be sold in SI measurements - we
buy litres of petrol for instance and fruit and veg are sold in kilos -
however since so many people are more comfortable with imperial
measurements that's how many things are sold, but just converted back
for costing (People have gone to jail for selling things by the pound).
However you still buy your beer in pints... Milk bottles are still a
pint, but the larger plastic containers are either 1 or 2 litres.

Most people - schoolkids included - know their height in feet and inches
and their weight in stones and pounds - it's only in the past few months
since I started attending a gym that I've even known how much I weigh in
kilos (I input into the machines each time), but I'm still 5'10"...
However my son is 3 stone 7lbs in weight...

It gets even worse with travel - everything is measured in miles - my
daily commute is seven miles, which I drive at approximately 70mph for
most of the distance, however my car has a 40 litre tank but we still
measure fuel economy in miles-per-gallon even though you *can't* buy a
gallon a fuel (it's illegal) - I judge short distances in metres and
long distances in miles.

The end result is that I'm slightly happier using imperial measurements
that metric.

--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:53:21 +0200
Paul Squires wrote:
> You think you've got it tough - try being British.
>
> I'm in my late 20s and therefore have grown up in an entirely
> metric society. Not.
>
> We have stupid laws that make everything be sold in SI
> measurements - we buy litres of petrol for instance and fruit
> and veg are sold in kilos - however since so many people are
> more comfortable with imperial measurements that's how many
> things are sold, but just converted back for costing (People
> have gone to jail for selling things by the pound).
> However you still buy your beer in pints... Milk bottles are
> still a pint, but the larger plastic containers are either 1
> or 2 litres.
>
> Most people - schoolkids included - know their height in feet
> and inches and their weight in stones and pounds - it's only
> in the past few months since I started attending a gym that
> I've even known how much I weigh in kilos (I input into the
> machines each time), but I'm still 5'10"...
> However my son is 3 stone 7lbs in weight...
>
> It gets even worse with travel - everything is measured in
> miles - my daily commute is seven miles, which I drive at
> approximately 70mph for most of the distance, however my car
> has a 40 litre tank but we still measure fuel economy in
> miles-per-gallon even though you *can't* buy a gallon a fuel
> (it's illegal) - I judge short distances in metres and long
> distances in miles.
>
> The end result is that I'm slightly happier using imperial
> measurements that metric.

See what happens when you mess with things? Metric isn't always better kids!
:p

I guess this explains why the United States' attempt to convert to metric in
the late 70s (I think) wasn't very successful. People just didn't want to
know.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
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Message no. 28
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Grenades
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:05:49 +0200
According to Steve Garrard, on Monday 14 June 2004 13:53 the word on the
street was...

> I guess this explains why the United States' attempt to convert to
> metric in the late 70s (I think) wasn't very successful. People just
> didn't want to know.

It's really just fear of the unknown, IMHO. As Paul indicated, the UK's
current attempt to go metric is a half-hearted way of doing things, and so
I still have to see whether it will really succeed. Either do something
all the way, or don't do it at all, is my opinion. Unfortunately,
measurements are harder to force on people than, for example, money (to
use probably the biggest conversion in recent history as an example) --
after 2 1/2 years of paying in euros, I still run into people who convert
to guilders to know how much they "actually" spent, but not as many as a
year ago by a long shot.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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