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Message no. 1
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:17:01 +0000
>From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
>>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>>Sorry, what I meant was that I didn't think locks
>>would be much help in the situation I described
>>because while I don't doubt that you can (and have
>>to!) perform them quickly, you're then tied up keeping
>>the lock in effect, or the guy you just locked can
>>start fighting back once you drop the lock. Or is that
>>what you're saying - you can quickly perform a lock,
>>then use the lock to disable the victim (or at least
>>the limb you're locking) then release the lock and
>>move on?

<Snip my reply>
It is also quite possible to maintain a wrist-lock one handed leaving you
both feet and a free hand... more than enough for a competant martial
artist.
(plus you've got your forehead and your teeth)...
:-)

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Message no. 2
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:34:32 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>


According to Lone Eagle, on Thu, 10 Oct 2002 the word on the street
was...

> > stick your arm out horizontal with the palm of your hand facing
> > downwards.

|---*---*-

> > Now let your wrist sag keeping your hand straightish so that
> > your fingers are pointing downwards

|---*---*\

> > and rotate your arm on its axis from
> > your shoulder until your fingers are pointing upwards, you'll find
that
> > unless you're double jointed you're doubled over at the waist.

}~~~@~~~*/

> Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I can easily follow those
instructions
> without having to move my waist at all, whether I turn my arm
clockwise or
> counter-clockwise...

You probably aren't doing it right, although with me it does matter
which direction I turn my arm.

I stick my arm out, point my fingers down, and then rotate. If I
rotate my fingers forward and then up, I don't have to move my waist
at all, although I do end up stretching my shoulder more than it is
used it. If I rotate my fingers backward and then up, I can't get my
fingers pointed toward the ceiling without bending a bit -- but
almost, and I seem to be stretching my elbow more than my shoulder.
[I'm not sure which one of these is CCW and with one is CW... I think
it depends on which arm you are using...] Also, when I'm sitting down
[at the computer] I don't have to lean over any more, evidently the
seated position is "bent" enough for me.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 3
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
> According to Lone Eagle, on Thu, 10 Oct 2002 the
> word on the street was...

> > > stick your arm out horizontal with the palm of
> > > your hand facing downwards.

> |---*---*-

> > > Now let your wrist sag keeping your hand
> > > straightish so that your fingers are pointing
> > > downwards

> |---*---*\

> > > and rotate your arm on its axis from
> > > your shoulder until your fingers are pointing
> > > upwards, you'll find that unless you're double
> > > jointed you're doubled over at the waist.



> }~~~@~~~*/

> > Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I can easily
> follow those
> instructions
> > without having to move my waist at all, whether I
> turn my arm
> clockwise or
> > counter-clockwise...
>
> You probably aren't doing it right, although with me
> it does matter
> which direction I turn my arm.
>
> I stick my arm out, point my fingers down, and then
> rotate. If I
> rotate my fingers forward and then up, I don't have
> to move my waist
> at all, although I do end up stretching my shoulder
> more than it is
> used it. If I rotate my fingers backward and then
> up, I can't get my
> fingers pointed toward the ceiling without bending a
> bit -- but
> almost, and I seem to be stretching my elbow more
> than my shoulder.
> [I'm not sure which one of these is CCW and with one
> is CW... I think
> it depends on which arm you are using...] Also,
> when I'm sitting down
> [at the computer] I don't have to lean over any
> more, evidently the
> seated position is "bent" enough for me.

This is a classic ude gatame, or arm bar. Let me
clarify the instructions a little bit.

1. Hold right arm straight out in front of you, palm
down, fingers extended.

2. Relax your wrist until your fingers point at the
floor.

3. Rotate your hand counter-clockwise, assisting
gently with your other hand. Keep your wrist bent 90
degrees the whole time.

4. Your elbow will rotate until it points at the
ceiling. As it does, you will feel your shoulder
begin to lift. At some point, you will not be able to
twist your wrist any further without your torso
beginning to rotate. Pressure should be felt at both
the elbow and the shoulder.

5. When applied to an opponent, it is important to
keep their arm straight. This can be accomplished by
placing one hand on the point of their elbow, or by
pulling their hand toward you while applying the
rotation.

6. Done slowly, your opponent will be turned and
controlled. Done quickly, you can easily damage the
shoulder, elbow, and wrist joints. In practice, we
often put our uke (workout partner) flat on the mat,
face down, with this technique alone. Trust me when I
say that anyone who values their arm will not fight
this technique. Failing to comply with the direction
the executor of this technique want you to follow
results in immediate and intense pain.

Variation:

1. Extend your arm, palm up, fingers extended.

2. Point your fingers at the ceiling. There is that
90 degree bend in the wrist again.

3. Rotate your hand clockwise.

4. Almost immediately, your elbow will begin to raise
in a clockwise direction, putting pressure on your
shoulder.

5. This will turn your torso, twisting you to the
side.

6. This technique can easily tear your opponent's
shoulder apart. To ensure that they do not pull away
from you, pull on the base of their upturned hand,
while pressing their fingers toward them (usually with
your thumb). Whether they like it ornot, they will
soon be laying on their side.

Variation:

1. Hold out your right arm, palm down, fingers
extended.

2. Again drop your fingers, creating that 90 degree
bend in your wrist.

3. Maintaining that 90 degree bend, rotate your hand
counter-clockwise until your finger point to the
right. This should all be familiar.

4. Now bend your elbow, bringing the back of your
wrist/hand toward your chest. This will create a
second 90 degree angle at your elbow. You arm and
hand should now form a "lightning bolt" or "reverse z"
pattern asyou look down on it.

5. From here, gently try to turn your fingers toward
the ceiling in that counter-clockwise circle. Your
wrist will experience the most immediate pressure, but
your shoulder will begin to feel pressure as well. Be
gentle on yourself. This one can be painful if you
are rough.

6. When applied to an opponent, the trick is to
maintain the 90 degree bend in both the wrist and the
elbow. They will drop right down to the floor for
you, crouching conveniently in front of your knees and
feet. Done quickly, with full force, this will cause
them severe joint damage.

That is enough jujitsu for now.

======Korishinzo
--we finally found a topic I know really well ;D



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Message no. 4
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:06:17 +0100 (BST)
> This is a classic ude gatame, or arm bar. Let me
clarify the instructions a little bit.
<snipt!(TM) series of arm lock instructions>
> Korishinzo

Are similar locks to these taught in Aikido?

Oh, and all those nasty techniques you mentioned, Kori
- are they the kind of things you could pick up in any
martial art if your instructor was inclined to teach
them to you, or are some or all specific to ju-jitsu?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 5
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
--- Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> wrote:
> > This is a classic ude gatame, or arm bar. Let me
> clarify the instructions a little bit.
> <snipt!(TM) series of arm lock instructions>
> > Korishinzo

> Are similar locks to these taught in Aikido?

In every case, an aikidoka would be taught a gentler,
more persuasive form. There is the occasional sensei
who will teach atemi along with the basic aikido
techniques, but typically only to advanced students.
Aikido, from its inception, has always been about
doing the minimum amount of damage necessary to
control a situation. One should not assume that the
movie martial stunts of Steven Segal are
representative of aikido. He carries the atemi of his
technique to the extreme, and much of what he does is
performed slowly so the audience can actually see it.
A proficient practicioner of aikido can send you
flying across the room without apparently doing
anything except moving to one side slightly.

> Oh, and all those nasty techniques you mentioned,
> Kori
> - are they the kind of things you could pick up in
> any martial art if your instructor was inclined to
> teach them to you, or are some or all specific to
> ju-jitsu?

They are all variations of the ude gatame and ude
garame (arm bar and arm coil) techniques found in
ju-jitsu. Similar techniques can be found in Hapkido
and some styles of Kung Fu. They are also hidden in
the deceptively slow movements of Tai Chi. Some
styles of judo also teach arm bars, but these are more
street oriented, and have borrowed heavily from the
much older art of jujitsu. At its core, judo is
almost entirely an art of off-balancing your opponent
and tossing them about with their own momentum
supplying all the force for the technique.

As a side note:

Some people have weighed into this thread with
references to ninjutsu. You should bear in mind that
there is no more a single form of ninjutsu than there
is a single kung fu. Ninjutsu, from its founding, is
the art of improvisation and borrowing. There is not
one single technique in that art that any student of
that art can claim as original or unique to ninjutsu.
This is not a criticism. The art's greatest strength
is unpredictability and adaptability. Never, ever
assume that because that last ninjutsu practicioner
kicked you in the head, the next one will. She might
not kick at all. She might use jujitsu arm locks,
judo throws, tang su do kicks, shoto ryu block-punch
combinations, or just pick up a stick and hit you
reaklly hard. :)

The second most important attribute of any martial art
is surprise, so I am going to keep the rest of my
secrets for myself. ;)

======Korishinzo
--goes back to being quiet in the corner

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Message no. 6
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:53:41 +0000
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I can easily follow those instructions
>without having to move my waist at all, whether I turn my arm clockwise or
>counter-clockwise...

Your fingers should point behind you on the way round... Anti-clockwise if
you're doing it with your right arm, from your perspective.

If you aren't feeling any discomfort doing that I'm impressed (and I know
not to use a wrist lock like that on you if you ever attack me... :-) ) If
you do feel discomfort then remember that the person who's put the lock on
can continue to twist for about another 60 degrees before they have to shift
their grip or try something new.
Locks, joint manipulation and pressure application aren't exact sciences,
there are people on whom a particular move doesn't work, a guy in my class
could have his palm virtually touching his forearm and not have a problem at
all, put the slightest leglock on him however and you've got him. I'm
"immune" to the thumb lock I mentioned, so's my little brother, we just have
something odd about the way our thumbs work.

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Message no. 7
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:26:35 +0000
>From: Da Twink Daddy <datwinkdaddy@*******.com>
> > > stick your arm out horizontal with the palm of your hand facing
> > > downwards.
>
>|---*---*-
>
> > > Now let your wrist sag keeping your hand straightish so that
> > > your fingers are pointing downwards
>
>|---*---*\
>
> > > and rotate your arm on its axis from
> > > your shoulder until your fingers are pointing upwards, you'll find
>that
> > > unless you're double jointed you're doubled over at the waist.
>
>}~~~@~~~*/
>
> > Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I can easily follow those
>instructions
> > without having to move my waist at all, whether I turn my arm
>clockwise or
> > counter-clockwise...
>
>You probably aren't doing it right, although with me it does matter
>which direction I turn my arm.
>
>I stick my arm out, point my fingers down, and then rotate. If I
>rotate my fingers forward and then up, I don't have to move my waist
>at all, although I do end up stretching my shoulder more than it is
>used it. If I rotate my fingers backward and then up, I can't get my
>fingers pointed toward the ceiling without bending a bit -- but
>almost, and I seem to be stretching my elbow more than my shoulder.
>[I'm not sure which one of these is CCW and with one is CW... I think
>it depends on which arm you are using...] Also, when I'm sitting down
>[at the computer] I don't have to lean over any more, evidently the
>seated position is "bent" enough for me.

It's the backward one you want.
Remember that someone doing it to you has the ability to rotate further, and
with a wrist lock on your radius and ulna are under more pressure and have
less free movement.

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Message no. 8
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:19:24 +0200
According to Da Twink Daddy, on Thu, 10 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> You probably aren't doing it right, although with me it does matter
> which direction I turn my arm.

Lone Eagle, do you have a digital camera so you can show us what we're
supposed to do in this "exercise"? ;)

> [I'm not sure which one of these is CCW and with one is CW... I think
> it depends on which arm you are using...]

I meant when looking along your arm, from your shoulder.

> Also, when I'm sitting down
> [at the computer] I don't have to lean over any more, evidently the
> seated position is "bent" enough for me.

Doesn't make a difference to me, though, and neither does which arm I use.

--
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Message no. 9
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:21:47 +0200
According to Ice Heart, on Thu, 10 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> 1. Hold right arm straight out in front of you, palm
> down, fingers extended.

Ah, I thought LE meant hold it straight out to the side. *tries it this
way* Nope, I can still turn it about as far in either direction :)

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Message no. 10
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:33:05 +0200
According to Lone Eagle, on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> Your fingers should point behind you on the way round... Anti-clockwise
> if you're doing it with your right arm, from your perspective.

With my arm sticking out to the side? *tries it again* Yeah, it must be,
because when my arm is sticking straight out behind me, my hand can turn a
lot further than straight up.

> If you aren't feeling any discomfort doing that I'm impressed

Without using my other hand to "help" I can actually get my fingers to
point to almost 11 o'clock like this, but it's straining the muscles right
above my elbow.

> If you do feel discomfort then remember that the person who's put the
> lock on can continue to twist for about another 60 degrees before they
> have to shift their grip or try something new.

Reason enough not to let someone grab hold of you like that, I'd say...

--
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-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 11
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:09:53 +0000
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dmhyde@***.net>
> > Just got one question - you said that Aikido is always
> > the best style for women to learn. Why is that?
>
>I'd agree with that based upon my minimal knowledge of the art simply
>because it's not "action" based but "reaction" based, purely
defensive
>yet extremely potent

In my experience it doesn't matter which martial art you choose to learn, if
you learn and progress you will look back and think that you chose the right
one for you.
Women don't need to do Aikido; the women in my Ju-Jitsu class get as much
out of it as the men, the women in my brother's TKD club are just as nasty
with their kicks...etc.

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Message no. 12
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:25:49 +0000
>From: Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com>
>Think again peoples. :)
>
>Women are good at any art they want to be, and
>especially dangerous in an art favoring strong, low
>kicks.

Now you're just being silly, everyone knows that women kick like girls. :-)

You know, straight leg, kicking from the hip...
;-)

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Message no. 13
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:25:18 -0500
> --- Valeu John EMFA <ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil>
<snip>

Funny,

I started SR when I was in the Navy too... Pearl Harbor was kind of boring
if you were poor!

Lunatec
Message no. 14
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:56:01 +1000 (EST)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote: > ---

> As a side note:
>
> Some people have weighed into this thread with
> references to ninjutsu. You should bear in mind
> that
> there is no more a single form of ninjutsu than
> there
> is a single kung fu. Ninjutsu, from its founding,
> is
> the art of improvisation and borrowing. There is
> not
> one single technique in that art that any student of
> that art can claim as original or unique to
> ninjutsu.
> This is not a criticism. The art's greatest
> strength
> is unpredictability and adaptability. Never, ever
> assume that because that last ninjutsu practicioner
> kicked you in the head, the next one will. She
> might
> not kick at all. She might use jujitsu arm locks,
> judo throws, tang su do kicks, shoto ryu block-punch
> combinations, or just pick up a stick and hit you
> reaklly hard. :)

IIRC I stated all this very clearly in 1 of my posts
very early on, thankyou for clarifying this though,
your explanation has less of an anti-ninjitsu sediment
than mine so I think people will take note more. IIRC
I seem to be the only other who has posted on
ninjitsu(being a passed student of a very harsh
instructor, a very bad one, that's why the
anti-ninjitsu seediment) unless I wasn't observing
very closely (I get the hint Korishinzo that you may
or may not be a practioner ;)

BTW when using a stick as a tool in jojitsu, we strike
with extreme prejudice, aiming to kill & or at least
maim with a jo (It's amazing the amount of cubic
pressure per square inch you can generate by striking
with the very tip of a jo. Smaller area of impact
striking the skull full force tends to cause fractures
& or excess fluid/ pooling as It punches thru a plate
of bone in cranium).Majority of time we aim for weak
points ,crown or temple. Your skull may be the
hardest/strongest bone in the body, but the suter
points tend to weaken It, like seams in a jigsaw
puzzle, weakest link of a significant whole. Even when
your over 21 (considered an adult as your suter points
in cranium finally sealed/knit fully) these suter
points are still weak, stress points(plates of cranium
to make up entire skull) of a whole instead of 1
complete, solid structure.

Have I mentioned already that variouse practioners of
ninjitsu are extremely deadly with weapons of various
designe ;)

The word ninjitsu was formulated from other words such
as "shinobie...." tracing all the way back to a
chinese word & prununciation describing the trade of
spying. Ninjitsu's roots as I have described in
earlier posts, roots lie deeply within china's.

(GZ)

>
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Message no. 15
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:40:09 +1000 (EST)
I clearly made a mistake with assuming you may or may
not be a practioner of ninjitsu (not even a proper
name really as It is used when describing unarmed
aspect of the martial art). Notice & take note though
that all the jitsu(aspects) are culminated into a the
complete artform of ninjitsu, one of It's aspects
being jujitsu, & another e.g. kenjitsu art of the
sword - ninja to ( to meaning tool or weapon IIRC).

(GZ)



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Message no. 16
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
[SNIP]
> (I get the hint Korishinzo that you may or may not
> be a practioner ;)

*blinks* That narrows things down nicely...I will
freely admit that I either do, or do not, practice any
known martial art, and a few that are completely
unknown. I may, or may not, have been to Mars
recently. I may or may not be a female Japanese elven
decker IRL. Are you asking me what martial arts
background I have? When it comes the practice of
ninjutsu, in either its original form or any of the
modern bastardizations which are primarily a sin of
the Western world, my experience is entirely
intellectual. I have never attended a dojo where
anyone claimed to teach that art.

> BTW when using a stick as a tool in jojitsu, we
> strike
> with extreme prejudice, aiming to kill & or at least
> maim with a jo (It's amazing the amount of cubic
> pressure per square inch you can generate by
> striking
> with the very tip of a jo. Smaller area of impact
> striking the skull full force tends to cause
> fractures
> & or excess fluid/ pooling as It punches thru a
> plate
> of bone in cranium).Majority of time we aim for weak
> points ,crown or temple. Your skull may be the
> hardest/strongest bone in the body, but the suter
> points tend to weaken It, like seams in a jigsaw
> puzzle, weakest link of a significant whole. Even
> when
> your over 21 (considered an adult as your suter
> points
> in cranium finally sealed/knit fully) these suter
> points are still weak, stress points(plates of
> cranium to make up entire skull) of a whole instead
> of 1 complete, solid structure.
>
> Have I mentioned already that variouse practioners
> of ninjitsu are extremely deadly with weapons of
> various designe ;)

The practice of ANY art that trains in the proper use
of a weapon makes one extremely deadly with that
weapon. Deadly force is not restricted to ninjutsu.
The striking end of pair of nunchaku, impacting the
skull in a properly executed attack will do more
damage than a jo wielder could ever dream of
inflicting. A trained kenjutsu student armed with a
katana can simply seperate the head from the body, and
thereby avoid tangling with the skull altogether. And
nothing bypasses that irritating bone mass on
someone's shoulders with the frightening efficiency of
a chunk of lead traveling at 300+ mps.

> The word ninjitsu was formulated from other words
> such as "shinobie...." tracing all the way back to a
> chinese word & prununciation describing the trade of
> spying. Ninjitsu's roots as I have described in
> earlier posts, roots lie deeply within china's.

How much of Japan's martial or linguistic history
draws from China's is not really the discussion here.
The word ninjutsu is very much Japanese. As is
shinobi, which pertains to all things stealthy. As is
nin po, the encompassing term for the various aspects
of a ninja's training and activities (of which
ninjutsu is only a part).

My original assertion that ninjutsu is an art borrowed
from many others, and is by no means a single,
cohesive style, still stands.

======Korishinzo
--I am a Geek, code or no code.

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Message no. 17
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:30:07 -0700 (PDT)
--- Robert Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au> wrote:

> I clearly made a mistake with assuming you may or
> may not be a practioner of ninjitsu (not even a
> proper name really as It is used when describing
> unarmed aspect of the martial art). Notice & take
> note though that all the jitsu(aspects) are
> culminated into a the complete artform of ninjitsu,
> one of It's aspects being jujitsu, & another e.g.
> kenjitsu art of the sword - ninja to ( to meaning
> tool or weapon IIRC).

*blinks twice* First you suggest that I may or may
not practice ninjutsu. Now you say that you may have
been wrong. How? Your original statement, in all
it's ambiguity, can not possibly by incorrect.

You are illustrating my point quite nicely. All the
martial aspects of ninjutsu can be found in other,
older martial traditions. Hence, the assertion that
ninjutsu borrows its techniques from others, applying
them as needed for the situation, stands firm.

Ah, yes, the "ninja to". Victim of the overly
romantic assumption in the West that the original
ninja of feudal Japan had time to forge their own
style of blade with striking similarities to the
katana, but subtle differences. Take a katana (if you
can find one that is accurate to the feudl design) and
lay it beside a ninja to (again, provided you can
actually find an accurate replica). You will see that
the "ninja to" is shorter and, in fact, comprises part
of a katana. In fact, if you took a katana and
snapped a bit of the blade off, and then ground the
new end to a sharpened angle, you would have a ninja
to. Surprise, surprise. What better source of ready
made killing tools than a recent battle field, with
the bodies still cooling and recently discarded
weapons lying everywhere? Nin po is not just the art
of borrowing techniques and weapons. It is the art of
pragmatism. No two ninja to would be any more like
then two ninja from different parts if Japan.

I am not sure where this thread is going. Rand was
looking for what we all knew about various martial art
styles, as to desireable attributes for their practice
and "dirtiest" techniques. Within that context, I'd
say we are pretty well OT. Shall we let this thread
die a quiet death? After all, I am not a ninjutsu
student, and you maintain that your experience with
the art has been nothing but negative. As such, we
should shortly run out of anything to say about it.

======Korishinzo
--May or may not be using sarcasm

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Message no. 18
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:48:30 +0100
At 08:40 PM 17/10/2002 +1000, GZ wrote:
>
>I clearly made a mistake with assuming you may or may
>not be a practioner of ninjitsu (not even a proper
>name really as It is used when describing unarmed
>aspect of the martial art). Notice & take note though
>that all the jitsu(aspects) are culminated into a the
>complete artform of ninjitsu, one of It's aspects
>being jujitsu, & another e.g. kenjitsu art of the
>sword - ninja to ( to meaning tool or weapon IIRC).

It's my understanding that ninjitsu is actually a "style" in itself, albeit
a style with very little actual offensive ability... I was given to
understand that it was actually best described as "the art of being a
sneaky git" and that practitioners of old style ninjitsu learned other
"styles" if they wanted a selection of offensive options. Certainly my
knowledge of ju-jitsu says that it isn't an "aspect" of ninjitsu. Modern or
American Ninjitsu is a much more rounded art with much more emphasis on the
combat side. However since it disappeared as a living art its reconstructed
forms have been many and varied, most of them claiming to be the original
ninjitsu or the best reconstruction of the original.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

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Message no. 19
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:30:14 +1000 (EST)
When I find or remember the original source, I'll post
the original chinese word describing the "spy"
"Infiltrator" "stealer In" or just plain ol' bloody
ninja that the japanese took (as a practice &
originally china's own artform of high level
conspiracy & shadowplay) as you've noted shinobi as
japanese, well I know It go's further back than even
shinobi & even a similiar chinese word (In spelling &
pronunciation). I'll try my hardest to find It again,
I make no guarantee though (I could always use my
training & put It all down to dis-information ;)
bugger you all to hell, none of you would be the
wiser, but I know I know, so I'll try my damndest to
find out for yeh's (even with reference so you can't
invalidate my information. (GZ)

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Message no. 20
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:26:45 +1000 (EST)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote: > ---
Robert Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au> wrote:
>
> > I clearly made a mistake with assuming you may or
> > may not be a practioner of ninjitsu (not even a
>
> > proper name really as It is used when describing
>
> > unarmed aspect of the martial art). Notice & take
>
> > note though that all the jitsu(aspects) are
>
> > culminated into a the complete artform of
> ninjitsu,
> > one of It's aspects being jujitsu, & another e.g.
>
> > kenjitsu art of the sword - ninja to ( to meaning
>
> > tool or weapon IIRC).
>
> *blinks twice* First you suggest that I may or may
> not practice ninjutsu. Now you say that you may
> have
> been wrong. How? Your original statement, in all
> it's ambiguity, can not possibly by incorrect.

Well I obviously fragged up didn't I, several
times,maybe not In statement but I know I was
(personaly) wrong

>
> You are illustrating my point quite nicely. All the
> martial aspects of ninjutsu can be found in other,
> older martial traditions. Hence, the assertion that
> ninjutsu borrows its techniques from others,
> applying
> them as needed for the situation, stands firm.
>

I also originally made the same point, I'm pretty damn
sure I did.

> Ah, yes, the "ninja to". Victim of the overly
> romantic assumption in the West that the original
> ninja of feudal Japan had time to forge their own
> style of blade with striking similarities to the
> katana, but subtle differences. Take a katana (if
> you
> can find one that is accurate to the feudl design)
> and
> lay it beside a ninja to (again, provided you can
> actually find an accurate replica). You will see
> that
> the "ninja to" is shorter and, in fact, comprises
> part
> of a katana. In fact, if you took a katana and
> snapped a bit of the blade off, and then ground the
> new end to a sharpened angle, you would have a ninja
> to. Surprise, surprise. What better source of
> ready
> made killing tools than a recent battle field, with
> the bodies still cooling and recently discarded
> weapons lying everywhere? Nin po is not just the
> art
> of borrowing techniques and weapons. It is the art
> of
> pragmatism. No two ninja to would be any more like
> then two ninja from different parts if Japan.
>

Thankyou for going more in depth, the familialrity
jogged my memory. My instructor has an original I've
seen with my own eyes,bought as an antique from a
clueless person, blood rust stains the blade
permanently, completely in -servicable, only kept as
display & not in use. I think you'll find though
blades were still forged, a bladesmith was always
deeply respected for his work (highly) & was always
welcomed or recruited into a family/clan. Purpose was
repair, & making blades such as katana etc. so as
ninja could still infiltrate society passing off as
samurai say for particular mission. I also recall that
ospicouse blades including katana aswell as ninja to
were forged for particular family groups &
individuals. Yes signature weapons, not always hand-me
downs from a battle feild.

> I am not sure where this thread is going. Rand was
> looking for what we all knew about various martial
> art
> styles, as to desireable attributes for their
> practice
> and "dirtiest" techniques. Within that context, I'd
> say we are pretty well OT. Shall we let this thread
> die a quiet death?

Yes seeing as Its off topic, we could start a new
thread but so far I've only really noted your response
to the particular discussion & I feel you thourghly
wish to end It. Let It return to the shadows from
whenst It belongs, lest we remember It with same
contempt.

> After all, I am not a ninjutsu
> student, and you maintain that your experience with
> the art has been nothing but negative. As such, we
> should shortly run out of anything to say about it.
>
> ======> Korishinzo
> --May or may not be using sarcasm

I should not have described my experience so
negatively, as I've learnt much that will never leave.
I apologise for this post & a previous as I have
accumulated & read my mail at a later date then when
first posted. Apologies (GZ)

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