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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Fri Feb 8 14:50:01 2002
Just a quick question, would you think that it'd be illegal for me to
scan and print the price tables in the back of the books as one big
thing and have it for gaming sessions when people need to look up the
price of something or they want to go shopping so that they don't have
to constantly wait on each other to get done with the ONE copy of each
book that's in the group?

(like I say...it's not for sale it's just for personal use)

Derek
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Claus Thomsen)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Fri Feb 8 15:10:00 2002
From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
> Just a quick question, would you think that it'd be illegal for me
to
> scan and print the price tables in the back of the books as one big
> thing and have it for gaming sessions when people need to look up
the
> price of something or they want to go shopping so that they don't
have
> to constantly wait on each other to get done with the ONE copy of
each
> book that's in the group?
>
> (like I say...it's not for sale it's just for personal use)
>
> Derek
>

There's no easy answer to that question;). You might want to read the
Shadowrun + Kazaa thread from Dumpshock.com:
http://forums.dumpshock.com//Forum21/HTML/001107.html

\cth
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Fri Feb 8 15:35:18 2002
At 2/8/02 01:45 PM, you wrote:
>Just a quick question, would you think that it'd be illegal for me to
>scan and print the price tables in the back of the books as one big
>thing and have it for gaming sessions when people need to look up the
>price of something or they want to go shopping so that they don't have
>to constantly wait on each other to get done with the ONE copy of each
>book that's in the group?

Personally I think it'd be alright and well within the bounds of fair use.
If you only provide the tables to people in your group (i.e. don't leave a
big stack at the local game shop) and you own all the books in question
which will also be present at the session I'd say it seems legit. In
essence the NSRCG does about the same thing and hasn't been slapped with a
suit as of yet so I'd say that even in a wider-use situation there is a
slight precedent for this type of activity. Doesn't mean it's officially
condoned however.

Belgand


-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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K++ w---() O- M-- !V PS+@ PE++(+++)@ Y+@ PGP- t+ 5 X++@ R++ tv++ b+++
DI++++ D+++ G++ e>++++$ h(!) r++ y+**
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jed Mitten)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Fri Feb 8 15:40:08 2002
There's also _gotta_ be a something in the copywrite description on one of
the first few pages. I don't have my book with me, but it should have
something like the FBI warning at the beginning of a video. That will at
least tell you _if_ it's illegal.

And we all know that noone would ever copy a video, cd, dvd, image, ad
infinitum...

Jed

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sat Feb 9 07:10:36 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Fri, 08 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Just a quick question, would you think that it'd be illegal for me to
> scan and print the price tables in the back of the books as one big
> thing and have it for gaming sessions when people need to look up the
> price of something or they want to go shopping so that they don't have
> to constantly wait on each other to get done with the ONE copy of each
> book that's in the group?

If it's for personal use, I think you can make those copies. (And even if
it's not legal, who's going to know that you made some copies for your own
use?)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Stuart M. Willis)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sat Feb 9 20:50:01 2002
Derek doth speweth:

>Just a quick question, would you think that it'd be illegal for me
>to scan and print the price tables in the back of the books as one
>big thing and have it for gaming sessions when people need to look
>up the ,price of something or they want to go shopping so that they
>don't have to constantly wait on each other to get done with the ONE
>copy of each book that's in the group? (like I say...it's not for
>sale it's just for personal use)

It'd be governed by fair use.

Claus doth speweth:

>There's no easy answer to that question;). You might want to read the
>Shadowrun + Kazaa thread from Dumpshock.com:
> http://forums.dumpshock.com//Forum21/HTML/001107.html

I found the forum discussion interesting, but reasonably one sided...

I didn't see anyone discuss the issue of piracy w/r/t second-hand
on-selling or renting/lending/borrowing. :)

I feel like being a stirrer, so I'll bring it up ;P

What is main reason for copyright? I'd say economics more than
ethics. People should be able to exploit their own creations without
others 'ripping off' their work. To do otherwise would discourage R&D
:) There is an ethical aspect to it - but that is partially because
of the interaction of modern ethics with capitalist principles :)

Keeping that in mind...

Which is more wrong from an ethical/moral (not legal) perspective...?

1.

a) Distributing free of charge a scanned OOP book as a PDF.

OR

b) selling it for twice the price that FASA sold it for and keeping
the money yourself. (So the original creators receive no additional
benefit from their creation)

2.

a) Distributing as a pdf, free of charge, an in print book you purchased.

OR

b) buying the same book and then renting it out to others at $5 a
pop, keeping the money yourself. (So the original creators receive
no additional benefit from their creation)

If you answered (b) ask yourself why you see it as less wrong... is
it because it involved the exploitation of property you acquired -
you were proving your business savvy in a market economy? :) If so,
this goes to prove my point about the relationship of capitalism with
the creation of social ethics :) Is it because you are only using the
one original copy?

If you answered (a) ask yourself why you see it as less wrong.. is it
because you are NOT receiving money in exchange for distribution?
This also proves my point about the relationship of capitalism with
the creation of social ethics... just in a contrary manner :) Is it
because you were 'freeing the information?'

In terms of you being able to exploit property you purchase - when it
comes to things like software, you aren't considered owner of the
software... you are considered to own a license to USE the software.
That licence you can transfer (either through giving or through
selling) to someone else - but not the software itself. Ergo why you
aren't allowed to make copies unless specifically provided by the
EULA.

Its an interesting kettle of fish, cause over here (in .au) there was
some controversy over sell-through vs. rental DVDs. Columbia wanted
to introduce a two-tiered pricing policy for their DVDs - the same
which operates for videos. Video stores would pay more for a DVD that
they are allowed to rent - like $100AU or so - to reflect the income
that Columbia would lose and the store would gain. Consumers, if they
wanted to buy the DVD, would buy a normal sell-through version at
$30AU. The video stores protested to the consumer-watch-dog peeps and
won. I believe their argument was that those who wanted to buy the
DVD would anyway, regardless of whether it was available for rental,
so Columbia wasn't losing any potential income.

I'm sure I've heard that argument before - and I've used it myself. :)

Curiously, tho, CD rental places are now banned in Australia. The
record industries argued that people could pirate CDs easily and
therefore they were losing income. Which was probably true :) But
what about public book libraries? And the fact that I can easily rip
DIVXs of DVDs?

Copyright is nice and fun and complicated :)

And i figure with extraterritoratility [sp?] its much worse in the SR
world.. "Oh, its completely fine to pirate anything but our products
on our territory". Does anyone know how CR actually works in SR?

S.


--
---
know yourself and you know your enemy.

dangermedia assassin: http://www.dangermedia.org
associate director, dump huck industries: http://www.dumphuck.com
jinn: http://vista.theresistance.net/jinn/

www.biki.net

ICQ: 4340513
---
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 01:50:23 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart M. Willis" <biki@****.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Legality Question


: Derek doth speweth:
:
: >Just a quick question, :
: It'd be governed by fair use.
:
: Claus doth speweth:
:
: :
: I found the forum discussion interesting, but reasonably one sided...
:
: I didn't see anyone discuss the issue of piracy w/r/t second-hand
: on-selling or renting/lending/borrowing. :)
:
{After heavy snipping}

Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's out
of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.
Certain SR I and II scenario books come to mind...

--Anders
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 02:05:22 2002
At 23:58 09/02/2002, Anders wrote:

>Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's out
>of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.

Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material was
coming out?

Adam
Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 04:25:00 2002
On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Adam Jury wrote:
> At 23:58 09/02/2002, Anders wrote:
> >Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's out
> >of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.
> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material was
> coming out?

I think yes.

I would buy that one immediately.

(Ever tried to find Tir Tairngire somewhere? My solution was to buy Die
Länder der Verheißung, although I had Tir NaNog already...)

--
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@***.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 07:15:01 2002
According to Adam Jury, on Sun, 10 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material
> was coming out?

Is this a hint? :)

Anyway, I'm not sure; I have a feeling most SR die-hards (those of us who
buy any book with an SR logo on it :) would buy it, but that they'd then be
immediately asked for copies by those other members of their group who only
buy the books that interest them. I wouldn't be surprised to find it up for
download soon after release, too. In the end, I guess it depends on the
price of the CD more than on anything else.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 10:20:01 2002
On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Adam Jury wrote:

> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material was
> coming out?
>
> Adam
> Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com

I fear, given human nature, no, but Gurth has already mentioned that.
I would buy it, however, so you have at least two confirmed sales :-)
what it *would* do however, is funnel additional revenue fanpro/wizkids
way. lots of people would be willing tp pay for it, especially if it was
reasonably priced, IMHO, and any money made would be pure profit (ok apart
from the what, 70pence (I suspect blank CDR's are even cheaper in the US,
too) for the bland CD..
while I'm talking about this, I dont know how many people on this list
also read the dumpshock forums, but Adam posted there that things would go
quicker and easier for this project if he had a Macintosh, since a lot of
the old stuff is in the format etc. I proposed on the board that
interested people should mail adam 1$ via paypal. since I reckon theres
probably at least 500 shadowrun fans on the internet, this would enable
him to buy an iMac, and hence, problem solved, we all get the eBooks we
would like (and by we, I mean, me!) quicker and salve any consience
related pangs for downloading copes of OOP sourcebooks off the net. even
if they are ones for books we already own...and I'm not admitting
anything...wait...whats that noise....its the FanPro Copyright police!
arrgghh! no! Bull, put down the axe! arrgh!

ahem.

copyright police aside, how many people would be interested in the "give
money to adam" project. it went down like a lead balloon on the forum..
even adam didnt reply..:-)

--
john@*****.net http://www.kript.net/shadowrun
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
SRGC SR1+ SR3++ !SR2 h b++ B--- UB IE+ RN+ !W ma+++ gm M-- P-
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 10:25:01 2002
On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 Jconstable@*****.com wrote:

> from the what, 70pence (I suspect blank CDR's are even cheaper in the US,
> too) for the bland CD..

gak! I meant blank! Oh what would Freud make of that..:-)

--
john@*****.net http://www.kript.net/shadowrun
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
SRGC SR1+ SR3++ !SR2 h b++ B--- UB IE+ RN+ !W ma+++ gm M-- P-
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 11:55:01 2002
At 05:20 10/02/2002, Gurth wrote:

>> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material
>> was coming out?
>
>Is this a hint? :)

No. I mean, I think it's well known enough that FanPro is considering such
ventures, but there's been no sort of final decision on anything made, as
far as I know - I'm not the first guy to hear about things, though.

>Anyway, I'm not sure; I have a feeling most SR die-hards (those of us who
>buy any book with an SR logo on it :) would buy it, but that they'd then be
>immediately asked for copies by those other members of their group who only
>buy the books that interest them. I wouldn't be surprised to find it up for
>download soon after release, too. In the end, I guess it depends on the
>price of the CD more than on anything else.

That's basically what I think, too. I don't personally think that something
priced like the Vampire CD at $50-70 will move all that well, but I don't
know how cheaply it could be done and still be profitable.

At 08:22 10/02/2002, Jconstable@*****.com wrote:

>way. lots of people would be willing tp pay for it, especially if it was
>reasonably priced, IMHO, and any money made would be pure profit (ok apart
>from the what, 70pence (I suspect blank CDR's are even cheaper in the US,
>too) for the bland CD..

Plus packaging, printing, and all that sort of stuff; I suspect that it
would work out to a couple of bucks american, per unit, but I haven't
researched this sort of thing extensively in a long time.

Plus development costs and suchlike.

>copyright police aside, how many people would be interested in the "give
>money to adam" project. it went down like a lead balloon on the forum..
>even adam didnt reply..:-)

Yeah. I have a real hard time thinking about anyone directly giving me
money when I'm not directly giving anything to them, and as there's no
guarantee that this project will go ahead anyway - and even if it does, no
guarantee that I'll be involved - I thank you for the gesture, but I have
to turn down any such attempts at this time. [And as I don't have a paypal
account, that's not too tough :) ]

Best,
Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 13:40:07 2002
According to Adam Jury, on Sun, 10 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> >Is this a hint? :)
>
> No. I mean, I think it's well known enough that FanPro is considering
> such ventures, but there's been no sort of final decision on anything
> made, as far as I know - I'm not the first guy to hear about things,
> though.

Speaking only for myself now, I think it's well-known enough that plans of
this nature have been kicked round from time to time. What I was wondering
was if any more concrete steps were taken recently, but from your reply, I
take it that that's not the case.

> >In the end, I guess it depends on the price of the CD more than on
> >anything else.
>
> That's basically what I think, too. I don't personally think that
> something priced like the Vampire CD at $50-70 will move all that well,
> but I don't know how cheaply it could be done and still be profitable.

Having seen the Vampire CD, I think this is a good item to learn from --
how not to do it, that is. The thing is over-complicated, over-elaborate,
and rather user-unfriendly as a result. The books are difficult to access,
even harder to print (which I suppose is intentional, but when you do print
stuff out, the on-screen pages are longer than will fit on the printer's
pages), and the character generator is in need of a serious overhaul of
both its engine and UI. I won't even even mention the map maker... The
price is simply ridiculous, and the person I know who owns it is lucky to
have bought it at a major discount :)

IMHO, Shadowrun books on CD-ROM should be PDFs of the original pages (but
not JPEG scans, as the Earthdawn character sheet on FASA's ED CD was), as
that's probably easiest all-around for both on-screen viewing and printing.
But we've been over that before, and I think everyone already knows this :)
The price is the issue here, and I think that if you want to persuade
people to buy instead of copy it, the only way to do it is to try and break
even instead of aim for a profit.

> Plus packaging, printing, and all that sort of stuff; I suspect that it
> would work out to a couple of bucks american, per unit, but I haven't
> researched this sort of thing extensively in a long time.

A blank CD-R plus packaging isn't the same as a factory-produced CD-ROM,
though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 16:30:01 2002
> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material
was
> coming out?

For the most part, if the thing was going to be priced decently (unlike
TSR's Forgotten Realms Atlas program was at $60), I personally think
that they should reprint them all, with the book as a PDF on a CD with
the book (like the 3rd edition D&D PHB came with for the character
generator) and then also (for those of us that have the books) set it up
on the website so that they can sell the PDF's online but not so they
can be downloaded....you place your order and then they put it on a CD
for you and send it to you....you could pay $X for your entire
collection on one CD or however many it'd take due to the size of your
collection and then for the GM it'd be glorious cause they could just
bring a laptop to the game and then have all of their books. Otherwise
they could do like they did with the steven king book that was released
online, put in a piece of coding so that you HAVE to have a specific
program to open it that has the coding on it and then charge like $15 or
20 for the program to read them and then like $5 a book and then they'd
be making money because you'd have to get the program to read them so
even if idiots were sharing them online then you'd still be getting
yours out of the program sales.
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 16:45:01 2002
> > That's basically what I think, too. I don't personally think that
> > something priced like the Vampire CD at $50-70 will move all that
well,
> > but I don't know how cheaply it could be done and still be
profitable.
>
> Having seen the Vampire CD, I think this is a good item to learn from
--
> how not to do it, that is. The thing is over-complicated,
over-elaborate,
> and rather user-unfriendly as a result. The books are difficult to
access,
> even harder to print (which I suppose is intentional, but when you do
> print
> stuff out, the on-screen pages are longer than will fit on the
printer's
> pages), and the character generator is in need of a serious overhaul
of
> both its engine and UI. I won't even even mention the map maker... The
> price is simply ridiculous, and the person I know who owns it is lucky
to
> have bought it at a major discount :)

Personally I would say that the best way they could do it would to be to
create something akin to the AD&D 2nd Ed. Core Rules 2.0 CD Rom
was...$25-$30 for the basic books, an official character generator, and
all of the goodie programs that the DM's could really use and the books
came in RTF, Help, and HTML formats, while I do agree wholeheartedly
that they need to add in the PDF format as well, this would sell like
crazy and then they could do the expansion discs for an additional $20
(again like TSR did with the D&D Core Rules 2.0 Expansion) with the
books for each area around the world or whatever....break it down by
continent, break it down by racial nations, break it down however they
want but as long as they were to give us 2 or 3 books added in and the
options that the books brought to the game added into the DM's program
then it'd be awesome and they would sell like mad too. Especially if
they actually had the Software shipped to main stream software stores
instead of just certain role playing stores. The other HUGE issue that
I've run into with getting books that FanPro is still printing is that
they never sent out a "catalog" through the distributors that do carry
their stuff so all of the stores I've gone to looked at me like I'd
grown a 2nd head when I asked if they could order something..."what? us
order something we've got no book code or numbers or price for? You've
smoked good crack and must be holding out on us" I'm sure if they were
to go at it a little more aggressively like the other RPG manufacturers
do and have they'd pick up a LOT more sales and then wouldn't be
treading on thin ice as someone said they do on the forum when this
whole topic was brought up.
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 18:45:00 2002
Adam Jury wrote:

>At 23:58 09/02/2002, Anders wrote:
>
> >Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's out
> >of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.
>
>Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material was
>coming out?
>
>Adam
>Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com
>
>

If such an item were to be published I wouldn't bother seeking out online copies of older
books. Personally, I like d FASA enough to drop money for products even if I didn't need
them and the same goes for FanPro. Besides all my third edition stuff barely fits in one
milk crate so a CD would allow me to shelve my second edition stuff and stop using 2 milk
crates.

-George Waksman
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 18:50:02 2002
Gurth wrote:

>According to Adam Jury, on Sun, 10 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...
>
>> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material
>> was coming out?
>
>Is this a hint? :)
>
>Anyway, I'm not sure; I have a feeling most SR die-hards (those of us who>
>buy any book with an SR logo on it :) would buy it, but that they'd then >be
>immediately asked for copies by those other members of their group who on>ly
>buy the books that interest them. I wouldn't be surprised to find it up f>or
>download soon after release, too. In the end, I guess it depends on the
>price of the CD more than on anything else.
>

Gurth makes a very good point, $10-$20 US and I'd buy it that day if possible, $20-$40 and
I'd wait a little bit, $40+ and I'd have to wait a little bit first.

-George Waksman
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 19:30:01 2002
On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Derek Hyde wrote:

> > Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material
> was
> > coming out?
>
> For the most part, if the thing was going to be priced decently (unlike
> TSR's Forgotten Realms Atlas program was at $60), I personally think
> that they should reprint them all, with the book as a PDF on a CD with
> the book (like the 3rd edition D&D PHB came with for the character
> generator) and then also (for those of us that have the books) set it up

I'd say $18-24 would be the most you could resonably charge for a CD of
this type and expect a lot of buyin. It's about the cost of a sourcebook
but much cheaper to mass produce, people are already accepting of that
price (Although the US->Cdn exchange rate is currently evil in that
respect :) ) I'd say the best bet is to sell the collection on CD with allowing
per-book downloads for 2-5$ off a website for people like me who are only
missing 3-4 books.

> on the website so that they can sell the PDF's online but not so they
> can be downloaded....you place your order and then they put it on a CD
> for you and send it to you....you could pay $X for your entire
> collection on one CD or however many it'd take due to the size of your
> collection

Except this would be completely cost ineffective. WoTC's system works
because it's fast, cheap and impulse driven. I get nostalgic to play the
Castle Amber model I pay my 2.50 or 5.00 (More than the coverprice I paid
for the real one in the early 80's now that I think about it but...)
Scan once, throw it on a web site, forget about it and any money made is
gravy once you cover your scan charges.

>and then for the GM it'd be glorious cause they could just
> bring a laptop to the game and then have all of their books. Otherwise
> they could do like they did with the steven king book that was released
> online, put in a piece of coding so that you HAVE to have a specific
> program to open it that has the coding on it and then charge like $15 or
> 20 for the program to read them and then like $5 a book and then they'd
> be making money because you'd have to get the program to read them so
> even if idiots were sharing them online then you'd still be getting
> yours out of the program sales.
>
>
Custom reader == Horrible idea.

First: Fanpro is not going to have anywhere near the resources that Adobe
has in Acrobat, it's taken quite a few years for AR to get where it is,
and that's from a company who's core competence is in document layout.

Second: Proprietary formats are easily broken, expecially when they're
created by companies that don't want to invest vast amounts, see how
easily Adobe's 'secure' ebook product was broken. All proprietary formats
do is encourage people to 'fight the system' and break it to redistribute.

Third: What's to stop me from sharing the reader online?


Personally I'd love to see the books available for a small charge in
e-format. I think DNA/DOA is one of the better done modules I've seen for
shadowrun (At least on the surface, haven't run it) and I think more
people should see it.

As well, by taking the bull(no not that bull..) by the horns and releasing
the PDF's Fanpro is establishing that, yes sharing OCR's of the books will
be 'wrong' because there is a legit source to obtain them. Currently I
agree with the idea that until Fanpro steps up and releases the OOP books
in some form or the other that it's not really wrong to share 'homebrew'
copies, and I'm a fairly Anti-napster/Gnutella/Filesharing person, having
never used them.
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 20:20:01 2002
At 14:32 10/02/2002, Derek Hyde wrote:

>bring a laptop to the game and then have all of their books. Otherwise
>they could do like they did with the steven king book that was released
>online, put in a piece of coding so that you HAVE to have a specific
>program to open it that has the coding on it and then charge like $15 or
>20 for the program to read them and then like $5 a book and then they'd
>be making money because you'd have to get the program to read them so
>even if idiots were sharing them online then you'd still be getting
>yours out of the program sales.

Because nobody has ever thought to pirate a piece of software before, of
course. ;-)

I'm pretty sure a custom reader of any sort is wayyyy out of the scope of
this potential product. PDF is well established and cross platform, so for
any electronic products designed to look like proper books, I'm sure it
would be the way things would go.

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 20:45:00 2002
At 14:46 10/02/2002, Derek Hyde wrote:

>instead of just certain role playing stores. The other HUGE issue that
>I've run into with getting books that FanPro is still printing is that
>they never sent out a "catalog" through the distributors that do carry
>their stuff so all of the stores I've gone to looked at me like I'd
>grown a 2nd head when I asked if they could order something..."what? us
>order something we've got no book code or numbers or price for? You've
>smoked good crack and must be holding out on us"

All FanPro releases and re-releases have been advertised in Previews.

All the distributors that carry out material are listed at
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/retail.html, along with our primary
distributors contact info. Any gaming shop should be able to call up their
distributors and then receive the necessary info, and new releases should
of course come across the retailers desks in the form of "New releases at
<distributor>" faxes/emails that get sent around each week.

Adam
Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 21:20:01 2002
> All FanPro releases and re-releases have been advertised in Previews.
>
> All the distributors that carry out material are listed at
> http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/retail.html, along with our primary
> distributors contact info. Any gaming shop should be able to call up
their
> distributors and then receive the necessary info, and new releases
should
> of course come across the retailers desks in the form of "New releases
at
> <distributor>" faxes/emails that get sent around each week.

Ok BUT I'm referring to the books that you yourself said never left
print....the core books....it took me a month and a half just to get
someone here to actually do the work of calling around to find out if
they could still get me another copy of the main rulebook!
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jason Mulligan)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 22:40:01 2002
On 10/02/2002 at 0:08 Adam Jury wrote:

>At 23:58 09/02/2002, Anders wrote:
>
> >Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's
>>out of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.
>
>Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material was
>coming out?

I dunno. I certainly would stop looking, and would definitely buy such a compilation in
a second. Assuming the scans were decent enough quality.
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jason Mulligan)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Sun Feb 10 22:40:07 2002
On 10/02/2002 at 13:20 Gurth wrote:

>According to Adam Jury, on Sun, 10 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...
>
>> Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material
>> was coming out?
>
>Is this a hint? :)
>
>Anyway, I'm not sure; I have a feeling most SR die-hards (those of us who
>buy any book with an SR logo on it :) would buy it, but that they'd then
>be immediately asked for copies by those other members of their group who
>only buy the books that interest them. I wouldn't be surprised to find it up
>for download soon after release, too. In the end, I guess it depends on the
>price of the CD more than on anything else.

Yeah. I myself bought the Dragon archive, which was IMO well worth the money. If its
of a similar quality (scan wise) I'd be willing to pony up a similar amount of money. Any
more, and I'd probably want to buy it in a piecemeal fashion just getting the items I'm
missing.
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Mon Feb 11 05:40:14 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Ok BUT I'm referring to the books that you yourself said never left
> print....the core books....it took me a month and a half just to get
> someone here to actually do the work of calling around to find out if
> they could still get me another copy of the main rulebook!

That sounds more like a problem with your retailer than anything else...
Have you tried mail-order?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Mon Feb 11 05:40:24 2002
According to Adam Jury, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Because nobody has ever thought to pirate a piece of software before, of
> course. ;-)

Not to mention this would make the CD platform-specific -- most likely
Windoze -- whereas using a generic format (like PDF) is readable on many
more systems.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Mon Feb 11 09:05:01 2002
>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@**.hut.fi>

>I think yes.

>I would buy that one immediately.

>(Ever tried to find Tir Tairngire somewhere? My solution was to buy Die
>Länder der Verheißung, although I had Tir NaNog already...)

The other day, I got very nostalgic while looking over some of my favorite
first and second edition sourcebooks for SR. They were abused from too many
players and not enough books to go around. They looked much worn, and well
loved. I strolled over to Ebay and typed "shadowrun" in as my search
string. Applying the rule that I would not pay more than the original price
of the book, I now have every first and second edition book, every novel,
and enough duplicates of each to cut down on the wear and tear. (e.g. One
main rule book per player, that sort of thing)

However, a CD set containing all the OOP books would be purchased before my
debit card could blink (if, in fact, it can at all).
One thing: I hope an SR sourcebook CD would be laid out better than the
AD&D Core Rules CDs were. Those were some VERY shoddy work, and a waste of
money. Money that could have been spent on SR products. :)

Korishinzo

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Mon Feb 11 09:40:02 2002
> Not to mention this would make the CD platform-specific -- most likely
> Windoze -- whereas using a generic format (like PDF) is readable on
many
> more systems.

But if you were doing it couldn't you just do it in something that they
could easily convert to mac so that they could make it a dual platform
disc? (or just make it win/Linux unless my understanding of OS X is
wrong in that there's a way you can run linux/unix stuff on it)
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Mon Feb 11 09:45:01 2002
> One thing: I hope an SR sourcebook CD would be laid out better than
the
> AD&D Core Rules CDs were. Those were some VERY shoddy work, and a
waste
> of
> money. Money that could have been spent on SR products. :)
now now....I said similarly.....I like the fact that I can do a search
for something off the top of my head
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Mon Feb 11 14:10:21 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> But if you were doing it couldn't you just do it in something that they
> could easily convert to mac so that they could make it a dual platform
> disc?

You'd have to write two (or more) versions of the same program, though. The
easy way would be to do this through careful design (so that you can port
as many parts of it over directly without any real re-writing needs), while
you could also choose for the hard way of writing a separate program for
each platform. The problem with all those methods remains, though, that
you'd need to put in even more effort than is already required to create a
specialized, protected reader. That's probably fine if you're a company
like Sun, Microsoft, Apple, etc. but not really feasible for FanPro, I
think :)

> (or just make it win/Linux unless my understanding of OS X is
> wrong in that there's a way you can run linux/unix stuff on it)

I don't know much about MacOS X, but I do know there's no such thing as
"win/Linux." Windows programs only work under Linux with the right
emulators (such as WINE in this case) but that's true for every two OSs you
care to name; you could write your program so that it'll compile under *nix
as well as on a Windows machine or a Mac if you do it right (like a lot of
the GNU software, http://www.gnu.org) but that's about it, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Tue Feb 12 02:40:01 2002
[Tir Tairngire]
On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Ice Heart wrote:
> loved. I strolled over to Ebay and typed "shadowrun" in as my search
> string. Applying the rule that I would not pay more than the original price
> of the book, I now have every first and second edition book, every novel,
> and enough duplicates of each to cut down on the wear and tear. (e.g.

Well, I tried that first, but ebay didn't have the books at agreable
prices, or the seller wouldn't sell to any other country than the US, or
something.

Yes, I could have used more time for this. Usually I still prefer to buy
from stores, not individual people.

--
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<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@***.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Fri Feb 22 16:15:18 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Jury" <adam@************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Legality Question


: At 23:58 09/02/2002, Anders wrote:
:
: >Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's
out
: >of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.
:
: Would people stop if FanPro announced a CD compilation of old material was
: coming out?
:
: Adam
: Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com

Probably, and I would be the first to pre-order a few from mu distributor.
--Anders:
:
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: [OT] Legality Question
Date: Fri Feb 22 17:00:03 2002
At 23:58 09/02/2002, Anders wrote:

> Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with Net Publishing stuff that's
> out of print, and that the owners appear to have no intention of reprinting.

Maybe this helps: it's the lone decision of the copright owner to decide
what he wants to do with his property. After all, it's his stuff and not yours.


--
Arclight @*********.de
I won't turn into a snake. It never helps.

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