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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Mon Jun 3 23:45:00 2002

Message no. 1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Just a not to all of you lovers of classic movies...
Legend (remember, released in 1986, tom cruise, the girl, the elves, the
demon, the unicorns, good vs evil and love prevails?) has been released
in the "Legend Ultimate Edition" DVD, it's a 2 disc set with the
original director's version (director being Ridley Scott...Aliens, Blade
Runner, and more) and the officially released for the public version on
the second disc. This movie is WELL worth the $20 I paid for it, also
the reason I mention this is because I wanted to get ideas from all of
you on what movies and books you would make mandatory reads/watches for
gamers...

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Just a not to all of you lovers of classic
movies…..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Legend (remember, released in 1986, tom cruise, the girl,
the elves, the demon, the unicorns, good <span class=SpellE>vs</span>
evil and
love prevails?) has been released in the “Legend Ultimate Edition”
DVD, it’s a 2 disc set with the original director’s version
(director being Ridley Scott…..Aliens, Blade Runner, and more) and the
officially released for the public version on the second disc. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>This movie is WELL worth the $20 I
paid
for it, also the reason I mention this is because I wanted to get ideas from
all of you on what movies and books you would make mandatory reads/watches for
gamers…….<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Mon Jun 3 23:50:01 2002

Message no. 2 In a message dated 6/3/2002 11:47:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dhyde@*********.net writes:

> what movies and books you would make mandatory reads/watches for
> gamers...

I think the biggest duh-huh here would be the Shadowrun novels, so I'll get
that out of the way first. Beyond that, moviewise there's a lot to draw from.
The Matrix, Barb Wire, Johnny Mnemonic, Gone in 60 Seconds might be a good
one for riggers, Swordfish, Sneakers, Hackers, Blade Runner, possibly some of
the 007 movies... There's a whole slew out there. Anime-wise you might also
watch Ghost in the Shell. It seems to draw somewhat from Shadowrun, or it
could even have been the other way around.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 02:40:01 2002

Message no. 3 From: <KiltedJamesman@***.com>

> In a message dated 6/3/2002 11:47:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> dhyde@*********.net writes:
>
> > what movies and books you would make mandatory reads/watches for
> > gamers...
>
> I think the biggest duh-huh here would be the Shadowrun novels, so I'll
get
> that out of the way first. Beyond that, moviewise there's a lot to draw
from.
> The Matrix, Barb Wire, Johnny Mnemonic, Gone in 60 Seconds might be a good
> one for riggers, Swordfish, Sneakers, Hackers, Blade Runner, possibly some
of
> the 007 movies... There's a whole slew out there. Anime-wise you might
also
> watch Ghost in the Shell. It seems to draw somewhat from Shadowrun, or it
> could even have been the other way around.

I would say both draw from the work of Gibson, Sterling and their ilk.
MfG Thorger Sünert

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 04:55:02 2002

Message no. 4 According to Derek Hyde, on Tue, 04 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> Just a not to all of you lovers of classic movies...
> Legend (remember, released in 1986, tom cruise, the girl

Mia Sara, who you might also recognize from Ferris Buehler's Day Off and
the IMHO much less watchable Time Cop :)

> the elves, the
> demon, the unicorns, good vs evil and love prevails?) has been released
> in the "Legend Ultimate Edition" DVD

It was also on BBC 2 yesterday, but I'm guessing this was the standard
version.

> the reason I mention this is because I wanted to get ideas from all of
> you on what movies and books you would make mandatory reads/watches for
> gamers...

Shadowrun gamers, I suppose... I've seen a bunch of good suggestions
mentioned already, and I'll add a few more (with the note that I'll most
likely think of others sometime later today, but not right now :)

Movies:
* Cube -- if you want a Renraku Arcology: Shutdown campaign, anyway: just
have Deus run the maze.
* Heat -- if you hire shadowrunners to rob banks, this is how I suppose
it'll go :)
* La Haine -- a day in some young people's lives in a poor neighborhood
against a backdrop of rioting and police violence.

Novels:
* Microserfs (Douglas Coupland) -- the first part of the book gives good
ideas of office culture that could well be applied to some of the SR corps.
* Snow Crash (Neal Stpehenson) -- some useful stuff to apply to SR society
in general.

TV:
* 24 -- I'll have to see the whole series before I can really comment on
how to use this for SR, but so far it looks like a good example of how to
have an NPC set up the PCs to get them to do somthing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 10:55:01 2002

Message no. 5 Gurth,

> * Heat -- if you hire shadowrunners to rob banks, this is how I suppose
> it'll go :)

I never like this movie. Too much violence. And you'll note they mostly all
died in the end. There are two films about heists I really enjoyed; The Heist
(Delroy Lindo, Gene Hackman, Danny DeVito) and The Score (Robert DeNiro, and
Edward Norton.)

Heist I really enjoyed because that's exactly the sort of resourcefulness my
runners have employed in the past to pull off runs.

Score I also really liked (not just because its filmed in my home town) because
of all the "realistic" technology employed to complete the robbery. The only
bit I didn't like was the weak password checking scene. But you come to expect
lame computer scenes in movies.

A third film, which was actually better than I expected was Anti-Trust. (sp?)
(with Tim Robbins.) which is pretty SR insofar as you have nasty software
houses killing programmers just to get their hands on code. I've used that
plot more than once, and I'm sure I'll use it again!

Xian

> Novels:
> * Microserfs (Douglas Coupland) -- the first part of the book gives good
> ideas of office culture that could well be applied to some of the SR corps.
> * Snow Crash (Neal Stpehenson) -- some useful stuff to apply to SR society
> in general.

Neal Stephenson is all good (except the Diamond Age, but maybe I should re-read
it. I really liked Zodiac for a great archetype fo the eco-terrorist.
Cryptonomicon is also good to help form tech-plots.

Michael Marshall Smith is also an interesting author for cross genre types of
literature. You've got all elements of cyberpunk, some Matrix, and even some
more surreal Burroughs drugged out sci-fi. I can't recommend Michael Marshall
Smith highly enough. He's a damned good writer!

> * 24 -- I'll have to see the whole series before I can really comment on
> how to use this for SR, but so far it looks like a good example of how to
> have an NPC set up the PCs to get them to do somthing.

Gurth, I have become oddly addicted to this show. I really hate it. I think
it's pretty rubbish with crappy dialogue and even worse acting. However, I
still watch it religiously (for you US types, europeans are only up to hour
11-12 so please no spoilers!) and I don't really know why. Maybe the plot will
come together in the next couple of hours and I'll be less critical of it.

You would have thought kidnapping as a tool for control pretty well done by
now, but I guess not. Personally, I've found the best way to get PCs to do
something is to believe they're doing the right thing. Then you turn them on
their heads once they've done it!

I have a question however...What's this about federal agents using silencers?
Is that explained in the show? Or do US counter terrorists routinely get
issued with kit like that? If anyone can elaborate on this I'ld appreciate it.

Anyone ever heard of or watched a TV show called the Sentinel?

Xian.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 11:10:01 2002

Message no. 6 At 15:52 04.06.2002 +0100, Christian Casavant wrote:

> > * Heat -- if you hire shadowrunners to rob banks, this is how I suppose
> > it'll go :)
>
>I never like this movie. Too much violence. And you'll note they mostly all
>died in the end.

I really have to disagree here. IMO it's about some real professionals and
the way a good runner should act. Ok, this is one of my favourite movies :)

Arclight

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 12:20:00 2002

Message no. 7 On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:11:14 +0200
Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> At 15:52 04.06.2002 +0100, Christian Casavant wrote:
>
> >> * Heat -- if you hire shadowrunners to rob banks, this is how I
> suppose
> >> it'll go :)
> >
> >I never like this movie. Too much violence. And you'll note they
> mostly all
> >died in the end.
>

For the roleplaying end of things, there's always Junkyard Dogs.

--Anders

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 13:25:01 2002

Message no. 8 According to Christian Casavant, on Tue, 04 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> > * Heat -- if you hire shadowrunners to rob banks, this is how I suppose
> > it'll go :)
>
> I never like this movie. Too much violence. And you'll note they mostly
> all died in the end.

Like I said: if you hire shadowrunners to rob banks, this is how I suppose it'll
go :)

Maybe your group works differently (that's the diplomatic way of saying "screws
up less" :) than mine, though...

> Neal Stephenson is all good (except the Diamond Age, but maybe I should
> re-read it. I really liked Zodiac for a great archetype fo the
> eco-terrorist. Cryptonomicon is also good to help form tech-plots.

I've not read Zodiac, but I agree about the other two books.

> > * 24
>
> Gurth, I have become oddly addicted to this show. I really hate it. I
> think it's pretty rubbish with crappy dialogue and even worse acting.

I never seem to notice those things (with the exception of anything made in this
country, where IMO everyone acts as if they're on stage) so I'm enjoying the show
so far. The reason I feel it's useful for SR, is because the stuff that happens
in it, and the way in which it happens, is rather Shadowrun-ish, if you ask me.

> However, I still watch it religiously (for you US types, europeans are
> only up to hour 11-12 so please no spoilers!)

BBC2 aired the 12:00-13:00 episode last Sunday. Anything that happens after that,
I don't want to hear :)

> I have a question however...What's this about federal agents using
> silencers? Is that explained in the show?

Not AFAIK, and anyway the silencer that always seems to be on Jack Bauer's pistol
is so small it would barely have any effect, I'd think...

> Or do US counter terrorists
> routinely get issued with kit like that? If anyone can elaborate on this
> I'ld appreciate it.

I guess you can chalk that up to dramatic license, as it all comes across as
somewhat unrealistic if you do know a little about this kind of stuff IRL :)
Still, IMHO it works for the show, and that's what counts.

> Anyone ever heard of or watched a TV show called the Sentinel?

Heard the name, but that's about it, I think...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 13:35:00 2002

Message no. 9 Gurth wrote:

>I guess you can chalk that up to dramatic license, as it all comes across as
>somewhat unrealistic if you do know a little about this kind of stuff IRL :)
>Still, IMHO it works for the show, and that's what counts.
>
>

Of course they're using dramatic license, do you really think he can
drive from his house to his office in like 5 minutes in LA?

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 14:00:01 2002

Message no. 10 <Snipped responses>

>I have a question however...What's this about federal agents using
silencers?
>Is that explained in the show? Or do US counter terrorists routinely get
>issued with kit like that? If anyone can elaborate on this I'ld appreciate
it.

As far as I know, Military-CT units get silencers. As for police force CT
units (SWAT, FBI, Secret Service), not to sure. I can give you my reasoning
behind this, but do you really want my half-logic right now (I'm also hungry
as it's lunch time, so I'm trying to hurry).

>Anyone ever heard of or watched a TV show called the Sentinel?

Yeah, watched it along with Christopher Loyd's show about a video game that
came to life.
The Sentinel was pretty good, kinda like a Physad that was Awakened but
didn't know it.
He had to learn to turn off his abilities.

EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 16:50:01 2002

Message no. 11 John,

> As far as I know, Military-CT units get silencers. As for police force CT
> units (SWAT, FBI, Secret Service), not to sure. I can give you my reasoning
> behind this, but do you really want my half-logic right now (I'm also hungry
> as it's lunch time, so I'm trying to hurry).

I figured the silencer was a piece of military kit, but as far as I knew law
enforcement agencies didn't get them. There are lots of great reasons to issue
them, but there's just something behind the philosophy/intent of a silencer that
doesn't sit well in my mind if law enforcement use them.

I guess we'll just chalk it up to Hollywood cool factor.

I was thinking though, Gurth. There are certainly alot of SR type techie ideas
in 24 that lend well to an epic style game. It is a kind of interesting show
though. It reminds me alot of how the original version of the Thomas Crown
Affair was shot.edited. Alot of shows in the UK are emulating the presentation
of 24 now as well.

> Yeah, watched it along with Christopher Loyd's show about a video game that
> came to life.
> The Sentinel was pretty good, kinda like a Physad that was Awakened but
> didn't know it.
> He had to learn to turn off his abilities.

When I was living in Brussels, they used to play it a couple of times of Month,
but I had never heard of it, nor seen it since. But it did kind of have this
shamanistic physad thing going. Seemed neat. If I remember rightly, the main
character is in 24. Plays one of the main flunkies.

Never heard of Christopher Loyd thing, but I hear Tron 2 is on it's way.

Xian.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 17:15:01 2002

Message no. 12 Gurth,

This isn't really related to any of the recommendations you meant, but I
remembered it suddenly and thought it's a must read for GMs who need reference
material on how to get the most of their NPC LSSS types who would have lots of
trouble tackling Runners head on.

It's called "The Operators" and is a look at 14 Company, an intelligence
gathering outfit which saw alot of action in Northern Ireland during the
troubles. (Probably still there for all I know.) They get alot of
paramilitary training from what I gather, but their forte is intelligence.

The book is a wicked view of the tactical aspects of communication while
staking out suspects.

The author is called James Rennie.

Xian.

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Tue Jun 4 18:50:01 2002

Message no. 13 In a message dated 6/4/2002 12:08:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
shadowrn-request@*********.com writes:

what movies and books you would make mandatory reads/watches for gamers...

I would have to say that all 3 of the Evil Dead movies would be mandatory if
you were to make the classic tough guy or you wanted to borrow some kick ass
lines like
"come get some" or " good. bad. Im the guy with the gun.", etc.
Bladerunner is a really good example, i think, of what the world of shadowrun
would look like. Agree/Disagree?

-Scryin' Man

"I'm Watching"

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Wed Jun 5 05:00:02 2002

Message no. 14 >From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>TV:
>* 24 -- I'll have to see the whole series before I can really comment on
>how to use this for SR, but so far it looks like a good example of how to
>have an NPC set up the PCs to get them to do somthing.

I'd also add BBC's Spooks (MI5 not 9 to 5) to that, it isn't as good as 24
but it does have some nice insights into surveillance/countersurveillance
scattered through it, probably 50% ficitious or at least hugely out of date
but hey!

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Wed Jun 5 05:20:01 2002

Message no. 15 According to Justin Bell, on Tue, 04 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> Of course they're using dramatic license, do you really think he can
> drive from his house to his office in like 5 minutes in LA?

Well, it _was_ in the middle of the night...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Wed Jun 5 11:25:01 2002

Message no. 16 >> As far as I know, Military-CT units get silencers. As for police force
CT
>> units (SWAT, FBI, Secret Service), not to sure. I can give you my
reasoning
>> behind this, but do you really want my half-logic right now (I'm also
hungry
>> as it's lunch time, so I'm trying to hurry).
>
>I figured the silencer was a piece of military kit, but as far as I knew
law
>enforcement agencies didn't get them. There are lots of great reasons to
issue
>them, but there's just something behind the philosophy/intent of a silencer
that
>doesn't sit well in my mind if law enforcement use them.

Anti-terrorist and tactical squads in the military and probably in the
police use the silencer or suppressors to make it more difficult for the bad
guys to get a fix on them when the drek hits the fan. Also if they can
delay the baddies from realizing they are being attacked even for a few
fractions of a second it can greatly decrease the number of casualties.

Coyote

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject:	[OT] Legend
Date:	Wed Jun 5 18:50:01 2002

Message no. 17 In article <3CFCD41F.6FDF40AE@********.org>, Christian Casavant
<christian@********.org> writes
>I never like this movie. Too much violence. And you'll note they mostly all
>died in the end.

Which is unrealistic how, about armed robbers who decide to shoot it out
with the police?

--
Paul J. Adam

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