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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 02:10:01 2001

Message no. 1 > Hey, stop that hinting! What's this about Tom
> Bombadil's position in the Tolkien universe??

Tolkien never comes out and says it, but it's strongly implied that Bombadil
may in fact be one of the Valar. Evidence provided is the fact that the
Ring has no power over him, when even the Maiar can be tempted by it
(witness Gandalf's refusal to take the ring, as well as the fall of
Sauroman...) Admittedly, the Istari are well below the peak of the power
that they held (as Maiar) in the first and second ages (and presumably were
always less powerful than Sauron, who at one time was the most powerful of
the Maiar.)

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 04:35:01 2001

Message no. 2 > Tolkien never comes out and says it, but it's
strongly implied that Bombadil may in fact be one of
the Valar. Evidence provided is the fact that the
Ring has no power over him, when even the Maiar can be
tempted by it (witness Gandalf's refusal to take the
ring, as well as the fall of Sauroman...) Admittedly,
the Istari are well below the peak of the power that
they held (as Maiar) in the first and second ages (and
presumably were always less powerful than Sauron, who
at one time was the most powerful of the Maiar.)

Uh...about half of that made sense.

:)

Thanks, Chris.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 05:55:02 2001

Message no. 3 According to Rand Ratinac, on Fri, 21 Dec 2001 the word on the street
was...

> > Tolkien never comes out and says it, but it's
> > strongly implied that Bombadil may in fact be one of
> > the Valar. Evidence provided is the fact that the
> > Ring has no power over him, when even the Maiar can be
> > tempted by it (witness Gandalf's refusal to take the
> > ring, as well as the fall of Sauroman...) Admittedly,
> > the Istari are well below the peak of the power that
> > they held (as Maiar) in the first and second ages (and
> > presumably were always less powerful than Sauron, who
> > at one time was the most powerful of the Maiar.)
>
> Uh...about half of that made sense.

IIRC (which I might not -- it's been years since I read the Silmarillion),
the Valar are, basically, a kind of minor gods. The Maiar are then more
like angels or demi-gods, serving the Valar. Istari are the wizards sent by
the Valar (I think) to oppose Sauron, with the main ones being Gandalf and
Saruman (notice the correct spelling :) both of whom appear in the LotR
movie. Tom Bombadil plays a very minor part in LotR (the novel) but doesn't
appear in LotR (the movie), but it's clear that he's a _lot_ more than just
some guy living in a cabin in the woods.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Steffens)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 06:25:05 2001

Message no. 4 > From: Chris Beilby

> Tolkien never comes out and says it, but it's strongly implied that
> Bombadil
> may in fact be one of the Valar.

Actually he's a Maiar, there are references to him being the eldest
Maiar in the Silmarillion IIRC. The reason that the Ring has no power
over him would have more to do that it can't offer him anything that he
wants, besides it being made by someone on the same level (not
necessarily power level) as him. Tom chose to live and become the care
taker of a small part of the woods with his "wife" (another Maiar) and
he doesn't want anything more than that.
The Ring can tempt the wizards (Istari) because with taking on human
form, they've become far more exposed to greed, lust for power and the
whole gamut of human emotions. Note that two of them went eastwards and
got corrupted without any help from Rings, dark powers, etc.

Martin

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 08:35:01 2001

Message no. 5 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the
Silmarillion)

> > Tolkien never comes out and says it, but it's
> strongly implied that Bombadil may in fact be one of
> the Valar. Evidence provided is the fact that the
> Ring has no power over him, when even the Maiar can be
> tempted by it (witness Gandalf's refusal to take the
> ring, as well as the fall of Sauroman...) Admittedly,
> the Istari are well below the peak of the power that
> they held (as Maiar) in the first and second ages (and
> presumably were always less powerful than Sauron, who
> at one time was the most powerful of the Maiar.)
>
> Uh...about half of that made sense.
>
> :)

:) I guess it helps if you've read the Silmarillion...

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 08:35:05 2001

Message no. 6 IIRC (which I might not -- it's been years since I read the Silmarillion),
the Valar are, basically, a kind of minor gods. The Maiar are then more
like angels or demi-gods, serving the Valar. Istari are the wizards sent by
the Valar (I think) to oppose Sauron, with the main ones being Gandalf and
Saruman (notice the correct spelling :) both of whom appear in the LotR
movie. Tom Bombadil plays a very minor part in LotR (the novel) but doesn't
appear in LotR (the movie), but it's clear that he's a _lot_ more than just
some guy living in a cabin in the woods.

And just to add to what Gurth said, it's not mentioned in LotR, but numbered
among the Maiar were the Istari (the Wizards,) Sauron, and the various
Balrogs, of which the one in Moria may be the last... Again, most of this
is mentioned in the Silmarillion.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 09:15:00 2001

Message no. 7 > > Uh...about half of that made sense.
> >
> > :)
>
> :) I guess it helps if you've read the
Silmarillion...

<snipt!(TM)>

I did...once...millions and millions of years ago...

That's why half of it made sense. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
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From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 12:35:01 2001

Message no. 8 On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Martin Steffens wrote:

> whole gamut of human emotions. Note that two of them went eastwards and
> got corrupted without any help from Rings, dark powers, etc.
>

now I always wondered what happened to the others..but have never made it
through the Silmarilion far enough to find out - could you enlighten me?

--
john@*****.net
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
federal general Sedgwick at battle of Spottslvainia, 1864
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Fri Dec 21 14:00:00 2001

Message no. 9 Not written in Tolkien's books, but rather by his children after
Tolikien's demise. Thus it is all speculation!

Bandit (throwing moldy oreos, she just found)
Holly

On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:09:49 -0500 "Chris Beilby" <cbeilby@******.net>
writes:
>
> > Hey, stop that hinting! What's this about Tom
> > Bombadil's position in the Tolkien universe??
>
> Tolkien never comes out and says it, but it's strongly implied that
> Bombadil
> may in fact be one of the Valar. Evidence provided is the fact that
> the
> Ring has no power over him, when even the Maiar can be tempted by it
> (witness Gandalf's refusal to take the ring, as well as the fall of
> Sauroman...) Admittedly, the Istari are well below the peak of the
> power
> that they held (as Maiar) in the first and second ages (and
> presumably were
> always less powerful than Sauron, who at one time was the most
> powerful of
> the Maiar.)
>
>

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Sat Dec 22 07:50:01 2001

Message no. 10 > Not written in Tolkien's books, but rather by his children after
> Tolikien's demise. Thus it is all speculation!

Christopher Tolkien did NOT write the Silmarillion, which is the source of
most of this information.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (steven collins)
Subject:	[OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the Silmarillion)
Date:	Wed Dec 26 17:35:01 2001

Message no. 11 ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Beilby <cbeilby@******.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Lord of the Rings (Spoilers for the books and the
Silmarillion)

>
>
>
> > Not written in Tolkien's books, but rather by his children after
> > Tolikien's demise. Thus it is all speculation!
>
> Christopher Tolkien did NOT write the Silmarillion, which is the
source of
> most of this information.
>
>
>

Correct, Tolkien left tomes of notes on the history of Middle Earth
which can be found unedited in the "Unfinished Tales" line of books or
in an edited form in the Silmarillion.

Christopher served as the editor of the Silmarillion, tying the
various notes his father left into a coherent story. In the unfinished
tales you get pretty much the notes with various cross references to
help you understand what the heck they are talking about since a lot
of them start or end mid story. I believe at last count there were
close to 10 volumes of the Unfinished Tales (that will give you some
idea of just how much material Tolkien left behind on the history of
middle earth).

Steve

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