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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 00:40:00 2001
Hey, guys...me again. :)

Two questions. The first is a military one - Dave,
bub, I'm looking at you. ;)

How much time in service would a grunt have to serve
in a) the Marines in general, and/or b) Marine Force
Recon in particular in order to earn the various
sergeant ranks?

Okay, science guys, your turn.

The myomer/myomar technology of BattleTech fame - does
this stuff have a grounding in real tech, or is it
just theory? If it's just theory, is it considered
workable theory at some point in the future, or is it
just pie-in-the-sky stuff? Or for that matter, is it
simply an invention of science fiction?

If it IS real and/or realistic, are the descriptions
of how it works in BattleTech at all accurate (or if
you don't know BattleTech, could you just give me a
quick rundown on how it works)?

Thanks, guys.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 00:55:01 2001
At 05:46 AM 7/17/2001 +0100, Doc' wrote:
>Hey, guys...me again. :)
>
>Two questions. The first is a military one - Dave,
>bub, I'm looking at you. ;)
>
>How much time in service would a grunt have to serve
>in a) the Marines in general, and/or b) Marine Force
>Recon in particular in order to earn the various
>sergeant ranks?


Easy question:

First, to answer the second question: (almost) everyone in Force Recon is
an infantry MOS (Military Ocuupational Specialty, or job for short) and as
you get promoted by your MOS, the guys in Force would get promoted just as
fast/slow as other infantry guys. There are some benefits to promotion
from being in a Recon billet, but there are also some disadvantages, and on
the average, it seems to even out.

Now, for promotions, I'll go through the ranks, listin total time in
service average for each rank

Corporal ~2 years
Sergeant ~4-5 years
Staff Sergeant ~9 years
Gunnery Sergeant ~14 years
Master Sergeant ~18 years
Master Gunnery Sgt ~22 or more years


However, the time in service for MSgt and MGySgt are rather nebulous, as
there are a whole lot of variables at that point.

Also, a GySgt has to choose whether he will stay in his MOS and get
promoted to MSgt and then to MGySgt, or he can choose to branch out, and
become more of a general leadership person, forsaking his MOS and getting
promoted to First Sergeant, and then to Sergeant Major.

1st Sgt's and Sgt Majors are not assigned according to their MOS, but are
all assigned generally, with one 1st Sgt per company of Marines, no matter
the MOS, and one Sgt Major per Battalion of Marines. Additionally, all
units above Battalion size have a Sgt Major as the senior enlisted advisor
to the Commanding Officers, up to and including the entire USMC, known as
the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps.

Does that answer your questions?

Dave
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 01:30:01 2001
> Easy question:
<snipt!(TM)>
> Now, for promotions, I'll go through the ranks,
listin total time in service average for each rank
>
> Corporal ~2 years
> Sergeant ~4-5 years
> Staff Sergeant ~9 years
> Gunnery Sergeant ~14 years
> Master Sergeant ~18 years
> Master Gunnery Sgt ~22 or more years
<snipt!(TM)>
> Does that answer your questions?
> Dave

It most certainly does. One further question occurs,
though - is there any way to fast-track this process
(either by design, or by circumstance (such as a field
promotion during wartime))?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 01:40:01 2001
At 06:34 AM 7/17/2001 +0100, Doc' wrote:
>
>It most certainly does. One further question occurs,
>though - is there any way to fast-track this process
>(either by design, or by circumstance (such as a field
>promotion during wartime))?

Of course!

Wartime promotions are really only bi when people die, but when there are
deaths, you have to replace the guys. The were even field commissions
during Vietnam, in other words making a sergeant into a Lieutenant.

During peace, it is not quite so easy, but for the first couple of ranks,
it's not so hard. You can be selected for meritorious promotion to
corporal and sergeant up to two or three years ahead of your time, and you
have to remeber those times listed are averages. Some people just get
promoted faster because they are are either better, or they can brown nose
better. The brown nosing is not as common as you might think, but it does
happen.

Finally, Drill Instructors (the guys who train new recruits) and recruiters
can be meritoriously promoted to staff sergeant, and accelerated promotion
to gunnery sergeant. Regular guys can also get this, but it is rather
rare; drill instructor and recruiter duty are considered very difficult
duties and are thusly rewarded (as long as you don't screw up, that is)

Dave
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 02:45:01 2001
On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 05:46:20 +0100 (BST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> If it IS real and/or realistic, are the descriptions
> of how it works in BattleTech at all accurate (or if
> you don't know BattleTech, could you just give me a
> quick rundown on how it works)?
>
> Thanks, guys.

If we're not familiar with Battletech, we're not likely to know what in
blazes you are talking about. ;)

It's been a while since my one BattleTech game (or was it two?), so could
you summarize how that myomer stuff supposedly works? :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 03:20:01 2001
>> If it IS real and/or realistic, are the descriptions
>> of how it works in BattleTech at all accurate (or if
>> you don't know BattleTech, could you just give me a
>> quick rundown on how it works)?
>>
>> Thanks, guys.

>If we're not familiar with Battletech, we're not likely to know what in
>blazes you are talking about. ;)

>It's been a while since my one BattleTech game (or was it two?), so could
>you summarize how that myomer stuff supposedly works? :)

Hmm... From my Mechwarrior brief (pre-game synopses), I think the myomer is
similar to the VCR system, but modified and improved (a virtual HUD is
added) and they removed the damage feeling part.

EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 04:25:01 2001
> If we're not familiar with Battletech, we're not
likely to know what in blazes you are talking about.
;)
>
> It's been a while since my one BattleTech game (or
was it two?), so could you summarize how that myomer
stuff supposedly works? :)
> D. Ghost

Myomers are the artificial muscles that move the
BattleMechs. They're fibrous materials that contract
with tremendous force when an electric current is
applied to them (similarly to how real muscles work).

Need any more?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 04:45:01 2001
[Rand Ratinac] writes:

> The myomer/myomar technology of BattleTech fame - does this stuff have a
> grounding in real tech, or is it just theory? If it's just theory, is it
> considered workable theory at some point in the future, or is it just
> pie-in-the-sky stuff? Or for that matter, is it simply an invention of
> science fiction?

If it actually is the artificial muscles that are used as actuators in
battlemechs, then, yes, it does indeed have some founding in reality.

> If it IS real and/or realistic, are the descriptions of how it works in
> BattleTech at all accurate (or if you don't know BattleTech, could you just
> give me a quick rundown on how it works)?

I can give you one example of such a technology, but I think that there may
be more than one kind of process that can generate the effect you're looking
for (ie, I won't say that my technique is neccesarily the best or only one).

I'm not sure how the things are supposed to work in Battletech, though, so I
can't compare all that much. Maybe you might want to enlighten us a little
more with how it is supposed to function in the game.

Anyway, there are a type of polymers (that's plastics) that are able to
conduct electricity. They do this by having alternating single and double
bonds between their backbone carbons. When a potential (voltage) is applied,
the bonds switch, so that what was a single bond becomes a double, and
vice-versa. In this way a current is able to flow along the length of the
polymer. One such polymer is polypyrrile (I think the spelling is right,
it's been a while).

Now, to make things a little more complex, if you grow two films (say, for
reference, these are dimensioned like sheets of paper) of polypyrrile (such
as by electrodeposition), and attach them together with an electrolyte paste
(a very very viscous, ie sticky, mixture of some sort of polymer and salt
ions), then due to an interesting effect regarding adsorption/intercalation
of ions, you have a simple bending artificial muscle.

If that didn't make sense, then let me try and elaborate. One of the
polypyrrile strips is a cathode and one is an anode, and the gel/paste in
the middle is an electroyle. When a voltage is applied (remember, the
polypyrrile conducts elctricity), a curent flows between the two strips. As
in a standard electrochemical cell, this current flows within the
electroylte by the moving of salt ions to the electrodes. With an
appropriately designed electrolyte, it is possible to ensure that only
positive or only negative ions are mobile (eg you have a large polymer chain
with negative ions, and calcium or some other small positive ion attached to
it). Thus, ions only move towards one electrode. When they get to the
electrode, in addition to giving up (or receiving) electrons, they force
their way into the polypyrrile material. This causes the polypyrrile to
expand.

If you were smart, you'd have used an already full polypyrrile strip as the
opposite electrode, so that simultaneously it contracts.

So after a bit of current has been applied, the thing has gone from:

||| to //
||| ||
||| \\

Depending upon the relative mechanical properties (elasticity and strength),
the thing may be able to bend a little bit, or might curl up like a roll of
paper. Exhaustion of the ion supply will also limit the amount of shape
change possible.

More complicated designs, involving multi layered systems with differing
electrolytes (mobile positive or negative ions, or both), pre-filled or
empty polypyrrile strips, and a bit of thought, can result in artificial
muscles that are capable of uniaxial tension or compression (ie can elongate
or contract without bending).

These things run on about 1.5 V (which, coincidently, is about the same
voltage the the human body does), and are something like 20 times as strong
as human muscles. However, they are something like 20 times less flexible,
too.

As far as I am aware, these sorts of things are in experimental stages only,
but certainly with some years of research and engineering behind them they
could really be something.

For what it's worth, shape memory metal or plastic alloys (like those found
in under wire bras that can be tumble dried), are a potential candidate for
artificial muscle actuators. I've seen a robotic hand made from these that
used electric current to provide the small heat changes needed, and it was
able to pick up balls and things. However, this stuff is, like, 20 years old
or something, and nothing has really ever come of it. The polymeric muscles
I've described above have a lot more potential (after all, who wants a
BattleMech that leans to the left on a hot day ;-)).

I might be able to dig up more material if you're really very interested.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wavy Davy)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 07:20:01 2001
On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Damion Milliken wrote:

> [Rand Ratinac] writes:
>
> > The myomer/myomar technology of BattleTech fame - does this stuff have a
> > grounding in real tech, or is it just theory? If it's just theory, is it
> > considered workable theory at some point in the future, or is it just
> > pie-in-the-sky stuff? Or for that matter, is it simply an invention of
> > science fiction?
>
> If it actually is the artificial muscles that are used as actuators in
> battlemechs, then, yes, it does indeed have some founding in reality.

IIRC, Cyberpunk cyberlimbs are specifically based on myom(e|a)r tech. It
doesn't really specify in SR - there are pictures of piston driven limbs,
and what could be myom(e|a)r 'muscle' driven limbs. IMO, synthetic
limbs would need to be myom(e|a)r, to look real.

<snip explanation>
> These things run on about 1.5 V (which, coincidently, is about the same
> voltage the the human body does)

Good explanation :) But how much current would they pull? To lift a
heavy load? Any ideas? I'm just interested to figure out what a
realistic power consumtion would be.

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...I wish I could shrink down to the size of an ant. And maybe there would be
thousands of other people shrunken down to ant-size, and we would get together
and dig tunnels down into the ground and live there. But don't ever call us
"ants," because we hate that.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 07:40:01 2001
> If it actually is the artificial muscles that are
used as actuators in battlemechs, then, yes, it does
indeed have some founding in reality.
>
> I can give you one example of such a technology, but
I think that there may be more than one kind of
process that can generate the effect you're looking
for (ie, I won't say that my technique is neccesarily
the best or only one).
>
> I'm not sure how the things are supposed to work in
Battletech, though, so I can't compare all that much.
Maybe you might want to enlighten us a little more
with how it is supposed to function in the game.

Okay, a quote from MechWarrior, 2nd edition:
"Meanwhile, medical prosthetics research had led to
the development of polyacetene fibres called
"myomers". Under the influence of electricity, bundles
of these fibres would contract strongly, like muscles.
Unfortunately, the minimum bundle length required for
the process was far longer than any human limb." It
then goes on to say that the first 'Mechs "reproduced
body movements through artificial muscle structure
BASED ON (my emphasis) the myomer technology developed
back in the 21st century." After that, it just glosses
over the gradual improvements that led to fully
functional BattleMechs. Unfortunately, that's the best
I can do - maybe someone a bit more fanatical about
the game would be able to provide more details. :)

<snipt!(TM) big-ass explanation>
> I might be able to dig up more material if you're
really very interested.
> Damion Milliken

Woah, cool, yeah I would be, actually. The polymer
stuff that you're talking about is actually more along
the lines of what I'm looking for, because I'm looking
at this at a personal scale - a suit of sorts - which
would mean that flat (if thick, I would presume)
versions of this stuff would be better than bundled 'muscles'.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 13:55:01 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Tue, 17 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> Woah, cool, yeah I would be, actually. The polymer
> stuff that you're talking about is actually more along
> the lines of what I'm looking for, because I'm looking
> at this at a personal scale - a suit of sorts - which
> would mean that flat (if thick, I would presume)
> versions of this stuff would be better than bundled 'muscles'.

I seem to remember seeing something on TV about this once, but with a
material (apparently) quite different to what Damion described: more like a
piece of elastic which contracted when a current was run through it. I
don't have any more details, as I'm not even entirely sure I _did_ see this
on TV, but it'd be much closer to the BT-style myomers than Damion's
suggestion.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 22:40:01 2001
On 7/16/01 11:46 pm, Rand Ratinac said:

>Hey, guys...me again. :)
>
>Two questions. The first is a military one - Dave,
>bub, I'm looking at you. ;)
>
>How much time in service would a grunt have to serve
>in a) the Marines in general, and/or b) Marine Force
>Recon in particular in order to earn the various
>sergeant ranks?
>
>Okay, science guys, your turn.
>
>The myomer/myomar technology of BattleTech fame - does
>this stuff have a grounding in real tech, or is it
>just theory? If it's just theory, is it considered
>workable theory at some point in the future, or is it
>just pie-in-the-sky stuff? Or for that matter, is it
>simply an invention of science fiction?
>
>If it IS real and/or realistic, are the descriptions
>of how it works in BattleTech at all accurate (or if
>you don't know BattleTech, could you just give me a
>quick rundown on how it works)?
>
>Thanks, guys.
>

Yes they are experementing with a materiel today at Dupont (and possibly
others as well) which I'm sure has a different name and chemical
composition from Battletech Myomers however it's effect is exactly the
same. I can't remember off the top of my head what the experemental
difficulties they are experencing are but it has something to do with the
fibres being able to react stronger than their tensile strength (ie they
can tear themselves apart), them only providing vorce in short pulses (so
no prolonged exertion), and essentially them being too strong for muscle
replacements (but perfect for Shadowrun cyberwear). I seem to recall that
they were first being looked at as a replacement for the muscles that
control your eye movements as they work only in short pulses anyway.


Interestingly I read the first articles about the development of these in
the early 90's well after Battletech was written. However I have no idea
if they had been being worked on before that and one of the Battletech
writers had some knowledge of it or if it was a successful prediction
that the Battletech Universe actually made.


Steve
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 23:25:01 2001
> Yes they are experementing with a materiel today at
Dupont (and possibly others as well) which I'm sure
has a different name and chemical composition from
Battletech Myomers however it's effect is exactly the
same.
> Steve

Well, with my designs, it'd be easy to say that
they've ironed out the problems, so that's cool. Do
you have any references for that, Steve? Like, is
information on this stuff available anywhere on the
'net, or in scientific journals, or something?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Tue Jul 17 23:35:01 2001
On 7/17/01 10:32 pm, Rand Ratinac said:

>> Yes they are experementing with a materiel today at
>Dupont (and possibly others as well) which I'm sure
>has a different name and chemical composition from
>Battletech Myomers however it's effect is exactly the
>same.
>> Steve
>
>Well, with my designs, it'd be easy to say that
>they've ironed out the problems, so that's cool. Do
>you have any references for that, Steve? Like, is
>information on this stuff available anywhere on the
>'net, or in scientific journals, or something?
>


I'm sure there are but I can't remember any of them off the top of my
head. I believe I first read about them from either Scientific American
or Discover Magazines circa 1993. I also know I've seen bits about them
done on Science and Technology TV Shows and I'm pretty sure I've seen an
piece about them on CNN's Science and Technology Weekly but I don't
remember when.

I guess I'd begin with a netsearch using the keyword "Artificial Muscles"
and see what that brought up.

The eyeball replacement muscle I remember seeing a demo of on one of the
TV shows (the fibre was moving a fake eyeball in a test aparatus). It
looked like a 4 inch (10 CM) piece of black thread about 4x the thickness
of common sewing thread. This was also done within the last 4 years.


Steve
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [OT] Military and Scientific Gurus, Apply Here.
Date: Sun Jul 22 03:50:02 2001
Wavy Davy writes:

> Good explanation :) But how much current would they pull? To lift a
> heavy load? Any ideas? I'm just interested to figure out what a
> realistic power consumtion would be.

I can't recall off the top of my head. If you're real interested I can check
some old results and try and determine. To the best of my recollection, they
drew milliamps, but only exterted very small forces at the same time, too
(often about the same force needed to break themselves :-)).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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