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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:13:40 -0400
> It would really help if list members would let GridSec deal with the
> MIME attachements :)
>
> Have fun,
> Play nice,
> -David, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)

Actually, the problem would be self-solving if the list were
configured to distribute to everyone, including the sender. Increases
our mail volume slightly (well, maybe more than slightly, for those
more prolific writers among us :) ), but it'd let us see what our
messages looked like, and take steps to correct things if there were
problems. There was a while there when my mailer was being flaky,
and I had no idea whether my messages had actually made it to the list.
Opinions?

--Sean
Message no. 2
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:32:57 -0400
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

<snip GridSec... did I just type that?>
-> Actually, the problem would be self-solving if the list were
->configured to distribute to everyone, including the sender. Increases
->our mail volume slightly (well, maybe more than slightly, for those
->more prolific writers among us :) ), but it'd let us see what our
->messages looked like, and take steps to correct things if there were
->problems. There was a while there when my mailer was being flaky,
->and I had no idea whether my messages had actually made it to the list.
-> Opinions?

I have mine set to send my messages back to me (to let me know it
worked) as well as acknowledgement of sending (and how many people on the
list... 433 at last count... whoo hoo). Might not be a bad idea to set
EVERYONE new to have the send-back automatic, but still give them the
opportunity to change their options (and, therefore, read the damned FAQ
on it).
Of course, it'd also increase the amount of "SET ACK ON" or
whatnot to the list, instead of to the listserv, for the greenies. ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:25:11 -0600
While doing the Hoochy Koochy, Sean McCrohan said:
/
/ > It would really help if list members would let GridSec deal with the
/ > MIME attachements :)
/ >
/ > Have fun,
/ > Play nice,
/ > -David, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)
/
/ Actually, the problem would be self-solving if the list were
/ configured to distribute to everyone, including the sender. Increases
/ our mail volume slightly (well, maybe more than slightly, for those
/ more prolific writers among us :) ), but it'd let us see what our
/ messages looked like, and take steps to correct things if there were
/ problems. There was a while there when my mailer was being flaky,
/ and I had no idea whether my messages had actually made it to the list.
/ Opinions?

Send the following message to listserv@********.itribe.net

Set ShadowRN Repro

This will change your list settings so that the listserv will send you
copies of your posts to ShadowRN.

For information on other nifty commands you can send to the listserv
send the message "Info Refcard" to the same address.

Have fun,
Play nice,
-David, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)
--
dbuehrer@******.carl.org, ShadowRN GridSec: Nice Guy Division
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srnintro.html
Other GridSec members: Dvixen <dvixen@********.com>
Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.net>
List Administrator: Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com>
List Owner: Mark Imbracio <mark.imbracio@*****.com>
Message no. 4
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:24:41 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
> > It would really help if list members would let GridSec deal with the
> > MIME attachements :)
>
> Actually, the problem would be self-solving if the list were
> configured to distribute to everyone, including the sender. Increases
>
Send a message containing "help" to listserv@********.itribe.net. Read
the reply. Send a message containing "set shadowrn repro" to the same
address. In short, RTFH. :-P

James Ojaste
Message no. 5
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:36:04 -0400
> Send the following message to listserv@********.itribe.net
>
> Set ShadowRN Repro
>
> This will change your list settings so that the listserv will send you
> copies of your posts to ShadowRN.
>
> For information on other nifty commands you can send to the listserv
> send the message "Info Refcard" to the same address.
>
> Have fun,
> Play nice,
> -David, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)

*blush*

Oops. Sorry - should have read the FAQ.

--Sean
Message no. 6
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:45:34 -0400
James Ojaste wrote:
> Send a message containing "help" to listserv@********.itribe.net. Read
> the reply. Send a message containing "set shadowrn repro" to the same
> address. In short, RTFH. :-P

My point, however, was that if that was the default behavior,
new list members whose messages weren't getting through (such as
our friend with the MIME problem) would find out immediately, rather
than having to be told. If you don't KNOW you have a problem, you're
not likely to go looking for ways to solve it.

--Sean
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:18:35 +0100
And verily, did Sean McCrohan hastily scribble thusly...
| Actually, the problem would be self-solving if the list were
|configured to distribute to everyone, including the sender. Increases
|our mail volume slightly (well, maybe more than slightly, for those
|more prolific writers among us :) ), but it'd let us see what our
|messages looked like, and take steps to correct things if there were
|problems.

It's not that simple.
1> The list is configurable. But the user sets it the way HE wants.
(If you want to see duplicates of your own posts, send a command message
listserv with

set shadowrn repro
)

2> Even *IF* he's receiving his own mail, chances are, the mailer that sent
it will also be able to display it without any problem.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:27:32 +0100
And verily, did Sean McCrohan hastily scribble thusly...
| My point, however, was that if that was the default behavior,
|new list members whose messages weren't getting through (such as
|our friend with the MIME problem) would find out immediately, rather
|than having to be told. If you don't KNOW you have a problem, you're
|not likely to go looking for ways to solve it.

I thought it *WAS* the default setting. It was when I joined anyway.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 9
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:29:19 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:45 PM 9/22/98 -0400, Sean wrote:
> My point, however, was that if that was the default behavior,
>new list members whose messages weren't getting through (such as
>our friend with the MIME problem) would find out immediately, rather
>than having to be told. If you don't KNOW you have a problem, you're
>not likely to go looking for ways to solve it.

Have you considered the possibility that the format that
Our-Friend-with-the-MIME-Problem's mailer is sending out is perfectly
readable to that same mailer? He could be set to recieve his own
posts, right at this very moment, and not even know there's a problem,
because his mailer is corectly interperting the crap he's sending out.

This was the same problem that we had a while back with someone who
had a ASCII art snake in their .sig... the snake was draw with the "#"
symbol, but for some odd reason, half the mailers out there read each
# as an odd control character, which ended up making the .sig several
pages long. However to his own mailer, the .sig looked just fine.

Anyway, we have GridSec to handle this sort of problem, and I
understand they're in the process of taking care of the problem. One
thing I've always wondered though: why isn't there some kind of weekly
GridSec update, where they list all the problems that have come to
their attention and that they've taken care of.

Under their current mode of operations, they take care of the problem
by direct mailing the source. This usually solves it, but it's a
wholely invisible process. We have no way of knowing if GridSec is
even aware of a particular annoyance, let alone if they've taken steps
to solve it. So, when a problem does crop up, or several at once,
people get the urge to THWAP away, because there's no evidence that
GridSec is at work. I think a weekly report (with say, listings of: OT
threads killed, mailer problems pointed out, posting guideline
reminders sent out) would go a long way twoards killing the thwap
instinct.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:11:33 -0500
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 3:26 PM

>|My point, however, was that if that was the default behavior....
>
>I thought it *WAS* the default setting. It was when I joined anyway.

Nope. If you'll recall, our troubles when I first joined the list stemmed
from the fact that there was no repro of my messages.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:13:28 +0200
According to Paul Gettle, at 21:29 on 22 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> One thing I've always wondered though: why isn't there some kind of weekly
> GridSec update, where they list all the problems that have come to
> their attention and that they've taken care of.

Maybe because that would require us to do a lot of bookkeeping, and I
don't know about the others, but that's not my strong side... We've just
about managed to organize ourselves to such a degree that we know when
someone else has handled something (by CC:ing the other GridSec members)
and even that can go slightly wrong at times -- case in point, my post to
the list last night: a few seconds after I sent that out, I hit "Check new
mail" and see that David has already emailed the person through private
email...

> Under their current mode of operations, they take care of the problem
> by direct mailing the source. This usually solves it, but it's a
> wholely invisible process. We have no way of knowing if GridSec is
> even aware of a particular annoyance, let alone if they've taken steps
> to solve it. So, when a problem does crop up, or several at once,
> people get the urge to THWAP away, because there's no evidence that
> GridSec is at work. I think a weekly report (with say, listings of: OT
> threads killed, mailer problems pointed out, posting guideline
> reminders sent out) would go a long way twoards killing the thwap
> instinct.

I doubt it, because those thins come _after_ the fact. If we were to post
this every Saturday, for example, then if something happens on Monday
it'll still be the best part of a week before you get to see the result of
our actions. Which might lead to the conclusion we're not doing anything,
and thus people taking action on their own instead of leaving it to us.

--
Gurth@******.nl, ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srnintro.html
The NERPS FAQ: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html#nerps
Other GridSec members: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
Dvixen <dvixen@********.com>
Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.net>
List Administrator: Adam Jury <fro@***.ab.ca>
List Owner: Mark Imbriaco <mark.imbriaco@*****.com>
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [OT] MIME / List distribution
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:16:39 -0600
While doing the Fandango, Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Paul Gettle, at 21:29 on 22 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
/
/ > One thing I've always wondered though: why isn't there some kind of weekly
/ > GridSec update, where they list all the problems that have come to
/ > their attention and that they've taken care of.
/
/ Maybe because that would require us to do a lot of bookkeeping, and I
/ don't know about the others, but that's not my strong side...

Ditto that. It's not that I couldn't do it, but I really don't want
to. Between my job, personal life, and ShadowRN GridSec duties, I'm
busy enough as it is. And AFAIK, the other members of GridSec are just
as busy.

/ We've just
/ about managed to organize ourselves to such a degree that we know when
/ someone else has handled something (by CC:ing the other GridSec members)
/ and even that can go slightly wrong at times -- case in point, my post to
/ the list last night: a few seconds after I sent that out, I hit "Check new
/ mail" and see that David has already emailed the person through private
/ email...

:) And then there was the person that got posts from three of us at the
same time.

/ > Under their current mode of operations, they take care of the problem
/ > by direct mailing the source. This usually solves it, but it's a
/ > wholely invisible process.

Which was one of the reasons GridSec was created, to take problems off
the list. Before GridSec you could count on about ten responsive posts
whenever a problem occured (because of delays in the internet and how
people read and reply to their mail).

/ > We have no way of knowing if GridSec is
/ > even aware of a particular annoyance, let alone if they've taken steps
/ > to solve it.

Ya gotta have faith :)

/ > I think a weekly report (with say, listings of: OT
/ > threads killed, mailer problems pointed out, posting guideline
/ > reminders sent out) would go a long way twoards killing the thwap
/ > instinct.
/
/ I doubt it, because those thins come _after_ the fact. If we were to post
/ this every Saturday, for example, then if something happens on Monday
/ it'll still be the best part of a week before you get to see the result of
/ our actions. Which might lead to the conclusion we're not doing anything,
/ and thus people taking action on their own instead of leaving it to us.

Again, ditto.

Here's my advice. If a newbie or a twonk is continuing to cause a
problem for more than 24 hours, send a message to the list asking if
GridSec is on the case. (FYI, in the past problems have lasted longer
than 24 hours when the person with the problem was having a hard time
resetting the options on their mailer, or with people new to the
internet.) If you don't get a reply from us within 12 hours, you can
then assume that we've fallen asleep on the job and you are more than
welcome to address the problem yourself, IMO.

Have fun,
Play nice,
-David, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)
--
dbuehrer@******.carl.org, ShadowRN GridSec: Nice Guy Division
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srnintro.html
Other GridSec members: Dvixen <dvixen@********.com>
Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.net>
List Administrator: Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com>
List Owner: Mark Imbriaco <mark.imbriaco@*****.com>

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!