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Message no. 1
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:22:50 +1000
Geoff (?) wrote:

> So I ask you, do you
>truly believe that there is a conclave of powerful white men who spend their
>time looking for ways to screw over minorities. I'm sorry, that's what it
>sounds like.

you'd be suprised.

there is this thing called the 'white male norm', and its the basis of the
power of middle-to-upper white males.

i'm going to give you two emotive examples of what i'm talking about. yes,
they're law examples, but i'm a law student and most of my work/research
with the issues of power are to do specifically with jurisprudence. and,
besides, law is the source of a lot of power... what goes on in the courts
does have quite a huge impact.


1.
the Rodney King trial. remember that? did you see the make-up of the Jury?
all white. Why? Because Blacks Can't Be Trusted. Because White People Are
Rational, Free-of-Prejudice, They Will Decide Justly.

2.
Rape trials. The majority of the jury are male. Why? Because women can't be
trusted to be rational, to be fair, to be just - they will side with the
woman automatically - the male won't.




it is not a conscious thing, it a subconscious thing - but it effectively
comes across as a conclave of powerful white men. there are billions of
other examples across many fields... but i shan't bother.


deprogram.


on the Shadowrun side of things, 'human' would undoubtedly be the norm in
places like UCAS and CFS, where as elf would be the norm in the two Tirs
etc. etc. Further analysis of normative contstruction (jurisgensis if you
wish to use Robert Cover's term) could yield interesting applications for
Shadowrun Campaign design. Hmm.
Message no. 2
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:11:56 -0500
I snipped everything, because frankly, I'm becoming embarrassed for the lot
of you.

Jesus Christ, guys, GIVE IT UP! Please!! This has got *NOTHING* to do with
Shadowrun, and it's doing nothing but throwing invectives back and forth. I
don't know why it wasn't jumped on earlier, and I don't care, but as a
member of the list, I'd really like to have some actual Shadowrun content
turn up in my mailbox again real soon.

Patrick
Message no. 3
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:21:08 -0400
Stuart M. Willis [mailto:hbiki@****.geocities.com]
> i'm going to give you two emotive examples of what i'm
> talking about. yes,
> they're law examples, but i'm a law student and most of my
[snip jury-composition examples]

OK, I don't know a whole lot about the US legal system, and I only
have a lay knowledge of the Canadian one, but in Canada, the jury
isn't chosen by some cabal in a locked room somewhere. When called
for jury duty, everybody sits down and waits for their name to be
called. When one of the jury-selecting cases requires a jury member,
they call the next (essentially random) name on the list.

The lawyers *on both sides* get to interview the individual. If
they agree to accept them, they're in and they call the next
candidate. If they agree that they're obviously biased, they
reject the candidate.

Both sides get a limited number of arbitrary unilateral rejections
("He has shifty eyes and I don't like the colour of his dress! Out!").

This means that for a jury to end up with an obvious bias is difficult
to arrange (the right people need to be called at the right time and
enough of them have to be called to exhaust the unilateral rejections
and they have to be subtle enough that one side can reasonably argue
that they're unbiased). In short, if a jury is all-male or all-white,
it's because the lawyers agreed on such a composition (or pure, blind
chance).

To my recollection, lawyers actually end up studying stats a fair
amount to try and predict the decision despite any lack of obvious
bias ("In rape trials, X% of women find against the defendant").
(I originally wrote a number in there, but pulled it in case somebody
thought to actually deluge me with stats again)

In short, both lawyers try to stack the jury in their favour with as
much subtlety as possible. All male or all white isn't exactly subtle;
maybe they had a reason for it?

James Ojaste
Message no. 4
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:32:06 CST
>you'd be suprised.

You are right I would be surprised. I think you missed the point of the
sarcasm. The post I responded to sounded (to me at least) that most whiter
males sat around a la "The Group" in X-files, plotting how to control and
belittle the minorites. I don't doubt that their may be an UNCONSCIOUS
effort, on some peoples part to keep minorities of all shapes and sizes
down, but I highly doubt that it is an active conspiracy.

>
>there is this thing called the 'white male norm', and its the basis of the
>power of middle-to-upper white males.
>
>i'm going to give you two emotive examples of what i'm talking about. yes,
>they're law examples, but i'm a law student and most of my work/research

That's alright, I'm a chemistry student! I won't hold being a lawyer againt
you! :)

>
>
>1.
>the Rodney King trial. remember that? did you see the make-up of the Jury?
>all white. Why? Because Blacks Can't Be Trusted. Because White People Are
>Rational, Free-of-Prejudice, They Will Decide Justly.
>

I dunno, from the shows I have seen on the trial, I thought that the defense
had moved for a change of venue (mind you, it's been a while and I was a
little young then). The defence wanted what was best for their client(s).
An all-white jury wouold have been preferable to them. I think the
prosecution dropped the ball on that.

>2.
>Rape trials. The majority of the jury are male. Why? Because women can't be
>trusted to be rational, to be fair, to be just - they will side with the
>woman automatically - the male won't.
>

That is some faulty reasonoing on their part then. All the guys I know
would be prejudiced AGAINST the defendant. Most guys I know think rape is
really, really bad (words can't describe the emotions involved there).

>
>it is not a conscious thing, it a subconscious thing - but it effectively
>comes across as a conclave of powerful white men. there are billions of
>other examples across many fields... but i shan't bother.

Still, your average guy, I think, tries to be fair and equal.


>on the Shadowrun side of things, 'human' would undoubtedly be the norm in
>places like UCAS and CFS, where as elf would be the norm in the two Tirs
>etc. etc. Further analysis of normative contstruction (jurisgensis if you
>wish to use Robert Cover's term) could yield interesting applications for
>Shadowrun Campaign design. Hmm.
>


Yeah! The best use of the idea of prejudice in a Shadowrun product I
have seen was in Cyberpirates. There was a nation of troll who believed
they were blessed by the gods (or some such). They booted all the elved,
human, dwarves, etc. out and used the orks as more or less slave labour. I
thought that was a different spin on it.



Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:49:02 -0500
> I snipped everything, because frankly, I'm becoming embarrassed for the
> lot
> of you.
>
> Jesus Christ, guys, GIVE IT UP! Please!! This has got *NOTHING* to do
> with
> Shadowrun, and it's doing nothing but throwing invectives back and forth.
> I
> don't know why it wasn't jumped on earlier, and I don't care, but as a
> member of the list, I'd really like to have some actual Shadowrun content
> turn up in my mailbox again real soon.
>
> Patrick
>
Hear hear. I have never considered myself racist but at this point I don't
care if I am. I have lost all respect for my fellow humanity. Talk about
Shadowrun or talk about unsubscribing.
Message no. 6
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:19:09 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/99 8:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> Jesus Christ, guys, GIVE IT UP! Please!! This has got *NOTHING* to do with
> Shadowrun, and it's doing nothing but throwing invectives back and forth.
I
> don't know why it wasn't jumped on earlier, and I don't care, but as a
> member of the list, I'd really like to have some actual Shadowrun content
> turn up in my mailbox again real soon.
>
> Patrick

As one of our GRIDSEC folks said, it _is_ relevant to shadowrun.

Try being an Ork, when your GM plays the prejudice-against-metahumans angle
_ruthlessly_ ...

Trust me, this ALL becomes relevant in that light. Whatever gains were made
inthe SR-alternate 90's and 20-01's ... were LOST when metatypes emerged.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 7
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:29:56 -0500
> In a message dated 5/20/99 8:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
> writes:
>
> > Jesus Christ, guys, GIVE IT UP! Please!! This has got *NOTHING* to do
> with
> > Shadowrun, and it's doing nothing but throwing invectives back and
> forth.
> I
> > don't know why it wasn't jumped on earlier, and I don't care, but as a
> > member of the list, I'd really like to have some actual Shadowrun
> content
> > turn up in my mailbox again real soon.
> >
> > Patrick
>
> As one of our GRIDSEC folks said, it _is_ relevant to shadowrun.
>
> Try being an Ork, when your GM plays the prejudice-against-metahumans
> angle
> _ruthlessly_ ...
>
> Trust me, this ALL becomes relevant in that light. Whatever gains were
> made
> inthe SR-alternate 90's and 20-01's ... were LOST when metatypes emerged.
>
Well then talk about Orks for gods sake.
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:27:39 -0700
>>it is not a conscious thing, it a subconscious thing - but it effectively
>>comes across as a conclave of powerful white men. there are billions of
>>other examples across many fields... but i shan't bother.
>
>Still, your average guy, I think, tries to be fair and equal.

This is what I'm talking about. Excuses are made, and every other reason
but racism is considered. I do not think that the converse is true, namely,
every case of prejudice involves racism, but my eyes are open to the
possibility.

This is the way most people rationalize racism away: "I'm not racist, I
don't have prejudices, and those minorities see *everything* as a
conspiracy against them." When I meet people and it comes up, I try to
*gently* point out their prejudices to them, especially when they're
children. Having done that, however, I tend to have less tolerance for
people that deny, apologize, ignore, or espouse it.

>Geoff Haacke
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 9
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:30:37 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/99 5:34:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, markf@******.com
writes:

> Well then talk about Orks for gods sake.

Alternate idea: if you don't want to read it, delete it unread.

I do that a lot, with threads that just don't interest me.

I don't see what the problem is, really. Sorry! :-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 10
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:02:08 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/99 7:27:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.edu writes:

> This is the way most people rationalize racism away: "I'm not racist, I
> don't have prejudices, and those minorities see *everything* as a
> conspiracy against them." When I meet people and it comes up, I try to
> *gently* point out their prejudices to them, especially when they're
> children. Having done that, however, I tend to have less tolerance for
> people that deny, apologize, ignore, or espouse it.

Mr. Getchell, your pointing out of things has hardly fit _my_ definition of
"gentle" ... and I have not said, myself, "those minorities see
*everything*
as a conspiracy against them."

I have said that, as I am able to see it, *you* see conspiracies everywhere.

There's a long way between pointing my finger at *you* ... and individual
(which I am indeed doing), and pointing that same finger at an entire
ethnic/racial GROUP (minority or otherwise).

And saying "I think most guys try to be fair and average" ... how in the blue
bloody BLAZES is that "deny[ing], apologize[ing], ignore[ing], or
espouse[ing]" racism, ethnicism, or other forms of prejudice?

Peple have claimed that a significant PORTION (not all, not even most, just a
significant portion or fraction) of prejudicial acts are in fact born of
ignorance and/or misinformation. Sometimes because they never CONSIDERED
what certain acts, situations, etc, might be like for OTHERS.

Case in point: I included a description of the problems my weight gives my in
society, and Allen Versfeld (moe@*******.com) replied (in part):

" <whole new viewpoint which skinny old me never even considered before
now snipped> "

Hmm. That would tend to support _my_ usual conclusion: not that McDonalds,
Burger King, or the local Italian ( or other ethnic food ;-)) place is
_conspiring_ against people who are above the "normal weight" ... but rather,
they often don't THINK. They have their equally-slim friend(s) help them do
the layout. They use ergonomic models based on slimmer people when they
design their dining rooms, place their chairs and benches ...

I.E. ignorance and misinformation, coupled with other factors simply not
_occurring_ to them.

I've had harried, overworked managers respond with true, heartfelt apologies
when I courteously asked if they could pass on a suggestion to the
restaurant's owners (corporate or other) for roomier seating here and there,
to accomodate the overwieght.

Or PREGNANT for that matter. That's another group with a need for extra
belly-room, and space to maneuver in.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 11
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:06:08 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark Fender."
] > I snipped everything, because frankly, I'm becoming embarrassed for the
] > lot
] > of you.
] >
] > Jesus Christ, guys, GIVE IT UP! Please!! This has got *NOTHING* to do
] > with
] > Shadowrun, and it's doing nothing but throwing invectives back and forth.
] > I
] > don't know why it wasn't jumped on earlier, and I don't care, but as a
] > member of the list, I'd really like to have some actual Shadowrun content
] > turn up in my mailbox again real soon.
] >
] > Patrick
] >
] Hear hear. I have never considered myself racist but at this point I don't
] care if I am. I have lost all respect for my fellow humanity. Talk about
] Shadowrun or talk about unsubscribing.

You got a delete button? Use it. Nobody's forcing you to read these
threads. Discussion like this is important. A lot of people aren't
exposed to this kind of thing in their daily life, and this could be an
eye-opener for them, and plenty informative.

-Murder of One
Message no. 12
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:26:05 -0500
CAUTION: I'm ranting a little here, and there's a good chance that some
coarse language is going to figure into it. If this might offend you, leave
now.

> > Jesus Christ, guys, GIVE IT UP! Please!! This has got *NOTHING* to
> > do with Shadowrun, and it's doing nothing but throwing invectives back
> > and forth. I don't know why it wasn't jumped on earlier, and I don't
> > care, but as a member of the list, I'd really like to have some actual
> > Shadowrun content turn up in my mailbox again real soon.
>
> As one of our GRIDSEC folks said, it _is_ relevant to shadowrun.

Bullshit. When the conversation *started*, before even the *participants*
said it was OT, it might have had something to do with the game, trying to
educate people on how to play orks and trolls in human society. The
conversation as it exists now is a more-persecuted-than-thou contest with
everyone thinking that their background entitles them to more sympathy than
anyone else.

And I've fucking had it with the whole thing. It doesn't help that one of
the participants is a member of GridSec, as I see it.

> Try being an Ork, when your GM plays the prejudice-against-metahumans
angle
> _ruthlessly_ ...

Been there, done that. And frankly, if that starts to become the point of
the game, I walk. I play Shadowrun to enjoy myself, and this sort of thing
doesn't lend itself to that enjoyment.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 13
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:42:56 -0700
At 05:19 PM 20/05/99 , GMPax@***.com annoyed me by writing:
>As one of our GRIDSEC folks said, it _is_ relevant to shadowrun.

[GRIDSEC]
Actually, he said he was letting it run unchecked. He's new to the stomping
out of OT threads, and his Bad Cop badge is locked away until he learns
better. *veg*

As I have already stated, these threads are to now to be discussed in
Shadowrun terms, or taken off the list.
{/GRIDSEC]



--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com - ShadowRN GridSec Consulatant (100¥/hr)
Of course I know where the bodies are buried! I've got the FSH!
ShadowRN FAQ - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Keeper of the Rabid Woodchuck - Blue Moon Pesterer of The DLOH
Message no. 14
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:57:37 CST
>Try being an Ork, when your GM plays the prejudice-against-metahumans angle
>_ruthlessly_ ...

Or as insight into the character of say, an ork activist or troll Son of
Sauron (as an extreme case).

>
>Trust me, this ALL becomes relevant in that light. Whatever gains were
>made
>inthe SR-alternate 90's and 20-01's ... were LOST when metatypes emerged.
>
>Sean
>GM Pax



Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 15
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:09:00 CST
>Well then talk about Orks for gods sake.


Umm, do you know what it's like to be an ork? I don't. (Although I'm tols
I'm almost big enough :)). However, a good way to extrapolate their
situation is to talk with a member of a minority and get their
ideas/info/experiences. If you try to make it up in your head, it'll be
easy to mess up on the details, and I've always thought that details were
important. (Hey to get a handle on a Zen/Toaist physad, I read up on both
religions and philosophies.)


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Message no. 16
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:09:06 CST
>Well then talk about Orks for gods sake.


Umm, do you know what it's like to be an ork? I don't. (Although I'm tols
I'm almost big enough :)). However, a good way to extrapolate their
situation is to talk with a member of a minority and get their
ideas/info/experiences. If you try to make it up in your head, it'll be
easy to mess up on the details, and I've always thought that details were
important. (Hey to get a handle on a Zen/Toaist physad, I read up on both
religions and philosophies.)



Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 17
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:39:48 CST
>This is what I'm talking about. Excuses are made, and every other reason
>but racism is considered. I do not think that the converse is true, namely,
>every case of prejudice involves racism, but my eyes are open to the
>possibility.
>

Excuse me! I have in these postings (appanrently to the annoyance of some
:)) tried to explain my point that it isn't always about race. Mopre often,
it is due to a persons socioeconomic standing. As I have said (a few times)
it is an unfortunate fact that there are a lot of minorities in that
standing. There are also a lot of "Anglos" (which you still havent defined
BTW) in that same grouping. I should know, I was one of them. Now the
police have a profile of a typical offender, and let me tell you friend,
that there was no mention of race period! Now admittedly, there is a
difference between the US and Canadian police, but on that score they are
probably pretty close to the same. Now some INDIVIDUAL officers may
interprete this profile to fit their own misconceptions but the majority DO
NOT. There is a little racism in the RCMP and other agencies, but that is
from a few isolated officers. The majority of folk get into police work to
hel;p people. it certainly isn't for the money.

>This is the way most people rationalize racism away: "I'm not racist, I
>don't have prejudices, and those minorities see *everything* as a
>conspiracy against them." When I meet people and it comes up, I try to
>*gently* point out their prejudices to them, especially when they're
>children. Having done that, however, I tend to have less tolerance for
>people that deny, apologize, ignore, or espouse it.
>

I have never denied that I have prejudice, but I DO try to limit it. If
that's apology then so be it, but at least I try to stop it. I do not
ignore it, but I do realize that it is not as common as it once was.

>--Adam
>
>acgetchell@*******.edu
>"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
>
>




Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 18
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: [OT] Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:36:27 +1000
>From: "Geoffrey Haacke" <knight_errant30@*******.com>
>To: shadowrn@*********.org
>Subject: Re: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
>Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:32:06 CST
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.org
>
>>you'd be suprised.
>
> You are right I would be surprised. I think you missed the point of the
>sarcasm. The post I responded to sounded (to me at least) that most whiter
>males sat around a la "The Group" in X-files, plotting how to control and
>belittle the minorites. I don't doubt that their may be an UNCONSCIOUS
>effort, on some peoples part to keep minorities of all shapes and sizes
>down, but I highly doubt that it is an active conspiracy.

i think it sits somewhere between unconscious and conscious in the sense
that i described previously, regarding jury construction.


>That's alright, I'm a chemistry student! I won't hold being a lawyer againt
>you! :)

Don't worry, I hold being a law student against me. When I cut my hair (I
had waist-length hair, now its around 1-2 inches long) I dyed it
specifically so I wouldn't look like the usual law student. Y'know, the
ones that have got summer work with daddy's little law form, drive BMWs,
complain that all the arts students have it too easy and that all the
lecturers are communists, and generally come from a privelege family - and
reap the rews of that privelege without even considering the fact that they
have been priveleged. believe me, i see it almost every day and it pissed
me right off. <-- this actually relates to what i've been saying about the
culture of the law, and how that reinforces certain norms. the norms are
almost living, they consciously get together in rooms and plot how they're
going to stay alive. they're like memes, but with sharp teeth.

[i may have been public school educated, work my arse off in summer, drive
a 21 year old car, and do an arts degree - well, media, but it used to be
arts - but i realise that i have been very lucky, and i wish i could help
others been just as lucky.]

>>1.
>>the Rodney King trial. remember that? did you see the make-up of the Jury?
>>all white. Why? Because Blacks Can't Be Trusted. Because White People Are
>>Rational, Free-of-Prejudice, They Will Decide Justly.
>>
>
>I dunno, from the shows I have seen on the trial, I thought that the defense
>had moved for a change of venue (mind you, it's been a while and I was a
>little young then). The defence wanted what was best for their client(s).

Sure. But when what they want is itself unjust, how can you claim that the
system is one of justice?

("But Justice is Irrelevant" -- Law student overhead in a law class about a
month ago. [sigh])


>Still, your average guy, I think, tries to be fair and equal.

Oh. For sure. I think that a lot of disservice can be done when others
visciously attack people for being prejudiced/discriminatory when those
people probably try their best to be as far and equal as they know how.
Problem is really one of culture. Our concepts of 'fair and equal' are
constructions of the normative world we live in.


> Yeah! The best use of the idea of prejudice in a Shadowrun product I
>have seen was in Cyberpirates. There was a nation of troll who believed
>they were blessed by the gods (or some such). They booted all the elved,
>human, dwarves, etc. out and used the orks as more or less slave labour. I
>thought that was a different spin on it.

Yeah? Awesome. That's interesting, considering that the Orks (or was it
Trolls?) were the slaves for pretty much everyone in EarthDawn. Hmm.

In fact, I have a NPC Rigger for the campaign that I current 'run' (we
haven't played in about 3 months :-)) whose a Dwarf. She don't like Elves
much, in fact she down right hates them (I did tie in some ED stuff there,
but only to justify a 'culture' of racism). Thing is, most of the team
happen to be Elves (they usually play elves, cause they figure everyone
loves elves.. well hates them less than other races).

I also remember one campaign where I played a Troll (I actually gave him
cosmetic surgery to make him look less troll-like, ie more like a huge ork
than Troll.. but most people picked he was a Troll). We went to Israel for
a mission. I was stopped at Customs. I thought it was for my Cyberware, and
started pulling out permits and complaining. They looked me up. Turns out
they didn't like Trolls. It was a (nice) shock. Because I was use to
playing Humans, I really never considered the racial implications of
playing a Troll. A Troll is going to be raised inside of a certain culture
with certain ideas of how a Troll is going to be (ie Violent, Stupid, Ugly,
Worthless [if those ideas are constructed in the negative]) - both in terms
of a culture constructed by the Trolls themslves (or wherever the Troll was
raised) and a wider culture, dominated [logically] by the majority/powerful
(ie humans). That Troll may try the best they can to be free of prejudice,
but they may hold certain 'instinctive' prejudices against, say, Elves -
cause one day an Elf picked on him. A Human raised amongst Trolls may be
raised in a culture where humans are mistrusted, and so sHe mistrusts
humans.

There are unlimited possiblities, really... and its a great thing to
explore in role-playing.

Anyways, I should get back to my law essay :( (I'm really just
procrastinating).


NP: Doubting Thomas: Father Don't Cry

care,

s.


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Message no. 19
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:36:37 -0500
> In a message dated 5/20/99 5:34:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> markf@******.com
> writes:
>
> > Well then talk about Orks for gods sake.
>
> Alternate idea: if you don't want to read it, delete it unread.
>
> I do that a lot, with threads that just don't interest me.
>
> I don't see what the problem is, really. Sorry! :-)
>
Because I don't feel that I should have to delete twenty five page missives
every day to ignore a thread that has nothing to do with SR. It's one thing
to ignore the inevitable gun discussions, but it's quite another to ignore a
discussion involving approx. three people that is taking up way too much
space in my mailbox. And I'm not sorry.
Message no. 20
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:07:16 CST
CAUTION: I'm going to use nice language myself, since I'm in a good mood.
:-)

>Bullshit. When the conversation *started*, before even the *participants*
>said it was OT, it might have had something to do with the game, trying to
>educate people on how to play orks and trolls in human society. The
>conversation as it exists now is a more-persecuted-than-thou contest with
>everyone thinking that their background entitles them to more sympathy than
>anyone else.

Actually, this does rather reflect racial tensions in the US, IMO. The
impression that I got from the source material is that the UCAS is a lot
like it was in the 1960's. With activists and extremists on both sides.
Now, I don't know about you but my experiences with racism have not been
extensive. Now, say I want to play a troll who truly believes that all
elves are out to "keep the trogs down". I want to play him accurately (call
me a perfectionest). Now, should I be arrogant enough to say that I know
everything about racism from my limited experience? I hope not, I don't
know everything (yet :) ). I find thast a discussion like the one with Mr.
Gretchell will help me flesh out the character.

>
>And I've fucking had it with the whole thing. It doesn't help that one of
>the participants is a member of GridSec, as I see it.
>

If GRIDSEC is responsible for the smooth flowing of the list (as is my
opinion), and they haven't stopped it, then they may believe it still has
some value (now). Later, who knows?

>Been there, done that. And frankly, if that starts to become the point of
>the game, I walk. I play Shadowrun to enjoy myself, and this sort of thing
>doesn't lend itself to that enjoyment.

Different people play the different styles of the game. Look on the Net.
There are quite a few sites devoted to their campaigns. Each campaign has
its own flavour. Just because you don't enjoy that type of game, doesn't
mean someone else doesn't.

>
>--
>(>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
>




Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



______________________________________________________
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Message no. 21
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: [OT] Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:12:12 -0500
> > Yeah! The best use of the idea of prejudice in a Shadowrun product I
> >have seen was in Cyberpirates. There was a nation of troll who believed
> >they were blessed by the gods (or some such). They booted all the elved,
> >human, dwarves, etc. out and used the orks as more or less slave labour.
> I
> >thought that was a different spin on it.
>
> Yeah? Awesome. That's interesting, considering that the Orks (or was it
> Trolls?) were the slaves for pretty much everyone in EarthDawn. Hmm.
>
> In fact, I have a NPC Rigger for the campaign that I current 'run' (we
> haven't played in about 3 months :-)) whose a Dwarf. She don't like Elves
> much, in fact she down right hates them (I did tie in some ED stuff there,
> but only to justify a 'culture' of racism). Thing is, most of the team
> happen to be Elves (they usually play elves, cause they figure everyone
> loves elves.. well hates them less than other races).
>
> I also remember one campaign where I played a Troll (I actually gave him
> cosmetic surgery to make him look less troll-like, ie more like a huge ork
> than Troll.. but most people picked he was a Troll). We went to Israel for
> a mission. I was stopped at Customs. I thought it was for my Cyberware,
> and
> started pulling out permits and complaining. They looked me up. Turns out
> they didn't like Trolls. It was a (nice) shock. Because I was use to
> playing Humans, I really never considered the racial implications of
> playing a Troll. A Troll is going to be raised inside of a certain culture
> with certain ideas of how a Troll is going to be (ie Violent, Stupid,
> Ugly,
> Worthless [if those ideas are constructed in the negative]) - both in
> terms
> of a culture constructed by the Trolls themslves (or wherever the Troll
> was
> raised) and a wider culture, dominated [logically] by the
> majority/powerful
> (ie humans). That Troll may try the best they can to be free of prejudice,
> but they may hold certain 'instinctive' prejudices against, say, Elves -
> cause one day an Elf picked on him. A Human raised amongst Trolls may be
> raised in a culture where humans are mistrusted, and so sHe mistrusts
> humans.
>
> There are unlimited possiblities, really... and its a great thing to
> explore in role-playing.
>
I tend to reenofrce the racism a little less notiecably. For instance, Mr.
Johnson won't shake the Orks hand, or will grab the credstick from the
Troll, and then wipe his hands. Subtle, but it still burns 'em. . .
Message no. 22
From: Josh grimlakin@****.com
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:11:32 -0500
Mark Fender wrote:

<snip>

> Because I don't feel that I should have to delete twenty five page missives
> every day to ignore a thread that has nothing to do with SR. It's one thing
> to ignore the inevitable gun discussions, but it's quite another to ignore a
> discussion involving approx. three people that is taking up way too much
> space in my mailbox. And I'm not sorry.

As one of the offending three I mus say.. WAH!!! <in the best of humor of
course.>
Message no. 23
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: [OT]: Racism, et hoc genus omne.
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:43:38 -0500
> ] Hear hear. I have never considered myself racist but at this point I
> ] don't care if I am. I have lost all respect for my fellow humanity.
> ] Talk about Shadowrun or talk about unsubscribing.
>
> You got a delete button? Use it. Nobody's forcing you to read these
> threads. Discussion like this is important. A lot of people aren't
> exposed to this kind of thing in their daily life, and this could be an
> eye-opener for them, and plenty informative.

Then they should take it to private email, Scott. The point of this group
is to discuss the game and certain surrounding issues, which discussions
like this have nothing to do with. You want to discuss social theory, go to
those newsgroups or go to private mail. You should *always* do this with
threads that aren't related to a lists topic.

And just to be fair, I'm as guilty as the next guy of not doing this all the
time. But I try. I wish more people would, though.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

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