Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] RE: Metallica (was SR4 FAQ part4)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:26:43 +0100
At 04:22 PM 4/18/2005, you wrote:
>Thank you for illustrating my original point. I was not suggesting
>that Metallica's musical direction was good or bad, but that long
>time fans felt marginalized in Metallica's shift of artistic
>direction. SR4 may be more statistically sound, easier for newbies
>to learn, more mechanically streamlined, blah blah blah... but, if it
>is no longer Shadowrun to its long time fans, those fans are going to
>be unhappy. Furthermore, sweeping changes in the transition from SR3
>to SR4 beg the question: How much farther will SR5 diverge? "And
>Justice For All" to "Metallica" to "Load" represents a linear
erosion
>of all that Metallica was to its fans. Each step away from their
>roots, for whatever reason, diluted the essence of what their fans
>loved.

I would disagree - partly.
"Metallica" was IMHO the natural culmination of the growth of the band's
musical proficiency and confidence which first became noticeable (to my
mind) in certain aspects of "Master of Puppets".
It became less important for them to out-volume and out-speed the
"Hairspray and eyeliner rockers" they had originally set themselves against
and more important that the music develop.
Within my sphere of observation at least "Metallica" helped the sales of
all of the previous albums tremendously, it was musically accomplished
enough to attract a new group of fans who had gone no further than Rage
Against the Machine previously and introduced them to true metal, at which
point they fell upon it like piranha on... well almost anything...
"Load" however took the idea too far; as if , like Samson, their power and
credibility vanished with their hair. More people (again within my sphere
of observation) left Metallica behind after "Load" than came to them after
"Metallica" - maybe we all just got too old for teenage angst...


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d++(---) s++: a->? C++(+) US++ P! L E? W++ N o? K? w+ O! M- V? PS+ PE-()
Y PGP? t+@ 5++ X- R+>+++$>* tv b+++ DI++++ D+ G++ e+ h r* y+>+++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--) m- w
s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+
Message no. 2
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: [OT] RE: Metallica (was SR4 FAQ part4)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:32:53 -0500
Lone Eagle wrote:
> "Load" however took the idea too far; as if , like Samson, their power
> and credibility vanished with their hair. More people (again within my
> sphere of observation) left Metallica behind after "Load" than came to
> them after "Metallica" - maybe we all just got too old for teenage angst...

Load/Reload was essntially Metallica's Use Your Illusion 1&2. You can
make a decent album by combining songs from both albums, but to have two
meant there was a lot of crap that should have been flushed away.

"Metallica" or The Black Album was too... simple and radio friendly
compared to some of the previous albums. It had some good music, but
some bad.

Every Metallica album has one or two songs that aren't on a par with the
rest of the album, except maybe Kill 'em All. Going on any further would
be a rant that isn't really belonging here anyway.
Message no. 3
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: [OT] RE: Metallica (was SR4 FAQ part4)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
> More people (again within my sphere of observation) left Metallica
> behind after "Load" than came to them after "Metallica" - maybe
we
> all just got too old for teenage angst...

I am not sure how rabid the fanbase of a given band gets across the
pond, but I watched a lot of Metallica fans stagger about in apoplexy
at "Enter Sandman", decrying it as the beginning of the end. That
their beloved band had gone "Top 40 Metal" and released something so
trite and mass-audience targeted was unthinkable (this opinion is not
limited to Metallica, most dedicated fan-bases freak out when "their"
band goes mainstream). Yes, Metallica's self titled 'Black' album
was musically pleasing. However, ask an older Metallica fan where
things went wrong, and they will usually point to the Black album as
the turning point. It was close enough to "true" Metallica to be
palatable, but began the band's divergence from their roots and led
to Load... and eventually to St. Anger (insert sounds of gagging
here).

To keep this vaguely on topic, I was using this process as an analogy
for what I anticipate will happen with SR4. After three editions
that steadily matured the game (not the setting), clarifying and
honing the mechanics, there are hints of abandoning those roots
altogether. It may be that SR4 is close enough to SR1-3 that the
current fanbase will grudgingly go along with the changes. However,
there is never any going back from a change like this. From the
release of SR4 onward, I believe we will see the game steadily
diverge from its (mechanical) roots, and do so relatively quickly.

There is a very good chance that this change will be econimcally good
for Shadowrun. The process happens so often, across so many
different industries, that such changes are even perhaps inevitable.
And I realize that I am being a curmudgeon, annoyed that my
'underground band is going mainstream', if you will. None of these
points alters the basic truth that once a product (music, game, etc)
gets far enough from its roots to alienate its core (read: old and
curmudgeony) fanbase, it is living on borrowed time. New fans are
fickle. They have a short attention span. Loyalty to a product is
almost always built over time.

I'd rather buy my entire library of SR 1 & 2 books over again,
re-released compliant to SR3 mechanics. I'd rather see the timeline
fleshed out ~backwards~ a bit, increasing the overall scope (depth
and breadth) of Shadowrun's source materials. I'd rather hear a
second "Master of Puppets" than a first "Load". I doubt I am alone.

I am also not the majority. :) SR4 proceeds, for better or worse.
And in the end, I will be fine with that. I just want to be certain
that when I post "I told you so", no one asks what I mean... *evil
grin*

======Korishinzo
--heads off to run Earthdawn :p




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
Message no. 4
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] RE: Metallica (was SR4 FAQ part4)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:52:56 +0100
At 08:11 PM 4/18/2005, Korishinzo wrote:
> > More people (again within my sphere of observation) left Metallica
> > behind after "Load" than came to them after "Metallica" -
maybe we
> > all just got too old for teenage angst...
>
>I am not sure how rabid the fanbase of a given band gets across the
>pond, but I watched a lot of Metallica fans stagger about in apoplexy
>at "Enter Sandman", decrying it as the beginning of the end.

Bear in mind that a lot of us started with "The New Wave of British Heavy
Metal", compare Paul Di'anno's 'Maiden with that of Bruce Dickinson. An
undeniable improvement in musical eloquence and an increase in mainstream
appeal. Most of us think back with fondness to "Phantom of the Opera" and
it's appearance on a Lucozade advert but wouldn't actually go back to those
days. Then again Blaze Bailey trashed the band completely so... (besides it
all went downhill after "Seventh Son...").
We celebrated "Nothing Else Matters" as a perfect development from
"Sanatarium", "Of Wolf and Man" as a cracking mosh track right up
there
with "Battery"...

>To keep this vaguely on topic, I was using this process as an analogy
>for what I anticipate will happen with SR4.

So am I... I want to know if Adam's had his lip pierced and started wearing
eyeliner recently :-D

>There is a very good chance that this change will be econimcally good
>for Shadowrun. The process happens so often, across so many
>different industries, that such changes are even perhaps inevitable.
>And I realize that I am being a curmudgeon, annoyed that my
>'underground band is going mainstream', if you will. None of these
>points alters the basic truth that once a product (music, game, etc)
>gets far enough from its roots to alienate its core (read: old and
>curmudgeony) fanbase, it is living on borrowed time. New fans are
>fickle. They have a short attention span. Loyalty to a product is
>almost always built over time.

I'm not sure, Games Workshop has done quite well from a strategy of getting
twelve year olds to shell out hundreds of pounds of their parents' money
before they loose interest for quite a while now.
They've alienated their old customers (bikers aren't welcomed in the way
they were in stores, they scare the kids - Hey when I was a kid the fact
that there was a huge biker in the store made it all the cooler, it was
edgy, dangerous...) but they keep just enough coming out which might be of
interest to us to keep us from vanishing completely. I may refuse to play
Fantasy Battle after Third Edition but when they brought out Inquisitor I
snapped it up (I'm sculpting my minis - slowly but GW isn't getting a penny
from them and I play it as a pen and paper RPG, that'll show 'em).

>I'd rather buy my entire library of SR 1 & 2 books over again,
>re-released compliant to SR3 mechanics. I'd rather see the timeline
>fleshed out ~backwards~ a bit, increasing the overall scope (depth
>and breadth) of Shadowrun's source materials. I'd rather hear a
>second "Master of Puppets" than a first "Load". I doubt I am
alone.

Hmmm I have to admit I've grown to prefer the acoustic version of "Layla"
to the original and I might well gain similar respect for a reworked
version of some of the old sourcebooks... but then again... London...

>Korishinzo
>--heads off to run Earthdawn :p

Is that the original or the new revised D20 version? :-p
Alternatively you could always work your way through another turn for
Shadowgang <Ducks under Gurth's stairs>


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d++(---) s++: a->? C++(+) US++ P! L E? W++ N o? K? w+ O! M- V? PS+ PE-()
Y PGP? t+@ 5++ X- R+>+++$>* tv b+++ DI++++ D+ G++ e+ h r* y+>+++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--) m- w
s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [OT] RE: Metallica (was SR4 FAQ part4), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!