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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] RE: RE: AV Ammo
Date: Sat Aug 11 06:10:27 2001
According to Kal Thrax, on Sat, 11 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> I dont think you should bring rifles into this, there are several rifles
> that are anti-tank and several that do alot of damage to armoured cars and
> light vehicles. One examples is an older gun called the MKII( ithink its II)
> boys, anti tank rifle, that eventualy saw action as a sniper rifle.

The Boys is a British weapon, and in that case if there's a Mk. II there's
also a Mk. I :) From what I've read about it, it was a pretty mediocre (if
not to say "poor") weapon, BTW, but up until the early 1940s there were
plenty of what were known as "anti-tank rifles" -- large weapons firing a
rifle-caliber bullet to very high velocities which made them capable of
penetrating the light armor of the tanks of the day. By about 1942, though,
they had become all but useless due to the much heavier armor fitted to the
latest tanks; only the Russians kept using anti-tank rifles (the PTRD and
PTRS) until the end of the war.

Still, what these weapons all did was fire basically normal AP ammunition:
bullets with a hard and heavy core, usually made from tungsten, to as high
a velocity as could be achieved (which is why they all have very long
barrels). APDS hadn't been invented yet, and the bullets also weren't
designed to cause "special" damage to vehicles that they wouldn't cause to
people.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: [OT] RE: RE: AV Ammo
Date: Sat Aug 11 06:35:01 2001
In article <01081111572104.00715@***************>, Gurth
<Gurth@******.nl> writes

>The Boys is a British weapon, and in that case if there's a Mk. II there's
>also a Mk. I :) From what I've read about it, it was a pretty mediocre (if
>not to say "poor") weapon, BTW,

Only in that it was an anti-tank rifle in an era where tank armour
escalated dramatically. The rifle itself was very sound, just quickly
rendered outdated.

>but up until the early 1940s there were
>plenty of what were known as "anti-tank rifles" -- large weapons firing a
>rifle-caliber bullet to very high velocities

Most AT rifles were 13mm or above, with some examples going as high as
20mm (ouch) The Germans were the only ones to keep "rifle-calibre" AT
rifles, using a much-necked-down case to fire a 7.92mm bullet.

>Still, what these weapons all did was fire basically normal AP ammunition:
>bullets with a hard and heavy core, usually made from tungsten, to as high
>a velocity as could be achieved (which is why they all have very long
>barrels). APDS hadn't been invented yet, and the bullets also weren't
>designed to cause "special" damage to vehicles that they wouldn't cause to
>people.

Not quite true: the German 7.92mm bullet contained a capsule of tear gas
behind the steel armour-piercing core, the intention presumably being to
incapacitate the tank's occupants. It failed dismally in practice, the
gas capsule only being discovered when captured weapons and ammunition
were studied.

Some of the 20mm AT rifles fired high-explosive or SAPHE projectiles,
which would achieve pretty good terminal effects, but as you make the
rounds smaller there's less room to pack any payload in, and your
available damage potential drops too.

The problem with any armour-piercing small-arms round is lack of
terminal effect, and this gets more acute with sabots; by the time
you're using saboted 5.56mm bullets, you may be making a hole in the
armour but there really isn't much else going on.

Remember, the goal isn't to pierce the armour, it's to damage the
interior...


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] RE: RE: AV Ammo
Date: Sat Aug 11 13:40:05 2001
According to Paul J. Adam, on Sat, 11 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Most AT rifles were 13mm or above, with some examples going as high as
> 20mm (ouch) The Germans were the only ones to keep "rifle-calibre" AT
> rifles, using a much-necked-down case to fire a 7.92mm bullet.

I was using "rifle-caliber" to include things like large-caliber hunting
rifles, in which case anti-tank rifles do fire rifle-caliber ammo :) As you
said, most didn't fire bullets of comparable caliber to infantry
bolt-action rifles, though.

> Not quite true: the German 7.92mm bullet contained a capsule of tear gas
> behind the steel armour-piercing core, the intention presumably being to
> incapacitate the tank's occupants. It failed dismally in practice, the
> gas capsule only being discovered when captured weapons and ammunition
> were studied.

Granted. But the fact that it didn't do anything means that it was
basically just an AP bullet.

> Remember, the goal isn't to pierce the armour, it's to damage the
> interior...

Precisely. The question here is how SR's AV rounds achieve that :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: [OT] RE: RE: AV Ammo
Date: Sun Aug 12 08:10:01 2001
On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Gurth wrote:

> > Remember, the goal isn't to pierce the armour, it's to damage the
> > interior...
>
> Precisely. The question here is how SR's AV rounds achieve that :)

I'd be tempted to just say "It's EX APDS" ;-)

--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [OT] RE: RE: AV Ammo
Date: Sun Aug 12 08:45:06 2001
Paul J. Adam writes:

> The problem with any armour-piercing small-arms round is lack of
> terminal effect, and this gets more acute with sabots; by the time
> you're using saboted 5.56mm bullets, you may be making a hole in the
> armour but there really isn't much else going on.

I have a house rule that APDS ammo reduces the Damage Level by one because
of this exact reason. So an assault rifle firing APDS ammo goes from 8M to
8L Armour Piercing.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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