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Message no. 1
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: [OT] Re: Witch Hunt (Re: Spell Permits(Long))
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:45:04 -0400
Quoting Jared Leisner (leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU):
> Yes, anything is possible, but I don't think would be because the women
> labeled witches were from all sorts of families, and they weren't killed for
> using magic, they were tried/killed because they were peasents who practiced
> Wicca, Witchcraft, which the RC Church said worshipped dieties, and since
> the Christian God is the 'only true Diety', they were worshipping the
> Christian Satan, so the Church denounced their existance, which the common
> folk took as their order to rid the world from this plague to their God.

Personally, it's my belief that the vast majority of the women killed
in the witchcraft trials were not Wiccans, but simply people whom for one
reason or another (reclusiveness, declining to marry, etc) became a target
for suspicion and prejudice. Now, I'm sure that if those witch-hunters had
actually FOUND a Wiccan, they would have persecuted them (or prosecuted, I
suppose, depending on your perspective), and I know that the 'Burning Times'
play a major part in some Wiccans' worldviews, but I don't think the witchhunts
were really Catholic persecution of Wiccans as much as they were persecution
of people who didn't fit cultural norms, by a populace intolerant of such
'deviance'...it took a religious form that time around, but really, it's
a story as old as civilization.
For some background so you can properly judge my biases, I was
raised in and (depending on your view) grew past or lapsed from the
Catholic Church, and my SO (and about half of my gaming group) are Wiccan.
Of course, that doesn't mean that any of them agree with me on this :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 2
From: Jared Leisner <leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Witch Hunt (Re: Spell Permits(Long))
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:17:26 -0500
It started off as a hunt against 'devil worshippers', but did encompass
those who didn't live the good, Catholic life (if you didn't worship the
Christian God, you worshipped the Devil). And from what I understand, the
Wiccans did go underground until the late 1940s when Gardner came out and
told the world exactly what the Wiccan faith was about.

So yes, the witch hunts were a non-papally condoned attempt to rid the world
of everyone they thought worshipped the devil, and derived 'magical' powers
from it. Thing was anyone could accuse anyone and preteen-age children were
the main witnesses, and we all know how they act. :)
Message no. 3
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Witch Hunt (Re: Spell Permits(Long))
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:44:24 EDT
In a message dated 10/5/98 3:22:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU writes:

> It started off as a hunt against 'devil worshippers', but did encompass
> those who didn't live the good, Catholic life (if you didn't worship the
> Christian God, you worshipped the Devil). And from what I understand, the
> Wiccans did go underground until the late 1940s when Gardner came out and
> told the world exactly what the Wiccan faith was about.

What started off as a "crusade to save society" turned quickly into a venure
for those conducting the witch hunts to diverge into perverse and forbidden
pleasures. (Gotta keep the times in mind) It was also a very convient way of
getting rid of someone you did not like by accusing them of witchcraft.

-Bandit
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Witch Hunt (Re: Spell Permits(Long))
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:21:01 -0400
Quoting M. Sean Martinez (ElBandit@***.COM):
> In a message dated 10/5/98 3:22:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU writes:
>
> > It started off as a hunt against 'devil worshippers', but did encompass
> > those who didn't live the good, Catholic life (if you didn't worship the
> > Christian God, you worshipped the Devil). And from what I understand, the
> > Wiccans did go underground until the late 1940s when Gardner came out and
> > told the world exactly what the Wiccan faith was about.
>
> What started off as a "crusade to save society" turned quickly into a
venure
> for those conducting the witch hunts to diverge into perverse and forbidden
> pleasures. (Gotta keep the times in mind) It was also a very convient way of
> getting rid of someone you did not like by accusing them of witchcraft.

Actually, I misspoke slightly, earlier. There are two different
events being confused here. If you're talking about the Salem witch hunts
and related events, then you've got the wrong religion - the settlers in
New England were Protestant (Calvinist, I think), not Catholic. If you're
referring to the Inquisition in Europe, its primary targets were Protestants,
as well as members of various 'heresies' (alternate Christian doctrines),
not Wiccans or other 'heathens' (non-Christians)...though, again, if the
Wiccans happened into the path of the Inquisitors, I'm sure they'd have
been snatched up. The Inquisition's reputation for brutality, however, is
frequently misunderstood. /Relative to secular courts of the time/, the
Inquisition was remarkably humane, and actually had RULES about how torture
could be used - unlike secular courts, who generally used it (enthusiastically!)
however they liked. By modern standards, it was terrible and reprehensible,
but by the standards of the day, it was almost merciful. People would actually
try to commit religious crimes while in secular jails, so as to be handed
over to the Inquisition, rather than facing trial by the government.
There are a lot of problems with the Catholic Church, in my opinion,
but this isn't one of them. The myth far outdistances the reality.
As far as the atmosphere of either event being used to justify
or conceal 'perversity' of some sort...that's certainly a popular conception,
but I don't know that there's any real way to substantiate or reject it
at this late date. You may well be right, but there's no way for us really
to know. What we DO know is bad enough...I don't think there's any need
to enlarge the story.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Witch Hunt (Re: Spell Permits(Long))
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:00:43 -0500
>> And from what I
> understand, the
> > > Wiccans did go underground until the late 1940s when Gardner
> came out and
> > > told the world exactly what the Wiccan faith was about.

So sayeth the Gardenerians. There is still some debate about where Gardner
came up with his stuff, and whether or not there really is any direct link
(from him) to what we would describe as medeaval (and earlier) pagans.
(Sorry about responding to an earlier post in a later message, but I figured
it was better responded to in this one).

> but by the standards of the day, it was almost merciful. People
> would actually
> try to commit religious crimes while in secular jails, so as to be handed
> over to the Inquisition, rather than facing trial by the government.

This is the first time I've heard this (but that's just because I've only
done a smattering of research on it), but I'd imagine that a lot of the
people did that because a lot of the time, the penalties became relatively
light once you admitted your 'guilt' (in some cases, that is...there are
definite and extreme exceptions).

> As far as the atmosphere of either event being used to justify
> or conceal 'perversity' of some sort...that's certainly a popular
> conception,
> but I don't know that there's any real way to substantiate or reject it
> at this late date. You may well be right, but there's no way for us really
> to know. What we DO know is bad enough...I don't think there's any need
> to enlarge the story.

I don't think that this concealment of perversity was widespread by any
means, but I'd bet that in individual cases it wasn't completely unknown.
(And I'm fairly sure that there are accurate accounts that do describe such
things. But I do think you're right that on a widespread basis, it probably
didn't happen like that).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

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