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Message no. 1
From: pentaj2@****.edu (Penta John C)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:35:43 -0400
OK.

Let me explain my situation:

To help various curious yet uninformed people I come in contact with,
mostly via a PBEM I'm involved in, I'm trying to put together a handy
reference guide to various things.

Mostly I'm done, but for one issue: Military organization. It's a
geopolitical-themed PBEM I'm involved in, so this does affect things.
Unfortunately, I can find crap for info in a useful format, despite
crawling over the official sites (the *.mils and soforth), FAS.org,
globalsecurity.org, etc.

What I'm looking for:

The REALLY basic stuff of organization. Ranks are a fungible thing that
I found. Now, I need stuff like how many soldiers are in an infantry
squad, squads to platoon, and up. (I'm thinking the infantry (US Army);
Same for any other branches would be helpful, and similar things for
each of the services would earn my gratitude.) It's the kinda stuff
that falls through the cracks; So basic that nobody explains it, making
it hard for anybody who can't enlist (like me, cursed eyes) to find
such info. Even more appreciated would be such info for the non-
American systems around the world, like the UK/Commonwealth system, the
Soviet/Russian system, and any others people know.

Current (free, realistically; I'm a college student, so I'm broke..)
weblinks are fine, email'd docs that you'll allow posted to the web
(modified to remove personally-identifying details, of course) are
good. Because of the international playerbase and varying English
skills of the players, however, I'll have to ask that paper books and
similar (Janes...) be avoided: Many people just won't have access to em.

Other thing that would be handy is prices on various equipment from
around the world. I'm looking for the, uh..."sticker price" for
equipment. Procurement costs are difficult to figure out, I know, but
I've been trying for a long time to discover this sort of stuff. US
equipment is easy to find prices on. Other countries' catalogs of
equipment? Difficult on a good day, impossible on a bad day.
---

Now, misc notes:

1. I understand OPSEC. I know also I'm not qualified to determine if
anything I've asked for falls under it, so I'm going to hope for the
best and hope not. But, I don't know. Please, just tell me if that's
the case.

2. I'm dealing with people who are, in some cases, seriously military-
illiterate. I will admit to myself not being much better. Please be
kind if these seem like stupid questions. I'm not as stupid as I sound,
honest!

3. I've looked on Yahoo and Google. For months.:-( Similarly, I've
looked at the Reimer Digital Library. The FMs have been non-helpful.

4. I know this is OT. Ontopic however...what're they organized like for
the UCAS, CAS, NAN, Aztlan, Tir, etc militaries?

Any help would be appreciated.

John
Message no. 2
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:51:28 +0200
Am Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:35:43 -0400 hat Penta John C <pentaj2@****.edu>
geschrieben:

> OK.
>
> Let me explain my situation:
>
> To help various curious yet uninformed people I come in contact with,
> mostly via a PBEM I'm involved in, I'm trying to put together a handy
> reference guide to various things.
>
> Mostly I'm done, but for one issue: Military organization. It's a
> geopolitical-themed PBEM I'm involved in, so this does affect things.
> Unfortunately, I can find crap for info in a useful format, despite
> crawling over the official sites (the *.mils and soforth), FAS.org,
> globalsecurity.org, etc.
>
> What I'm looking for:
>
> The REALLY basic stuff of organization. Ranks are a fungible thing that I
> found. Now, I need stuff like how many soldiers are in an infantry squad,
> squads to platoon, and up. (I'm thinking the infantry (US Army);

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/90th.html
Found via googling for: "organization US Infantry" (without the "")

The paragraph "Organiyation" contains what you need, althoug I it's related
to the 1944-45 years.

But that should give you a first shot on how a division is organized.

Modern armies still use the above, but are outfitted with assault weapons
(the M22A2 is used by the UCAS and CAS), and use LMGs as support weapon on
squad level. Each platoon should have an AT squad, using MAW's or Great
Dragons and the like.

Concerning other nations: They are, basically, organized the same, with
variations in strength and composition. I.E. a squad holds 15 or 10
soldiers, a platoon consists of 10 squads, and such, using different
weapons.

For Armored Divisions, just invert the infantry - heavy weapons ratio. Then
one division has 3 MBT companies (Main Battle Tanks, Rigger 3.01D has two,
dunno about the english version), and 1 scout company, using T-Birds and/or
LAVs for recon.

I hope that helps.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 3
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:54:42 -0600
At 11:35 AM 6/12/2003 -0400, Penta John C wrote:
>OK.
>
>Let me explain my situation:
>
>To help various curious yet uninformed people I come in contact with,
>mostly via a PBEM I'm involved in, I'm trying to put together a handy
>reference guide to various things.
>
>Mostly I'm done, but for one issue: Military organization. It's a
>geopolitical-themed PBEM I'm involved in, so this does affect things.
>Unfortunately, I can find crap for info in a useful format, despite
>crawling over the official sites (the *.mils and soforth), FAS.org,
>globalsecurity.org, etc.
>
>What I'm looking for:
>
>The REALLY basic stuff of organization. Ranks are a fungible thing that
>I found. Now, I need stuff like how many soldiers are in an infantry
>squad, squads to platoon, and up. (I'm thinking the infantry (US Army);

I found the following on the web:

Army Troop Organization

Squad -- The smallest military unit, it usually consists of 10 to 11 soldiers.

Platoon -- A platoon is usually four squads. Platoons are usually led by
lieutenants, with sergeants serving as their second-in-command.

Company -- Companies consist of four platoons, a headquarters and some
logistical staff. They are normally commanded by captains.

Battalion -- A battalion is usually made up of four to five companies,
including a support company and a headquarters company.

Brigade -- A brigade is a collection of battalions, usually 2,000 to 3,000
troops. Brigades are most often commanded by a colonel.

Division -- There are at least three brigades in a division. They are
usually commanded by a major general.

Corps -- Made up of two to five divisions, corps are the largest tactical
units in the U.S. Army.

>Same for any other branches would be helpful, and similar things for
>each of the services would earn my gratitude.)

Marine Organization

The Marine Corps, a branch of the Navy, has some unit classifications that
are unique.

Marine Expeditionary Force -- An expeditionary force is made up of two or
three divisions of Marines. The force is usually deployed on helicopter
carriers or amphibious assault ships. Its equipment and weaponry includes
tanks, artillery, Harrier jump jets and attack helicopters.

Marine Expeditionary Unit -- Each marine division is known separately as a
Marine Expeditionary Unit. The unit usually includes a battalion landing
team, helicopter squadron and support unit.

Take the following link for very detailed PDF of the US Air Force Organization:

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/38/afi38-101/afi38-101.pdf

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 4
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:31:40 +0200
According to Penta John C, on Thursday 12 June 2003 17:35 the word on the
street was...

> The REALLY basic stuff of organization. Ranks are a fungible thing that
> I found. Now, I need stuff like how many soldiers are in an infantry
> squad, squads to platoon, and up.

The basic unit is a squad (or "section" in British-influenced,
English-speaking countries) that usually these days consists of two fire
teams, of about four or five soldiers each -- making roughly ten soldiers
to a squad. Nominally, each fire team has a team leader, a support weapon
operated by one man (usually a light machine gun of some kind), and the
rest of the team are armed with rifles or similar weapons (in the US army,
one with grenade launcher). The squad leader can be one of the fire team
leaders, or can also be an additional member of the squad. Most squaddies
are privates, though this again depends on the nation: in the British
army, for example, lance corporals lead fire teams and corporals lead
squads, while in the US you'll find corporals and sergeants, respectively,
in those same positions.

A number of squads, usually three or so, make a platoon. This also has a
platoon headquarters element, usually consisting of a lieutenant, a
(senior) sergeant, and some or another radio operator. Some armies also
add a kind of light fire support to a platoon, such as light mortars (in
the 50 to 60 mm range) or a sustained-fire machine gun (though these are
more often than not actually part of a weapons squad that forms part of
the company, and detached to the platoon when necessary).

The rest works much the same way: a number (three or four) platoons plus an
HQ element and support units (such as a heavy weapons squad) make a
company; a few companies plus HQ and support units make a battalion; and
so on.

From small to large, some common unit names are:
Squad
Platoon
Company
Battalion
Brigade
Division

In armored units, each armored fighting vehicle (AFV) equates to a squad,
so that several vehicles (normally three, four or five or so) are a
platoon, a few platoons plus one or two HQ vehicles are a company, and so
on.

> Even more appreciated would be such info for the non-
> American systems around the world, like the UK/Commonwealth system, the
> Soviet/Russian system, and any others people know.

Most work much the same; the details differ, but most modern armies are
pretty much organized along the lines I already mentioned.

But since you asked, I checked my Twilight: 2000 list mailbox, and found
the following that I'd typed in for someone a few months back, which is
the order of battle for a Soviet naval infantry regiment in the mid-1980s
(this is the Russian equivalent to what we in the west know as Marines; a
regiment in Russian parlance is equivalent to brigade in western terms).

Naval Infantry Regiment:
1 HQ:
60 troops
4 BTR-60s (8-wheeled armored personnel carriers)
3 Naval infantry battalions, each with:
409 troops
34 BTR-60s
3 120 mm mortars
27 RPG-7s (man-pack anti-tank rocket launchers)
9 SA-7s (anti-aircraft missile launchers)
3 SPG-9s (tripod-mounted anti-tank rocket launchers)
3 AT-4 manpacks (tripod-mounted anti-tank missile
launchers)
1 Tank battalion:
188 troops
3 BTR-60s
31 PT-76s (light tanks)
10 T-55s (main battle tanks)
1 Recce company:
50 troops
3 PT-76s
9 BRDM-2s (4-wheeled reconnaissance vehicles)
4 ZSU-23-4s (tracked anti-aircraft gun systems)
4 SA-9s (wheeled anti-aircraft missile carriers/launchers)
1 AT battery:
30 troops
6 AT-4 manpacks
1 MRL battery:
66 troops
6 BM-21s (truck-mounted 40-round artillery rocket
launchers)
1 AA battery:
58 troops
(unknown other equipment)
1 Engineer company:
70 troops
3 K-61s (tracked amphibious vehicles, IIRC)
1 Signals company:
57 troops
2 BTR-60s
1 Chemical defense company:
36 troops
3 BRDM-2s (probably BRDM-2RKh, the chemical-reconnaissance
model of the BRDM-2)
1 Transportation company:
74 troops
(unknown other equipment)
1 Supply company
39 troops
(unknown other equipment)
1 Maintenance company
57 troops
(unknown other equipment)
1 Medical company
27 troops
(unknown other equipment)

All this from the Osprey book "Elite Series No. 5: Soviet Block Elite
Forces", dated 1985. Yes, it's old and probably out of date, but it should
at least give you some idea of what you can expect to find in such a unit.

> 1. I understand OPSEC. I know also I'm not qualified to determine if
> anything I've asked for falls under it, so I'm going to hope for the
> best and hope not. But, I don't know. Please, just tell me if that's
> the case.

This sort of stuff is not normally classified, AFAIK, unless you start
asking about covert-ops units (how _is_ the SAS organized...?).

> I'm not as stupid as I sound, honest!

That's what I'd claim, too ;)

> 4. I know this is OT. Ontopic however...what're they organized like for
> the UCAS, CAS, NAN, Aztlan, Tir, etc militaries?

Anything you want them to be, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:38:26 +1000 (EST)
--- Penta John C <pentaj2@****.edu> wrote: >
<snip> it hard for anybody who can't enlist (like me,
> cursed eyes) to find
> such info.<snip>

What's wrong with your eyes, I've applied as a feild
medic & been accepted, all I require are sturdy feild
issue glasses, contacts, or laser rectifieing
treatment. Medics 1st post is training with Infantry
core (If your male compulsory, females ADF still not
allowed in combat role), besides Infantry & all other
cores 'cept pilots of aircraft don't descriminate
eyesite unless severe case.

GZ

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- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.
Message no. 6
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:06:13 +1000 (EST)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote: <snip> This sort
of stuff is not normally classified,
> AFAIK, unless you start
> asking about covert-ops units (how _is_ the SAS
> organized...?).

Simple things like numbers in their units, yeah their
fine as they state them in common literature IIRC Seal
team 6 contains as many soldiers, although there are
slight differences between same types of units;
British SAS 4 members, Australian SAS went back to
original 5 Team members; don't mix them up. Also
various special forces have been known to mix It up a
little & have the support of half another team e.g.
British SAS 4 member team bravo, 2 members from Alpha
as a spotter & sniper. It's also very common for the
order of your section doesn't necessarily mean you go
in first, usually your on standby or training e.g.
Bravo team will usually get sent before alpha, go
figure as I don't know why either.

GZ

http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile
- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.
Message no. 7
From: pentaj2@****.edu (Penta John C)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:22:49 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au>
Date: Friday, June 13, 2003 0:38 am
Subject: Re: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!

> --- Penta John C <pentaj2@****.edu> wrote: >
> <snip> it hard for anybody who can't enlist (like me,
> > cursed eyes) to find
> > such info.<snip>
>
> What's wrong with your eyes, I've applied as a feild
> medic & been accepted, all I require are sturdy feild
> issue glasses, contacts, or laser rectifieing
> treatment. Medics 1st post is training with Infantry
> core (If your male compulsory, females ADF still not
> allowed in combat role), besides Infantry & all other
> cores 'cept pilots of aircraft don't descriminate
> eyesite unless severe case.

I'm blind in one eye, firstly. Second, I only see 20/60 in the other
eye with glasses. For the US military, that automatically disqualifies
from enlistment.

John
Message no. 8
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:36:25 +0200
Robert Ennew wrote:
> --- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote: <snip> This sort
> of stuff is not normally classified,
> > AFAIK, unless you start
> > asking about covert-ops units (how _is_ the SAS
> > organized...?).
>
> Simple things like numbers in their units, yeah their
> fine as they state them in common literature IIRC Seal
> team 6 contains as many soldiers, although there are
> slight differences between same types of units;
> British SAS 4 members, Australian SAS went back to
> original 5 Team members; don't mix them up. Also
> various special forces have been known to mix It up a
> little & have the support of half another team e.g.
> British SAS 4 member team bravo, 2 members from Alpha
> as a spotter & sniper.
>
> [snip]

Yes, my understanding is that resources can be pooled from the various
specialist teams based on specific mission parameters. They're trained and
organized to be versatile.

> It's also very common for the
> order of your section doesn't necessarily mean you go
> in first, usually your on standby or training e.g.
> Bravo team will usually get sent before alpha, go
> figure as I don't know why either.

My guess here would be that Alpha team is probably responsible for the
primary objective, and Bravo commands secondary objectives and support.
Bravo is sent in first to spearhead the assault and minimize obstacles for
Alpha, increasing their chance of success and improving the efficiency of
the unit as a whole.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 9
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] Stupid Newbie Question Time!
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:14:55 +1000 (EST)
--- Penta John C <pentaj2@****.edu> wrote: >
> I'm blind in one eye, firstly. Second, I only see
> 20/60 in the other
> eye with glasses. For the US military, that
> automatically disqualifies
> from enlistment.
>
> John

Sorry to hear that John, hard luck huh. Your skills
are probabely to valuable to waste In the military
anyway :)

GZ

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- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.

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