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Message no. 1
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 03:35:39 -0500
> *cough* Philippe, this has to be the single biggest piece of American
> imperialistic bullshit I've seen in a LONG time... and I don't
> even know if
> you're American!

Just a quick note. Not all Americans see themselves as a part of the most
powerful country thoughout all the known and unknown world. In fact, I'd
guess that even the most 'patriotic' of us generally confine that patriotism
to our own borders. Your assuming otherwise could be construed as being
overly defensive, or something of an inferiority complex, (where none should
exist), or simply anti-american (in the sense of an irrational hatred for
something that isn't necessarily true. "Anti-american" is a poor choice of
words, I know, but the best I'm coming up with at the moment).

:) And America is born of an Empire. Americans in general don't really think
of themselves as imperialistic...we can visit other contries without taking
them over. It's our military and our government that has the bad behaviour
outside our borders.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 2
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:10:39 +1000
>:) And America is born of an Empire. Americans in general don't really think
>of themselves as imperialistic...we can visit other contries without taking
>them over. It's our military and our government that has the bad behaviour
>outside our borders.
>
>
>
> -XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net
> -David Goth-
>

And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
and don't invite any other countries to compete :)

Cheers,
Tim Burke
Australia
Message no. 3
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:32:58 -0400
XaOs [David Goth] wrote:
>
> :) And America is born of an Empire. Americans in general don't really think
> of themselves as imperialistic...we can visit other contries without taking
> them over. It's our military and our government that has the bad behaviour
> outside our borders.

Clearly you're discounting the might of such private American entities as
McDonald's, Microsoft, Nike, and the various film and television
producers.

THAT'S where you'll find the imperialism. It's cultural, not military.
And their impact on the rest of the world is much bigger than the US
government's.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:21:45 -0400
At 07:10 PM 10/8/98 +1000, you wrote:

>And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
>and don't invite any other countries to compete :)

Well, first of all, Canada is a part of basketball and baseball. So
technically it is international. And aside from the US, who else really
plays football? Canada has their own brand of the game, but who else
plays? No, really, I'm serious. The big 3 of American sports just aren't
terribly popular outside our borders, with a few exceptions of baseball
also being a hit in Japan, the Caribbean and Mexico. True, there's
basketball in Europe, but to my knowledge, it doesn't have any sort of mass
support, as opposed to soccer for example.

The rest of the world has soccer, rugby and the like, we have basketball,
baseball and football.

And don't dare tell me that football really is soccer and I should call
football American football or some nonsense. *I'll* call it soccer and
football until the day I die.

And besides, this just gets into yet another silly and stupid argument that
GridSec will have to stomp on quickly.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 5
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:56:38 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-08 05:15:15 EDT, you write:

<< And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
and don't invite any other countries to compete :)

Cheers,
Tim Burke
Australia >>

Touchy point there, Tim. I was about to say that for most of those, its
because the sport isnt played in other countries, but thats not true anymore.
Come to think of it, Baseball is widely followed in Japan, there Is a European
Basketball leauge, but I dont know of anywhere where pro football (american
style) is big. I know the NFL plays a couple of expo games in europe, but in
90% of the world, football means the game we call soccer. WHich makes one
heck of a lot of sense, if you think about it, since it IS played mostly with
the feet.

I think Tim is right. The world series, for example, shouldnt be the world
series unless its against the top pro baseball teams from wherever. Say the
winner of The american championship should play the top team(s) from other
countries in a REAL world series.

Mike.... Americanus Wierdus.
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:00:35 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ At 07:10 PM 10/8/98 +1000, you wrote:
/
/ >And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
/ >and don't invite any other countries to compete :)
/
/ Well, first of all, Canada is a part of basketball and baseball. So
/ technically it is international. And aside from the US, who else really
/ plays football? Canada has their own brand of the game, but who else
/ plays?

There's the European Football League (at least I think that's what it's
called). Problem is, they currently don't hold a candle to the NFL
competetively. The worst NFL team would beat the tar out of the best
EFL team. Now, if the European Football teams reach the level of NFL
teams, then you might see the EFL added to the NFL as the European
Football Conference (where there's the call of an advertising dollar,
there's a way). But that would require some serious financial support
from the fans of the EFL.

Could make for an interesting adventure in SR as the runners are hired
to pick-up, protect, and deliver the new (yet secret) owners of the EFC
teams to the NFL owners meeting to hammer out the final details of the
creation of the EFC in 2061.

/ And don't dare tell me that football really is soccer and I should call
/ football American football or some nonsense. *I'll* call it soccer and
/ football until the day I die.
/
/ And besides, this just gets into yet another silly and stupid argument that
/ GridSec will have to stomp on quickly.

<GridSec> Starts reaching for his "dancing" shoes </GridSec>

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:12:17 -0400
At 12:00 PM 10/8/98 -0600, you wrote:

>There's the European Football League (at least I think that's what it's
>called). Problem is, they currently don't hold a candle to the NFL
>competetively.

I'm pretty sure the European League is made up of American players however,
those that couldn't make it to the NFL or the CFL.

>Could make for an interesting adventure in SR as the runners are hired
>to pick-up, protect, and deliver the new (yet secret) owners of the EFC
>teams to the NFL owners meeting to hammer out the final details of the
>creation of the EFC in 2061.

That could be a cool run to do right around Super Bowl time, when nearly
anyone and everyone in the US is paying at least a tiny bit of attention to
football. And depending on what you want to do, you might even design it
to fail...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 8
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:29:20 +1000
At 12:21 PM 10/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:10 PM 10/8/98 +1000, you wrote:
>
>>And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
>>and don't invite any other countries to compete :)
>
>Well, first of all, Canada is a part of basketball and baseball. So
>technically it is international.

So how many Canadian players are on these teams?
Oh oh this is getting silly. Don't answer that.

> And aside from the US, who else really
>plays football? Canada has their own brand of the game, but who else
>plays? No, really, I'm serious. The big 3 of American sports just aren't
>terribly popular outside our borders, with a few exceptions of baseball
>also being a hit in Japan, the Caribbean and Mexico. True, there's
>basketball in Europe, but to my knowledge, it doesn't have any sort of mass
>support, as opposed to soccer for example.
>
>The rest of the world has soccer, rugby and the like, we have basketball,
>baseball and football.
>
>And don't dare tell me that football really is soccer and I should call
>football American football or some nonsense. *I'll* call it soccer and
>football until the day I die.

Only the real die hard soccer fans will tell you that it is really football.
I call it soccer and in Australia we call it soccer as well. We have the
National Soccer League. I suppose though when you look at it if any
game can lay claim to the term football it should be soccer but hey
I was only joking before anyway. I actually quoted John Cleese
before when I said the world championship thing.

>
>And besides, this just gets into yet another silly and stupid argument that
>GridSec will have to stomp on quickly.
>
>Erik J.

Chill Erik, I was only joking before. I'm sorry to wind you up.

Cheers,
Tim Burke
Brisbane, Australia
ranger@********.com.au
Message no. 9
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:01:13 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/1998 4:15:18 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
ranger@********.COM.AU writes:

>
> And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
> and don't invite any other countries to compete :)

Somehow, I just *knew* this would come up.... ;P

-K
Message no. 10
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:18:05 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/98 6:35:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sfeley@***.NET
writes:

> XaOs [David Goth] wrote:
> >
> > :) And America is born of an Empire. Americans in general don't really
> think
> > of themselves as imperialistic...we can visit other contries without
> taking
> > them over. It's our military and our government that has the bad
behaviour
> > outside our borders.
>
> Clearly you're discounting the might of such private American entities as
> McDonald's, Microsoft, Nike, and the various film and television
> producers.
>
> THAT'S where you'll find the imperialism. It's cultural, not military.
> And their impact on the rest of the world is much bigger than the US
> government's.
Good Ole US of A, inventor of the Fast food Mega-corp :o)
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:22:54 +1000
Xaos writes:
> > *cough* Philippe, this has to be the single biggest piece of American
> > imperialistic bullshit I've seen in a LONG time... and I don't
> > even know if
> > you're American!
>
> Just a quick note. Not all Americans see themselves as a part of the most
> powerful country thoughout all the known and unknown world. In fact, I'd
> guess that even the most 'patriotic' of us generally confine that
> patriotism
> to our own borders. Your assuming otherwise could be construed as being
> overly defensive, or something of an inferiority complex, (where
> none should
> exist), or simply anti-american (in the sense of an irrational hatred for
> something that isn't necessarily true. "Anti-american" is a poor choice of
> words, I know, but the best I'm coming up with at the moment).

A quick couple of points, if I may:
1) I said the statement was American imperialistic bullshit. Which is to say
that it assumed (erronously) that the US is the number one nation in
everything (okay, that's not what the phrase really means, but that's how
the phrase is generally used). I made no comment about wether or not the US
really is imperialistic.

2) The US is not imperialistic in the 19th century sense, which basically
involved invading countries and setting up colonies. It is imperialistic in
a cultural sense, but that's a seperate issue.

3) I don't like the stereotypical attitude of Americans (apologies to any
Canadians and Mexicans, but you just can't say USians). I know that most
Americans aren't like that, in person. But the stereotypical attitude is
still common enough. Further more, I'm not alone in that sentiment. Outside
of the borders of the United States, Americans are not seen in a very
positive light anywhere. A typical snapshot view would be arrogant,
patronising, and too bloody loud (both in voice and dress). This view comes
from the American tourist, the only traveller worse than the German tourist.

And the odd part about all this is that the US isn't a country that likes to
impose its views on others (aside from the struggle for democracy, but it's
half-hearted about that, even). The US is traditionally, and currently, an
extremely isolationist country, reluctant at best to involve itself with the
workings of other nations. The Cold War drew the US out of it's shell a bit,
but since then it has retreated back in. Hence the top story in the States
isn't about the current global economic crisis, but wether or not Bill
Clinton should be kicked out of office for getting a blowjob (Side issue:
What is with it with those people? The inquiry could take more than two
years, at which point Bill Clinton will be out of office ANYWAY as he can't
go for a third term!).

Anyway, this is seriously OT, so I'm not going to comment any more. So I'll
get the apologies out of the way: I apologise to anyone I offended, so let's
not start the flamewars about patriotism going again.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 12
From: Paul Chamberlain <junior@*****.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:36:39 +0800
>/ And don't dare tell me that football really is soccer and I should call
>/ football American football or some nonsense. *I'll* call it soccer and
>/ football until the day I die.


But then there is Also Australian Football (Go the Eagles and the Dockers:),
Gaelic Football (or Speedball), Rugby League, Rugby Union, etc etc
And all these games are called football in one or more places.

Arkem
Message no. 13
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:34:07 -0500
Tim Burke wrote:

<SNIP>

>
>
> And your sporting bodies that hold world championships
> and don't invite any other countries to compete :)
>
> Cheers,
> Tim Burke
> Australia

Wow well if you REALLY must compete in the WWF be my guest but uhh.. incase
you didn't realize it is fake. Other than that I really can not think of a
sport that we have a "world" championchip in that we don't allow the
"world" to
compete in. Please enlighten me on this. BTW this really prolly should revert
to e-mail since we are now bickering about sports.

Grimlakin
Message no. 14
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:05:32 -0400
Joshua Mumme wrote:
>
> Wow well if you REALLY must compete in the WWF be my guest but uhh.. incase
> you didn't realize it is fake. Other than that I really can not think of a
> sport that we have a "world" championchip in that we don't allow the
"world" to
> compete in. Please enlighten me on this. BTW this really prolly should revert
> to e-mail since we are now bickering about sports.


There's this popular sport that involves a ball, a stick, and nine guys
standing around in a field...


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 15
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:13:35 -0400
Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET> writes:
> There's this popular sport that involves a ball, a stick, and nine guys
> standing around in a field...

IIRC, that one is named after a newspaper that originally
sponsored it. <shrug> I can't stand the sport though, so I couldn't
really say for sure.

I was wondering though, for people who read Wolf + Raven,
whether they've run anything sports-related like the run described in
the baseball story, and how it worked out.

Mark
Message no. 16
From: Faust <apocrytha@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:04:44 -0500
Robert Watkins wrote:

> Xaos writes:
> > > *cough* Philippe, this has to be the single biggest piece of American
> > > imperialistic bullshit I've seen in a LONG time... and I don't
> > > even know if
> > > you're American!
> >
> > Just a quick note. Not all Americans see themselves as a part of the most
> > powerful country thoughout all the known and unknown world. In fact, I'd
> > guess that even the most 'patriotic' of us generally confine that
> > patriotism
> > to our own borders. Your assuming otherwise could be construed as being
> > overly defensive, or something of an inferiority complex, (where
> > none should
> > exist), or simply anti-american (in the sense of an irrational hatred for
> > something that isn't necessarily true. "Anti-american" is a poor
choice of
> > words, I know, but the best I'm coming up with at the moment).
>
> A quick couple of points, if I may:
> 1) I said the statement was American imperialistic bullshit. Which is to say
> that it assumed (erronously) that the US is the number one nation in
> everything (okay, that's not what the phrase really means, but that's how
> the phrase is generally used). I made no comment about wether or not the US
> really is imperialistic.
>
> 2) The US is not imperialistic in the 19th century sense, which basically
> involved invading countries and setting up colonies. It is imperialistic in
> a cultural sense, but that's a seperate issue.
>
> 3) I don't like the stereotypical attitude of Americans (apologies to any
> Canadians and Mexicans, but you just can't say USians). I know that most
> Americans aren't like that, in person. But the stereotypical attitude is
> still common enough. Further more, I'm not alone in that sentiment. Outside
> of the borders of the United States, Americans are not seen in a very
> positive light anywhere. A typical snapshot view would be arrogant,
> patronising, and too bloody loud (both in voice and dress). This view comes
> from the American tourist, the only traveller worse than the German tourist.
>
> And the odd part about all this is that the US isn't a country that likes to
> impose its views on others (aside from the struggle for democracy, but it's
> half-hearted about that, even). The US is traditionally, and currently, an
> extremely isolationist country, reluctant at best to involve itself with the
> workings of other nations. The Cold War drew the US out of it's shell a bit,
> but since then it has retreated back in. Hence the top story in the States
> isn't about the current global economic crisis, but wether or not Bill
> Clinton should be kicked out of office for getting a blowjob (Side issue:
> What is with it with those people? The inquiry could take more than two
> years, at which point Bill Clinton will be out of office ANYWAY as he can't
> go for a third term!).
>
> Anyway, this is seriously OT, so I'm not going to comment any more. So I'll
> get the apologies out of the way: I apologise to anyone I offended, so let's
> not start the flamewars about patriotism going again.
>
> --
> Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
> binds the Universe together.
> Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

Its not about head, its about lying.
Message no. 17
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] The United Empire of America (was RE: Iceland)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:58:37 -0500
Steve Eley wrote:

> Joshua Mumme wrote:
>

<Snip my stuff>

> There's this popular sport that involves a ball, a stick, and nine guys
> standing around in a field...
>
> Have Fun,
> - Steve Eley
> sfeley@***.net

Oh is that a sport? I thought we just paid to go in and drink lots of beet and then
have fun at the real sport. Trying to drive home while drunk and haveing to take a pee
so bad it feels as if your bladder us going to explode along with 50 thousand OTHER
drunks tryin to hold it!

Grimlakin

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