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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:20:26 -0800
From: Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.com>
<snip>

> Well, I know why Bull does ... the WW players in our area are total
freaks.
> Not because they play WW games. They'd be freaks no matter what they
played!
> ;-)
> I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The
experience
> can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
> Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.

Oh man, I'm filching that one for later use!

<snip>

> I too was once a WW basher, but I completely went nuts for Changeling!
> Unfortunately very few of my regular players really "get" the feel of that
> game, so I never play, but I anticipate each book for Changeling as much
as
> I do FASA's SR stuff.
> (And since I have EVERYTHING ever published for SR - Yes, I even got
another
> copy of DMZ - you know that's high praise.)
> BTW - Steve Kenson, if you're reading this, I really liked the Enchanted
> sourcebook. But the Anton Stark thing was a little much. ;-)

You have TWO copies of DMZ? You really are a glutton for punishment! That
thing was a bad adaption of Battletroops to begin with . An bad adaption not
even compatible with Shadowrun First Edition to add insult to injury.

<snip LARP stuff.>

> What's my point?
> I guess that WW bashing can be cured. You just have to want to stop first.
> ;-)

There is nothing wrong with White Wolf games that ripping out the lame
background story and locking all LARPers in a cage won't fix ;)

> <warezdood/>SR still RuLz though!<warezdood/off>

You forgot to replace the letters with numbers to show hoe 'leet you are.
Geeze does nobody here hang out with real computer underground people heheh
;) Hell I still remember when it was still "cool" and not a sign you are
just a lame script-kiddy playing with NetBus.

So translated to 'leetspeak it should be "SR Ru73Z Y0 y0 Y0. gR33tZ a77!"

Hey Allen, you have a better translation?

> Sorry, it slipped! ;-)

Bad boy!

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 2
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:23:13 -0500
> > I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The
> experience
> > can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
> > Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.
>
> Oh man, I'm filching that one for later use!

Feel free. I stole it from a HS buddy, and I'm fairly sure he stole it from
a comedian.

> You have TWO copies of DMZ? You really are a glutton for punishment! That
> thing was a bad adaption of Battletroops to begin with . An bad adaption
not
> even compatible with Shadowrun First Edition to add insult to injury

DEAR GOD NO!
What do you think I am? A masochist?
What I meant was that I sold my original copy that I got when it first came
out.
This past year, I found a copy on sale for 5 bucks and grabbed it just to
fill the hole in my collection.
Obsessive? Who me? ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college." -
Louis Black
Message no. 3
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:47:39 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] White Wolf


>> > I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The
>> experience
>> > can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
>> > Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.
>>
>> Oh man, I'm filching that one for later use!
>
>Feel free. I stole it from a HS buddy, and I'm fairly sure he stole it from
>a comedian.
>
It was in Ford Fairlane, with Andrew Dice Clay. That doesn't mean he made it
up, and the words were slightly different.
Speaking of Ford Fairlane, I just realised, he was given a Koala by the
band INXS, and the koala was later found hanged (long story, see the movie).
Michael Hutchence, lead singer of INXS, was also found hanged, years later
of course. Spooky (well sort of...)
Message no. 4
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:22:58 +0200
Tzeentch wrote:
>
> From: Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.com>
> <snip>
>
> > Well, I know why Bull does ... the WW players in our area are total
> freaks.
> > Not because they play WW games. They'd be freaks no matter what they
> played!
> > ;-)
> > I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The
> experience
> > can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
> > Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.
>
> Oh man, I'm filching that one for later use!
>
> <snip>
>
> > I too was once a WW basher, but I completely went nuts for Changeling!
> > Unfortunately very few of my regular players really "get" the feel of
that
> > game, so I never play, but I anticipate each book for Changeling as much
> as
> > I do FASA's SR stuff.
> > (And since I have EVERYTHING ever published for SR - Yes, I even got
> another
> > copy of DMZ - you know that's high praise.)
> > BTW - Steve Kenson, if you're reading this, I really liked the Enchanted
> > sourcebook. But the Anton Stark thing was a little much. ;-)
>
> You have TWO copies of DMZ? You really are a glutton for punishment! That
> thing was a bad adaption of Battletroops to begin with . An bad adaption not
> even compatible with Shadowrun First Edition to add insult to injury.
>
> <snip LARP stuff.>
>
> > What's my point?
> > I guess that WW bashing can be cured. You just have to want to stop first.
> > ;-)
>
> There is nothing wrong with White Wolf games that ripping out the lame
> background story and locking all LARPers in a cage won't fix ;)
>
> > <warezdood/>SR still RuLz though!<warezdood/off>
>
> You forgot to replace the letters with numbers to show hoe 'leet you are.
> Geeze does nobody here hang out with real computer underground people heheh
> ;) Hell I still remember when it was still "cool" and not a sign you are
> just a lame script-kiddy playing with NetBus.
>
> So translated to 'leetspeak it should be "SR Ru73Z Y0 y0 Y0. gR33tZ a77!"
>
> Hey Allen, you have a better translation?
>

I can never resist a challenge :-) these days, it seems you need to use
*all* the characters in the ascii set *except* the actual letters. So
I'd have to say that "sR |s |<3\/\/L, and R00lZ f@**\/eR"

Remeber, actual legibility is not an issue :-)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLE IN FENESTRA
Message no. 5
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:25:45 +0200
Allen Versfeld wrote:
>

> >
> > > <warezdood/>SR still RuLz though!<warezdood/off>
> >


oops... I forgot to snip all those irrelevant pages... Sowwy!
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLE IN FENESTRA
Message no. 6
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:55:17 -0500 (EST)
vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
> Okay, so ..I've brought this up before on AOL, but, why does everyone
> love to bash White Wolf?

It's partly the Goth/LARP thing, which a few folks took overboard. Some of
the larger cons have quite the spectacle.

Some of it is the munchkinism the game inspired in a few folks. Particularly
the way each successive game introduced more powerful PCs.

Some of it was the continual second edition syndrome of the WOD games.
(why spend money on the first, when the second will be so much better and
out in two years?)

I think their product has improved, and their editing has certainly gotten
much better over the last 3 years.

And WW isn't all WOD, Trinity and Aberrant are two extremely cool games set
in a completely different universe.
Message no. 7
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:22:38 +0100
Okay,...so I'm a moron...

WoD: World of Darkness
WW: White Wolf
Goth: Tragically hip, damned, mellodramatic, black haired, depressed vampire
wannabe's (*DV8 runs for cover :)
LARP: ???

What the heck is it?

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 8
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:28:49 -0700
At 16:22 3/2/00 +0100, Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:

>LARP: ???

Live Action Role-Playing

Adam
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / UIN 2350330>
Message no. 9
From: Logan Graves shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:30:19 -500
In our last episode, Richard Tomasso wrote:
>
> And WW isn't all WOD, Trinity and Aberrant are two extremely
> cool games set in a completely different universe.

And let's not forget "HÖL" from their Black Dog line! ;-)

--Fenris
______________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
(>) Today is Election Day, and we urge all citizens
to vote NO with the weapon of their choice.
(>) XHaDO Radio, "The Voice of Anarchy"
Message no. 10
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:26:17 +0000 (GMT)
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Okay,...so I'm a moron...
>
> WoD: World of Darkness
> WW: White Wolf
> Goth: Tragically hip, damned, mellodramatic, black haired, depressed vampire
> wannabe's (*DV8 runs for cover :)
> LARP: Live Action Role-Playing. Dressing up and hitting each other with
rubber swords...

>
> What the heck is it?

Quite a bit of fun, actually.

(This is LRP in general, not WW LRP)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:06:40 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 2-Mar-100 Re: [OT] White Wolf by Richard
Tomasso@*******.
> It's partly the Goth/LARP thing, which a few folks took overboard. Some of
> the larger cons have quite the spectacle.

I'm not clear on what people have against LARPs, and what a LARP has
to do with the goth thing. To me, it sounds like a lot of fun to get
into costume and role-play for a few hours, and there is no concept of
"overboard" when it comes to costuming. I mean, I'd rather be in an SR
LARP than a WW LARP, but unless you've got a problem with the WW game
itself, they're not that different.
If you have a problem with the concept of a LARP, or you don't like
the typical WW gamer, I can understand why you would take offense to a
WW LARP. I think a lot of people are being overly unfair to WW LARPs
just because a few of the gamers are annoying, regardless of whether
they're LARPing at the time.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:54:47 -0500
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:55:17 -0500 (EST) Richard Tomasso
<rtomasso@*******.com> writes:
> vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
> > Okay, so ..I've brought this up before on AOL, but, why does
> everyone
> > love to bash White Wolf?
>
> It's partly the Goth/LARP thing, which a few folks took overboard.
> Some of
> the larger cons have quite the spectacle.

I have not been, but I have heard....of course, they also have
SailorMoonies and other assorted ...people? :-)


> Some of it is the munchkinism the game inspired in a few folks.
> Particularly
> the way each successive game introduced more powerful PCs.

Werewolf is more munchy than Vampire, Mage is just wierd. Wraith and
Changeling are not more powerful though, and Hunters get trounced.

> Some of it was the continual second edition syndrome of the WOD
> games.
> (why spend money on the first, when the second will be so much
> better and
> out in two years?)

Two years wouldn't have been bad :-) Vampire 2 came out a year after 1,
Werewolf also.
I got so tired of it, I held off buying Changeling for a long time,
waiting for 2nd ed.
Finally I got it, and then saw the press release for 2nd edition a week
later.

> I think their product has improved, and their editing has certainly
> gotten
> much better over the last 3 years.

Yeppers

> And WW isn't all WOD, Trinity and Aberrant are two extremely cool
> games set
> in a completely different universe.

Never tried either truthfully, just not into the genre's.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 13
From: Lurch lurch@****.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:17:53 -0600
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> I'm not clear on what people have against LARPs, and what a LARP has
> to do with the goth thing.

I think it primarily stems from the LARP version of Vampire: The
Masquerade (the first LARP to really gain any nationwide attention),
which has a history of attracting a large number of goths, goth
wanna-be's, "spooky kids" and other assorted "misfits" to its ranks
(along with an even larger number of so-called "normal" folk, but who
notices *them*? <g>).

The average Joe Wageslave tends to have a bit of a problem with goth
types in the first place, and when coupled with the high press Vampire
LARPs have received to make them seem like the *only* LARP in town and
the all-too-frequently-bad acting/stereotyping found in said Vampire
LARPs (and no, I've never played, but I've seen enough to speak from a
fairly safe vantage point -- honestly, how can vampires blend into
society when they all wear either rubber bondage outfits or clothing 300
years out of date?) it makes them view the whole LARP scene (WW or not)
as "that stupid vampire-wannabe thing".

Admittedly, some LARPers are truly irritating in their affected "effete,
angsty, beautiful and superior immortal" mode (but then, so are a lot of
non-LARPing goths <g>), and can give goths, LARPs and gaming in general
a bad name, but more often I think people need to look past the goth and
see the game (or gamer) within.

--
Lurch
http://yourang.freeservers.com
"Sic gorgiamus allo subjectatus nunc"
Message no. 14
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:29:13 +0000 (GMT)
> Admittedly, some LARPers are truly irritating in their affected "effete,
> angsty, beautiful and superior immortal" mode (but then, so are a lot of
> non-LARPing goths <g>), and can give goths, LARPs and gaming in general
> a bad name, but more often I think people need to look past the goth and
> see the game (or gamer) within.

When you say things like this, PLEASE don't forget to make the distinction
by calling them WW-LARPS or something. some of us quite enjoy LARPing.
Fantasy LARPing in particular...

In fact, the whole fantasy LARP thing was created over here in the UK back
in 1982 by a place called "Treasure Trap". When that shut down, all its
members moved on, and some formed alternatives including "Spirit of
Adventure", "Labyrinth" and loads of others...

The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:18:56 +0000
> In fact, the whole fantasy LARP thing was created over here in the UK back
> in 1982 by a place called "Treasure Trap". When that shut down, all its
> members moved on, and some formed alternatives including "Spirit of
> Adventure", "Labyrinth" and loads of others...
>
> The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
> be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...

Amen :)
Message no. 16
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 04:24:14 -0500
At 06:29 PM 3/3/00 +0000, you wrote:
>> Admittedly, some LARPers are truly irritating in their affected "effete,
>> angsty, beautiful and superior immortal" mode (but then, so are a lot of
>> non-LARPing goths <g>), and can give goths, LARPs and gaming in general
>> a bad name, but more often I think people need to look past the goth and
>> see the game (or gamer) within.
>
>When you say things like this, PLEASE don't forget to make the distinction
>by calling them WW-LARPS or something. some of us quite enjoy LARPing.
>Fantasy LARPing in particular...
>
>In fact, the whole fantasy LARP thing was created over here in the UK back
>in 1982 by a place called "Treasure Trap". When that shut down, all its
>members moved on, and some formed alternatives including "Spirit of
>Adventure", "Labyrinth" and loads of others...
>
>The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
>be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...
>
There are FUN (I assume that's supposed to be an N :)), Action packed
Larps? All the ones I've ever seen people stand around and brood, and talk
about how Angsty they are.

LARPs look REALLY boring :]

Of course... I want to run a Star Wars larp... using Laser Tag guns and
and those toy Lightsabers :]

Or a fantasy LARP using padded weapons and stuff...

Or Live Action Bloodbowl :] Padding is optional :]

Bull
Message no. 17
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:57:10 +0000 (GMT)
> There are FUN (I assume that's supposed to be an N :)), Action packed
> Larps? All the ones I've ever seen people stand around and brood, and talk
> about how Angsty they are.
>
> LARPs look REALLY boring :]

As I said, those have no excuse to be calling themselves LARPs because there
isn't any "A".

:)

> Of course... I want to run a Star Wars larp... using Laser Tag guns and
> and those toy Lightsabers :]
>
> Or a fantasy LARP using padded weapons and stuff...

Exactly. Running around the countryside in fantasy costume/chainmail with
a rubber sword, smeggin' orks and trolls into the floor and shouting "I call
on the power of the mighty dragon to aid me in this fight! Breath on him
with all your MIGHT! DRAGON BREATH!"... There's nothing like it...

Then there's the running for your life when there's a bunch of monsters
charging you and you can't hurt 'em...

Great fun...
:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Lurch lurch@****.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:42:17 -0600
Spike wrote:
>
> When you say things like this, PLEASE don't forget to make the distinction
> by calling them WW-LARPS or something. some of us quite enjoy LARPing.
> Fantasy LARPing in particular...
>
> The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
> be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...

Very true, and my apologies. I have yet to hear of anyone complaining
about a non-WoD LARP on this list, so when I spoke about the negativity
surrounding LARPS, I (mistakenly) assumed everyone would know I was
referring to WoD-LARPs specifically. The points I was trying to make
were:

1. Not all LARPS are WoD-oriented, and run the entire gamut of gaming
genres, from fantasy to sci-fi and everything in-between -- it only
seems otherwise because of all the media attention the WoD games get;

2. Not all WoD-LARPers are bizarre freaks; and finally,

3. Not all bizarre freaks are WoD-LARPers. :)

Hope this clears up my position better!

--
Lurch
http://yourang.freeservers.com
"Sic gorgiamus allo subjectatus nunc"
Message no. 19
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:17:44 -0800
vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
>
> Werewolf is more munchy than Vampire, Mage is just wierd. Wraith and
> Changeling are not more powerful though, and Hunters get trounced.

Werewolf isn't munchy. Players can be munchy, but the game isn't.

Everything I've heard about how awful and munchkinny Werewolf is (for
example), I've also heard about Shadowrun...two or three times as often.
Not that those are any more true.

My favorite is "In Shadowrun, your character is just an extension of his
gun."

> Two years wouldn't have been bad :-) Vampire 2 came out a year after 1,
> Werewolf also.

Second edition Vampire came out at least 18 months after first.

I hate revisionist history.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 20
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:19:17 -0800
waylex1 wrote:
>
> > The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
> > be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...
>
> Amen :)

God forbid thousands of people actually have *fun* with VLARP. Which is,
as far as I can tell, *real* LARP. Elitism is an ugly thing among
gamers. Honestly.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 21
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:21:38 -0800
Lurch wrote:
>
> Very true, and my apologies. I have yet to hear of anyone complaining
> about a non-WoD LARP on this list, so when I spoke about the negativity

I haven't seen anyone complain about a WoD LARP, either. I've seen
people complain about dearly held and generally false stereotypes, but
those have been waved around since Vampire dared show its face in the
gaming market.

> 2. Not all WoD-LARPers are bizarre freaks; and finally,
> 3. Not all bizarre freaks are WoD-LARPers. :)
> Hope this clears up my position better!

Very clear. Very good. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 22
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:43:25 +0000
li wrote:

> waylex1 wrote:
> >
> > > The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
> > > be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...
> >
> > Amen :)
>
> God forbid thousands of people actually have *fun* with VLARP. Which is,
> as far as I can tell, *real* LARP. Elitism is an ugly thing among
> gamers. Honestly.

If you are going to quote, quote an entire reference. I was agreeing with the first
paragraph that mentioned differences between the two, and that all LARPs seem to be
lumped in the same category.

For the record I have played Vampire LRP, in two systems for 3 years. And no I am
not a goth I just like a variety of systems.
Message no. 23
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 17:20:25 -0800
waylex1 wrote:
>
> If you are going to quote, quote an entire reference. I was agreeing with the first
> paragraph that mentioned differences between the two, and that all LARPs seem to be
> lumped in the same category.

Then it is best to snip the parts you disagree with. As written, your
message indicates you agreed with everything quoted.

> For the record I have played Vampire LRP, in two systems for 3 years. And no I am
> not a goth I just like a variety of systems.

I've LARPed since 1994, played Vampire since 1991 and Shadowrun since
August, 1989.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 24
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:47:52 +0200
Spike wrote:
>
>
> The crappy Vampire crap didn't appear until a few years ago, and should NOT
> be lumped in with REAL, FUM, ACTION PACKED, LARP...
>

LARP! Fum and profit for the whole family?

I just couldn't resist :-)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLE IN FENESTRA
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:42:53 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, at 16:17 on 5 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> Werewolf isn't munchy. Players can be munchy, but the game isn't.

IMnsHO, many gamers make the mistake of thinking certain games are
munchkin, when they've been exposed to _gamers_ who play those games in a
munchkin way.

> My favorite is "In Shadowrun, your character is just an extension of his
> gun."

Maybe it's me, but I don't understand that statement at all...

> > Two years wouldn't have been bad :-) Vampire 2 came out a year after 1,
> > Werewolf also.
>
> Second edition Vampire came out at least 18 months after first.

Still, it's rather fast if you ask me. It has struck me how fast second
editions of WW games appear (and it makes me wonder how hard it is to find
something in the first edition books, because I never can inthe supposedly
revised second edition...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:51:58 -0800
Gurth wrote:
>
> > Werewolf isn't munchy. Players can be munchy, but the game isn't.
>
> IMnsHO, many gamers make the mistake of thinking certain games are
> munchkin, when they've been exposed to _gamers_ who play those games in a
> munchkin way.

100% agreed on this point. I suppose that liking games that many
consider mutually exclusive helps show the presumptions for what they
are. :-/

> > My favorite is "In Shadowrun, your character is just an extension of his
> > gun."
>
> Maybe it's me, but I don't understand that statement at all...

I didn't either, but I've been solemnly informed that that's what
Shadowrun is all about (I've been told by the same person that he really
likes how I roleplay. I just tell him I picked it up playing Shadowrun).

> > > Two years wouldn't have been bad :-) Vampire 2 came out a year after 1,
> > > Werewolf also.
> >
> > Second edition Vampire came out at least 18 months after first.
>
> Still, it's rather fast if you ask me. It has struck me how fast second
> editions of WW games appear (and it makes me wonder how hard it is to find
> something in the first edition books, because I never can inthe supposedly
> revised second edition...)

Between 18 and 30 months. Fast, true. How quickly did SR2 come out after
SR1? I don't recall. It wasn't nearly that fast, but it wasn't more than
a few years. Never mind the intervals between some Call of Cthulhu
editions.

I should also note here that Trinity, Vampire: The Dark Ages and Mage:
The Sorcerer's Crusade don't have second edition rulebooks (I don't
mention Wild West because it seems to be a dead issue).

Really, I think the WW second edition thing is mainly a straw man,
especially since i t happened years ago.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 27
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:12:04 -0500 (EST)
Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
> > Still, it's rather fast if you ask me. It has struck me how fast second
> > editions of WW games appear
>
> Between 18 and 30 months. Fast, true. How quickly did SR2 come out after
> SR1? I don't recall.

3 years (SR1 in 89, SR2 in 92)


> I should also note here that Trinity, Vampire: The Dark Ages and Mage:
> The Sorcerer's Crusade don't have second edition rulebooks ...
>
> Really, I think the WW second edition thing is mainly a straw man,
> especially since it happened years ago.

But they did do it for all their WoD games, it did become a running joke
among many people I know after it happened for Vampire and Werewolf.

They haven't put one out for the games you mentioned b/c they don't need to.
Which is a good thing.
Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:27:42 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, at 1:51 on 6 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> > IMnsHO, many gamers make the mistake of thinking certain games are
> > munchkin, when they've been exposed to _gamers_ who play those games in a
> > munchkin way.
>
> 100% agreed on this point.

The other way around is also true, IMHO. There are some games that pretty
much everyone you're going to meet (okay, that's an exaggeration)
considers munchkinous, but it's easily possible to play them in another
way, that those same people don't think of as munchkinous at all.

Then, of course, there are those who simply don't know what they're
talking about at all :)

> I suppose that liking games that many consider mutually exclusive helps
> show the presumptions for what they are. :-/

I'll give any RPG that someone lets me play a chance. Too bad it's usually
me who has to buy the book to try out the game in the first place... :)

> > Still, it's rather fast if you ask me. It has struck me how fast second
> > editions of WW games appear (and it makes me wonder how hard it is to find
> > something in the first edition books, because I never can inthe supposedly
> > revised second edition...)
>
> Between 18 and 30 months. Fast, true. How quickly did SR2 come out after
> SR1? I don't recall.

Three years: SR1 was 1989, SRII was 1992 (I bought my SR1 rulebook around
the time the second edition was released, but as I'd never really heard of
the game before, how was I to know that? :)

> Really, I think the WW second edition thing is mainly a straw man,
> especially since i t happened years ago.

Agreed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:27:11 -0800
Richard Tomasso wrote:
>
> But they did do it for all their WoD games, it did become a running joke
> among many people I know after it happened for Vampire and Werewolf.

And the games needed it.

Let's just say that first edition development was in nearly every case
heavily flawed and filled with weird concepts. *Then* a developer took
over the line and had to pick up the pieces. Hence the need for second
editions within two years.

(and I'm not sure that three years is necessarily better)

> They haven't put one out for the games you mentioned b/c they don't need to.
> Which is a good thing.

Well, it's good not to have to buy a game two or three times, but if you
have a distinct improvement, it's not a bad thing.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 30
From: kawaii kawaii@********.org
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:28:54 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Gurth wrote:

> The other way around is also true, IMHO. There are some games that pretty
> much everyone you're going to meet (okay, that's an exaggeration)
> considers munchkinous, but it's easily possible to play them in another
> way, that those same people don't think of as munchkinous at all.
>

Like Rifts? =) MEGA DAMAGE! ;)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 31
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:37:19 +0000 (GMT)
> I've LARPed since 1994, played Vampire since 1991 and Shadowrun since
> August, 1989.

I've LARPed since 1988, Roleplayed since 1989, and Shadowran since about
1990/91(ish).

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 32
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:17:24 -0800
Spike wrote:
>
> > I've LARPed since 1994, played Vampire since 1991 and Shadowrun since
> > August, 1989.
>
> I've LARPed since 1988, Roleplayed since 1989, and Shadowran since about
> 1990/91(ish).

I've played RPGs since 1980. I've been involved with fantasy LARpers off
and on since 1984 but no real interest in fantasy LARPs. I am interested
in the Vampire LARPs based on WW's games. You would rather this game
you're admittedly not interested in did not exist?

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 33
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:19:56 -0800
kawaii wrote:
>
> Like Rifts? =) MEGA DAMAGE! ;)

SENZAR!

As far as I'm concerned, if Rifts can pull in sales and new gamers, more
power to Palladium.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 34
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:59:21 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, at 14:19 on 6 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> As far as I'm concerned, if Rifts can pull in sales and new gamers, more
> power to Palladium.

If only they're not put off by the poor explanations, layout and editing
:)

Note that I'm going by Deluxe Revised Recon(R) <-- very important with a
Palladium game ;) here, which is very interesting in concept to me, but
the book is so poorly done that it's very hard to get through and
understand everything they're trying to say... I have no idea if Rifts is
similar, but if it's put together by the same people, I'm expecting the
worst :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:03:25 +0000 (GMT)
> Note that I'm going by Deluxe Revised Recon(R) <-- very important with a
> Palladium game ;) here, which is very interesting in concept to me, but
> the book is so poorly done that it's very hard to get through and
> understand everything they're trying to say... I have no idea if Rifts is
> similar, but if it's put together by the same people, I'm expecting the
> worst :)

It can be in places...
Number of psionic actions per rounds for example...
Where would you put it? In the psionics secion, or the combat section?
(They put it in combat)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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