Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:03:15 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, March 06, 2000 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)


>D&D: 66%
>Vampire the Masquerade: 25%
>Star Wars: 21%
>Shadowrun: 15%
>Werewolf: 15%
>Star Trek: 12%
>Call of Cthulhu: 8%
>Deadlands: 5%
>GURPS: 3%
>
>Make of these numbers what you will.
>
Hmmm, with a bit of ASCII art, I could make a rather dirty picture of these
numbers
Message no. 2
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:46:39 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: vocenoctum@****.com <vocenoctum@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)


>On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:04:22 -0500 Strago <strago@***.com> writes:
>> You know why I'm bitter at White Wolf? Because the only place I can
>> get any
>> Shadowrun books that aren't BBB is a gaming store which is never
>> open while
>> I'm free! Instead the bookstores carry AD&D books at WoD books!
>> Bitter! I'm
>> bitter! I need MITS! I need MITS! *veg*
>>
>
>Me too, I have sworn off buying stuff at my (useless) gaming store. I buy
>my Vampire stuff at a regular store, and FASA stuff gets mail ordered.
>
>But you know what, its FASA's fault for trying to "help" the gaming
>stores.
>All FASA products (except novels) are not available to "regular" book
>stores for a month after release.
>This way Gaming stores can more easily compete with the "chains"
>
>So, IOW, blame FASA, not White Wolf :-)
>
>Vocenoctum


BAH! Where I live we have NO gaming stores, and book stores definitely do
not stock any role playing games. What kind of Utopia do you live in,
anyway?
Message no. 3
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:05:49 -0500
On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 03:49:41 -0500 Bull <bull@***********.com> writes:
> S'okay... I'd rather be the topic of an OT conversation, than
> embroiled in
> a flame war over the current line of SR proucts...
>
> If we need to flame about a product... let's bash White Wolf...
> They're
> always fun to mock...

Okay, so ..I've brought this up before on AOL, but, why does everyone
love to bash White Wolf? (NOT specifying Bull, this is just a topic I've
brought up before)
The most common answer is the Goth/LARP thing, but they are really a
small portion of Vampire. (They don't even keep the LARP rulebook in
print, since it sells so poorly)
I know for some people, its SourGrapes (Vampire IS #3 selling I believe,
and Werewolf tied with SR for #5 IIRC, no mention of Mage, but its most
liekly still in teh top-10)

The products (like SR or any other product which experiences various
developers IMO) have ranged in quality and attitude over the years, but
currently, the products are very good (and, on time, usually :-)


And, we can reply to any OT thread as long as Bull started it, right? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 4
From: Logan Graves Logan@************.virtualAve.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:06:04 -0500
In our last episode, vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
>
> Okay, so ..I've brought this up before on AOL, but, why does everyone
> love to bash White Wolf? (NOT specifying Bull, this is just a topic I've
> brought up before)

That's a good question. For some reason, I always feel like a heretic, when the
subject of WoD comes up on this mail list. I think it has something to do with
the fact that WoD is *close* enough to the SR Universe that it appears to be a
knock-off to the "Pure" SR folks. Kinda makes you wonder how those hardcore
Cyberpunk2020 players view SR gamers?

> I know for some people, its SourGrapes (Vampire IS #3 selling I believe,
> and Werewolf tied with SR for #5 IIRC, no mention of Mage, but its most
> liekly still in teh top-10)

Having moved around quite a bit, I've found that it's more difficult to find SR
players than WoD players in a given locale. Although, it's not at all difficult
to convert folks over to SR.

Unfortunately, in my current circle of gamers (all of whom are older than 25),
it's difficult to find a single night of the week that all can agree upon.
This has lead to two unfortunate things:
1) SR took a backseat last year, to our WoD:Mage/Werewolf campaign.
2) the SR game dried up this year & we had to start a PBeM to supplement the WoD
one. ;-(
(Good thing I can still get my "SR fix" on IRC!)

> The products (like SR or any other product which experiences various
> developers IMO) have ranged in quality and attitude over the years, but
> currently, the products are very good (and, on time, usually :-)

I agree, WW has some very good products (the "Dark Adventures" book comes to
mind) & some not-so-good ones. Like FASA, they have some highly talented
writers too--at least one of which has been known to subscribe to the ShadowRN
list (right Kali?) And their website doesn't compare too poorly to FASA's
<--note that this wasn't a compliment!

> And, we can reply to any OT thread as long as Bull started it, right? :-)

Is *that* in the FAQ? It oughta be! ;-)

--Fenris
______________________________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
(>) Today is Election Day, and we urge all citizens
to vote NO with the weapon of their choice.
(>) XHaDO Radio, "The Voice of Anarchy"
Message no. 5
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:06:27 -0500
> Okay, so ..I've brought this up before on AOL, but, why does everyone
> love to bash White Wolf? (NOT specifying Bull, this is just a topic I've
> brought up before)

Well, I know why Bull does ... the WW players in our area are total freaks.
Not because they play WW games. They'd be freaks no matter what they played!
;-)
I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The experience
can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.

> The most common answer is the Goth/LARP thing, but they are really a
> small portion of Vampire. (They don't even keep the LARP rulebook in
> print, since it sells so poorly)

Your info seems a little off.
WW just released a Second Edition of the LARP rules for Vampire.
The limited edition hardback in OOP, but the softcover is readily available.

I too was once a WW basher, but I completely went nuts for Changeling!
Unfortunately very few of my regular players really "get" the feel of that
game, so I never play, but I anticipate each book for Changeling as much as
I do FASA's SR stuff.
(And since I have EVERYTHING ever published for SR - Yes, I even got another
copy of DMZ - you know that's high praise.)
BTW - Steve Kenson, if you're reading this, I really liked the Enchanted
sourcebook. But the Anton Stark thing was a little much. ;-)

Recently I've been playing some Vampire LARP with a One World by Night group
in Cleveland, and that has changed my attitude about LARPs.
IMO LARPing at a Con is like trying to sleep at a Con - it's just a bad
idea. The games are too big and too chaotic to really be much fun.
However in a smaller group, the scheming and jockeying for position are much
more personal and intense.
Sure there's some wacky goth-types playing, but they're outnumbered by good
players, so they rarely cause trouble.

What's my point?
I guess that WW bashing can be cured. You just have to want to stop first.
;-)

<warezdood/>SR still RuLz though!<warezdood/off>

Sorry, it slipped! ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college." -
Louis Black
Message no. 6
From: Logan Graves Logan@************.virtualAve.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:23:33 -0500
In our last episode, "Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
>
<SNIPage, as needed>
> Well, I know why Bull does ... the WW players in our area are total freaks.
> Not because they play WW games. They'd be freaks no matter what they played!
> ;-)

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about those WotC freaks out here.

> I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The experience
> can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
> Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.

Now there's a metaphor that I could have happily gone to bed, NOT having read!
;-)

> (And since I have EVERYTHING ever published for SR - Yes, I even got another
> copy of DMZ - you know that's high praise.)

Drat. I'm still missing a (very) few, SR titles. But I've got ALL the novels!
(Well...except for the *cough* larger "Into the Shadows" *cough*) ;-(
eBay is great for this sort of thing!

--Fenris
______________________________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
(>) Today is Election Day, and we urge all citizens
to vote NO with the weapon of their choice.
(>) XHaDO Radio, "The Voice of Anarchy"
Message no. 7
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:48:36 -0500
Logan Graves wrote:

> In our last episode, "Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
> <snippity snip. Err...>
> > I even offered to let a couple of them play SR with us once. The experience
> > can only be compared to masturbating with a cheese grater.
> > Brief. Intense. But ultimately painful.
>
> Now there's a metaphor that I could have happily gone to bed, NOT having read!
> ;-)

Agreed. Brief, intense, painful, bloody. But, still...Tinner...OW. BAD IMAGE!

John
Message no. 8
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:10:05 +0000 (GMT)
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 03:49:41 -0500 Bull <bull@***********.com> writes:
> The products (like SR or any other product which experiences various
> developers IMO) have ranged in quality and attitude over the years, but
> currently, the products are very good (and, on time, usually :-)

I think it was White Wolfs attitude when they released the games that got on
peoples nerves. (They way they tried to claim that they invented
"Storytelling" when that's what all roleplayers had been doing for years
anyway. They weren't being "innovative" when they "invented" the world
of
darkness.

>
> And, we can reply to any OT thread as long as Bull started it, right? :-)

That reminds me... I've not tried this for a while, but it's worth a shot...

% telnet bullbot.net
login: spike1
password: ******

Welcome

No Mail
% su - root
password: *****
# /sbin/init.d/bullbot restart
bullbot shutting down
bullbot reinitialising
bullbot restarted

# ^D
% ^D
connection closed

:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Logan Graves Logan@************.virtualAve.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:53:16 -0500
In our last episode, Spike wrote:
>
<Snip: WoD stuff>
> > And, we can reply to any OT thread as long as Bull started it, right? :-)
>
> That reminds me... I've not tried this for a while, but it's worth a shot...
>
> % telnet bullbot.net
> login: spike1

<Snip: evil telnet session>

NOW look what you did!!

--Fenris
______________________________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
(>) Even now, on the eve of Election Day, the
campaign battle is undecided. But, inside sources
say Generalissimo Puerco's forces have a strong lead,
holding 26 of the 31 registered ballot stations.
(>) XHaDO, "Free State Radio"
Message no. 10
From: Spike spike1@******
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:34:17 +0000 (GMT)
> In our last episode, Spike wrote:
> >
> <Snip: WoD stuff>
> > > And, we can reply to any OT thread as long as Bull started it, right? :-)
> >
> > That reminds me... I've not tried this for a while, but it's worth a shot...
> >
> > % telnet bullbot.net
> > login: spike1
>
> <Snip: evil telnet session>
>
> NOW look what you did!!

Sorry... It just HAAAD to be done...
:)
Couldn't resist... I'd been holding it back for ages...

<Evil cackle>

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:50:31 -0500
On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:06:27 -0500 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.com> writes:
> > The most common answer is the Goth/LARP thing, but they are really
> a
> > small portion of Vampire. (They don't even keep the LARP rulebook
> in
> > print, since it sells so poorly)
>
> Your info seems a little off.
> WW just released a Second Edition of the LARP rules for Vampire.
> The limited edition hardback in OOP, but the softcover is readily
> available.

I really misstated. when I mean they don't keep it in print, I mean that
they run off a batch of teh LARP rules, let it die, then pick it up a few
years later. Its not a continuous print run kind of thing.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 12
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:57:30 -0500
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:10:05 +0000 (GMT) Spike
<spike1@******@*******.co.uk> writes:
> > On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 03:49:41 -0500 Bull <bull@***********.com>
> writes:
> > The products (like SR or any other product which experiences
> various
> > developers IMO) have ranged in quality and attitude over the
> years, but
> > currently, the products are very good (and, on time, usually :-)
>
> I think it was White Wolfs attitude when they released the games
> that got on
> peoples nerves. (They way they tried to claim that they invented
> "Storytelling" when that's what all roleplayers had been doing for
> years
> anyway. They weren't being "innovative" when they "invented" the
> world of
> darkness.

Yeah, this fell under the "attitude" I mentioned, the early books had the
mood that WW had somehow created this new hobby. Its just a fragging rpg.

The attitude is not so prevalant now (and hasn't been since ReinHagen
left IMO)

For a few years, I just gave up on buying anything, only getting back
into it with Vampire; the Dark Ages.

I have been pleased with a lot of it since then though.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 13
From: Lurch lurch@****.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 21:22:44 -0600
...and when all's said & done, please let's not lose sight of the fact
that not *all* freak/goth types you'll run into at cons and elsewhere
out there are living vicariously through their in-game personae; some of
us have never even set foot in a LARP before (or any WoD game, for that
matter) and are just like that to begin with. ;)

--
Lurch (who owns several WoD games but has yet to actually play one)
http://yourang.freeservers.com
"Sic gorgiamus allo subjectatus nunc"
Message no. 14
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 10:23:06 -0500
At 06:05 PM 3/1/00, vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
>Okay, so ..I've brought this up before on AOL, but, why does everyone
>love to bash White Wolf? (NOT specifying Bull, this is just a topic I've
>brought up before)
>The most common answer is the Goth/LARP thing, but they are really a
>small portion of Vampire. (They don't even keep the LARP rulebook in
>print, since it sells so poorly)
>I know for some people, its SourGrapes (Vampire IS #3 selling I believe,
>and Werewolf tied with SR for #5 IIRC, no mention of Mage, but its most
>liekly still in teh top-10)

Just got this from Pyramid, from an article they did on a WOTC survey.
Seems that the Wizards wanted to do the most scientific survey ever done
about gamers, and just got the results. So, the results for people playing
(not necessarily have bought) a game in the past month, out of a total US
gaming population of 5.5 million:

D&D: 66%
Vampire the Masquerade: 25%
Star Wars: 21%
Shadowrun: 15%
Werewolf: 15%
Star Trek: 12%
Call of Cthulhu: 8%
Deadlands: 5%
GURPS: 3%

Make of these numbers what you will.


Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 15
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:10:04 -0500
On Sun, 05 Mar 2000 10:23:06 -0500 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
> At 06:05 PM 3/1/00, vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
> >I know for some people, its SourGrapes (Vampire IS #3 selling I
> believe,
> >and Werewolf tied with SR for #5 IIRC, no mention of Mage, but its
> most
> >liekly still in teh top-10)
>
> Just got this from Pyramid, from an article they did on a WOTC
> survey.
> Seems that the Wizards wanted to do the most scientific survey ever
> done
> about gamers, and just got the results. So, the results for people
> playing
> (not necessarily have bought) a game in the past month, out of a
> total US
> gaming population of 5.5 million:
>
> D&D: 66%
> Vampire the Masquerade: 25%
> Star Wars: 21%
> Shadowrun: 15%
> Werewolf: 15%
> Star Trek: 12%
> Call of Cthulhu: 8%
> Deadlands: 5%
> GURPS: 3%
>

Yeah, this is what I had read on a column. SW and Vamp have switched back
and forth for a while though.

Also, in case anyone tries to add up the numbers..the same gamer can vote
more than once, so the totals will never add up to 100% :-)

Still surprised that Mage didn't make it, which means that more people
play Call of Cthulhu than Mage, cool :-)


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 16
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:22:30 -0800
vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
>
> The most common answer is the Goth/LARP thing, but they are really a
> small portion of Vampire. (They don't even keep the LARP rulebook in
> print, since it sells so poorly)

Actually, I have to take a moment to interject that Laws of the Night
sells better than most tabletop RPGs.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 17
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:25:07 -0800
Logan Graves wrote:
>

> I agree, WW has some very good products (the "Dark Adventures" book comes
to
> mind) & some not-so-good ones. Like FASA, they have some highly talented
> writers too--at least one of which has been known to subscribe to the ShadowRN
> list (right Kali?)

I'm flattered. :-)

Shadowrun and the WoD are about equal in my personal estimation for what
I like.

And I finally got some people to play Shadowrun! (I had to forcibly stop
the Aberrant game to do it, though).


> And their website doesn't compare too poorly to FASA's
> <--note that this wasn't a compliment!

It's not. Both websites suck.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 18
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:27:02 -0800
Spike wrote:
>
> I think it was White Wolfs attitude when they released the games that got on
> peoples nerves. (They way they tried to claim that they invented
> "Storytelling" when that's what all roleplayers had been doing for years
> anyway. They weren't being "innovative" when they "invented" the
world of
> darkness.

I've got the first edition books - they claim no such thing, although I
have to say the WoD (and Vampire especially) must have done something
right to grab so many fans so quickly.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 19
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:28:18 -0800
vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
>
> I really misstated. when I mean they don't keep it in print, I mean that
> they run off a batch of teh LARP rules, let it die, then pick it up a few
> years later. Its not a continuous print run kind of thing.

You're wrong. They run off new print runs to meet the demand, just like
all the other games. The older LARP books *have* gone out of print, but
Laws of the Night (for example) has been through multiple printings
before the "Revised" edition was released.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 20
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 16:29:13 -0800
Lurch wrote:
>
> ...and when all's said & done, please let's not lose sight of the fact
> that not *all* freak/goth types you'll run into at cons and elsewhere
> out there are living vicariously through their in-game personae; some of
> us have never even set foot in a LARP before (or any WoD game, for that
> matter) and are just like that to begin with. ;)

That's two.

I like you. :-)

Goth != Vampire fan.
Vampire fan != Goth.

You have crossover, but one does not define the other.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 21
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:47:01 +0000
> Spike wrote:
> >
> > I think it was White Wolfs attitude when they released the games that got on
> > peoples nerves. (They way they tried to claim that they invented
> > "Storytelling" when that's what all roleplayers had been doing for
years
> > anyway. They weren't being "innovative" when they "invented"
the world of
> > darkness.
>
> I've got the first edition books - they claim no such thing, although I
> have to say the WoD (and Vampire especially) must have done something
> right to grab so many fans so quickly.

That is true, but the general feel from advertisments and sales material tended to
give that impression from the start. Before you call me a game facist again, I
have over 30 books for vampire and almost as many for werewolf, I like them both a
lot.
Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:01:21 -0800 (PST)
> I've got the first edition books - they claim no
> such thing, although I
> have to say the WoD (and Vampire especially) must
> have done something
> right to grab so many fans so quickly.
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com |

Of COURSE it's going to be popular, Kali. They created
a game where you can play freaking VAMPIRES and go
around killing people and sucking their blood without
qualm, cuz they're just food, really.

C'mon - that's NOT going to take off? WW figured out
the empty niche and swamped it.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 23
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 17:20:48 -0800
waylex1 wrote:
>
> That is true, but the general feel from advertisments and sales material tended to
> give that impression from the start. Before you call me a game facist again, I
> have over 30 books for vampire and almost as many for werewolf, I like them both a
> lot.

Adcopy is meaningless.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 24
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 17:23:03 -0800
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> Of COURSE it's going to be popular, Kali. They created
> a game where you can play freaking VAMPIRES and go
> around killing people and sucking their blood without
> qualm, cuz they're just food, really.

I hope this is some attempt at humor, 'cause that's about 180 degrees
away from the game that was printed in 1991 and revised in 1998. In
fact, as written, characters that run around killing people and sucking
their blood without qualm tend to become berserk NPCs controlled by the
GM. That's what the "Humanity" track is for.

> C'mon - that's NOT going to take off? WW figured out
> the empty niche and swamped it.

And this is such an evil thing to do - exploit an economically viable
and unoccupied niche?

Gamers disgust me.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 25
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:04:22 -0500
vocenoctum@****.com wrote:

> <SNIP>

> > D&D: 66%
> > Vampire the Masquerade: 25%
> > Star Wars: 21%
> > Shadowrun: 15%
> <SNIP.

> Yeah, this is what I had read on a column. SW and Vamp have switched back
> and forth for a while though.
>
> Also, in case anyone tries to add up the numbers..the same gamer can vote
> more than once, so the totals will never add up to 100% :-)
>

<SNIP>
You know why I'm bitter at White Wolf? Because the only place I can get any
Shadowrun books that aren't BBB is a gaming store which is never open while
I'm free! Instead the bookstores carry AD&D books at WoD books! Bitter! I'm
bitter! I need MITS! I need MITS! *veg*

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce?
The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 26
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:33:07 +0200
Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
>
> Rand Ratinac wrote:
> >
> > Of COURSE it's going to be popular, Kali. They created
> > a game where you can play freaking VAMPIRES and go
> > around killing people and sucking their blood without
> > qualm, cuz they're just food, really.
>
> I hope this is some attempt at humor, 'cause that's about 180 degrees
> away from the game that was printed in 1991 and revised in 1998. In
> fact, as written, characters that run around killing people and sucking
> their blood without qualm tend to become berserk NPCs controlled by the
> GM. That's what the "Humanity" track is for.
>
> > C'mon - that's NOT going to take off? WW figured out
> > the empty niche and swamped it.
>
> And this is such an evil thing to do - exploit an economically viable
> and unoccupied niche?
>
> Gamers disgust me.
>

Whoah, safari! This is getting really religious really quickly. Mebbe
y'all should start including smileys, or summing to let people know
you're not really going for the jugular, it just looks that way?
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLE IN FENESTRA
Message no. 27
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:47:52 -0800
Strago wrote:
>
> You know why I'm bitter at White Wolf? Because the only place I can get any
> Shadowrun books that aren't BBB is a gaming store which is never open while
> I'm free! Instead the bookstores carry AD&D books at WoD books! Bitter! I'm
> bitter! I need MITS! I need MITS! *veg*

You're clearly in need of an intervention.

Can someone get this person an MitS? Quickly, lest death sets in!

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 28
From: Damian Robinson robinson_dg@*********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 18:58:37 +1000
Allen Versfeld wrote:

<Snippage...>

> Whoah, safari! This is getting really religious really quickly.
> Mebbe y'all should start including smileys, or summing to let
> people know you're not really going for the jugular, it just looks
> that way?
> --

</Lurk>

Considering the topic at hand, you could have picked a better turn of
phrase...

Or was it a deliberate pun?

(Oh god I hope so!"

<Lurk>
--
Cheers
Damian & Leigh-anne

Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/

ICQ?
His #14030875
Hers #37896626

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can
adequately be explained by stupidity.
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:42:53 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, at 17:23 on 5 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> > Of COURSE it's going to be popular, Kali. They created
> > a game where you can play freaking VAMPIRES and go
> > around killing people and sucking their blood without
> > qualm, cuz they're just food, really.
>
> I hope this is some attempt at humor, 'cause that's about 180 degrees
> away from the game that was printed in 1991 and revised in 1998. In
> fact, as written, characters that run around killing people and sucking
> their blood without qualm tend to become berserk NPCs controlled by the
> GM. That's what the "Humanity" track is for.

But it does seem to me that a great many players do it that way
nonetheless, even though when you read the book it's rather obvious you're
"supposed" to try and stay as human as you can. (FWIW, my V:TM character
has serious trouble doing much of anything wrong, what with a Humanity of
9 and all :)

> > C'mon - that's NOT going to take off? WW figured out
> > the empty niche and swamped it.
>
> And this is such an evil thing to do - exploit an economically viable
> and unoccupied niche?

Depends on what reason you're doing it for, IMO...

> Gamers disgust me.

Then I guess you don't have mirrors in your house, right? ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:57:47 -0800
Gurth wrote:
>
> But it does seem to me that a great many players do it that way
> nonetheless, even though when you read the book it's rather obvious you're
> "supposed" to try and stay as human as you can. (FWIW, my V:TM character
> has serious trouble doing much of anything wrong, what with a Humanity of
> 9 and all :)

Humanity 9...he's a tragedy waiting to happen.

Yes, people do play it that way. People also play Shadowrun without
essence restrictions on cyberware and with Delta-grade gear available to
new characters *koff*Ivy*koff*, but the players don't define the game.

> > > C'mon - that's NOT going to take off? WW figured out
> > > the empty niche and swamped it.
> >
> > And this is such an evil thing to do - exploit an economically viable
> > and unoccupied niche?
>
> Depends on what reason you're doing it for, IMO...

Well, I expect they did it because they wanted to and they thought it'd
make money. Neither of which is a bad or reprehensible motive.

> > Gamers disgust me.
>
> Then I guess you don't have mirrors in your house, right? ;)

I'm not a gamer any more. I'm a freelancer. I've evolved to a step away.
:-)

Seriously, it's tiring to see people - ostensibly fellow gamers -
trashing the games they don't like in the most offensive terms possible
with *no critical redeeming value* to said commentary. Gaming's a rather
small hobby with a lot of crossover. It really doesn't have room for the
kind of prejudice that grows like hothouse flowers in said hobby.

Bleah.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 31
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 05:46:33 -0500
At 01:57 AM 3/6/00 -0800, you wrote:

Since I started this mess by joking about picking on WW instead of FASA...
Let's try and at least clear my own name here. The rest of you are on your
own :]


First off... Yes, I am a bit biased towards the WoD games, for several
reasons.

1) There are 2 WoD games going on that I know of, plus a couple of LARPs
in CLevland, one in Kent, and one in Akron. (I'm in the Cleveland area).

Of these... There isn;'t a one of the WoD tabletop players I'd ever want
to play with. They're either the Uber-goth wannabes who constantly talk
about how "angsty" they are, or they're Munchkins extrordinaire... For
example, I overheard one game going on at our local college Gamers' Guild,
and they were playing a Werewolf game, and they had just killed "the Worm".
make of that what you will. ((They played most of the WW games, btw, and
this sort of ending to their games was NOT unusual).

Of the LARPs, I've heard MOSTLY good things about one of the local
Cleveland ones (Tinner plays in it),. though some of the players get a
little TOO in to it, from what I've seen. The other game is, from what
I've heard, a mega cutthroat super powered game.

The Akron game is just boring and lame, from all reports (Mostly people
hanging around going "I'm goth! Look at me!"), and the Kent game is
basically an excuse to "roleplay" sec and drugs.

So my personaly at home experience with the game leaves something to be
desired.

2) Convention gamers are freaks :] Granted, this applies to all games and
gamers, and it's a running joke with me and some guys to mock the Vamp
LARPers cause some of them take their game SO seriously :]

And at Origins, I've ehard from a couple friends who gave it a shot that
unless you're part of the GM's "clique" of friends, you have no hope in
hell of actually getting involved in the actual plot. Basically outside of
the GMs friends, everyoine else is a glorified NPC... Whoopee :]

3) I personally do not like the WoD. I don;t like games that are
depressing, and let's face it... WoD is DEPRESSING. You're SUpposed to
eventually succumb to whatever the "bad" side of your character is.

Don;t get me wrong... I'd love to play a mixed game (mostly changeling,
with a few othe the others thrown in for fun) that used Mercedes Lackey's
Serrated Edge/Urban Fantasies setting rather than the overly bleak WoD
setting. But as it stands, nothing about the game world appeals to me.

4) The comment "Let's mock go mock WW instead" was made to try and
alleviate what was potentially becoming flammable situation regarding an
SR3 discussion :]

5) If you enjoy playing WW and the WoD, more power to you. If you take
yourself too seriously, I will abuse you :] But that holds true to any
gamer at a convention :] (I pick on the die hard trekkies even more than I
do LARPers :)).

>Yes, people do play it that way. People also play Shadowrun without
>essence restrictions on cyberware and with Delta-grade gear available to
>new characters *koff*Ivy*koff*, but the players don't define the game.
>
Every time I think I've forgotten her... <sigh>

:]

>I'm not a gamer any more. I'm a freelancer. I've evolved to a step away.
>:-)
>
<Bull pulls out a red and white orb and throws it out>

"I choose you, Freelancer!"

>Seriously, it's tiring to see people - ostensibly fellow gamers -
>trashing the games they don't like in the most offensive terms possible
>with *no critical redeeming value* to said commentary. Gaming's a rather
>small hobby with a lot of crossover. It really doesn't have room for the
>kind of prejudice that grows like hothouse flowers in said hobby.
>
The problem is, we're not picking on other games usually... We're lazy
enough to generalize, so it seems that way. But really, we're picking on a
specific portion of the gamers of said game (In my case, the freaks and
munchies taht play WW). Shadowrun gets it just as much because it's SOOOO
easy to munch out and abuse SR (Go pick up SJG's Munchkin handbook to see
what they say about the subject).

Look it as a freindly rivarly :]

(Except for Chartmaster, I mean Rollmaster... I loath that game for what
it is. I know no one who actually plays it either :))

Bull
Message no. 32
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 02:56:51 -0800
Bull wrote:
>
<snip>

Thanks for the explanation, although none of my statements were aimed at
you, Bull. :-)

> >Yes, people do play it that way. People also play Shadowrun without
> >essence restrictions on cyberware and with Delta-grade gear available to
> >new characters *koff*Ivy*koff*, but the players don't define the game.
> >
> Every time I think I've forgotten her... <sigh>
> :]

A hobgoblin to vex you.

> "I choose you, Freelancer!"

Wait! You have to get your pokedeveloper to defeat me in combat! Or
manuscript redlines.

> The problem is, we're not picking on other games usually... We're lazy
> enough to generalize, so it seems that way. But really, we're picking on a
> specific portion of the gamers of said game (In my case, the freaks and
> munchies taht play WW). Shadowrun gets it just as much because it's SOOOO
> easy to munch out and abuse SR (Go pick up SJG's Munchkin handbook to see
> what they say about the subject).

Ha! I know one of the authors, and he's a riot. He plays Vampre LARP (in
England) faithfully. I got to meet him last year at the Camarilla (the
fan club) convention. :-)

He's a freak. I suspect that if he weren't larping, he'd be in the
Scottish moors, building bombs in a shack and muttering about something
incomprehensible-yet-important-sounding.

I know few games that are hard to twink out. I don't worry about it. :-)
After all, I'm not buying their books.

> Look it as a freindly rivarly :]

Friendly if flesh wounds are love bites. :-)

> (Except for Chartmaster, I mean Rollmaster... I loath that game for what
> it is. I know no one who actually plays it either :))

I know of people who play it. I don't.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 33
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 06:05:02 -0500
At 02:56 AM 3/6/00 -0800, you wrote:

><snip>
>
>Thanks for the explanation, although none of my statements were aimed at
>you, Bull. :-)
>
No probs, and as I said... I started this mess somehow (Me, start a long,
drawn out OT thread? Never! :))

Plus some of the earlier comments by others were aimed at me, directly or
indirectly :]

>> Every time I think I've forgotten her... <sigh>
>> :]
>
>A hobgoblin to vex you.
>
I have one of those, thanks you. It's a Rigger character one of my guys
plays sometimes :]

>> "I choose you, Freelancer!"
>
>Wait! You have to get your pokedeveloper to defeat me in combat! Or
>manuscript redlines.
>
<grin> I'm just hoping to reach taht evolution one of these days myself :]

>He's a freak. I suspect that if he weren't larping, he'd be in the
>Scottish moors, building bombs in a shack and muttering about something
>incomprehensible-yet-important-sounding.
>
<laugh>

I know more than a few guys like that :]

>> Look it as a freindly rivarly :]
>
>Friendly if flesh wounds are love bites. :-)
>
Depends on how kinky you are, I guess :] Me... Love bites :]

Bull
Message no. 34
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:35:03 +0200
Bull wrote:
>
>
> Look it as a freindly rivarly :]
>
> (Except for Chartmaster, I mean Rollmaster... I loath that game for what
> it is. I know no one who actually plays it either :))
>

*ahem*

My most meaningful roleplaying experiences happened in rolemaster...
the level of character involvement that has parents and school
counselers burning books in the street.

Mind you, the GM at the time (this is where I got it from, btw) was of
the "Rules? We don't need no steenkeeng rules!" school, and never let
us read the books. I know what you mean about charts - Combat alone has
an A4 page for each separate weapon, listing all possible attack rolls
against all possible armour types, with cross references to damage
charts for critical hits (which themselves took up about 10 pages, IIRC)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 35
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 18:47:22 +0000
> Look it as a freindly rivarly :]
> >
> > (Except for Chartmaster, I mean Rollmaster... I loath that game for what
> > it is. I know no one who actually plays it either :))
> >

How can you mock any game with a "person fired out of catapult" table.
Message no. 36
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:57:13 -0500
At 06:47 PM 3/6/00 +0000, you wrote:
>> Look it as a freindly rivarly :]
>> >
>> > (Except for Chartmaster, I mean Rollmaster... I loath that game for what
>> > it is. I know no one who actually plays it either :))
>> >
>
>How can you mock any game with a "person fired out of catapult" table.
>
Better yet... How can you *NOT* mock such a game :]

Bull
Message no. 37
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:22:07 -0800
Bull wrote:
>
> No probs, and as I said... I started this mess somehow (Me, start a long,
> drawn out OT thread? Never! :))

It's a curse?

> Plus some of the earlier comments by others were aimed at me, directly or
> indirectly :]

Imagine. :-)

> >> Every time I think I've forgotten her... <sigh>
> >> :]
> >
> >A hobgoblin to vex you.
> >
> I have one of those, thanks you. It's a Rigger character one of my guys
> plays sometimes :]

Okay, I need a plausibly bad example to invoke. And they're all true!

> <grin> I'm just hoping to reach taht evolution one of these days myself :]

It's not hard. That is, after all, what conventions are for. :-)

> I know more than a few guys like that :]

Don't we all?

> Depends on how kinky you are, I guess :] Me... Love bites :]

I always felt that taking chunks out of a partner was a bad plan.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 38
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:14:23 -0500
On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:04:22 -0500 Strago <strago@***.com> writes:
> You know why I'm bitter at White Wolf? Because the only place I can
> get any
> Shadowrun books that aren't BBB is a gaming store which is never
> open while
> I'm free! Instead the bookstores carry AD&D books at WoD books!
> Bitter! I'm
> bitter! I need MITS! I need MITS! *veg*
>

Me too, I have sworn off buying stuff at my (useless) gaming store. I buy
my Vampire stuff at a regular store, and FASA stuff gets mail ordered.

But you know what, its FASA's fault for trying to "help" the gaming
stores.
All FASA products (except novels) are not available to "regular" book
stores for a month after release.
This way Gaming stores can more easily compete with the "chains"

So, IOW, blame FASA, not White Wolf :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 39
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:18:10 -0500
On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 05:46:33 -0500 Bull <bull@***********.com> writes:
> 4) The comment "Let's mock go mock WW instead" was made to try and
> alleviate what was potentially becoming flammable situation
> regarding an
> SR3 discussion :]
>

Actually, I started it off you (and see how long an OT thread based on
Bull can go? :-)

It was not because of YOU, it was just a general question because a lot
of people actually DO feel that way about White Wolf, for no real reason.

Just figured I'd ask.
And hey, it did distract from that flammable situation didn't it? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:36:59 -0800 (PST)
> > Of COURSE it's going to be popular, Kali. They
created a game where you can play freaking VAMPIRES
and go around killing people and sucking their blood
without qualm, cuz they're just food, really.
>
> I hope this is some attempt at humor, 'cause that's
about 180 degrees away from the game that was printed
in 1991 and revised in 1998. In fact, as written,
characters that run around killing people and sucking
their blood without qualm tend to become berserk NPCs
controlled by the GM. That's what the "Humanity" track
is for.

Actually, Kali, I think just about everyone but you
would have found it amusing. :)

The fact of the matter is, bloodsucking
indiscriminately or not, the game is about playing
Vampires - as I said, that's a niche market, but it's
a BIG one (c'mon, who hasn't wanted to play some kind
of superhuman creature?).

> > C'mon - that's NOT going to take off? WW figured
out the empty niche and swamped it.
>
> And this is such an evil thing to do - exploit an
economically viable and unoccupied niche?

I never said it was. I'm just pointing out that they
might not be as good as your comment made them out to
be. If it's the only product in the niche, then
there's no such thing as competition and thus there's
no way to gauge how good or bad it really is.

Personally, I only have one WW book - Werewolf. I
started reading it and never finished it. It just
didn't appeal to me. That's not to say it's bad or
good - I just didn't like the setting or the premise,
so there wasn't much point going further. So I'm not
criticising it or WW - I'm just saying that while WW
hatred may go overboard (although it's usually
intended in a humourous manner on the list here), you
going for the absolute opposing view isn't necessarily
the truth - nor the best way to persuade people that
WW-bashing is silly.

> Gamers disgust me.

And apologists disgust me. Take it easy, Kali. I might
be reading you wrong and you might actually believe
every single word you've said about WW, but you
DEFINITELY read me wrong.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:59:21 +0100
According to Simon Fuller, at 13:46 on 7 Feb 00, the word on the street
was...

> BAH! Where I live we have NO gaming stores, and book stores definitely do
> not stock any role playing games. What kind of Utopia do you live in,
> anyway?

The bigger bookstores I've been in when I was in the US usually had a few
shelves of RPG books, so I guess it's normal for Americans to expect to
see them in a bookstore. Me, I'm still waiting for the day that a
bookstore around here has even one game book...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Lurch lurch@****.net
Subject: [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 23:02:48 -0600
Simon Fuller wrote:
>
> BAH! Where I live we have NO gaming stores, and book stores definitely do
> not stock any role playing games. What kind of Utopia do you live in,
> anyway?

Wow, I feel horribly spoiled now...I live 10 minutes away from a huge
gaming store that's been in business for nearly 20 years (which carries
in-stock or has a lead on virtually every gaming product that ever was
or will be, & has enough tables in its separate gaming room to run about
a half-dozen 8-player games simultaneously). As if that isn't enough,
there's a Games Workshop retail store about 5 minutes away from me, a
WotC store 20 minutes away, and several bookstores and comic shops that
are at least gamer-aware. I won't even mention how Gen Con is less than
two hours' drive away from me so I don't have to spend a ton of money on
airfare (except I just did mention it, so never mind...)

Apparently, I *do* live in Gamer Utopia -- which must be why you're all
glaring at me like that now... :)

--
Lurch (not bragging, just very, very grateful)
http://yourang.freeservers.com
"Sic gorgiamus allo subjectatus nunc"

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [OT] White Wolf(was-insiders: cannon companion due?), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!