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Message no. 1
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:52:44 +1100 (EST)
Is wizkids going to reprint or update information on
lost titles like londen sourcebook, neo anarchist,
paranormal animals, lone star sourcebook, etc.

I'm not sure whether your allowed to tell me this
but, Is their a website where you can download old
FASA source material & source books &/or is wizkids
planning to make a compilation cd rom of all out of
print titles(such as what's listed above) from FASA?

GZ

http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile
- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.
Message no. 2
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alex Case)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:10:53 -0800
---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment
At 04:52 PM 3/27/03 +1100, you wrote:
>I'm not sure whether your allowed to tell me this
>but, Is their a website where you can download old
>FASA source material & source books &/or is wizkids
>planning to make a compilation cd rom of all out of
>print titles(such as what's listed above) from FASA?

To my knowledge, there are no official web sites where you can download old
sourcebooks. Adam is the most qualified to say if there are plans to
produce a compilation CD-ROM of out of print titles (or alternatively, if
titles will be put up for free or for-pay download, like what WotC is doing).

My recommendation is to check around your local game stores and E-Bay. If
you can't find anything there, then I suggest patience and persistence.

"It is written that it is better to burn a single city than to curse the
darkness"
-From "The Furies" By Roger Zelazny

---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 3/17/03

---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment--
Message no. 3
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:38:05 -0800
Is their a website where you can download old
> FASA source material & source books &/or is wizkids
> planning to make a compilation cd rom of all out of
> print titles(such as what's listed above) from FASA?

I've heard that KaZaa has some pirate files for SR.
--Anders
Message no. 4
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 05:05:42 -0500
At 10:38 PM 3/26/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Is their a website where you can download old
> > FASA source material & source books &/or is wizkids
> > planning to make a compilation cd rom of all out of
> > print titles(such as what's listed above) from FASA?
>
>I've heard that KaZaa has some pirate files for SR.

However, these are not endorsed in any way by Dumpshock, and are
illegal. Considering it's pretty easy and pretty cheap to obtain most SR
Sourcebooks, a crappy scanned copy seems like a waste of time anyways.

Some stuff will be seeing updates in some form or another. London, for
example, will be covered in the Great Britain section of Shadows of Europe,
due out at Gen Con. Neo-A's guide to NA was updated with Shadows of North
America. The other has been updated already in various sources and will
see more updates through the SPrawl Survival Guide and Mr. Johnsons Little
Black Book.

Other stuff is unlikely to see any kind of Update, at least not in the form
it was prior. You won't see single city/country books anymore, as they
just don't sell well (Seattle being the exception, since it's the "default"
setting). And some formats, such as the old "Thing per page or two" format
of books like Fields of Fire or the Paranormal books, are outdated and
inefficient, so are unlikely to be used again.

A new Paranormals book has been discussed as a possibility, but so far it
hasn't been slated as a possible upcoming book. But who knows.

A CD with old, OOP books on it has been discussed, as has a "pay per
download", but so far nothing concrete has materialized from it.

Bull
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:57:32 +0100
According to Robert Ennew, on Thursday 27 March 2003 06:52 the word on the
street was...

> Is wizkids going to reprint or update information on
> lost titles like londen sourcebook, neo anarchist,
> paranormal animals, lone star sourcebook, etc.

Probably not, although the information in location sourcebooks (like the
London and Germany Sourcebooks) is/will be updated by books such as
Shadows of North America and the forthcoming Shadows of Europe. These
don't go into as much depth as the old "one country, one sourcebook" style
books, though.

> is wizkids
> planning to make a compilation cd rom of all out of
> print titles(such as what's listed above) from FASA?

Ideas for that have been kicked around several times over the past four or
five years, but nothing has come of them so far. I wouldn't hold my
breath, if I were you.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:10:41 +0000
In message <5.2.0.9.0.20030326220708.032414a0@********.verizon.net>,
Alex Case <alex.case@*******.net> writes
>My recommendation is to check around your local game stores and E-Bay.
>If you can't find anything there, then I suggest patience and
>persistence.
>

I'd second this - the number of times I've gone into a store and asked
for something and some random person has tapped me on the shoulder and
said they've got a copy I could have is incredible. Having said that,
I'm still having trouble getting M&M (which is hardly ancient). They
sales dude said they'd got a beaten up 2nd hand copy I could have if I
_really_ wanted it.

--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:26:44 +0100
According to Paul Squires, on Thursday 27 March 2003 12:10 the word on the
street was...

> I'd second this - the number of times I've gone into a store and asked
> for something and some random person has tapped me on the shoulder and
> said they've got a copy I could have is incredible. Having said that,
> I'm still having trouble getting M&M (which is hardly ancient). They
> sales dude said they'd got a beaten up 2nd hand copy I could have if I
> _really_ wanted it.

Since you're in the UK: not even places like Leisure Games, Spirit Games or
Travelling Man have a copy?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:35:17 +0000
In message <200303271926.44490.gurth@******.nl>, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
writes
>According to Paul Squires, on Thursday 27 March 2003 12:10 the word on the
>street was...
>
>> I'd second this - the number of times I've gone into a store and asked
>> for something and some random person has tapped me on the shoulder and
>> said they've got a copy I could have is incredible. Having said that,
>> I'm still having trouble getting M&M (which is hardly ancient). They
>> sales dude said they'd got a beaten up 2nd hand copy I could have if I
>> _really_ wanted it.
>
>Since you're in the UK: not even places like Leisure Games, Spirit Games or
>Travelling Man have a copy?
>

Unfortunately I'm without means of paying other than cash so delivery
isn't a possibility. Travelling Man is actually my local store - they
were going to reorder M&M for me so I'm going in this morning to see.

--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:49:05 +0000 (GMT)
Paul Squires wrote:

> Unfortunately I'm without means of paying other than cash so delivery
> isn't a possibility. Travelling Man is actually my local store - they
> were going to reorder M&M for me so I'm going in this morning to see.

Have you tried using postal orders? Can get 'em in practically most post offices and they
work exactly the same as a cheque. Would seem to be the perfect solution for you problem.

Simon
Message no. 10
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:12:29 +0200
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:57:32 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:



> Probably not, although the information in location sourcebooks (like the
> London and Germany Sourcebooks) is/will be updated by books such as
> Shadows of North America and the forthcoming Shadows of Europe. These
> don't go into as much depth as the old "one country, one sourcebook"
> style books, though.

Well, I can't speak on FanPro's/WizKids' behalf, but I don't think that
Germany
will be covered in depth in Shadows of Europe.
The sourcebook "Deutschland in den Sschatten" has been updated recently
and is at the year 2063 by now.

> Ideas for that have been kicked around several times over the past four
> or five years, but nothing has come of them so far. I wouldn't hold my
> breath, if I were you.

Too bad. Some of the stuff I remember from my age 14 Shadowrunning was
quite decent.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:09:44 +0200
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Monday 31 March 2003 15:12 the word on
the street was...

> Well, I can't speak on FanPro's/WizKids' behalf, but I don't think that
> Germany will be covered in depth in Shadows of Europe.

Obviously not in as much depth as in DidS 2 -- I seem to recall from seeing
it at Spiel that that's 320 pages or so? Whereas SoE will have only part
of a book that's only about half that size devoted to Germany. IOW, it
will only cover the basics, obviously. The idea behind the newer books is
more to give an overview of the country with enough detail about the
important stuff, and not say as much about the more generic stuff (like
what bars you can find in the major cities) so that the GM can improvise
the rest.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 07:33:49 +0200
On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:09:44 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:


> Obviously not in as much depth as in DidS 2 -- I seem to recall from
> seeing it at Spiel that that's 320 pages or so?

Yep. I'm looking forward to carry it around. But it is full of useful
stuff.

> Whereas SoE will have only part of a book that's only about half that
> size devoted to Germany.

Well, it is enough if you plan a cmapaign in Europe or a part of a
campaign.
it is on my *to-buy* list.

> IOW, it will only cover the basics, obviously. The idea behind the newer
> books is more to give an overview of the country with enough detail about
> the important stuff, and not say as much about the more generic stuff
> (like what bars you can find in the major cities) so that the GM can
> improvise the rest.

Seems, like we talk different books here.
Not even DidS2 covers too much detail in the German Shadows.
And it lacks maps. That is something that wold be very needed.
Well, now I have to buy a road map of Germany. *sigh*

Anyways, if a long visit to Germany is planned in a group, it is a must
have.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:11:25 +0200
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 07:33 the word
on the street was...

> > IOW, it will only cover the basics, obviously. The idea behind the
> > newer books is more to give an overview of the country with enough
> > detail about the important stuff, and not say as much about the more
> > generic stuff (like what bars you can find in the major cities) so
> > that the GM can improvise the rest.
>
> Seems, like we talk different books here.

I've only leafed through DidS2 twice, so I can't really say much about
what's in it, so I was basing the above comment mainly on typical older SR
location sourcebooks, which often had information about bars and things in
the major cities.

> Not even DidS2 covers too much detail in the German Shadows.
> And it lacks maps. That is something that wold be very needed.

There are no maps at all in DidS2?

> Well, now I have to buy a road map of Germany. *sigh*

At least you're in the right place to do that; I don't think I've ever seen
good maps of the US around here, except for ones in atlases, which are too
small a scale to be _really_ of use.

> Anyways, if a long visit to Germany is planned in a group, it is a must
> have.

Provided you speak German, of course.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:40:47 +0200
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:11:25 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> I've only leafed through DidS2 twice, so I can't really say much about
> what's in it, so I was basing the above comment mainly on typical older
> SR location sourcebooks, which often had information about bars and
> things in the major cities.

Well, there are still some key locations, but that are more points of
interest.
And not the main part. In fact, the most is about the city districts
(Hamburg),
and/or areas of interest (Bavaria).

There is a lot of background info, even besides the cities. Law stuff, and
descriptions of the more important groups (Illuminates, Cons et.al.).

It is definetely one of the best sourcebooks ever published for an RPG.
Although that is subject to change in the future (possibly).

>> Not even DidS2 covers too much detail in the German Shadows.
>> And it lacks maps. That is something that wold be very needed.
>
> There are no maps at all in DidS2?

there is one colored fold-out map of the whole ADL. But no mpas of smaller
parts of the country, just black and white reprints of the colour map.
That'S something that HAS to be corrected. I just cannot find any mpas
covering the Rhein-Ruhr-Metroplex.

> At least you're in the right place to do that; I don't think I've ever
> seen good maps of the US around here, except for ones in atlases, which
> are too small a scale to be _really_ of use.

True, true. Although a road atlas is not very easy to handle. But cheap.

> Provided you speak German, of course.

That's a prime requirement, yes.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 15
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:03:14 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Gurth
Sent: 2003-April-02 04:11
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: out of print source books

<snip>

At least you're in the right place to do that; I don't think I've ever
seen
good maps of the US around here, except for ones in atlases, which are
too
small a scale to be _really_ of use.

> Anyways, if a long visit to Germany is planned in a group, it is a
must
> have.

Provided you speak German, of course.

--
Well, you could always behold the power of the internet. Mapquest can be
a great place to get maps of various areas...
Message no. 16
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:51:49 +0200
On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:03:14 -0500, Jonathan Hurley
<silvercat@***********.org> wrote:

> Well, you could always behold the power of the internet. Mapquest can be
> a great place to get maps of various areas...

Two difficulties: These maps are U.S. only, and I haven't found maps of
Germany in 2063 as of yet.


And by the way (And that's for all you MS Outlook (Express) users!),
get an e-mail program that knows how to use the standards.
Eudora, The Bat!, whatever.

Or get this Add-On for Outlook Express at least:
http://jump.to/oe-quotefix

That helps to reduce stress on the recipients side :-)

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 17
From: 520074903613-0001@********.de (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:57:10 +0200
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.de>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:11:25 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> It is definetely one of the best sourcebooks ever published for an RPG.
> Although that is subject to change in the future (possibly).

I disagree, If suffers too much from the "everything in your backyard and
then some Syndrome".
And I still can`t get over it what they have done to Saxony.
greetings Thorger Sünert
Message no. 18
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:58:43 +0200
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:57:10 +0200, Thorger Sünert <520074903613-0001@**
online.de> wrote:

> I disagree, If suffers too much from the "everything in your backyard and
> then some Syndrome".

Q.E.D. A part from the utter lack of maps.

> And I still can`t get over it what they have done to Saxony.
> greetings Thorger Sünert

Ah, well, my hometown is not existing anymore in the 1060's.
And do I complain? No.

But then this was in the first DidS the same, just a few years
earlier in the time line.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 19
From: 520074903613-0001@********.de (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:22:29 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.de>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:57:10 +0200, Thorger Sünert <520074903613-0001@**
> online.de> wrote:
>
> > I disagree, If suffers too much from the "everything in your backyard
and
> > then some Syndrome".
>
> Q.E.D. A part from the utter lack of maps.


err, no. There are just too much Magic, Dragons and Companies (okay, this I
can understand ) running around.
You sometimes get the Impression that the writers took a look at north
america in 2060 and said hey, look we can make it even more interesting and
fantastic, and instead of doing something unqiue they copied it ( hey, UCAs
has an elven state, germany has one, look there is a dragon running around,
so germany gets two, and Proteus, we just have to have a totally
Übercompany, because you know that`s cool, and I still not understand how
the heck panzer smuggler operate in germany ) and germany became an satire
at best).
And then every local legend has to be true, right ? Sometimes you get the
idea that every fucking lake in magical ( and every village a huge Sprawl ).
I still wonder where the additional 50 million inhabitants come from. ( or
if we are generous 20 million )
Reading the book I got sometimes the Impression that I´m not in Kansas
anymore, and this is a heavy industrialized countries.


> > And I still can`t get over it what they have done to Saxony.
> > greetings Thorger Sünert
>
> Ah, well, my hometown is not existing anymore in the 1060's.

Same happend to mine, so ?

>And do I complain? No.

Saxon is not my homestate, I just think the imagine of state were duelling
is par of the course is pure breed stupitidty ( and I would really like to
read through the constitution of the AGS )

This is not say that I donnot like DidS2, they have toned down much of it,
and I really like the article about Brandenburg :) ( and I appreciate that
they have inserted articles on the life in germany due to the demand ), but
it is not one of the best.

Friendly Greetings Thorger Sünert
.
Message no. 20
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:36:38 +0200
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:22:29 +0200, Thorger SÃŒnert <520074903613-0001@**
online.de> wrote:


> err, no. There are just too much Magic, Dragons and Companies (okay, this
> I
> can understand ) running around.
> You sometimes get the Impression that the writers took a look at north
> america in 2060 and said hey, look we can make it even more interesting
> and
> fantastic, and instead of doing something unqiue they copied it ( hey,
> UCAs
> has an elven state, germany has one, look there is a dragon running
> around,
> so germany gets two, and Proteus, we just have to have a totally
> Ãœbercompany, because you know that`s cool, and I still not understand how
> the heck panzer smuggler operate in germany ) and germany became an
> satire
> at best).

Well, see it that way: A lot of folk is not playing in the UCAS.
But in Germany.
That gives problems as well as chances.

The problem is, that there is a lot to cover. (And there is an elven
kingdom
in Ireland, too). Naturally, the book is big. And it is a lot.

But I had the feeling that some stuff was cut to length prior to
publishing.
Alas, that'S the way it is.

The source book _is_ in MY opinion (!) the best as of yet. I haven't read
any better source book for an RPG.

> And then every local legend has to be true, right ? Sometimes you get the
> idea that every fucking lake in magical ( and every village a huge Sprawl
> ).

Well, I did not have the impression. For the Black Forest, yes. But not for
the ADL as such. neither for the growth of towns.

In fact, it is mentioned that the smaller cities are next to dead, because
the Sprawls were the target for the population.

> I still wonder where the additional 50 million inhabitants come from. (
> or
> if we are generous 20 million )
> Reading the book I got sometimes the Impression that I´m not in Kansas
> anymore, and this is a heavy industrialized countries.

Well, it's the 2060's. And it never was Kansas :-)


>> And do I complain? No.
>
> Saxon is not my homestate, I just think the imagine of state were
> duelling
> is par of the course is pure breed stupitidty ( and I would really like
> to
> read through the constitution of the AGS )

Well, I like the idea of such states in the ADL. It is like the NAN, yes.
but still it has a unique feeling. But then, it is a matter of taste.

> This is not say that I donnot like DidS2, they have toned down much of
> it,
> and I really like the article about Brandenburg :) ( and I appreciate
> that
> they have inserted articles on the life in germany due to the demand ),

Yep, the best choice they made. Although I keep complaining about the
lack of maps.


And I suggest we let this matter rest now, as I don't think we will
have a fruitful discussion, but a small Flame War starting.

So then, have a nice day.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 21
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:16:59 +0200
According to Jonathan Hurley, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 15:03 the word on
the street was...

> Well, you could always behold the power of the internet. Mapquest can be
> a great place to get maps of various areas...

I never have been able to master the knack of finding what I'm after on the
WWW... Whenever I try to look something up, I always seem to spend ages
looking at everything except what I'm actually after :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:24:38 +0200
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 16:36 the word
on the street was...

> Well, see it that way: A lot of folk is not playing in the UCAS.
> But in Germany.
> That gives problems as well as chances.

I have to agree with Thorger: if all a book does is essentially copy
everything from North America into Germany, then what is the point of
playing a campaign set in Germany in the first place? Okay, there's the
recognition factor of the names you're familiar with, instead of having to
learn the names of Seattle's districts, but that seems to be about the
only advantage...

> The problem is, that there is a lot to cover. (And there is an elven
> kingdom in Ireland, too). Naturally, the book is big. And it is a lot.

And one in South Africa. Altogether, IMHO that's not a good enough reason
to put yet another one in north-eastern Germany, though. This is somewhat
compensated by the addition of a troll kingdom on the other side of the
country, but why not do _just_ the troll state?

> But I had the feeling that some stuff was cut to length prior to
> publishing.

That's a fact of life when it come to RPG writing: either you can't think
of a way to fill the wordcount, or you have far more to say than will ever
fit. Usually the latter.

> The source book _is_ in MY opinion (!) the best as of yet. I haven't
> read any better source book for an RPG.

But to decide how much value we need to attach to that kind of statement,
the rst of us need to know with how many RPG books you have experience :)

> > Reading the book I got sometimes the Impression that I´m not in
Kansas
> > anymore, and this is a heavy industrialized countries.
>
> Well, it's the 2060's. And it never was Kansas :-)

I think what he means is that it's not Germany anymore.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 12:17:04 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.de>

> And by the way (And that's for all you MS Outlook (Express) users!),
> get an e-mail program that knows how to use the standards.
> Eudora, The Bat!, whatever.

Odd, I'm using outlook express and I'm pretty sure I quote things
properly. No patch on my side.

I just have this wierd problem where Gurth's emails [and it seems to
only be Gurth's, I'm never had the probelm with anyone else's mails]
don't get '> ' inserted before the quoted text.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 24
From: zebulingod@*****.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:11:08 -0800
"Da Twink Daddy" <datwinkdaddy@*******.com> wrote:


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.de>
>
> > And by the way (And that's for all you MS Outlook (Express) users!),
> > get an e-mail program that knows how to use the standards.
> > Eudora, The Bat!, whatever.
>
> Odd, I'm using outlook express and I'm pretty sure I quote things
> properly. No patch on my side.
>
> I just have this wierd problem where Gurth's emails [and it seems to
> only be Gurth's, I'm never had the probelm with anyone else's mails]
> don't get '> ' inserted before the quoted text.
>
>

SAME HERE! Gurth, what are you using for email?

Zeb
Message no. 25
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:02:11 -0500
He's probably a little annoyed that I do not insert 'quote' characters
infront of quoted material in my replies. Since this is the only list
that I participate in that requires postfix replies, and since I
personally think that postfix replies are *not* my preferred method of
reading a thread, I'm not going to modify my email program for one list.
I'll postfix my replies for this list, Gridsec has made it quite clear
what prefixing my replies will get me.

But I hate having to reread the old stuff to get to the new stuff. And I
hate what nested characters does to the readability.

"I suppose this is what I get for letting rednecks play with
anti-matter; they just don't know when to say 'Okay, that's 'nough!'
Instead, it's always 'Hey' y'all! Watch this!'"
When the Devil Dances, John Ringo

Ian Argent
silvercat@***********.org
Message no. 26
From: justin@***********.net (Justin)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:08:15 -0500
Jonathan Hurley said the following on 4/2/2003 3:02 PM:
> He's probably a little annoyed that I do not insert 'quote' characters
> infront of quoted material in my replies. Since this is the only list
> that I participate in that requires postfix replies, and since I
> personally think that postfix replies are *not* my preferred method of
> reading a thread, I'm not going to modify my email program for one list.
> I'll postfix my replies for this list, Gridsec has made it quite clear
> what prefixing my replies will get me.
>
> But I hate having to reread the old stuff to get to the new stuff. And I
> hate what nested characters does to the readability.

http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
Message no. 27
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:44:52 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Justin
Sent: 2003-April-02 15:08
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: out of print source books



Jonathan Hurley said the following on 4/2/2003 3:02 PM:
> He's probably a little annoyed that I do not insert 'quote' characters
> infront of quoted material in my replies. Since this is the only list
> that I participate in that requires postfix replies, and since I
> personally think that postfix replies are *not* my preferred method of
> reading a thread, I'm not going to modify my email program for one
list.
> I'll postfix my replies for this list, Gridsec has made it quite clear
> what prefixing my replies will get me.
>
> But I hate having to reread the old stuff to get to the new stuff. And
I
> hate what nested characters does to the readability.

http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
------------------------------------------

As you ca see, I do postfix my responses in this forum. It's not that
hard, and here, it's the LAW :)



"I suppose this is what I get for letting rednecks play with
anti-matter; they just don't know when to say 'Okay, that's 'nough!'
Instead, it's always 'Hey' y'all! Watch this!'"
When the Devil Dances, John Ringo

Ian Argent
silvercat@***********.org
Message no. 28
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:27:16 -0700
At 04:44 PM 4/2/2003 -0500, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

>As you ca see, I do postfix my responses in this forum. It's not that
>hard, and here, it's the LAW :)

It's even stronger than the LAW, it's TRADITION! ;)

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 29
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:44:30 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Graht
Sent: 2003-April-02 17:27
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: RE: out of print source books

At 04:44 PM 4/2/2003 -0500, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

>As you ca see, I do postfix my responses in this forum. It's not that
>hard, and here, it's the LAW :)

It's even stronger than the LAW, it's TRADITION! ;)

--

And law you might be able to weasel out of, with a good lawyer.
Tradition, never. To bring this on topic, there might be a good couple
of runs in that saying. Picture an elven illuminant whose traditional
privileges are in conflict with a modern law...
Message no. 30
From: 520074903613-0001@********.de (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 07:10:18 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.de>
> And I suggest we let this matter rest now, as I don't think we will
> have a fruitful discussion, but a small Flame War starting.
>
> So then, have a nice day.

I apologize.
I sometimes state my opinions with too much verve.
Friendly greetings
Thorger SÃŒnert
Message no. 31
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:01:53 +0200
According to Jonathan Hurley, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 22:02 the word on
the street was...

> He's probably a little annoyed that I do not insert 'quote' characters
> infront of quoted material in my replies. Since this is the only list
> that I participate in that requires postfix replies, and since I
> personally think that postfix replies are *not* my preferred method of
> reading a thread, I'm not going to modify my email program for one list.
> I'll postfix my replies for this list, Gridsec has made it quite clear
> what prefixing my replies will get me.

Just one more request, then: don't separate the quoted material and your
new text with just two dashes. My mailer mistakes those for sigdashes, and
strips everything below it from the reply...

> But I hate having to reread the old stuff to get to the new stuff. And I
> hate what nested characters does to the readability.

I must say that I find it much handier to have the relevant bit of the old
material first, as a reminder of what the thread is about. An added
benefit is that you don't have to add reminders yourself in your reply.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:02:28 +0200
According to Zebulin Magby, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 21:11 the word on
the street was...

> > I just have this wierd problem where Gurth's emails [and it seems to
> > only be Gurth's, I'm never had the probelm with anyone else's mails]
> > don't get '> ' inserted before the quoted text.
>
> SAME HERE! Gurth, what are you using for email?

KMail 1.4.3 (http://kmail.kde.org). Strangely, this problem also existed
when I used a completely different mailer under an entirely different OS
(Pegasus Mail for Windows) so I'm not entirely sure it's my mailer that's
to blame.

It's my suspicion that it's to do with _your_ end, though, because as far
as I've been able to determine, everyone who's ever had problems quoting
my messages was using Outlook or Outlook Express.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:01:34 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> [snip]
>
> It's my suspicion that it's to do with _your_ end, though,
> because as far
> as I've been able to determine, everyone who's ever had
> problems quoting
> my messages was using Outlook or Outlook Express.

Ahh yes, the eternal culprit, Microsoft :)

Nope, I have to correct you there I'm afraid. I can quote your mails
perfectly and I'm running Outlook.

Just FYI.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
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This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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Message no. 34
From: York.GA@******.gc.ca (York.GA@******.gc.ca)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:04:39 -0500
>According to Zebulin Magby, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 21:11 the word on
>the street was...
> > I just have this wierd problem where Gurth's emails [and it seems to
> > only be Gurth's, I'm never had the probelm with anyone else's mails]
> > don't get '> ' inserted before the quoted text.
>KMail 1.4.3 (http://kmail.kde.org). Strangely, this problem also existed
>when I used a completely different mailer under an entirely different OS
>(Pegasus Mail for Windows) so I'm not entirely sure it's my mailer that's
>to blame.
>
>It's my suspicion that it's to do with _your_ end, though, because as far
>as I've been able to determine, everyone who's ever had problems quoting
>my messages was using Outlook or Outlook Express.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to back Gurth up on this one. I have never had
a problem with his posts. But then again I'm using Outlook. Perhaps your
mailer doesn't like his mailer.

Coyote
Message no. 35
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:40:24 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Gurth wrote:

> According to Zebulin Magby, on Wednesday 02 April 2003 21:11 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > > I just have this wierd problem where Gurth's emails [and it seems to
> > > only be Gurth's, I'm never had the probelm with anyone else's mails]
> > > don't get '> ' inserted before the quoted text.
> >
> > SAME HERE! Gurth, what are you using for email?
>
> KMail 1.4.3 (http://kmail.kde.org). Strangely, this problem also existed
> when I used a completely different mailer under an entirely different OS
> (Pegasus Mail for Windows) so I'm not entirely sure it's my mailer that's
> to blame.
>
> It's my suspicion that it's to do with _your_ end, though, because as far
> as I've been able to determine, everyone who's ever had problems quoting
> my messages was using Outlook or Outlook Express.
>
>
Actually I just went back and looked at the encoding of the last few
messages Gurth sent.

Somtimes the mime type is text/plain, and sometimes it's a Euro ISO
charset.

This might explain why some outlook people have no problem quoting the
messages (If they quote the ones that are text/plain) while on others
outlook gets confused.
Message no. 36
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:20:15 +0200
According to Steve Garrard, on Thursday 03 April 2003 14:01 the word on the
street was...

> Nope, I have to correct you there I'm afraid. I can quote your mails
> perfectly and I'm running Outlook.

Please note that what I said is that as far as I've been able to determine,
everyone who can't quote my messages properly was using Outlook. This is
different from saying that everyone who uses Outlook can't quote my
messages properly (which is what you apparently _think_ I said).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:50:10 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> According to Steve Garrard, on Thursday 03 April 2003 14:01
> the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Nope, I have to correct you there I'm afraid. I can quote
> your mails
> > perfectly and I'm running Outlook.
>
> Please note that what I said is that as far as I've been able
> to determine,
> everyone who can't quote my messages properly was using
> Outlook. This is
> different from saying that everyone who uses Outlook can't quote my
> messages properly (which is what you apparently _think_ I said).

Okay, I must've misunderstood. My apologies :)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 38
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 08:59:33 +0200
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 07:10:18 +0200, Thorger Sünert <520074903613-0001@**
online.de> wrote:

> I apologize.

No offense taken.

> I sometimes state my opinions with too much verve.

Oh, yes, I know *that* problem.
Especially in matters of taste, discussions get painful and personal.

I just wanted to evade this.

Enjoy your weekend.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 39
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: out of print source books
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:07:30 +0200
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:24:38 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:


> I have to agree with Thorger: if all a book does is essentially copy
> everything from North America into Germany, then what is the point of
> playing a campaign set in Germany in the first place? Okay, there's the
> recognition factor of the names you're familiar with, instead of having
> to learn the names of Seattle's districts, but that seems to be about the
> only advantage...

Well, not quite. I recognize a lot of stuff that is "typical" German in the
source book. But that's just me. And then, Germany is very split up.
There's not only the North Vs. South attitude, but the Country vs. Cities
"debate", too. And lots of small things, adding colour to it.

> And one in South Africa. Altogether, IMHO that's not a good enough reason
> to put yet another one in north-eastern Germany, though. This is somewhat
> compensated by the addition of a troll kingdom on the other side of the
> country, but why not do _just_ the troll state?

Well, they could have done that. But that the Elven kingdom cleaned the
Ostsee
_is_ important in battling the toxic ghosts in the North Sea and a lot of
other
ecological catastrophies.
Then there is the orichalcum mines in the west and the east of germany, the
state
of Franken with its emphasis on tourism.

And lots of other stuff, I can't remember from scratch.

>> The source book _is_ in MY opinion (!) the best as of yet. I haven't
>> read any better source book for an RPG.
>
> But to decide how much value we need to attach to that kind of statement,
> the rst of us need to know with how many RPG books you have experience :)

I could leave that as it is, but then: I waded through a bunch of the old
Das Schwarze Auge source books, and a few of the AD&D sources fro the races
and character classes.

>> Well, it's the 2060's. And it never was Kansas :-)
>
> I think what he means is that it's not Germany anymore.


Take a look at the smiley I placed. That _should_ make it obviuos :-)

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot

Further Reading

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Thwap!