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Message no. 1
From: Jan-bart van Beek <flake@***.NL>
Subject: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:37:44 +0100
Remember the archetype I mentioned, remember that someone mentioned that
one spoirit could ruin his day.

Well to playtest him, I put him up against 3 high level spirits, all
level 6 or 7. That's pretty high considering the maximum level is the
conjurer's charisma.

You know what he did. He beat the shoit out of every one of them, using a
iron pipe he found in some dumpster.
Spirits are rather weak when you got yourself a willpower of 10 and a
combat pool of 10.
And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so in the rules.
OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the smarts
and strategic insight for this.
Grounding spells may work but the guy throws 10+9 dice in defense.

But I admit he's very open to astral dangers, allthough they can't really
harm him.


--------------------------------------------------------------
| Beware of what you ask for you may recieve it |
--------------------------------------------------------------

**** The Cornflake Killer Strikes again ****
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 01:55:28 +0930
Jan-bart van Beek wrote:
>
> And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so in the rules.
> OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the smarts
> and strategic insight for this.

A force Six spirit is smarter than all but a small population of humanity.
A force seven spirit puts most MENSA members to shame. They _live_ in the
Astral plane, and certainy would know the tactics involved in Astral
combat.

Furthermore, spirit powers can ground through foci, you don't just have to
fight them.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 3
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:04:26 EST
>
> Remember the archetype I mentioned, remember that someone mentioned that
> one spoirit could ruin his day.
>
> Well to playtest him, I put him up against 3 high level spirits, all
> level 6 or 7. That's pretty high considering the maximum level is the
> conjurer's charisma.
>
> You know what he did. He beat the shoit out of every one of them, using a
> iron pipe he found in some dumpster.
> Spirits are rather weak when you got yourself a willpower of 10 and a
> combat pool of 10.
> And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so in the rules.
> OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the smarts
> and strategic insight for this.
spirits as I recall are not stupid especially at high force

Luc
Message no. 4
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:23:37 -0700
>Remember the archetype I mentioned, remember that someone mentioned that
>one spoirit could ruin his day.

yes - twas me.

>Well to playtest him, I put him up against 3 high level spirits, all
>level 6 or 7. That's pretty high considering the maximum level is the
>conjurer's charisma.

no - the drain just gets higher. Charisma limits the NUMBER you may have in
service at one time.


>You know what he did. He beat the shoit out of every one of them, using a
>iron pipe he found in some dumpster.
>Spirits are rather weak when you got yourself a willpower of 10 and a
>combat pool of 10.
>And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so in the rules.
>OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the smarts
>and strategic insight for this.

yes - spirits are smart. POOF - there goes your 10 willpower - you Combat pool
also drops to 7.

Spirits can ground powers through foci.

Also - I do not believe that you get your combat pool when using Willpower to
fight a spirit. Oh - andthe threat ratings would be 3 for the spirits.

>Grounding spells may work but the guy throws 10+9 dice in defense.

again - where do you get the 10+9 dice from? and he would already have to have
them allocated.

>But I admit he's very open to astral dangers, allthough they can't really
>harm him.

trust me - they can. He is a walking astral target that says "Kick ME!!!!"

A force 6 Elemental would ruin his day.

Nightfox

DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU - Daniel Waisley HTTP://DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU/~DJW2/
- Insanity is such a delightful state of mind.
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
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b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:56:33 -0500
>>>>> "Jan-bart" == Jan-bart van Beek <flake@***.NL>
writes:

Jan-bart> Spirits are rather weak when you got yourself a willpower of
Jan-bart> 10 and a combat pool of 10.

Just curious, but how did you get a Willpower of 10? Spell locks?
Quickenings? Can you say ``grounding''? I knew you could. Pop! and there
go your locks. And what's his Charisma? If it's not up there at the 6 or
7 of the enemy spririts you'd best not get yourself caught up in a
banishing test, because at 3 to 1 odds you're hosed.

Jan-bart> And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so
Jan-bart> in the rules.

No, it says that a spirit can only attack you PHYSICALLY when it's
manifest. If you're astrally active it can attack you astrally just
fine, thankyouverymuch.

Jan-bart> OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have
Jan-bart> the smarts and strategic insight for this.

Yes. At Force 6 it's damn quick on the uptake; at Force 7 or 8 it's
better than 99.9% of all humanity.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:10:31 -0500
On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jan-bart van Beek wrote:

> Spirits are rather weak when you got yourself a willpower of 10 and a
> combat pool of 10.

But you got it this way with spell locks, which are big, juicy,
easy targets in Astral Space.

> And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so in the rules.
> OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the smarts
> and strategic insight for this.

With an Intelligence equal to its Force? Hell yes, it's smart
enough. Also realize that it is an intrinsically astral creature and
will see the spell lock for the weakness that it is. And after it has
toasted your spell locks, it can manifest and pound you with less risk of
being brained with said pipe.

> Grounding spells may work but the guy throws 10+9 dice in defense.

But keep in mind that those dice can NOT be used to augment the
focus in Astral Combat. Against spells, yes, but against someone trying
to hammer it, no. Also, I'm still fuzzy on how you came up with so much
magic pool.

> But I admit he's very open to astral dangers, allthough they can't really
> harm him.

After his Willpower lock goes down, his life starts to suck.
After his Power or Purpose foci go down, he's totally coned. Any mage or
spirit worth it's salt is going to exploit his weakness in Astral space
*before* they pound him in real space. The vulnerability in Astral space
just sets him up for vulnerability in real space.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:37:21 -0500
On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Jan-bart van Beek wrote:

> Remember the archetype I mentioned, remember that someone mentioned that
> one spoirit could ruin his day.
>
> Well to playtest him, I put him up against 3 high level spirits, all
> level 6 or 7. That's pretty high considering the maximum level is the
> conjurer's charisma.

Ok..

> And a spirit can only attack you when he's manifested, says so in the rules.
> OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the smarts
> and strategic insight for this.

Intelligence of 6 or 7, and the can't think of this? Excuse me, most
spirits DO have a sence of self-preservation, and even wild animals will
try to weaken prey before they attack directly...

Shadow
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:33:18 +1000
NIGHTFOX writes:

> >Grounding spells may work but the guy throws 10+9 dice in defense.
>
> again - where do you get the 10+9 dice from? and he would already have to
> have them allocated.

That reminds me, it says that a magician must allocate his magic pool dice
to spell defence, right? So, what is wrong with somebody saying that they
are going to have their dice on permanent allocation unless they say
otherwise? That way they can use their spell defence dice for protecting
against surprise attacks too.

-----------------------
Matt Hufstetler writes:

> and ground a force (anything above 5) hellblast into him

As if any magician is going to cast a Hellblast spell on the astral. He'd
take physical drain (remember - all drain on the astral is physical). And it
isn't as if the spell would hurt the guy very much anyhow, he had a body of
5, so he would be very likely to just shrug the spell off (especially with
spell defence dice)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:56:22 +0100
> > and ground a force (anything above 5) hellblast into him
>
> As if any magician is going to cast a Hellblast spell on the astral. He'd
> take physical drain (remember - all drain on the astral is physical). And it
> isn't as if the spell would hurt the guy very much anyhow, he had a body of
> 5, so he would be very likely to just shrug the spell off (especially with
> spell defence dice)

No the trick would be to use low-powered/low-drain spells to just take
out his locks/foci/etc. (even if they do not ground) and then manifest to
beat him to a pulp.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 10
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 00:10:15 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> > As if any magician is going to cast a Hellblast spell on the astral. He'd
> > take physical drain (remember - all drain on the astral is physical).
> > And it isn't as if the spell would hurt the guy very much anyhow, he had a
> > body of 5, so he would be very likely to just shrug the spell off
> > (especially with spell defence dice)
>
> No the trick would be to use low-powered/low-drain spells to just take
> out his locks/foci/etc. (even if they do not ground) and then manifest to
> beat him to a pulp.

It's kinda tricky for a projecting magician to manifest and actually do
anything ... :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 11
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:13:34 +0100
> > No the trick would be to use low-powered/low-drain spells to just take
> > out his locks/foci/etc. (even if they do not ground) and then manifest to
> > beat him to a pulp.
>
> It's kinda tricky for a projecting magician to manifest and actually do
> anything ... :-)

A minor technicality, he could send and elemental or spirit :) This
could also be the plan of a rather intelligent spirit (not elemental :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 01:26:07 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> NIGHTFOX writes:
>
> > >Grounding spells may work but the guy throws 10+9 dice in defense.
> >
> > again - where do you get the 10+9 dice from? and he would already have to
> > have them allocated.
>
> That reminds me, it says that a magician must allocate his magic pool dice
> to spell defence, right? So, what is wrong with somebody saying that they
> are going to have their dice on permanent allocation unless they say
> otherwise? That way they can use their spell defence dice for protecting
> against surprise attacks too.
>

I rule that spell defence on _other_ people requires concentration, but
that he can defend himself all the time, unless surprised. But... unless he
has a reason to be alert, he only gets half the dice. (Plus the extra dice
for shielding if he/she is an initiate).

> -----------------------
> Matt Hufstetler writes:
>
> > and ground a force (anything above 5) hellblast into him
>
> As if any magician is going to cast a Hellblast spell on the astral. He'd
> take physical drain (remember - all drain on the astral is physical). And it
> isn't as if the spell would hurt the guy very much anyhow, he had a body of
> 5, so he would be very likely to just shrug the spell off (especially with
> spell defence dice)
>
yah... but Hellblast would start fires around him... :)
Rather nasty, ain't it? I did a tournament type thing once, a group of
players trying to think up ways to kill each other. One player (in the mage
section) grounded a Fireball into another mage's body. Both mages were
astrally projecting, so when the fire started to hurt the other mage, the
damage killed him. (Remember, almost any wound to the physical body will
kill it. Burns count)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 15:55:24 +1000
Robert Watkins writes:

> I rule that spell defence on _other_ people requires concentration, but
> that he can defend himself all the time, unless surprised. But... unless he
> has a reason to be alert, he only gets half the dice. (Plus the extra dice
> for shielding if he/she is an initiate).

This sounds good. I take it you don't allow sustained spells to be sustained
for long? Like, the +4 Body spell cast on the sammie, which the magician
wants to sustain for the entire day?

> yah... but Hellblast would start fires around him... :)

Not likely. Have you seen the target numbers for the elemental effects to
actually work? For a Hellblast to ignite clothing you need to roll a 9-12 on
2D6 (add them, it isn't a test). I can't see anyone being overly frightened
by this prospect. The number is probably about 10, basing it on the Object
Resistance Table on pg 130 or SRII.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 14
From: "<Great Czar>" <GreatCzar@***.COM>
Subject: Overpowered Sorcery Adept
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 16:32:19 -0500
On Thu, 9 Mar 1995 Jan-bart van Beek wrote:
>Spirits are rather weak when you got yourself a willpower of 10 and >a
combat pool of 10.

On page 142 of SR2 under the heading of Manifest Form it states:

"The attacker may not add Combat or Magic Pool dice to this test."

The test being refered to is a combat test against spirits. So he doesn't get
the combat pool against spirits.Furthermore, if it was 3 spirits against one
overpowered sorcerer adept, then they have the advantage of "friends in
melee", while the adept has the disadvantage of "opponent has friends in the
melee". This means that they get a -2 to target number and he gets a +2 to
target number (see pg 101 of SR2). So he know needs 6's to hit and they need
2's.

>OK, the spirit may attack his spell locks, but does it have the >smarts and
strategic insight for this.

Well, a spirit has an intelligence equal to its force. You said that the
spirits were level 6 or 7. I would say those spirits would definitely try to
even things out a bit. I'd say, let them go for the spell locks and then
manifest. It may not have intelligence in the same sense that we do, but at
the very least consider it an extremely cunning animal, that perhaps has a
better intuitive understanding of magic and astral space than the mage does.
Or the summoning mage could tell it to attack the spell locks before beating
the guy to a pulp.

A few other points to remember. Spell locks count towards the magicians limit
of active foci(SR2 pg 138). If the increase intelligence spell lock is
broken, this limit is reduced and he would be forced to deactivate a few
other locks. Perhaps, those attacking spirits will randomly attack that spell
lock:) It is best to remember that as a GM you have a certain amount of power
over the characters, if you wish to discourage players from doing what he
did, then I suggest that you make those spell locks less attractive. Do what
you must. Teach him the hard facts of life, but don't kill the guy. A lesson
can still be taught without resorting to killing the character. In our games,
it is quite clear that a character who wishes to increase all his attributes
with spell locks will lose most of those spell locks every adventure.

Of course, if you don't mind that he is playing a character like that, then
never mind.

Remember as well, that if he can do these things so can everyone else. He
would not be anything special, just average if it were truly that easy.Hope
this helps, in some small way:)
Great Czar

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