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Message no. 1
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Overused topics
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:49:33 +0000
Since many old (banned) topics are being mentioned at the moment I
thought I'd find out if the mage v shaman, elementals v spirits
topics have been done to death.
If they have been could somebody either tell me roughly when they
were done so that I can read the archives or else send me (privately)
a summary. If they haven't been then cry havoc and unleash the
hell-hounds of war, time for these debates to be had.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Overused topics
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:13:57 EST
> thought I'd find out if the mage v shaman, elementals v spirits
> topics have been done to death. If they have been could somebody
> either tell me roughly when they were done so that I can read the
> archives or else send me (privately) a summary. If they haven't
> been then cry havoc and unleash the hell-hounds of war, time for
> these debates to be had.

Done to death? Yes. Many times. Conclusion? None. Obviously.

The differences betwixt the two are such that each is better for
different players. I'm all for open discussion, but this kind of
thread leads nowhere.

While I'm menitoning it, don't bother trying to find out if Phys Ads
are better than Sammies (or visa Versa), or whether mages are more
lethal than sammies. It does nothing but suck up bandwidth.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Overused topics
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:42:14 -0700
Andy Gardner wrote:
/
/ Since many old (banned) topics are being mentioned at the moment I
/ thought I'd find out if the mage v shaman, elementals v spirits
/ topics have been done to death.

I don't think I've ever seen either thread. At least not to the
extent of the Sam vs PA or Sam vs Mage threads.

/ If they haven't been then cry havoc and unleash the
/ hell-hounds of war, time for these debates to be had.

Why? If one has the advantage, he'll probably win. And the
advantage is decided by which spells they have ready, and the
situation at the start of combat, all of which are to variable. If
everything is even then they duke it out and it comes down to whoever
has the better dice rolls. Everything is too conditional to have a
rational debate on this kind of subject. There are too many if's.

And, like the Sam vs PA and Sam vs Mage debates, it's pointless.

No offense :)

Also, Shadowrun is a roleplaying game, not a combat game. How "good"
a character is depends on the player playing him (or her).

-David
--
"Fortune favors the brave." - Terence
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Overused topics
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:01:15 EST
> And, like the Sam vs PA and Sam vs Mage debates, it's pointless.
>
> No offense :)
>
> Also, Shadowrun is a roleplaying game, not a combat game. How
> "good" a character is depends on the player playing him (or her).

Here Here!

(Although I'd love to see one of your Sam Magus and Fred stories on
this.)

[BTW, the debate usually centers around spirits vs
elementals...elementals offer more benefits to the caster, but fewer
"domain" type benefits, and take much longer to summon. Very
much like the Sammy vs. Phys Ad arguments.]

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Overused topics
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:51:40 -0700
Brett Borger wrote:
/
/ > And, like the Sam vs PA and Sam vs Mage debates, it's pointless.
/ >
/ > No offense :)
/ >
/ > Also, Shadowrun is a roleplaying game, not a combat game. How
/ > "good" a character is depends on the player playing him (or her).
/
/ Here Here!

Would you believe I learned that philosophy from this list? :)

/ (Although I'd love to see one of your Sam Magus and Fred stories on
/ this.)
/
/ [BTW, the debate usually centers around spirits vs
/ elementals...elementals offer more benefits to the caster, but fewer
/ "domain" type benefits, and take much longer to summon. Very
/ much like the Sammy vs. Phys Ad arguments.]

Oh yeah. I remember those debates now. It's been awhile hasn't it?

Hmm...

"Man, that run fraggin sucked," Sam said as he took a sip of beer
from his mug. "I hate, repeat, hate, elementals."

"Oh, I dunno," Fred replied as he nursed his drink. "It coulda been
worse. It coulda been a shaman with spirits."

"No way Fred. I'll take on a shaman and his spirits any day of the
week," Sam said confidently.

At that moment Shamus and Magus entered Crazy Ernie's, saw Sam and
Fred, and walked up to their table.

"Hey guys, how was the run? Did you miss us?" Magus asked.

"I wasn't any big deal," Fred replied. "Sam's just in a bad mood
because we had to deal with some elementals."

"Yep. Elementals can be pretty tuff," Magus said casually.

"Sure. But nothing beats a spirit," Shamus added.

Sam gritted his teeth and glared at Fred.

A look of suprise momentarily flashed across Fred's face before it
dawned on him what he'd just started.

Sam spoke up quickly, interupting Magus's reply, "Come on Fred.
We've got that follow up meeting with Mr. Johnson. Remember?"

"Uh, yeah. The follow up meeting," Fred replied as he quickly
gathered his jacket and tossed a few bills on the table. "We don't
want to be late for that, do we Sam?"

Sam and Fred hurried out of the bar as Magus and Shamus started to
argue. Sam turned left and headed down the street at a quick walk as
Fred kept pace at his side.

"Dammit Fred," Sam exclaimed. "Why the hell didn't you keep your
mouth shut. Don't you remember what happened last time?"

"I'm sorry," Fred said quietly.

"Maybe we can," Sam started to say, but was interrupted by a muffled
"whump" from the bar behind them.

Sam and Fred stopped and turned in time to see the ghostly flames of
a fireball shoot out of the now open door of Crazy Ernie's bar as
it's customers fled into the street.

Sam shoved Fred as he tersly said, "Great. There goes the money we
just earned from that run."

"What are you talking about?" Fred replied defensivly.

"Crazy Ernie saw us rush out of his bar just before Shamus and Magus
got into it. He's gonna put two and two together and bill us for the
damages," Sam answered, his eyes reflecting the spellfire leaking
from the bar with anger.

Fred shrunk back and said, "Oh."

"But," Fred continued after a short pause, "maybe now we'll finally
find out which is tougher, elementals or spirits."

Sam shook his head as a stacato of gunfire came from the bar.
Silence settled over the street. "That," Sam said "would be Ernie."
He sighed. "Come on. I'll pay Ernie while you keep Shamus and Magus
alive until Doc Wagon shows up."

Fred followed Sam back to the bar and asked, "So I guess that means
bullets are better than magic."

Sam stopped and looked at Fred coldly. "Don't even..." he said
without emotion.

Fred swallowed and for once, wisely kept his mouth shut.

-David
--
"Fortune favors the brave." - Terence
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Overused topics
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:09:20 +0000
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:13:57 EST Brett Borger wrote

> > thought I'd find out if the mage v shaman, elementals v spirits
> > topics have been done to death. If they have been could somebody
> > either tell me roughly when they were done so that I can read the
> > archives or else send me (privately) a summary. If they haven't
> > been then cry havoc and unleash the hell-hounds of war, time for
> > these debates to be had.
>
> Done to death? Yes. Many times. Conclusion? None. Obviously.
>
> The differences betwixt the two are such that each is better for
> different players. I'm all for open discussion, but this kind of
> thread leads nowhere.

I'm not really looking to see which one is better, my main reason is
that the debate would bring up the different ways that people run
magic in their games. If a GM has primarily one type of player mage
(shaman in my groups) then he gets used to one side and sometimes you
wonder about your rulings and the way you run things.
Example :
An elemental can aid sorcery at the cost of one service. When aiding
the mage can add a number of dice equal to the elementals force to
his magic pool. To do this does the elemental have to be present
(complex action to call it in) ? Does the mage have to give it a
command (simple action) ?
If yes to both of these then it will take the average mage (e.g. the
archetypes) 3 combat rounds to cast an enhanced spell which is longer
than most combats are.
How about giving orders in advance, e.g. telling the lemental that
when you cast hellblast it is to assist you and then wandering 'round
the enemy compound for 1/2 hour before casting ?
How many people apply the rule that elementals can only affect people
in the owning mages LOS ?
Etc Etc.

I find that these debates are useful because often people bring up
things you've never noticed / thought of before. It's also useful to
see how other people have (mis) understood the rules since you can
then guess how players can go wrong in their understanding.

> While I'm menitoning it, don't bother trying to find out if Phys Ads
> are better than Sammies (or visa Versa), or whether mages are more
> lethal than sammies. It does nothing but suck up bandwidth.

As said, I'm not looking for better as such just for the differences.
I agree that the better debate is pointless since if nothing else a
character is not really the stats but the intelligence of the player
behind it and how creative they are.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Overused topics
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:02:28 +0000
And verily, did David Buehrer hastily scribble thusly...
|Oh yeah. I remember those debates now. It's been awhile hasn't it?

Yup...

|Hmm...
|
|"Man, that run fraggin sucked," Sam said as he took a sip of beer
|from his mug. "I hate, repeat, hate, elementals."

<kerrrrrSNIP>
Wonderfull....
Are you going to compile all these and try to sell'em to FASA for examples
in ShRIII????

<Father Ted>
Go on.... You will you will you will...
YOU WILL!!!!!
<Father Ted>
You know you want to.....
--
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|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
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|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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