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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Thu Jul 5 18:20:01 2001
> I don't know, I'd say some items should only be available from one
> manufacurer, while other have some to chose from. So I'd say that you
> can print enough alternate names on two pages, to satisfy everyone...

Um, isn't it enough that Man & Machine devoted two pages to telling who
the big names in cyber-, Bio-, and nanoware were? There's your list
already... just use what FASA supplied. It's something that I'm sure a
minimal amount of players worry about, and when it's an issue, they can
make it up. I do some writing and for that, I've made up car and gun
names... it ain't that tough. <Megacorp/Fake Corp name> + <neat-sounding
name> = new product (same as the old product).

> Hmm....we are talking about roleplaying, not rollplaying. Spare me
> with broken rules about, say, jumping and give the game some flavour.
> I don't mean to cause any holy wars here, but it's my feeling that SR
> has gotten its soul edited out. I mean shadowtalk gave you something
> to rate the quality of items and in my game, people would look quite
> disgusted if I tried to sell them a Sandler TMP.

Its soul edited out!? That's a little harsh, eh? Personally, I think
that the newer rulebooks have included plenty of "atmosphere": take the
essay on automobiles in the 6th World that prefaces Rigger 3. Lots of good
info there that adds to my idea of the SR universe.

The shadowtalk was nice, sure, but if it was cut to give us more room for
meat, that's a good thing. Look at the Street Samurai Catalog, for
example: a typical gun entry is about 60 words, with perhaps 30 words of
shadowtalk. 90 words total, right? Per PAGE. Cannon Companion, mind you,
has maybe 650 words per page. That's a fair friggin' difference.

Yes, they could have made Cannon Companion basically a reprint of the
Street Sammy book, with shadowtalk and Nelson gun-art and one entry per
page. But we wouldn't have gotten Martial Arts rules, we woudln't have
gotten Simsense, Advanced Combat options, Amour modifications, etc. We
wouldn't have gotten anything NEW. Unless of course they did it in two
books, but frankly, I pay enough money as it is for this stuff.

> When you read a Chromebook (e.g) you're pretty much absorbed into that
> world. They
> tell you things that give you a clear picture of the setting. SR
> doesn't do this anymore. I get a list of items that look like a list
> of items in an RPG-book, not like a list of items in some catalogue
> or on some future BBS.

Now granted, I've not seen the much-touted Chromebooks, but I'd argue
that in each rulebook (maybe barring CC) there've been sections that expand
on the SR world, whether it's the preamble to Matrix and Rigger 3, or the
bits at the beginning of each M&M chapter. If there have been sacrifices
made by eliminating catalog graphics and shadowtalk, it's been worth it.

All, naturally, IM(C)O :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Fri Jul 6 05:30:05 2001
According to BD, on Fri, 06 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> The shadowtalk was nice, sure, but if it was cut to give us more room for
> meat, that's a good thing. Look at the Street Samurai Catalog, for
> example: a typical gun entry is about 60 words, with perhaps 30 words of
> shadowtalk. 90 words total, right? Per PAGE. Cannon Companion, mind you,
> has maybe 650 words per page. That's a fair friggin' difference.

That is not a good comparison. In the SSC, FASA could easily have gone for
multiple entries per page simply by scaling down the images and removing
all the clutter around the borders, letting the word count per page go up
drastically.

> Now granted, I've not seen the much-touted Chromebooks

I suggest you do look at them when you have the opportunity. IMHO they
still have the best layout for a cyberpunk game's equipment catalogs; FASA
went from one extreme (SSC, Shadowtech) to the other (CC, M&M), neither of
which really works well, IMHO. The Chromebooks have always sat in the
middle of these two approaches, and give what I think is the best of both
worlds.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Steffens)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Fri Jul 6 08:45:00 2001
> From: Gurth
[snippola]
> FASA went from one extreme (SSC, Shadowtech) to the other (CC,
> M&M), neither of which really works well, IMHO.

I tend to agree, but also think that with R3 they found a place a little
bit closer to the ideal middle. I actually liked reading that, something
I couldn't say about CC and MM.

Or maybe it's just because R3 is the ultimate customizer's wet dream...

Martin
- 1 CF left and 12 more options to install. What do you do!? -
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Fri Jul 6 17:40:01 2001
>> The shadowtalk was nice, sure, but if it was cut to give us more room
> for
>> meat, that's a good thing. Look at the Street Samurai Catalog, for
>> example: a typical gun entry is about 60 words, with perhaps 30 words
> of
>> shadowtalk. 90 words total, right? Per PAGE. Cannon Companion, mind
> you,
>> has maybe 650 words per page. That's a fair friggin' difference.

> That is not a good comparison. In the SSC, FASA could easily have gone
> for
> multiple entries per page simply by scaling down the images and removing
> all the clutter around the borders, letting the word count per page go up
> drastically.

> Gurth@******.nl

That's my point, Gurthy :) The clutter and graphics were all part of the
'atmosphere' and 'real world' effects, same as shadowtalk. You're right,
of course, CC and M&M went to the other extreme, but _I_ think it worked
out fine if they could fit more good stuff in there.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Sat Jul 7 03:35:01 2001
> That's my point, Gurthy :) The clutter and graphics were all part of the
>'atmosphere' and 'real world' effects, same as shadowtalk. You're right,
>of course, CC and M&M went to the other extreme, but _I_ think it worked
>out fine if they could fit more good stuff in there.

What I would like to see is something similar to the SSC, but made on a
semi-yearly or monthly basis. You know, something akin to a real catalog.
Of course you can only invent so many "new" arms and armaments, so there
would have to be other things. I guess more mundane items like soy
dispensers, basic amenities, housewares, kitchen merchandise and such (More
for the MacGuyvers of the group.) This brings something else to mind...

Anyone here old enough to remember Kage? I have a couple of ads for it in
some of my sourcebooks, but I found out it was discontinued before I sent
anything in. So what was in it?
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Patrick Goodman)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Sat Jul 7 10:15:01 2001
From: Valeu John EMFA
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 11:59 AM

> What I would like to see is something similar to the SSC, but made on a
> semi-yearly or monthly basis. You know, something akin to a real catalog.

This was sort of the idea behind STATE OF THE ART, though on an annual basis
rather than semi-annual. Don't know what's going to go down with that now
that life has changed so dramatically for the game....
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Oy, shadowtalk again! (was: Brand Names)
Date: Mon Jul 9 18:35:01 2001
From: "Valeu John EMFA" <ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil>
<Snip>
> Anyone here old enough to remember Kage? I have a couple of ads for it in
> some of my sourcebooks, but I found out it was discontinued before I sent
> anything in. So what was in it?

Sure, have all but the last one. You can find a list of the content at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun/kage.html (which hasn't got the last one
either). And who knows, maybe one day Gurth might actually do the overviews :-)

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen

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