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Message no. 1
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:02:30 +0100
Ok,i think tooo that with the SRII adepts sucks,but see this:

My character is a Phs adept.Ok
I buy (from the SRII)the power increase reflexes at level 2:+2d6 initiative.
And...i have 2 more magic points to spend.Now,from the shadowtech i buy
the sinaptic acelerator(sorry for the translation) that have a body index
of 1.6.Oh!i lose the 2 remainding magic points,but...

Initiative of my just created Phys.adept:4(an average)+5d6!!!And the
character is just cretaed!!yes,he is a bad adept,but with the games(is a
just created character,so the starting adventures,in my IMHO,will be less
dangerous)he spend karma in magic,or increase the reaction though INT and
QUICK.

Im sure that this is an old discussion,but i think that allow my Phys
adept to have the increase rection from the Grimoire I edition,and see
what happens.
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:59:44 GMT
Fastjack writes
>
> My character is a Phs adept.Ok
> I buy (from the SRII)the power increase reflexes at level 2:+2d6 initiative.
> And...i have 2 more magic points to spend.Now,from the shadowtech i buy
> the sinaptic acelerator(sorry for the translation) that have a body index
> of 1.6.Oh!i lose the 2 remainding magic points,but...
>
what a waste, get grade 1, friendly spells slinger with +3D6
initative and stack +3D6, inc ref (physad) 1, and synaptic2.
thats +6 bonus dice not 4 extras and leaves 3 magic points to play
with.
Oh and the spare .4 body index can be used for cyber eyes and maybe
hearing save you bying those as physad powers :)

> just created character,so the starting adventures,in my IMHO,will be less
> dangerous)he spend karma in magic,or increase the reaction though INT and
> QUICK.
Ignore the physad bonus atts, use +4 att spells, and mask, spend
powers on the awakenings utility stuff or bonus armed/unarmed/stealth
etc, you can become about twice as good as the sammies in your chosen
field.

Mark
Message no. 3
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:45:19 +0000
Fastjack wrote:


> My character is a Phs adept.Ok
> I buy (from the SRII)the power increase reflexes at level 2:+2d6 initiative.
> And...i have 2 more magic points to spend.Now,from the shadowtech i buy
> the sinaptic acelerator(sorry for the translation) that have a body index
> of 1.6.Oh!i lose the 2 remainding magic points,but...

I do not allow a PA to buy 'ware to increase an area that is already
increased via magic. Why? Because the PA has developed the ability
to augment his natural form and not an implant.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 4
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 09:25:41 GMT
Droopy (droopy@*******.NB.NET) wrote:
: Fastjack wrote:
: > My character is a Phs adept.Ok
: > I buy (from the SRII)the power increase reflexes at level 2:+2d6 initiative.
: > And...i have 2 more magic points to spend.Now,from the shadowtech i buy
: > the sinaptic acelerator(sorry for the translation) that have a body index
: > of 1.6.Oh!i lose the 2 remainding magic points,but...
:
: I do not allow a PA to buy 'ware to increase an area that is already
: increased via magic. Why? Because the PA has developed the ability
: to augment his natural form and not an implant.

Exactly. And the books say quite clear that the Bioware augmented
attribute is treated as a NATURAL attribute - that is why Bioware
reflexes can be increased by spells...

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:35:16 -0700
<snip, PA reflexes/cyber/bio)

> : I do not allow a PA to buy 'ware to increase an area that is already
> : increased via magic. Why? Because the PA has developed the ability
> : to augment his natural form and not an implant.
>
> Exactly. And the books say quite clear that the Bioware augmented
> attribute is treated as a NATURAL attribute - that is why Bioware
> reflexes can be increased by spells...

This is *NOT* intended as a flame, however, that strikes me as being
REALLY munchkinous. A consistent theme throughout SRII rules is that all
forms of Reflex enhancement are NOT compatible; for balance if nothing
else. I am a firm believer in that. That is why there is no Inc Cyber
Reflexes spell. The only case in which reflex increaser could be
stacked, is the case of the MBW and Synaptic Accel-1... and even then it
costs an arm and a leg. Even if it is not stated specifically that
Bio/Magic increases cannot be stacked. . .

-Tom-
Message no. 6
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:33:48 +0000
Georg wrote:

> : I do not allow a PA to buy 'ware to increase an area that is already
> : increased via magic. Why? Because the PA has developed the ability
> : to augment his natural form and not an implant.
>
> Exactly. And the books say quite clear that the Bioware augmented
> attribute is treated as a NATURAL attribute - that is why Bioware
> reflexes can be increased by spells...

ok, ok....lets look at this logically.....I spend 6 years training my
mind and body to reach the absolute limit in an area, be it strength,
running or whatever....then you come along and rip out or alter that
part of my body....Guess what happens? All of that training is down
the crapper.

Why? Because you have to retrain yourself and the new and/or
improved parts are STILL not truly a part of you. This is why
bioware reduces a PA's magic.

If bioware was treated as 'natural' then you wouldn't have an essense
loss.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 7
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 01:40:17 -0700
<snip, PA refs>

> Why? Because you have to retrain yourself and the new and/or
> improved parts are STILL not truly a part of you. This is why
> bioware reduces a PA's magic.
>
> If bioware was treated as 'natural' then you wouldn't have an essense
> loss.

On that note, in my group we have a house rule concerning mages and
bioware: Bioware DOES NOT reduce essence like cyber does in magically
actives, however it STILL reduces Magic Rating AS IF it were reducing
essence. It just didn't make sense to us that Bioware DIDN'T reduce
essence in a sammie, but then it DID reduce essence in a mage... although
I completely agree with bio reducing MR.

-Tom
Message no. 8
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:50:19 GMT
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) (3011_3@***.EDU) wrote:

: > Exactly. And the books say quite clear that the Bioware augmented
: > attribute is treated as a NATURAL attribute - that is why Bioware
: > reflexes can be increased by spells...
:
: This is *NOT* intended as a flame, however, that strikes me as being
: REALLY munchkinous. A consistent theme throughout SRII rules is that all

If you say so - we experienced that this rule is not munchkinous at
all because our Sammys still go before people with Bioware+Spell AND
the Spell requires someone to cast, you need to hide it and so on, so
it requires some roleplaying to keep it alife.

: forms of Reflex enhancement are NOT compatible; for balance if nothing
: else. I am a firm believer in that. That is why there is no Inc Cyber

It is always so nice to have people that believe in something. ;-)

: Reflexes spell. The only case in which reflex increaser could be
: stacked, is the case of the MBW and Synaptic Accel-1... and even then it

Ah - and that isn't munchkinous ? VERY interesting point of view, I'd say.

: costs an arm and a leg. Even if it is not stated specifically that
: Bio/Magic increases cannot be stacked. . .

The opposite is true - it is stated specifically that Bio/Magic
increases can be stacked. Just take a look at the rules. Bioware
ALWAYS counts as natural attribute...

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:31:08 GMT
Droopy (droopy@*******.NB.NET) wrote:

: ok, ok....lets look at this logically.....I spend 6 years training my
: mind and body to reach the absolute limit in an area, be it strength,
: running or whatever....then you come along and rip out or alter that
: part of my body....Guess what happens? All of that training is down
: the crapper.

Huh ? Not at all - if you alter something (like enlarging the neural
paths for higher initiative as you do when getting the Bioware
augmentation we are talking about) you still have your
skills... everything else stays the same.

: Why? Because you have to retrain yourself and the new and/or
: improved parts are STILL not truly a part of you. This is why
: bioware reduces a PA's magic.

Huh ? You just alter the existing part - no replacement is done, so
it has no effect whatsoever on your skills.

: If bioware was treated as 'natural' then you wouldn't have an essense
: loss.

Right. Bioware does not cause essence loss - we are talking about
Bioware here, not about Cyberware. Your arguments would maybe apply to
Cyberware (although only partially - in my eyes the magic/skill loss
is due to psychological effects, but this is something else).

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 10
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:11:41 -0700
<SUPER SNIP>

<snip, SynAcc-1 + MBW)

> Ah - and that isn't munchkinous ? VERY interesting point of view, I'd say.

I didn's say that it was or wasn't, I just said that the rules stated
that it was allowable.

> The opposite is true - it is stated specifically that Bio/Magic
> increases can be stacked. Just take a look at the rules. Bioware
> ALWAYS counts as natural attribute...

Could you get me a book/page number? Thanks... (I don't remember
if/where it says that)

-Tom
Message no. 11
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:43:16 -0500
>On that note, in my group we have a house rule concerning mages and
>bioware: Bioware DOES NOT reduce essence like cyber does in magically
>actives, however it STILL reduces Magic Rating AS IF it were reducing
>essence. It just didn't make sense to us that Bioware DIDN'T reduce
>essence in a sammie, but then it DID reduce essence in a mage... although
>I completely agree with bio reducing MR.
>
When I GM I use this rule also, however, my reasoning goes, why should too
much bioware KILL a magically active character (essence loss below zero)
when anyone else wouldn't notice any negative effects at all?

--Sanction
Message no. 12
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:34:09 -0500
On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:

> > The opposite is true - it is stated specifically that Bio/Magic
> > increases can be stacked. Just take a look at the rules. Bioware
> > ALWAYS counts as natural attribute...
>
> Could you get me a book/page number? Thanks... (I don't remember
> if/where it says that)


Shadowtech, p 6. First paragraph on the page.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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Message no. 13
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:54:25 +0000
Georg wrote:

> : part of my body....Guess what happens? All of that training is down
> : the crapper.
>
> Huh ? Not at all - if you alter something (like enlarging the neural
> paths for higher initiative as you do when getting the Bioware
> augmentation we are talking about) you still have your
> skills... everything else stays the same.

If you add turbo to your car, does it work the same? No. You have
to alter other parts of it to achieve balance again. You see, it's
all about balance. When an athlete alters his physical state, he
must retrain to acheive that balance. Perhaps, one day, he will
regain the level he was at, but it will not be the same. Ask anybody
who's destroyed their ACL.

> Huh ? You just alter the existing part - no replacement is done, so
> it has no effect whatsoever on your skills.

Sure it does. The more fine tuned something is, the less it takes to
throw it out of whack.

> : If bioware was treated as 'natural' then you wouldn't have an essense
> : loss.
> Right. Bioware does not cause essence loss - we are talking about
> Bioware here, not about Cyberware. Your arguments would maybe apply to
> Cyberware (although only partially - in my eyes the magic/skill loss
> is due to psychological effects, but this is something else).

Ok, I'll have to quote the rulebook, I see....Shadowtech, pg 5:

"As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active
(magicians and adepts), these characters must spend essence and add
to their body index when selecting bioware. ...."

Sure looks like bioware costs essence for a PA to me. Maybe I'm
reading that wrong.

I have something to say about the essence loss from cyberware, but
will hold my tongue untill I can recall the source.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 14
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:39:33 GMT
Droopy (droopy@*******.NB.NET) wrote:

: If you add turbo to your car, does it work the same? No. You have
: to alter other parts of it to achieve balance again. You see, it's
: all about balance. When an athlete alters his physical state, he
: must retrain to acheive that balance. Perhaps, one day, he will
: regain the level he was at, but it will not be the same. Ask anybody
: who's destroyed their ACL.

Comparing man with machine is not a proper example here... especially
when we are talking about magical characters here.

: > Huh ? You just alter the existing part - no replacement is done, so
: > it has no effect whatsoever on your skills.
: Sure it does. The more fine tuned something is, the less it takes to
: throw it out of whack.

O.k. - bioware does change the fine tuning because it gets even better
(although you need to get used to it - that's what losing those magic
points is all about).

: > : If bioware was treated as 'natural' then you wouldn't have an essense
: > : loss.
: > Right. Bioware does not cause essence loss - we are talking about
: > Bioware here, not about Cyberware. Your arguments would maybe apply to
: > Cyberware (although only partially - in my eyes the magic/skill loss
: > is due to psychological effects, but this is something else).
: Ok, I'll have to quote the rulebook, I see....Shadowtech, pg 5:
: "As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active
: (magicians and adepts), these characters must spend essence and add
: to their body index when selecting bioware. ...."

So do I ... Shaowtech pg 5:
"In all cases, the Body Index is merely an indicator; no 'real' Body
is ever actually lost in acquiring bioware."

It boils down to:

Essence cost = Body cost
Body cost = 0 (merely indicator)

hence

Essence cost = 0 (merely indicator)

: Sure looks like bioware costs essence for a PA to me. Maybe I'm
: reading that wrong.

The problem is you can actuall read it both ways and have to decide
which one is making more sense. I always considered it strange that a
mage should take Cyberware instead of Bioware because if Bioware would
cost essence that would be more magic friendly... sorry, that just
does not make any sense in my eyes.

: I have something to say about the essence loss from cyberware, but
: will hold my tongue untill I can recall the source.

Huh ? Cyberware definitely costs essence ! ;-)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 15
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:28:23 GMT
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) (3011_3@***.EDU) wrote:

: > The opposite is true - it is stated specifically that Bio/Magic
: > increases can be stacked. Just take a look at the rules. Bioware
: > ALWAYS counts as natural attribute...
: Could you get me a book/page number? Thanks... (I don't remember
: if/where it says that)

Shadowtech p.6, top left:

"Treat bioware augmentations as base attributes in all cases
(including when figuring astral space attributes)."

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 16
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:32:09 GMT
Sanction (david.s.thompson@****.EDU) wrote:

: When I GM I use this rule also, however, my reasoning goes, why should too
: much bioware KILL a magically active character (essence loss below zero)
: when anyone else wouldn't notice any negative effects at all?

Exactly - there is another funny point about it. Think about a
non-initiate getting 5.5 points worth of bioware - that makes him
mundane on the spot... so if he had to pay essence for the bioware in
the first place, what happens now ? Does he get it back ? The rules
say essence doesn't come back, but he is a mundane without any
cyberware so he should have all 6 points of essence... bioware costing
essence leads to strange situations.

Btw. The rules are written in such a bad way that BOTH readings are
very possible, so we decided to go for what makes most sense in our
eyes: Bioware costs magic AS IF it had cost essence, but no actual
essence is ever lost.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:21:04 -0700
Georg Greve wrote:
|
|Bioware costs magic AS IF it had cost essence, but no actual
|essence is ever lost.

Agreed.

I'll raise the other issue that comes up with this thread
right now.

If a mage has bio- and cyberware how does he figure the
magic loss? Does he round the effects seperately (1.4
(round up to 2) of cyber- and 1.4 (round up to 2) of
bioware = -4 points of magic)? Or, does he add the bio-
and cyberware costs together before rounding (1.4 of cyber-
plus 1.4 of bioware = 2.8, rounded up equals -3 points of
magic)?

Cruel GMs go with the first option. Less cruel GMs :) go
with the second option.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 18
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:48:08 -0500
Georg Greve (greve@*******.HANSE.DE) wrote:

>Exactly - there is another funny point about it. Think about a
>non-initiate getting 5.5 points worth of bioware - that makes him
>mundane on the spot... so if he had to pay essence for the bioware in
>the first place, what happens now ? Does he get it back ? The rules
>say essence doesn't come back, but he is a mundane without any
>cyberware so he should have all 6 points of essence... bioware costing
>essence leads to strange situations.
>

Thanks, I knew I had another reason, but I forgot what is was -- that was it.

>Btw. The rules are written in such a bad way that BOTH readings are
>very possible, so we decided to go for what makes most sense in our
>eyes: Bioware costs magic AS IF it had cost essence, but no actual
>essence is ever lost.

Yep, this way has the same game effect of limiting implantation into a
magically active character, but, none of the confusion. That is why I like it.

--Sanction
Message no. 19
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:55:06 -0500
At 08:21 AM 11/18/96 -0700, David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> wrote:

>
>If a mage has bio- and cyberware how does he figure the
>magic loss? Does he round the effects seperately (1.4
>(round up to 2) of cyber- and 1.4 (round up to 2) of
>bioware = -4 points of magic)? Or, does he add the bio-
>and cyberware costs together before rounding (1.4 of cyber-
>plus 1.4 of bioware = 2.8, rounded up equals -3 points of
>magic)?

My system is to seperately track essence and magic. So, no rounding until
the very end. This means that, in the current example
essence = 4.6
bod index = 1.4 (because I don't count bioware as costing ANYONE essence)
magic = essence - bod index = 4.6 - 1.4 = 3.2
rounded to 3.

But, to keep track of that 3.2 magic so that later, if another .1 or .2 of
cyber or bioware is implanted, magic rating is still 3.

So, magic rating = essence - bod index
round the result for use in game terms, but not for use in later
calculations.

Does that make me a less-less cruel GM?

--Sanction
Message no. 20
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:48:48 +0000
On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> |Bioware costs magic AS IF it had cost essence, but no actual
> |essence is ever lost.
>
> Agreed.
I use this ruling too, I think quite a lot of people do.

> If a mage has bio- and cyberware how does he figure the
> magic loss? Does he round the effects seperately (1.4
> (round up to 2) of cyber- and 1.4 (round up to 2) of
> bioware = -4 points of magic)? Or, does he add the bio-
> and cyberware costs together before rounding (1.4 of cyber-
> plus 1.4 of bioware = 2.8, rounded up equals -3 points of
> magic)?
I would say the latter as if you go by teh book and bioware also decreases
essence for magicians then you would have lost 2.8 essence leaving 3.2
essence and therefore 3 magic points.


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
Message no. 21
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:47:27 +1100
> > Right. Bioware does not cause essence loss - we are talking about
> > Bioware here, not about Cyberware. Your arguments would maybe apply to
> > Cyberware (although only partially - in my eyes the magic/skill loss
> > is due to psychological effects, but this is something else).

<snip>

> Sure looks like bioware costs essence for a PA to me. Maybe I'm
> reading that wrong.

I think you'll find that whoever made the comment above (sorry, can't
remember) was referring to the widely-implemented house rule that bioware
does not cause essence loss, but causes magic loss in the same WAY that
essence loss does. I think most groups implement this rule to cover the
perceived "last-minute" decision by FASA, to cover the fact that magicians
would be able to implant bioware with no penalty, and that FASA is seen to
have stuffed up when writing that rule in a hurry.

Like someone said - why should bioware be able to kill a magically active
character by taking their essence under 0 when it wouldn't do the same for
a mundane?

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:04:49 GMT
David Buehrer (dbuehrer@****.ORG) wrote:
: Georg Greve wrote:
: |Bioware costs magic AS IF it had cost essence, but no actual
: |essence is ever lost.
: Agreed.

Thanks. *smile*

: I'll raise the other issue that comes up with this thread
: right now.

Another can of worms ? Argh - take cover ! ;-)))

: If a mage has bio- and cyberware how does he figure the
: magic loss? Does he round the effects seperately (1.4
: (round up to 2) of cyber- and 1.4 (round up to 2) of
: bioware = -4 points of magic)? Or, does he add the bio-
: and cyberware costs together before rounding (1.4 of cyber-
: plus 1.4 of bioware = 2.8, rounded up equals -3 points of
: magic)?
: Cruel GMs go with the first option. Less cruel GMs :) go
: with the second option.

I have to admit I'd tend towards the second opinion but you could as
well justify the first one. This is probably something each GM has to
decide for himself.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 23
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:28:53 -0500
A thought occurred to me.
Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)

The Attributes are:

Body
Quickness
Strength
Charisma
Intelligence
Willpower
Essence
Magic
Reaction

Initiative is not an Attribute. SRII page 42 lists them, and there are
either

So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
(except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.

Anyone find any evidence to refute? If not, then there is certainly no
reason to allow ShadowTech p.6 to be a lever to allow PAs to use Bio/Cyber
to add up their Initiative increases....

IMO, of course.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 24
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes (fwd)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:04:28 -0500
>>>[ Drek. I somehow tossed out an unfinished message. Well here's the
complete message. Not much got left out, but it's an irritant anyway. ]<<<
- Allison


A thought occurred to me.
Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)

The Attributes are:

Body
Quickness
Strength
Charisma
Intelligence
Willpower
Essence
(Magic)
Reaction

Initiative is not an Attribute. SRII page 42 lists them, and there are
either 8 or 9 (if one is not or is Magically Active, respectively)
attributes. All 8 (9) are listed above.

So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
(except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.

Anyone find any evidence to refute? If not, then there is certainly no
reason to allow ShadowTech p.6 to be a lever to allow PAs to use Bio/Cyber
to add up their Initiative increases....

IMO, of course.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 25
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:21:16 GMT
Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
: A thought occurred to me.
: Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)
: ...
: So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
: (except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.

Ah - o.k. - so they can't use the "Increase Initiative" spell, huh ?
Luckily they can still use the "Increase Reaction" spell, because it
is an attribute as you stated above.

: Anyone find any evidence to refute? If not, then there is certainly no
: reason to allow ShadowTech p.6 to be a lever to allow PAs to use Bio/Cyber
: to add up their Initiative increases....

I think this is just too much hunting fleas - your initiative is just
the sum of all your D6 added to your reaction... so this cannot be an
attribute, because it is just an equation that has no fixed value like
an attribute has.

The main point is that bioware is ALWAYS meant to count as your
natural attribute - the only exception, i.e. when calculating your
maximum Body Index is explicitly stated which implies that there are
no other exceptions.

: IMO, of course.

Isn't it always ? ;-)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 26
From: Pete <Pete@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:40:06 +0000
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.961118191606.221E-100000@*******.wam.umd.edu>,
Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU> writes
> A thought occurred to me.
> Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)

Good, I'm glad to hear it. I have so few of those that I treat them
very well indeed :)

[snip attributes]
> Initiative is not an Attribute. SRII page 42 lists them, and there are
>either

No it's not.. :)

> So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
>(except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.
>
> Anyone find any evidence to refute? If not, then there is certainly no
>reason to allow ShadowTech p.6 to be a lever to allow PAs to use Bio/Cyber
>to add up their Initiative increases....


Ahh... Although Initiative is *not* an attribute it is the average of
two attributes, so in interpretation it can be taken as a natural
attribute, as it is a result of said items.. :) However, I don't tend
to do things that way, but then, I don't like PhysAds anyway and neither
do my players.... :)

I won't allow bio/cyber attribute increases to PhysAds. My logic of this
is that they are "Physical" Adepts, any sort of alternative alteration
of their system goes against their philosophy. If they take bio/cyber
enhancements, then they lose the abilities gained as a PhysAd, however,
to compensate for that, I do allow them a certain leeway as regards
speed and ability, but only at higher karma/skill levels. A physical
adept should be every bit as scarey as a full fledged street sam, but
not immediately, that only comes with experience, and training. Fairly
new characters I'm afraid will have to suffer along with the other
mundanes in my world. While the Sam is lord of the streets, the PhysAd
is in the dojo practicing.

I know there are all sorts of arguments that Bioware *is* physical, but
it still requires invasive surgery and alters the body by it's
placement, it is not part of the body, and was not a natural
development, it was put there, therefore, it goes against their
philosophical approach to their abilities. If this was not the case,
then you'd just have a melee capable street samurai with a distaste for
firearms... and that's no fun at all.


--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 27
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 22:46:03 -0600
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Pete wrote:

> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.961118191606.221E-100000@*******.wam.umd.edu>,
> Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU> writes
> > A thought occurred to me.
> > Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)
>
> Good, I'm glad to hear it. I have so few of those that I treat them
> very well indeed :)
>
> [snip attributes]
> > Initiative is not an Attribute. SRII page 42 lists them, and there are
> >either
>
> No it's not.. :)
>
> > So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
> >(except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.
> >
> > Anyone find any evidence to refute? If not, then there is certainly no
> >reason to allow ShadowTech p.6 to be a lever to allow PAs to use Bio/Cyber
> >to add up their Initiative increases....
>
>
> Ahh... Although Initiative is *not* an attribute it is the average of
> two attributes, so in interpretation it can be taken as a natural
> attribute, as it is a result of said items.. :) However, I don't tend

Uhhh, I think you've gotten a little confused here. Initiative is _not_
the average of two attributes, you must be thinking of reaction.
Although reaction is a major part of initiative, initiative is not
completely dependant on reaction, but also on the addition of however many
D6's you get to roll for it. Just thought I'd clarify.

-Q


---------------------------------------
Should "anal-retentive" be hyphenated?

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 28
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:26:26 +0000
Lady Jestyr wrote:

> Like someone said - why should bioware be able to kill a magically active
> character by taking their essence under 0 when it wouldn't do the same for
> a mundane?

I agree completely, this was just to support my feeling that bioware
should not enhance a PA's magicly enhanced powers. I don't charge
anyone essence for bioware.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 29
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:26:26 +0000
Georg wrote:

> : So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
> : (except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.
>
> Ah - o.k. - so they can't use the "Increase Initiative" spell, huh ?
> Luckily they can still use the "Increase Reaction" spell, because it
> is an attribute as you stated above.

By you're reasoning, I can stack even cyberware on top of a PA's
magicly increased attribute. That just doesn't make any sense.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 30
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:26:26 +0000
Georg wrote:

> : If you add turbo to your car, does it work the same? No. You have
> : to alter other parts of it to achieve balance again. You see, it's
> : all about balance. When an athlete alters his physical state, he
> : must retrain to acheive that balance. Perhaps, one day, he will
> : regain the level he was at, but it will not be the same. Ask anybody
> : who's destroyed their ACL.
>
> Comparing man with machine is not a proper example here... especially
> when we are talking about magical characters here.

Actually, once you get past the 2nd sentence, I am talking about man.

> O.k. - bioware does change the fine tuning because it gets even better
> (although you need to get used to it - that's what losing those magic
> points is all about).

Better in what sense? Sure, you're faster (or whatever) but it's not
really a part of you. Your training did not make you faster, a piece
of equipment did. Also, whereas you can improve your body through
training, you cannot improve your bioware through training.


> : > Right. Bioware does not cause essence loss - we are talking about
> : Ok, I'll have to quote the rulebook, I see....Shadowtech, pg 5:
> : "As physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active
> : (magicians and adepts), these characters must spend essence and add
> : to their body index when selecting bioware. ...."
>
> So do I ... Shaowtech pg 5:
> "In all cases, the Body Index is merely an indicator; no 'real' Body
> is ever actually lost in acquiring bioware."

And this has exactly what to do with anything? The sentence you
quoted is just telling you that you don't decrease the character's
actual body.

> It boils down to:
> Essence cost = Body cost
> Body cost = 0 (merely indicator)
> hence
> Essence cost = 0 (merely indicator)

I'm not saying that I agree with the essence loss, but I certainly do
agree with the magic loss, and do not see how you could artificially
enhance an attribute that was already enhanced through training and
magic.

> The problem is you can actuall read it both ways and have to decide
> which one is making more sense. I always considered it strange that a

No you can't. The rules are quite clear on the matter of essence
loss for magicly active characters.

> mage should take Cyberware instead of Bioware because if Bioware would
> cost essence that would be more magic friendly... sorry, that just
> does not make any sense in my eyes.

Lost me here.

> : I have something to say about the essence loss from cyberware, but
> : will hold my tongue untill I can recall the source.
>
> Huh ? Cyberware definitely costs essence ! ;-)

Not IF it does, but WHY it does. I can't remember if it was Paul who
explained it, but it went something like this....It is harder to heal
someone with a lower essence because their physical form does not
match their spirit. You die at essence 0 because the body is now too
different from the spirit and the spirit leaves.


--Droopy

droopy@**.net
Message no. 31
From: Jker77@***.COM
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:41:46 -0500
the reasoning goes like this...your astral self (soul, essence, whatever...)
considers your body a "home". Noting more, nothing less. When you implant
cyberware the "home" becomes unrecognizable to the astral self. The astral
doesn't want to be there because it thinks it has the wrong address.
Message no. 32
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:50:46 -0500
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Georg Greve wrote:
> Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
> : A thought occurred to me.
> : Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)
> : ...
> : So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
> : (except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.
>
> Ah - o.k. - so they can't use the "Increase Initiative" spell, huh ?
> Luckily they can still use the "Increase Reaction" spell, because it
> is an attribute as you stated above.

Hey now, don't go misrepresenting what I said...

I said nothing about what PAs may or may not use in the way of spells.

> I think this is just too much hunting fleas - your initiative is just
> the sum of all your D6 added to your reaction... so this cannot be an
> attribute, because it is just an equation that has no fixed value like
> an attribute has.

You may think it's hunting fleas, but the fact is that it's something
nobody really wants to consider if they're benefiting from it.
And I wasn't speaking of your Initiative for a particular combat turn,
which *is* something which changes each turn. I was speaking of your
Initiative which is a constant + some D6. That's a fixed value as much as
any Attribute is a fixed value.

> The main point is that bioware is ALWAYS meant to count as your
> natural attribute - the only exception, i.e. when calculating your
> maximum Body Index is explicitly stated which implies that there are
> no other exceptions.

No, my main point was that though bioware increases count as natural
attributes, Init is not an attribute.
So PA abilities cannot stack on top of bioware-enhanced Initiative.

(Personally I'm beginning to see a pattern in the places FASA leaves
unspecified in its rulebooks. I think they enjoy us going round and round
over such things...)


Ah yes, just because bioware can affect something, doesn't make that
'something' an attribute. If it is though, then a PA ability should be
able to stack on top of it. Personally, I'd apply the PA attribute
increase first. (It's more natural for that character.)



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:51:58 +0100
David Buehrer said on 8:21/18 Nov 96...

> |Bioware costs magic AS IF it had cost essence, but no actual
> |essence is ever lost.
>
> Agreed.

That's what I use as well. Losing Essence makes no sense to me.

> I'll raise the other issue that comes up with this thread
> right now.
>
> If a mage has bio- and cyberware how does he figure the
> magic loss? Does he round the effects seperately (1.4
> (round up to 2) of cyber- and 1.4 (round up to 2) of
> bioware = -4 points of magic)? Or, does he add the bio-
> and cyberware costs together before rounding (1.4 of cyber-
> plus 1.4 of bioware = 2.8, rounded up equals -3 points of
> magic)?

I take the second and least destructive of the two: subtract Body Index
from Essence, and then round down. However, I haven't seen a magically
active character who mattered with both cyberware and bioware in my
campaign yet.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's when it all gets blown away.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:43:55 -0500
> Georg wrote:
>
> > : So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
> > : (except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.
> >
> > Ah - o.k. - so they can't use the "Increase Initiative" spell, huh ?
> > Luckily they can still use the "Increase Reaction" spell, because it
> > is an attribute as you stated above.
>
> By you're reasoning, I can stack even cyberware on top of a PA's
> magicly increased attribute. That just doesn't make any sense.

Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So
you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei, I
have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the hard
workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you through a
training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
flame me all you want.
Message no. 35
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:13:14 GMT
Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
: On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Georg Greve wrote:
: > Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
: > : A thought occurred to me.
: > : Yes, I'm treating it kindly. :)
: > : ...
: > : So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
: > : (except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.
: > Ah - o.k. - so they can't use the "Increase Initiative" spell, huh ?
: > Luckily they can still use the "Increase Reaction" spell, because it
: > is an attribute as you stated above.
: Hey now, don't go misrepresenting what I said...
: I said nothing about what PAs may or may not use in the way of spells.

Sorry, I just used the same means on your statements you used on the
FASA statements - so if your use of this is justified you will have to
accept others doing the same as well.

: You may think it's hunting fleas, but the fact is that it's something
: nobody really wants to consider if they're benefiting from it.
: And I wasn't speaking of your Initiative for a particular combat turn,
: which *is* something which changes each turn. I was speaking of your
: Initiative which is a constant + some D6. That's a fixed value as much as
: any Attribute is a fixed value.

I am sorry I have to contradict, but in our group a D6 is a random
value between 1 and 6 and not a fixed value... so initiative ALWAYS is
an EQUATION and not a fixed value like attributes are.

: No, my main point was that though bioware increases count as natural
: attributes, Init is not an attribute.
: So PA abilities cannot stack on top of bioware-enhanced Initiative.

Ini is the sum of your reaction attribute PLUS your "dice attribute"
if you want so, but noone ever used that because there was no need to...
by the way: If you say the PA power cannot affect them then you have
to say spells may not affect them as well... as well as that the PA
power does not stack with spells. This would just give you one variety
of PAs: dead ones !

: (Personally I'm beginning to see a pattern in the places FASA leaves
: unspecified in its rulebooks. I think they enjoy us going round and round
: over such things...)

Sure they do... that way we spend way too much time discussing these
topics. ;-)

: Ah yes, just because bioware can affect something, doesn't make that
: 'something' an attribute. If it is though, then a PA ability should be
: able to stack on top of it. Personally, I'd apply the PA attribute
: increase first. (It's more natural for that character.)

Whatever is affected by bioware is considered "natural" - that is the
main consense the rulebooks have. The ONLY exception to that is the
bioware body increases are not counted for the maximum amount of
bioware you may get.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 36
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:56:24 -0800
> the reasoning goes like this...your astral self (soul, essence, whatever...)
> considers your body a "home". Noting more, nothing less. When you implant
> cyberware the "home" becomes unrecognizable to the astral self. The astral
> doesn't want to be there because it thinks it has the wrong address.

GOOD ANALOGY...(I think Cybertech says the samething in much more words)

If you consider a magician's magic as a funtion of his *original* astral
self...It's not difficult to see why Bio- and Cyberware reduce Magic. The more
you deviate from the ORIGINAL astral pattern in UN-natural ways (no matter how
you do it, BIO-WARE is still UN-natural, it may be organic, but it was grown in
a jar.) the less Magic you can access.

Hope that clears any muddy waters..

~Tim
Message no. 37
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:29:53 -0800
[snip other stuff]

> I take the second and least destructive of the two: subtract Body Index
> from Essence, and then round down. However, I haven't seen a magically
> active character who mattered with both cyberware and bioware in my
> campaign yet.

You never met Samhain. He was a Elemental Adept (fire) who was about as chromed
(with bio too) as my current Sam, and a hell of a lot more dangrous in a melee
fight (special skill: Dual weapon fighting style (implanted mono-whip and spurs)
). Threw a mean "Flamethrower" too. He straddled the munchkin fence a bit too.

Anybody have any strong feelings about Spurs as a Weapon focus? (It's dangerous,
but effective)
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Message no. 38
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:16:05 GMT
Droopy (droopy@*******.NB.NET) wrote:
: Georg wrote:
: > : So, even if PAs *do* treat Attribute increases as natural in all cases
: > : (except for Max BI).... that doesn't include their Initiative.

: > Ah - o.k. - so they can't use the "Increase Initiative" spell, huh ?
: > Luckily they can still use the "Increase Reaction" spell, because it
: > is an attribute as you stated above.

: By you're reasoning, I can stack even cyberware on top of a PA's
: magicly increased attribute. That just doesn't make any sense.

Nope. You should have read my posting carefully - we were talking
about BIOWARE here which is counted as NATURAL, of course CYBERWARE is
purely artificial, but noone was talking about that.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 39
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:45:22 -0800
> Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
> stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
> not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
> you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
> special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
> example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
> wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So
> you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
> doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
> used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei, I
> have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
> says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the hard
> workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you through
a
> training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
> you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
> harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
> flame me all you want.

Would you agree with a Physad using "Boost Strength" to increase the strength
attribute on his cyber-arm?

The same thing applies with other augmentations. Check an earlier post on this
same thread about the analogy of the body and essence and the spirit etc..
You can only use your magic to enhance things that exist in your original Astral
Self/Spirit. No matter what it is either build or vat-grown, if it's not
connected to that Essence/Spirit (what-ever) then it's not connected to the
magic, or can't be ehanced by the magic.

~Tim
Message no. 40
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:57:56 -0500
>
> Would you agree with a Physad using "Boost Strength" to increase the
strength
> attribute on his cyber-arm?

Bad example...in boost strength, it says that it can't be used with
basically anything else, including spells. (Never really understood why
one would use boosted strength anyway, with the rules set up like they
are)
>
> The same thing applies with other augmentations. Check an earlier post on this
> same thread about the analogy of the body and essence and the spirit etc..
> You can only use your magic to enhance things that exist in your original Astral
> Self/Spirit. No matter what it is either build or vat-grown, if it's not
> connected to that Essence/Spirit (what-ever) then it's not connected to the
> magic, or can't be ehanced by the magic.

I disagree, but slightly off the topic then: How about stacking spells
and phs adept powers?
Message no. 41
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:54:45 -0500
>I know there are all sorts of arguments that Bioware *is* physical, but
>it still requires invasive surgery and alters the body by it's
>placement, it is not part of the body, and was not a natural
>development, it was put there, therefore, it goes against their
>philosophical approach to their abilities. If this was not the case,
>then you'd just have a melee capable street samurai with a distaste for
>firearms... and that's no fun at all.

I think we are all forgetting something. The fact that cyber/bio is not
natural for a phsyad is reflected in the rules. If they implant anything in
themselves, they loose essence (or magic only if you use the optional
bioware rule). This means that automatically they have many fewer physad
powers. So, it seems to me that they can combine cyber/bio with whatever
meager physad powers they can still afford with lowered magic rating,
without restriction. It is like penalizing them twice for implanting -- not
only do they have fewer physad powers, but, there are now also limits on
what can be combined with what.

However, despite all I just said, I think that a physad has no business
implanting any major form of cyber. The whole point of the character is
that they perfect themselves and their style of combat. That means that
from a character standpoint they should despise the mere idea of
implantation much like the Tir elves or Eagle (I think, one of the birds
anyway) shamans. Even if they are physads who concentrate on firearms
(perfectly acceptable, I seem to remember one of the sourcebooks refering to
a physad who was a gunnery sergeant -- like the guy who shoots artillery),
they should concentrate on physad powers like enhanced centering as opposed
to implanting smartlink II's and trying to be just like that sammie.

Another point about wired reflexes vs. phsyad powers -- I've always treated
wired reflexes much like Hatchetman refers to them in Cybertech, very hard
to control, in fact, often overpowering your own decisions. However, I've
always assumed that physads because of their training and dedication have no
such drawback, and are therefore much more level headed and reliable. It is
the difference between someone who is playing with a new toy (in this case a
new nervous system) and someone who is putting to use skills and abilities
developed only after years of dedicated training.

A starting sammie may be able to dominate a starting physad, but the physad
can grow so much more through experience -- initiation, increased magic
rating, etc.

The difference is in style, something that has been stressed here recently,
physad have it, and sammies don't.

--Sanction
Message no. 42
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:18:39 -0800
>
> >
> > Would you agree with a Physad using "Boost Strength" to increase the
strength
> > attribute on his cyber-arm?
>
> Bad example...in boost strength, it says that it can't be used with
> basically anything else, including spells. (Never really understood why
> one would use boosted strength anyway, with the rules set up like they
> are)

Sorry, I meant to say Increased Strength..in a nut shell using any Physad strength
enhancement to boost the Strength of a Cyberarm.

> >
> > The same thing applies with other augmentations. Check an earlier post on this
> > same thread about the analogy of the body and essence and the spirit etc..
> > You can only use your magic to enhance things that exist in your original Astral
> > Self/Spirit. No matter what it is either build or vat-grown, if it's not
> > connected to that Essence/Spirit (what-ever) then it's not connected to the
> > magic, or can't be ehanced by the magic.
>
> I disagree, but slightly off the topic then: How about stacking spells
> and phs adept powers?

It may not be perfect, but its a rationalization for not letting some fragger stack
wired 2 and increased reflexes to get a purely munchkin effect that is contrary to
the "spirit" or theme of the concept.

I have no problem stacking spells and Physad powers. The spells are designed to
alter or enhance stuff, and if calibrated right, should work.

A GM might require that a spell be tailored to that type of thing, maybe not.

~Tim
Message no. 43
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:29:36 -0500
>Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
>stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
>not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
>you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
>special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
>example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
>wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So
>you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
>doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
>used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei, I
>have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
>says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the hard
>workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you through a
>training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
>you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
>harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
>flame me all you want.
>
I agree completely so I'll bask in the fires with you. I'd go so far as to
apply this to initiative boosters also. The real point is, there had better
be a damn good reason for the character to have the 'ware, otherwise the
player is simply trying to min/max blindly.

--Sanction
Message no. 44
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:33:29 -0800
> >Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
> >stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
> >not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
> >you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
> >special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
> >example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
> >wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So

If the **Troll's** down why would you expect the Physad to still be walking around?


> >you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
> >doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
> >used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei, I
> >have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
> >says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the hard
> >workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you
through a
> >training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
> >you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
> >harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
> >flame me all you want.
> >
> I agree completely so I'll bask in the fires with you. I'd go so far as to
> apply this to initiative boosters also. The real point is, there had better
> be a damn good reason for the character to have the 'ware, otherwise the
> player is simply trying to min/max blindly.
>
> --Sanction

I maintain that it's not a matter of YOU being in tune with your 'ware, its a matter
of YOUR ESSENCE/AURA being in tune with your 'ware (which it isn't).

~tim
Message no. 45
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:55:34 -0500
At 11:33 AM 11/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>> >Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
>> >stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
>> >not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
>> >you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
>> >special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
>> >example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
>> >wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So
>
>If the **Troll's** down why would you expect the Physad to still be walking
around?
>
>
>> >you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
>> >doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
>> >used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei, I
>> >have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
>> >says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the hard
>> >workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you
through a
>> >training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
>> >you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
>> >harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
>> >flame me all you want.
>> >
>> I agree completely so I'll bask in the fires with you. I'd go so far as to
>> apply this to initiative boosters also. The real point is, there had better
>> be a damn good reason for the character to have the 'ware, otherwise the
>> player is simply trying to min/max blindly.
>>
>> --Sanction
>
>I maintain that it's not a matter of YOU being in tune with your 'ware, its
a matter
>of YOUR ESSENCE/AURA being in tune with your 'ware (which it isn't).
>
>~tim
>
Granted, your essence/aura is not in tune with your 'ware, which is exactly
why your essence is lower, your magic rating is lower, and you have fewer
physad powers. To regain former levels of physad power after implanting,
from the above example, muscle aug 4 (BI = 3.2), would require 4 grades of
initiation beyond grade 0. That is a lot of work and karma to get the whole
system communicating correctly again. But, you are still below where you
could have been if the 'ware had never been implanted. Again, you give up
so much to get the 'ware, it seems what few physad powers you have left
should still work, otherwise you have nothing at all.

See Teach Dere (sp?) from the Threats book (I think -- the one with all the
NPC's that I skimmed in the store because I didn't have enough money to buy
it) for a combination of 'ware and physad -- only after spending millions
and initiating way more than any player I've heard of ever has.

--Sanction
Message no. 46
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:06:57 -0500
At 10:45 AM 11/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>> Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
>> stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
>> not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
>> you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
>> special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
>> example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
>> wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So
>> you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
>> doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
>> used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei, I
>> have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
>> says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the hard
>> workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you
through a
>> training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
>> you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
>> harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
>> flame me all you want.
>
>Would you agree with a Physad using "Boost Strength" to increase the
strength
>attribute on his cyber-arm?
>
>The same thing applies with other augmentations. Check an earlier post on this
>same thread about the analogy of the body and essence and the spirit etc..
>You can only use your magic to enhance things that exist in your original
Astral
>Self/Spirit. No matter what it is either build or vat-grown, if it's not
>connected to that Essence/Spirit (what-ever) then it's not connected to the
>magic, or can't be ehanced by the magic.
>
>~Tim
>
I know FASA has addressed something like this, but I don't remember where.
The example they used was how a mage CAN cast spells through cyber-eyes.
The argument went that after having them implanted and paying essence for
the eyes, they were as natural a part of the mage as anything else, and so
magic could be cast through them. If what you said about no magical
connection to cyber is true, then why does FASA have a combat mage archetype
with cybereyes? If what you said was true, then that mage wouldn't be a
mage at all.

Um, but, to completely contradict myself, I agree that it is fairly
ludicrous to have the PA apply the strength boost to a cyberarm.

So, I guess I would go back to counting bioware as natural, cyber as not,
and leaving it at that.

--Sanction
Message no. 47
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:11:41 -0800
[SNIP THE PREVIOUS STUFF]

> >I maintain that it's not a matter of YOU being in tune with your 'ware, its
> a matter
> >of YOUR ESSENCE/AURA being in tune with your 'ware (which it isn't).
> >
> >~tim
> >
> Granted, your essence/aura is not in tune with your 'ware, which is exactly
> why your essence is lower, your magic rating is lower, and you have fewer
> physad powers. To regain former levels of physad power after implanting,
> from the above example, muscle aug 4 (BI = 3.2), would require 4 grades of
> initiation beyond grade 0. That is a lot of work and karma to get the whole
> system communicating correctly again. But, you are still below where you
> could have been if the 'ware had never been implanted. Again, you give up
> so much to get the 'ware, it seems what few physad powers you have left
> should still work, otherwise you have nothing at all.
>
> See Teach Dere (sp?) from the Threats book (I think -- the one with all the
> NPC's that I skimmed in the store because I didn't have enough money to buy
> it) for a combination of 'ware and physad -- only after spending millions
> and initiating way more than any player I've heard of ever has.
>
> --Sanction

I don't think I was clear on what I *meant* to say.
My point was not a matter of gaining or loosing magic, it was that the magic can't
alter the NON-NATURAL (as far as the AURA is concerned) constructs/implants. They
may be integrated and accepted, but they don't connect to the AURA (hence the dark
spots on the aura's of those who are chromed), they can't be influenced by the AURA
(i.e. magically altered)

I'll have to borrow the book from a friend and check out "Teach".

I think the root of this whole discussion is a philosophical/theoretical one...:)

~Tim
Message no. 48
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:23:43 -0800
[snip my comments]

> I know FASA has addressed something like this, but I don't remember where.
> The example they used was how a mage CAN cast spells through cyber-eyes.
> The argument went that after having them implanted and paying essence for
> the eyes, they were as natural a part of the mage as anything else, and so
> magic could be cast through them. If what you said about no magical
> connection to cyber is true, then why does FASA have a combat mage archetype
> with cybereyes? If what you said was true, then that mage wouldn't be a
> mage at all.
>
> Um, but, to completely contradict myself, I agree that it is fairly
> ludicrous to have the PA apply the strength boost to a cyberarm.
>
> So, I guess I would go back to counting bioware as natural, cyber as not,
> and leaving it at that.
>
> --Sanction

Oops about the Eyes, I should know better.

OK, check this out: Would you allow a Physad to magically enhance his cyber-eyes?

Another angle...sure the Aura TOLERATES the 'ware (mage can cast spells through
cyber eyes) but would a MANA based spell be able to affect them? I think you'd need
an "Affect Cybered Eyes" spell to do it, just as you need an "Affect
Cybered Att."
spell to affect cybered attributes. Tolerated by the Aura, but Not Directly a part
of it.

I think external spells can be tailored toward the NON-MANA contructs, but the
Physad's power is solely MANA-BASED.

How's that? :)
~Tim

~Tim
Message no. 49
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:32:04 -0500
[SNIP THE PREVIOUS STUFF]
>
>I don't think I was clear on what I *meant* to say.
>My point was not a matter of gaining or loosing magic, it was that the
magic can't
>alter the NON-NATURAL (as far as the AURA is concerned)
constructs/implants. They
>may be integrated and accepted, but they don't connect to the AURA (hence
the dark
>spots on the aura's of those who are chromed), they can't be influenced by
the AURA
>(i.e. magically altered)
>
>I'll have to borrow the book from a friend and check out "Teach".
>
>I think the root of this whole discussion is a philosophical/theoretical
one...:)
>
>~Tim
>
Okay, I see your point. Basically this boils down to a difference of
opinion. I have been partially converted however, I agree that cyberware
should be seperate, but, I guess I feel that bioware is natural enough
(since it is organic and grown, not chrome) that it becomes part of the body
and can be affected by the PA powers.

Question: if, and we both agree here, the PA powers don't work on something
like a cyberarm in terms of enhanced strength, what about PA initiative
increases? Certainly you wouldn't suggest different values for natural vs.
cyber parts (to quote Cybertech loosely, "the mind boggles at the
possibility.")

I think perhaps we are descending to far into the detail. KISS -- for me:
bioware works, cyberware doesn't; for you: neither work with physad powers.
If we ever play in the same group...GM wins (you never know, you seem to go
to CSU Pomona, and I'm from LA).

On the "Teach" point, I only remeber that he has extensive implantation and
PA powers (some obscenely high initiation grade), I'm not sure how, or if,
they are actually combined.

One other thing, I am completely separated from my SR books, not a single
one with me, and am working totally from memory, so it is quite possibe I
will quote things incorrectly (which I believe I've done only once so far).
Please be kind :)

--Sanction
Message no. 50
From: Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:34:04 -0500
[SNIPPED]
>
>Oops about the Eyes, I should know better.
>
>OK, check this out: Would you allow a Physad to magically enhance his
cyber-eyes?
>

NEVER!

>Another angle...sure the Aura TOLERATES the 'ware (mage can cast spells through
>cyber eyes) but would a MANA based spell be able to affect them? I think
you'd need
>an "Affect Cybered Eyes" spell to do it, just as you need an "Affect
Cybered Att."
>spell to affect cybered attributes. Tolerated by the Aura, but Not
Directly a part
>of it.
>
>I think external spells can be tailored toward the NON-MANA contructs, but the
>Physad's power is solely MANA-BASED.
>


>How's that? :)
>~Tim
I like that, but, I've already given in completely in terms of cyberware.

--Sanction
Message no. 51
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:10:51 -0500
> > >Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
> > >stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may
> > >not be smart, but nothing stops you from doing it. Given sufficient time,
> > >you would even become better from it. Ok, say you are a PhA in some
> > >special forces and they require you to get muscle aug 4 (an extreme
> > >example) so you can carry those troll buddies of yours when they get
> > >wounded (like a troll ever gets wounded, must have been a bad day). So
>
> If the **Troll's** down why would you expect the Physad to still be walking around?
>
>
> > >you get the muscle aug. Now you feel totally out of balance, your body
> > >doesn't move as it is supposed to, you don't feel the control that you
> > >used to have. SO you go back to your old sensei and tell him "Sensei,
I
> > >have done a bad thing and have altered the balance of my body." Sensei
> > >says, "That is bad, little grasshopper. Now we will have to do the
hard
> > >workouts." "Not those", you scream. SO your sensei puts you
through a
> > >training requime that would make a mascicist think twise, but at the end,
> > >you feel back in tune with your body, and you can move faster and hit
> > >harder than you could before. Now if that didn't make any sence, you can
> > >flame me all you want.
> > >
> > I agree completely so I'll bask in the fires with you. I'd go so far as to
> > apply this to initiative boosters also. The real point is, there had better
> > be a damn good reason for the character to have the 'ware, otherwise the
> > player is simply trying to min/max blindly.
> >
> > --Sanction
>
> I maintain that it's not a matter of YOU being in tune with your 'ware, its a matter
> of YOUR ESSENCE/AURA being in tune with your 'ware (which it isn't).

That is true, but isn't that the reason for initiation. YOu damage your
body, either through wounds or implants, and it no longer works the same.
YOu don't have all of the powers that you used to have. But through hard
work, ordeals, and lots of karma, you train your body and reitergrate your
aura with your body. At least thats how I read it. Any other
interpretions?
Message no. 52
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:13:24 -0500
> [snip my comments]
>
> > I know FASA has addressed something like this, but I don't remember where.
> > The example they used was how a mage CAN cast spells through cyber-eyes.
> > The argument went that after having them implanted and paying essence for
> > the eyes, they were as natural a part of the mage as anything else, and so
> > magic could be cast through them. If what you said about no magical
> > connection to cyber is true, then why does FASA have a combat mage archetype
> > with cybereyes? If what you said was true, then that mage wouldn't be a
> > mage at all.
> >
> > Um, but, to completely contradict myself, I agree that it is fairly
> > ludicrous to have the PA apply the strength boost to a cyberarm.
> >
> > So, I guess I would go back to counting bioware as natural, cyber as not,
> > and leaving it at that.
> >
> > --Sanction
>
> Oops about the Eyes, I should know better.
>
> OK, check this out: Would you allow a Physad to magically enhance his cyber-eyes?
>
> Another angle...sure the Aura TOLERATES the 'ware (mage can cast spells through
> cyber eyes) but would a MANA based spell be able to affect them? I think you'd need
> an "Affect Cybered Eyes" spell to do it, just as you need an "Affect
Cybered Att."
> spell to affect cybered attributes. Tolerated by the Aura, but Not Directly a part
> of it.
>
> I think external spells can be tailored toward the NON-MANA contructs, but the
> Physad's power is solely MANA-BASED.
>
hmm... great argument, I am going to have to think on that one.
Message no. 53
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:19:07 -0500
>
> On the "Teach" point, I only remeber that he has extensive implantation and
> PA powers (some obscenely high initiation grade), I'm not sure how, or if,
> they are actually combined.

14th grade and he still sucks. Essence of I believe less than .5, can be
sure. I sure could have had more fun with 20 points of magic, but that is
just my opinion

>
> One other thing, I am completely separated from my SR books, not a single
> one with me, and am working totally from memory, so it is quite possibe I
> will quote things incorrectly (which I believe I've done only once so far).
> Please be kind :)
>
> --Sanction
>
Message no. 54
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:31:29 -0500
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Pete wrote:
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.961118191606.221E-100000@*******.wam.umd.edu>,

[Me suggesting that since Init is not an attribute, it can't be treated as
a 'natural attribute' by bioware/PA-ability/cyberware]

> Ahh... Although Initiative is *not* an attribute it is the average of
> two attributes, so in interpretation it can be taken as a natural
> attribute, as it is a result of said items.. :) However, I don't tend
> to do things that way, but then, I don't like PhysAds anyway and neither
> do my players.... :)

I see the word I like so much! - 'interpretation'.


I'm not trying to define how any plays guys, but I'm certainly trying to
find out which are people's House Rules, and which are SRII rules.

I seem to think that the difference is enlightening, and that if I'm
going to GM for someone or play with a new GM, then I need to have a clear
communication about which rules are 'in', which are 'out', which are House
Rules, and which come from SRII..



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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Message no. 55
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:02:16 -0500
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Georg Greve wrote:
> Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
> : Ah yes, just because bioware can affect something, doesn't make that
> : 'something' an attribute. If it is though, then a PA ability should be
> : able to stack on top of it. Personally, I'd apply the PA attribute
> : increase first. (It's more natural for that character.)
>
> Whatever is affected by bioware is considered "natural" - that is the
> main consense the rulebooks have. The ONLY exception to that is the
> bioware body increases are not counted for the maximum amount of
> bioware you may get.

You're mis-paraphrasing p6 of Shadowtech. It states that bioware
increases to Attributes are treated as natural in all cases except to
figure out the maximum Body Index.

Not "anything affected by bioware is natural".


The distinction is important.

As far as a consensus... 'it' is only mentioned in Shadowtech. Unless
it's also mentioned in Cybertechnology... And if so, perhaps you can let
me know where?




Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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Message no. 56
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:01:12 -0500
In a message dated 96-11-19 14:34:42 EST, you write:

>I maintain that it's not a matter of YOU being in tune with your 'ware, its
a
>matter
>of YOUR ESSENCE/AURA being in tune with your 'ware (which it isn't).

So the question remains (for all us munchies:)): _How_ does one get your Aura
back in synch with your physical body? Blood Magic? Time
(_very_long_periods_of_time_-say three or four hundred years)? If you could
do this, would you regain Magic/Essence?
Any ideas? I'm really kinda serious here...

John Pederson "God is dead"
canthros@***.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to 1900)
lobo1@****.com "Nietzsche is dead"
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm -God (everlasting to everlasting)

"Only dead fish swim with the stream."
Message no. 57
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:28:19 -0500
Another idea to throw into the mess. How about allowing mages and phy
adept to bond bioware to their aura using their life force (otherwise
known as karma). It could balance things out somewhat, but would also
keep people from munchkinizing that quickly. We use a ratio of 10 karma
to 1 body index point. I don't know about you, but 10 karma is alot in
the games we play. THis bonding allows the magicially active to use
bioware without magic loss, if it is bonded.

On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, John Pederson wrote:

> In a message dated 96-11-19 14:34:42 EST, you write:
>
> >I maintain that it's not a matter of YOU being in tune with your 'ware, its
> a
> >matter
> >of YOUR ESSENCE/AURA being in tune with your 'ware (which it isn't).
>
> So the question remains (for all us munchies:)): _How_ does one get your Aura
> back in synch with your physical body? Blood Magic? Time
> (_very_long_periods_of_time_-say three or four hundred years)? If you could
> do this, would you regain Magic/Essence?
> Any ideas? I'm really kinda serious here...
>
> John Pederson "God is dead"
> canthros@***.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to 1900)
> lobo1@****.com "Nietzsche is dead"
> http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm -God (everlasting to everlasting)
>
> "Only dead fish swim with the stream."
>
Message no. 58
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:49:53 GMT
Sanction writes

> See Teach Dere (sp?) from the Threats book (I think --
Teacrhdire? oh i can't spell it, hes out of 'prime runners' and one
very nasty piece of work based on grade lots physad and delta ware
and wired three. Actually the characters design is truely lousy but
hes so super hard it doesn't really matter.

> the one with all the
> NPC's that I skimmed in the store because I didn't have enough money to buy
> it)
Called 'prime runners' the consensus is its a waste of money, go get
hold of 'NEPRS Edge Runners' instead, being NEPRS its free! [of
course the contents are different but it was a general solution to
Prime runners]

> for a combination of 'ware and physad -- only after spending
> millions
> and initiating way more than any player I've heard of ever has.
>
I cannot remember his grade, it was pretty good, but then i've heard
of grade 16!, [not in a game i was involved in] and several
characters have made grade 5 or so, i think the game i'm playing in
at the moment has 'phs-ad 7, mage 5, Shaman 5' needless to say don't
annoy the sammies or the rigger either.

Mark

> --Sanction
>
Message no. 59
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:19:18 -0500
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> Another idea to throw into the mess. How about allowing mages and phy
> adept to bond bioware to their aura using their life force (otherwise
> known as karma). It could balance things out somewhat, but would also
> keep people from munchkinizing that quickly. We use a ratio of 10 karma
> to 1 body index point. I don't know about you, but 10 karma is alot in
> the games we play. THis bonding allows the magicially active to use
> bioware without magic loss, if it is bonded.

Hm. To 'bond' 6 BI worth of bioware would then cost 60 karma.

With a group, with Ordeals:

Grade Karma
0 9
1 11
2 12
3 14
4 15
5 17
6 18
====
96 karma


So you're saying that you'd give them 6 Special Magic Points for 60
karma...

Such SMP would be used up by bioware implants but would not add to an
Initiate's Grade Bonus.


Hm. Not for my players...





Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 60
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:38:23 -0800
At 18:19 11/20/96 -0500, Brian W Allison wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
>> Another idea to throw into the mess. How about allowing mages and phy
>> adept to bond bioware to their aura using their life force (otherwise
>> known as karma).
>> We use a ratio of 10 karma
>> to 1 body index point.

>Hm. To 'bond' 6 BI worth of bioware would then cost 60 karma.

>With a group, with Ordeals:

> Grade Karma
> 0 9
...
> 6 18
> ====
> 96 karma

> So you're saying that you'd give them 6 Special Magic Points for 60
>karma...

> Such SMP would be used up by bioware implants but would not add to an
>Initiate's Grade Bonus.

> Hm. Not for my players...

Well, the Magic Point isn't necessarily as useful as the Initiate grade.
However, consider paying karma equal to the triangle number of the number
of body points: 5n(n+1) where n is the number of points. So the first
point costs 10 karma, getting two points costs you 30 karma, and getting
all the way up to 6 BI would require 210 karma... this would encourage
mages to have a bare minimum of the stuff...
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 61
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:10:55 +0000
Daniel wrote:

> > By you're reasoning, I can stack even cyberware on top of a PA's
> > magicly increased attribute. That just doesn't make any sense.
> Not to disagree or anything, but why doesn't it make sence to be able to
> stack cyberware on top of a PA's magicaly increased attribute. It may

Because you can't improve a machine in the same manner that you can
improve the human body. Never mind that magic and tech don't mix
(reason for inc attribute vs. inc cybered attribute.)


--Droopy


droopy@**.net
Message no. 62
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: PA and cibereflexes
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:10:55 +0000
Daniel wrote:

> > Would you agree with a Physad using "Boost Strength" to increase the
strength
> > attribute on his cyber-arm?
>
> Bad example...in boost strength, it says that it can't be used with
> basically anything else, including spells. (Never really understood why
> one would use boosted strength anyway, with the rules set up like they
> are)

Sounds like a precident to me, since Inc. Strength has a direct
cyber/bio-ware equivilent.

> I disagree, but slightly off the topic then: How about stacking spells
> and phs adept powers?

The trade offs to this more than compensate for any advantage, but I
don't allow it either. In the case of a spell, the higher number
applies.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net

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