Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	"G.F.BURKE" <61940038%TAONODE@*****.CSUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Paranormals.
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:47:00 ET

Message no. 1 Heh, anyone have any good ideas on how to transfer European critters into
NA? I know that the PAoE source book lists a few suggestions, but I am
looking for something...I don't know, outlandish (please no ideas concerning
aliens...they don't exist in my world, yet). Oh well, just a inquiry.
-Oni
"I summoned the Wyld Hunt...oops!"

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals.
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:55:53 -0700

Message no. 2 G.F.BURKE wrote:
|
| Heh, anyone have any good ideas on how to transfer European critters into
|NA? I know that the PAoE source book lists a few suggestions, but I am
|looking for something...I don't know, outlandish (please no ideas concerning
|aliens...they don't exist in my world, yet). Oh well, just a inquiry.

How about... a smuggling operation takes a batch load of animals to North
America to a distribution point, from which they will be sent on to their
buyers. When the ship (tanker sized, a *lot* of animals) comes into port
(during the night of course) there's an accident and almost all of the
animals get lose.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals.
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:15:54 -0500

Message no. 3 Forshadowing: Have the players hear rumors that a particular facility (not one
they are interested in) has some particularly nasty paranormals. possible
exchange: "Yeah, the place you are going has hell hounds, but thats not so bad.
Up in the barrens there is this lab the Big A runs that has xxxxxs!" (fill in blanks
appropriately). Players think no more about it till a few runs later when they hear
rumors that there was a big run against that same facility, and it pretty much went
up in smoke, all the fences knocked down etc. A few nights after that, people in
the area start disapearing at night.... PCs now get involved cleaning up the mess
some other shadowrunners made.

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals.
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:48:53 -0800

Message no. 4 I'm sorta partial to the concept of the PC's hired to "retrieve" some cargo
being shipped
across country on a road train (actually substitute any other type of
transport)...except they don't know that it's alive and of course, dangerous.

Its up the the GM how, but during the course of trying to hijack the transport
the cargo gets loose, and well, thats when the real fun ensues. Even better let
the PC's find the crates with the matching ID numbers, but the only problem is
that what ever was inside appears to have busted out.

~tim

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals.
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:07:53 -0700

Message no. 5 The Paranormal Russian Circus could come to town by rail
and the train could derail (after the tracks are blown by
some terrorists) freeing who knows what.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 08:05:27 +0100

Message no. 6 There is a certain problem with paranormal animals in shadowrun...
And the list is my last hope...

Whenever I want to hassle my players with tough metabears,
colour-adaptive bandersnaches or even gigantic juggernauts, the
result is the same...
'Bandersnach? Hey, I got ultrasound...'
Sammie spots the bandersnach, sammie geeks the bandersnach...
Piasma? What is his reaction? 5? 6? No match for a samurai who knows
his job... he would beat the bear to death with his bare fists...
Juggernaut?? The biggest joke, if you ask me...
No player has to be afraid of these... just give them a uzi with
APDS, poor juggernaut has to face a target number of 8 to defend
himself, while the one firing won't have a chance of missing the
beast...
Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?

ss

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 11:28:18 +0100

Message no. 7 Simon T. Sailer said on 8:05/ 5 May 97...

> Whenever I want to hassle my players with tough metabears,
> colour-adaptive bandersnaches or even gigantic juggernauts, the
> result is the same...
[snip]
> Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
> Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?

Critters aren't fun in SR unless you make it difficult for the players.
You can't play an AD&D-style "kill the monsters" adventure, because
automatic weapons make it very hard for the monsters to survive.

A few things I can think of: get most of the PCs gear away from them
before letting them go up against a critter. For example, kidnap them,
move them to a little house on the prairie (sp?), and let them escape. No
body armor, no guns except the double-barrel shotgun (with two rounds)
they snatched from the guard, and maybe a few kitchen knives if they're
smart enough to take those along. _Then_ let them run into a juggernaut :)

This sort of thing happens in Harlequin's Back at one point: the PCs are
armed with swords and bows at one point, and they are asked to go out
hunting for the village. My players decided to use lion-tactics: three of
them formed a line, a few meters apart, and the fourth went further into
the woods to scare animals their way. (I rolled a D100 to generate a page
number in PAoNA, and used the animal that came up.) Unfortunately,
shooting the critters with the bows failed to kill them quickly enough,
and hacking at them with swords had equally little effect. In the end the
street sam grabbed the century ferret that came running past him, and
choked it to death!

Or: Paranormal Animals of Europe, pages 110 and 111 *GM grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's the story of how we run our lives.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 08:04:43 -0600

Message no. 8 Simon T. Sailer wrote:
|
| There is a certain problem with paranormal animals in shadowrun...
| And the list is my last hope...

[snip: PCs waste the critters]

| Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
| Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?

Take a look at your typical animals and see how they work.

Predators come in three basic types. The team, the pouncer, and the
ambusher.

Wolves are one of the best teams. The pack works together to kill
their prey. Take a team critter and do the same. A team of 8-12
Hell Hounds should put the fear of god in the PCs.

Pouncers, like Tigers, sneak up on their prey and hit them before
they have a chance to react. And, they usually go for the weakest,
or slowest target. So, take your lone critter with high stealth and
have it sneak up on the players.

Ambushers just wait for their prey to walk by (again, stealth and
suprise).

Now, find one of the above that has a ranged attack.

And, the intelligent ones with magic (Shade) are pure hell if run..
well, intelligently.

And critters in general are not stupid. They can be pretty crafty.
Just because they can't speak (well, most of them) doesn't mean you
can't roleplay them.

Almost all herbivores are herd animals. Check out that friends in
melee modifier :) (Stampede!) And a way to get those solitary
herbivores together is to have the PCs stumble on them during
breading season, or if two or more adults are caring for young.

And everyone thinks that corporations that use critters for security
just toss them into an area without any backup. Try this, put some
critters *and* some sentry guns on the other side of the fence (the
sentry guns are programed not to fire on the critters of course).

And last, but not least, immunity to natural weapons.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 19:02:37 +0100

Message no. 9 > Wolves are one of the best teams. The pack works together to kill
> their prey. Take a team critter and do the same. A team of 8-12
> Hell Hounds should put the fear of god in the PCs.
>
Good point to make them more powerful. But a fight against too many
opponents is IMHO hard to play. Involves too much dice-rolling
without direct effect.(at places fequented by critters, the
characters usually wear impact armor around level 7...)

> Pouncers, like Tigers, sneak up on their prey and hit them before
> they have a chance to react. And, they usually go for the weakest,
> or slowest target. So, take your lone critter with high stealth and
> have it sneak up on the players.
>
The stealth rating had to be EXTREMELY high- there is always somebody
who succeeds in the perception test, and as soon as they spot the
animal, they geek it.

> Now, find one of the above that has a ranged attack.
>
> And, the intelligent ones with magic (Shade) are pure hell if run..
> well, intelligently.
> Almost all herbivores are herd animals. Check out that friends in
> melee modifier :) (Stampede!) And a way to get those solitary
> herbivores together is to have the PCs stumble on them during
> breading season, or if two or more adults are caring for young.
>
That would be an appropriate way to die for a million-nuyen
samurai... being stomped to death by sheep... :)

> And last, but not least, immunity to natural weapons.
>
Yep, thats always a fair game.

> -David

Thanks for your help
ss

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 13:25:00 -0400

Message no. 10 > There is a certain problem with paranormal animals in shadowrun...
> And the list is my last hope...

Then have hope my friend, for you have access to some of the most powerful,
creative SR minded folks outside of the FASA enclave in Chi-town. :-)

OK, the easy solution to "fixing" critters IS to simply up their stats, but
you've already said you don't like that idea.
Are you using the threat rating for these critters?
I usually give my critters a threat pool equal to their reaction rating or
their highest attribute.
I also tend to ignore target number modifiers to their tests. :-)

I also use a good healty dose of the cybermod's on corp critters, and the
toxic/mutation rules from the California Free State Sourcebook for wild
critters.

It goes something like this ...

> 'Bandersnach? Hey, I got ultrasound...'

That's nice. He's got dermal plating, Move-by-Wire 4, and a smartlinked
Assault Cannon.

> Sammie spots the bandersnach,

Bandersnatch goes twice before sammy moves.
Sammy eats a few explosive rounds

> sammie geeks the bandersnach...

after a looong struggle caused by all the nasty wound modifiers the sammy
has from the damage he took during the 'snatche's first two actions! :-)

> Piasma? What is his reaction? 5? 6? No match for a samurai who knows
> his job... he would beat the bear to death with his bare fists...

Yep, too bad the Piasma had a held action and bit off the defenseless
sammie's head before announcing his presence. Darn shame the Piasma was so
smacked out on the Lone Star combat drug Jazz that he kept fighting even
after he took 10 boxes of overdamage ...
USE THE SURPRISE RULES!!!!

> Juggernaut?? The biggest joke, if you ask me...

Oh no way. After the loony was completely swalloed by Angiras the rest fo
the team was hard pressed just to harvest one of these things testicles!

> No player has to be afraid of these... just give them a uzi with
> APDS, poor juggernaut has to face a target number of 8 to defend
> himself, while the one firing won't have a chance of missing the
> beast...

Don't let the team KILL the critter.
Maybe a zoo wants it alive, or a mage needs a teste (been there, did it!)
for a ritual.
Don't forget that critter hardened armor doesn't have to work just like
vehicle hardened armor!
Is that uzi their using brand new? Have they worked the bugs out of it?
Is it old? Seems to have something jammed in there. It'll take a least a
few actions to clear the chamber ... :-)

> Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
> Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?

The tactics post someone else sent was very good.
IMO if you have ever worked with animals, you know that every one is VERY
different from every other one you come across.
One might be playful and friendly, whiel another might be vicious and
resist the worst damage to reach it's target.
With cyberware, magic, toxins and spirits there are sooooo many ways to
alter the basic critter profile that you can always find a new way to use a
critter.
Check out the post in CFS about the Shasta Deer.
Stupid no power deer!
But nobody frags with them because they are magically active in herds, and
they are under the protection of a dragon!
Bear environment in mind, animals do, even house cats use furniture to
sneak up on their owners.
Wild beasts would do the same.

Jazz up your game.
Get away from plain vanilla crittters.
And above all NEVER let the players know what they're fighting!
Don't let them plan to use the critters weaknesses against it!

Good luck!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"We could find a speck of dust and scribble down our life stories ..."

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 18:57:11 +0000

Message no. 11 On 5 May 97 at 8:05, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
> There is a certain problem with paranormal animals in shadowrun...
> And the list is my last hope...
Wise thee were when... ooops, sorry, wrong forum... :-)

> Whenever I want to hassle my players with tough metabears,
> colour-adaptive bandersnaches or even gigantic juggernauts, the
> result is the same...
> 'Bandersnach? Hey, I got ultrasound...'
> Sammie spots the bandersnach, sammie geeks the bandersnach...
> Piasma? What is his reaction? 5? 6? No match for a samurai who knows
> his job... he would beat the bear to death with his bare fists...
> Juggernaut?? The biggest joke, if you ask me...
> No player has to be afraid of these... just give them a uzi with
> APDS, poor juggernaut has to face a target number of 8 to defend
> himself, while the one firing won't have a chance of missing the
> beast...
> Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
> Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?
Hm. First idea: Read them rules. SRII, p.282 (Juggernaut: 8 points of
_hardened_ armor! Uzi has an unmodified power of 6 (see SRII, p. 98,
and SRII, p. 108 for the rules). "I shoot the Juggernaut with my Uzi...
BLAM, BLAM, BLAM!" GM - "Not much effect." - "But I used APDS!"
GM -
"Yeah. Vehicle, ie. Hardened Armor, reduces the Power of APDS ammo by
one-half its rating and reduces the Damage Level by one Level. See
SRII, p. 277." "This still leaves a power level of ... uh... err...
2... for burst, 5!" "5M, yeah. With 15 Body, this gives an average of
five successes. Are you beginning to understand why it showed no
effect? *EGMG*"

Bandersnatch has _3D6_ for initiative, and Adaptive Coloration, I
think it hunts by stealth rather then oppen assault. See SRII, p. 80
for Delayed Actions, and SRII, p. 86 Surprise.

Hope this helps.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 13:43:41 -0600

Message no. 12 Simon T. Sailer wrote:
|
| > Wolves are one of the best teams. The pack works together to kill
| > their prey. Take a team critter and do the same. A team of 8-12
| > Hell Hounds should put the fear of god in the PCs.
| >
| Good point to make them more powerful. But a fight against too many
| opponents is IMHO hard to play. Involves too much dice-rolling
| without direct effect.(at places fequented by critters, the
| characters usually wear impact armor around level 7...)

But, it's so much fun. First they hear howls in the night echoing
through the forest. Then they hear the occasional yelp/bark, the
sound of padded feet running, the breathing of large animals. They
see movement off to the left as two hell hounds weave in and out of
the trees keeping their distance (partial cover, perception
modifiers, target moving, range). As everyone is looking to the left
6 hounds charge them from the right (stealth vs perception with night
modifiers and partial cover modifiers). On the second action a hound
attacks from ahead and another from behind. The two on the left?
They're holding their actions waiting to help, take down a runaway,
or provide a distraction if the pack has to retreat.

And as for keeping track, draw it out on a piece of paper.

Hm.. armor. Who says the beast never comes out of the wilderness?
Same scenario as above except the villain is a mage that's cast
control thoughts on the hell hounds (or raised them from puppies) and
sets them on the PCs as they cut through the city park.

Or, send the PCs through a Storm Crow nesting sight. No ammount of
armor is going to stop a lightning bolt. If I did this I'd send the
angry flock flying around the characters (ever seen Hitchcock's "The
Birds"?). Then a thundercloud appears out of knowwhere. Bolts of
lightning start to leap down around the PCs. At this point if the
players have it in their minds that they can win, I'd let them have
it. And if they kill a few crows, so what. You've got hundreds of
them. It ain't going to slow down that lightning one bit.

| > Pouncers, like Tigers, sneak up on their prey and hit them before
| > they have a chance to react. And, they usually go for the weakest,
| > or slowest target. So, take your lone critter with high stealth and
| > have it sneak up on the players.
| >
| The stealth rating had to be EXTREMELY high- there is always somebody
| who succeeds in the perception test, and as soon as they spot the
| animal, they geek it.

The tiger has stealth, it's got camo, and almost full cover. Take a
bandersnatch with stealth, coloration, cover from the trees,
perception modifiers cuz it's night and your PCs will never know what
hit them. Apply those same modifiers to the PC's reaction tests too
and the bandersnatch will get at least one full round to maul
someone. Read the suprise rules and the perception rules.

I just remembered something fun I did once. I put a Nomad on a
Bandersnatch <EGMLOL>.

| Thanks for your help

Anything to help. Mostly just passing on what I've learned and
applied on this list in the last couple years.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 13:50:52 -0600

Message no. 13 Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
| Hm. First idea: Read them rules. SRII, p.282 (Juggernaut: 8 points of
| _hardened_ armor! Uzi has an unmodified power of 6 (see SRII, p. 98,
| and SRII, p. 108 for the rules). "I shoot the Juggernaut with my Uzi...
| BLAM, BLAM, BLAM!" GM - "Not much effect." - "But I used APDS!"
GM -
| "Yeah. Vehicle, ie. Hardened Armor, reduces the Power of APDS ammo by
| one-half its rating and reduces the Damage Level by one Level. See
| SRII, p. 277." "This still leaves a power level of ... uh... err...
| 2... for burst, 5!" "5M, yeah. With 15 Body, this gives an average of
| five successes. Are you beginning to understand why it showed no
| effect? *EGMG*"

I coulda sworn that if the power of the weapon was lower than the
rating of hardened armor than it didn't penetrate. At all. And
since this is before burst rules are applied than the Juggernaut
doesn't even have to role dice. Could be wrong though. <Eyore>
Been wrong before. </Eyore>

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 23:01:33 +0000

Message no. 14 On 5 May 97 at 13:50, David Buehrer wrote:
[snip]
> I coulda sworn that if the power of the weapon was lower than the
> rating of hardened armor than it didn't penetrate. At all. And
> since this is before burst rules are applied than the Juggernaut
> doesn't even have to role dice. Could be wrong though. <Eyore>
> Been wrong before. </Eyore>
So did I, but when I checked APDS rules, I got confused... To be
honest, I will need to check it once I am less tired then I am now to
get it, I think...

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 16:17:27 -0700

Message no. 15 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
> Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?
>
> ss

When it comes to spirits, elementals and awakened critters, I use open
ended sixes on initiative dice. I've found it adds a certain spice of
unpredictability to encounters with them. ;o)

Also, remember no two critters of the same type will be alike. Use the
element of suprise. My group will still remember the time they
encountered griffins with electrical projections. EGMLOL.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 16:43:19 -0700

Message no. 16 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> Good point to make them more powerful. But a fight against too many
> opponents is IMHO hard to play. Involves too much dice-rolling
> without direct effect.(at places fequented by critters, the
> characters usually wear impact armor around level 7...)

How are they walking around with an Impact armor of 7? Maybe with
layering armor, orthoskin and bone lacing. Still, this shouldn't be
the norm. If this has become the norm in your game and is affecting
game balance, then rule out options like layering armor or pieces of
cyber/bioware to bring it back into balance.

If you find having to handle 8-12 critters to balance out a fight is
a bit much, then use an optional rule that I've found works with
swarms of smaller cirtters...

A rat on it's own has a damage of 2L, nothing impressive. However,
what I've been doing is having the rats attack in numbers. Roll 2d6 to
see how many random rats are involved in the attack on that action.
Roll it as a single attack test (friends in melee applies), then add
the number of rats that attacked to the power of the damage category
(kinda like a burst or full auto fire). I haven't been staging up
damage for every three, but hey if you want to have even more fun...)
Devil Rats are a fave when springing this one cuz they control packs
of mundane rats.

Ok, as an example. The group stumbles into a pack of about 20 crazed
rats in the sewers. The rats jump the group and the runners fight
back. On my action for the rats I roll 2d6 and come up with a 7. The 7
rats gnaw on Mask. My rats are getting -4 to their T# because of
friends in melee, Mask gets a +4 to his T# for the same. The rats get
4 successes (I gave them a Threat Rating of 2 for being starved and in
large number), Mask gets 1 success of his own. Mask is now resisting
9M damage from rats. Don't forget, there's a possible body test for
knockdown against the power level of a melee attack. Also, you can
always do a roll for disease and infection from the bites and
scrathes. EGMLOL

This trick works well with swarms of bats, a snake's nest, and other
small animals (mundane or awakened) that can be found in number.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 22:02:33 -0700

Message no. 17 > From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
> The stealth rating had to be EXTREMELY high- there is always somebody
> who succeeds in the perception test, and as soon as they spot the
> animal, they geek it.

So..2 big rules..1] never..NEVER..reveal target numbers 2] furge the
target numbers..Unless the guy rolls half a dozed 6s half a dozen
times..then they earned it..but I would be watching the rolls and
checking those dice...

> That would be an appropriate way to die for a million-nuyen
> samurai... being stomped to death by sheep... :)

LOL..And they were all calling his name..Bah ah ah ah b......[well
that is as close to sheep bleeting I can come on this thing]..
--------------------------------GRANITE "Rock Steady"
=====================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 12:15:52 +0100

Message no. 18 David Buehrer said on 13:50/ 5 May 97...

[snip Sascha's post]
> I coulda sworn that if the power of the weapon was lower than the
> rating of hardened armor than it didn't penetrate. At all. And
> since this is before burst rules are applied than the Juggernaut
> doesn't even have to role dice. Could be wrong though. <Eyore>
> Been wrong before. </Eyore>

You're right, David, in that firing an Uzi III at a juggernaut would
result in a lot of lead squashed flat against the beast's armor. However,
Sascha's example used APDS rounds, which halve the effective armor rating
-- from 8 to 4. The Uzi _can_ penetrate the juggernaut's skin that way,
doing 9S damage from a burst, reduced to 5M by the armor. With 19 dice to
resist (Body + 1/2 Armor), you might get the follwoing result, for which
I'll grab some dice and roll them now:

Character: 5 skill dice, 5 pool dice, TN 3 (Short range, laser sight): 7
successes.

Juggernaut: 15 Body dice, 4 Armor dice, 4 Threat Rating dice, TN 5: 10
successes.

The net result is a Light wound to the juggernaut, and with just one more
success it would have taken no damage at all.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 20:18:07 +0100

Message no. 19 > Then have hope my friend, for you have access to some of the most powerful,
> creative SR minded folks outside of the FASA enclave in Chi-town. :-)

Yes, this is entirely true.

> I also tend to ignore target number modifiers to their tests. :-)

But...but...that would be cheating, wouldn't it? ;)

> That's nice. He's got dermal plating, Move-by-Wire 4, and a smartlinked
> Assault Cannon.

Well, I try to keep my runs *REMOTELY* realistic. Who would spend
millions of nuyen on a fraggin animal? He could get about 200
tough street samurai for the same price. Sorry, but that sort of
cyberods are way to much.
same with combat drugs... What reason could anybody have to
feed Jazz to Piasmas?

> The tactics post someone else sent was very good.

yes, those tactic tips were what I expected. They are indeed useful.

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 20:29:57 +0100

Message no. 20 > How are they walking around with an Impact armor of 7? Maybe with
> layering armor, orthoskin and bone lacing. Still, this shouldn't be
> the norm. If this has become the norm in your game and is affecting
> game balance, then rule out options like layering armor or pieces of
> cyber/bioware to bring it back into balance.

Of course, they have to use the real heavy stuff to reach that
level of protection. But in areas roamed by paranormal critters,
nobody will complain about 'socially inacceptable armor clothing'.
As soon as circumstances allow, my players take the heaviest stuff
possible, and I think they are right.

> If you find having to handle 8-12 critters to balance out a fight is
> a bit much, then use an optional rule that I've found works with
> swarms of smaller cirtters...

This is a very good idea, and one that my players will surely have to
deal with in the near future.

What do you think about this idea?
The rulebook sais: 'treat critter armor as vehicle armor'
But vehicles also use their body rating to lower the defense target
number and use the armor as a barrier rating on top of that...
If critters could do the same, that juggernaut would suddenly becoume
a nearly indefeatable beast that could easily feed on small tanks...
(and thats exactly what the juggernaut should be)

ss

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 12:31:02 -0700

Message no. 21 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> What do you think about this idea?
> The rulebook sais: 'treat critter armor as vehicle armor'
> But vehicles also use their body rating to lower the defense target
> number and use the armor as a barrier rating on top of that...
> If critters could do the same, that juggernaut would suddenly becoume
> a nearly indefeatable beast that could easily feed on small tanks...
> (and thats exactly what the juggernaut should be)

That's how I've been playing hardened armor.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:50:29 -0600

Message no. 22 Simon T. Sailer wrote:
|
| What do you think about this idea?
| The rulebook sais: 'treat critter armor as vehicle armor'
| But vehicles also use their body rating to lower the defense target
| number and use the armor as a barrier rating on top of that...
| If critters could do the same, that juggernaut would suddenly becoume
| a nearly indefeatable beast that could easily feed on small tanks...
| (and thats exactly what the juggernaut should be)

<Yosemite Sam> I like it, I like it. </Yosemite Sam>

How about this one. It says in SRII that the vehicle armor values from SRI
and RBB should be tripled. Do the same for critter hardened armor from
SRI and PAoNA. Now try to take down a juggernaut.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:06:33 -0700

Message no. 23 ---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> How about this one. It says in SRII that the vehicle armor values
from SRI
> and RBB should be tripled. Do the same for critter hardened armor
from
> SRI and PAoNA. Now try to take down a juggernaut.
>
> -David

I believe SRII already lists all changes that should be made to
critters.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 14:44:18 -0600

Message no. 24 Loki wrote:
|
| ---David Buehrer wrote:
| >
| > How about this one. It says in SRII that the vehicle armor values
| from SRI
| > and RBB should be tripled. Do the same for critter hardened armor
| from
| > SRI and PAoNA. Now try to take down a juggernaut.
|
| I believe SRII already lists all changes that should be made to
| critters.

Well, maybe it was an editorial oversight ;) I'm not saying it needs
to be done, but it does fall in with the logic behind tripling
vehicle armor values. Just an idea I felt like tossing out for
anyone to use at their leisure.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 09:05:19 +0100

Message no. 25 > That's how I've been playing hardened armor.
>
> ===
>
> @>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Hmm... I don't think thats the right way in any case. You use this
rule on military grade armor (which is hardened armor), too?
Or just on vehicles and structures?

ss

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:31 +0100

Message no. 26 David Buehrer said on 13:50/ 6 May 97...

> How about this one. It says in SRII that the vehicle armor values from SRI
> and RBB should be tripled. Do the same for critter hardened armor from
> SRI and PAoNA. Now try to take down a juggernaut.

Good idea, except that SRI, and therefore PAoNA, didn't _have_ hardened
armor -- it was introduced in SRII, and the sourcebook updates section
gives hardened armor ratings for all the PAoNA critters that should have
it. Tripling it isn't necessary.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:31 +0100

Message no. 27 Simon T. Sailer said on 20:18/ 6 May 97...

> same with combat drugs... What reason could anybody have to
> feed Jazz to Piasmas?

It's cheaper and less dangerous than cybering them? Animals suffer from
what, for want of a better term, I'll call cyberpsychosis (see page 220 of
SRII) so feeding guard animals a few combat drugs would be safer to the
corp that uses them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 07:24:22 -0600

Message no. 28 Gurth wrote:
|
| David Buehrer said on 13:50/ 6 May 97...
|
| > How about this one. It says in SRII that the vehicle armor values from SRI
| > and RBB should be tripled. Do the same for critter hardened armor from
| > SRI and PAoNA. Now try to take down a juggernaut.
|
| Good idea, except that SRI, and therefore PAoNA, didn't _have_ hardened
| armor -- it was introduced in SRII, and the sourcebook updates section
| gives hardened armor ratings for all the PAoNA critters that should have
| it. Tripling it isn't necessary.

I try to give the players on this list who have GMs on this list a heart
attack and you gotta go an let the air out of it :( ;)

Yeah, I forgot that hardened armor is SRII. It was a fun idea while it
lasted though.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 14:31:42 GMT

Message no. 29 Gurth writes

> Simon T. Sailer said on 8:05/ 5 May 97...
>
> > Whenever I want to hassle my players with tough metabears,
> > colour-adaptive bandersnaches or even gigantic juggernauts, the
> > result is the same...
> [snip]
> > Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
> > Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?
>
> Critters aren't fun in SR unless you make it difficult for the players.
> You can't play an AD&D-style "kill the monsters" adventure, because
> automatic weapons make it very hard for the monsters to survive.
>
Just about any gun vs nearly any critter is totally terminal as you
say regardless of the shadow comments to the contrary.
A few things like Ghede flis can worry PC's even if they can waste
them dead easy,
PC: I rolled a 10 on Parazoolology, what are these things?
GM: As you guessed Ghede files, oh by the way some carry vitas 3,
don't get bitten :)
PC's with some morals help, try the sprawl sites encounter involoving
a griffin with a group that care about the things fate, sure you can
knock it out, now just how do you pick up a ton of unconcious
griffin, lone star don't want to know (or will ask you for your
permit for your pet when they arrive), the local vets out on a call,
the local society representatives don't have a clue (and will call
the cops), the onlookers think its fun, and the media are beating
feet for the vicinity, the local gang fancy griffin feathers for
their uniforms and now your fixers on the phone with a job from
Johnson who wants his/her stolen Griffin back in one piece for a
large sum of money, only please no cops :)

adjust to suit critter.

> A few things I can think of: get most of the PCs gear away from them
> before letting them go up against a critter. For example, kidnap them,
> move them to a little house on the prairie (sp?), and let them escape. No
> body armor, no guns except the double-barrel shotgun (with two rounds)
> they snatched from the guard, and maybe a few kitchen knives if they're
> smart enough to take those along. _Then_ let them run into a juggernaut :)
>
The water borne critters can be fun, once ran into one of the big
'floating logs' while trying to drive jet skis. Now guess what no one
had the required skill, attacks in vehicle combat is limited by your
skill, we spent most of our actions trying to avoid swimming.
[no we weren't stupid enough to put our selves in this position the
jet skis had been borrowed off the coppers that sank the lifeboat we
had been using as a getaway vehicle, they lasted a whole sleep spell:)
]

> This sort of thing happens in Harlequin's Back at one point: the PCs are
> armed with swords and bows at one point, and they are asked to go out
> hunting for the village.
All sections of said adventure are fun if your PC's are not very good
with swords :).

> Or: Paranormal Animals of Europe, pages 110 and 111 *GM grin*
>
Oh force 6 flamethrower :) whoosh!!!!

Give it impact armour equal to force like bugs get in 2nd ed or the
first competent mage or physad kill geek it in an instant.
Then its a worth oopnent for 250 odd karma PC's with all the toys
money can buy :)

If that doesn't work put em on a plane and leaf 10 pages further
through PAE :) Do remember to clear your escape route first :)

Mark

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 16:57:09 +0000

Message no. 30 On 6 May 97 at 20:29, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
[snip weaponry]
> Of course, they have to use the real heavy stuff to reach that
> level of protection. But in areas roamed by paranormal critters,
> nobody will complain about 'socially inacceptable armor clothing'.
> As soon as circumstances allow, my players take the heaviest stuff
> possible, and I think they are right.
But it's right that - heavy. Check the "Hustle it along" rules on p.
188, SRII. The module "Harlequin" advisesthe GM to allow half that load
in... *cough* No, I don't say it, in difficult terrain. With even
security armors weighting between 9 and 13 kilos plus body, they'll
meet limits quite fast...

[snip]
> If critters could do the same, that juggernaut would suddenly becoume
> a nearly indefeatable beast that could easily feed on small tanks...
> (and thats exactly what the juggernaut should be)
Again: Rulebook. SRII, p. 282: "The Juggernaut has 8 points of hardened
armor."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 10:20:24 -0600

Message no. 31 Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
| > If critters could do the same, that juggernaut would suddenly becoume
| > a nearly indefeatable beast that could easily feed on small tanks...
| > (and thats exactly what the juggernaut should be)
|
| Again: Rulebook. SRII, p. 282: "The Juggernaut has 8 points of hardened
| armor."

Yup. And hardened armor equals vehicle armor which equals barrier.
Question: why does the juggernaut have 8 points of hardened armor?
What warrents that kind of protection? Guesses?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 18:46:12 +0100

Message no. 32 > | Again: Rulebook. SRII, p. 282: "The Juggernaut has 8 points of hardened
> | armor."
>
> Yup. And hardened armor equals vehicle armor which equals barrier.
> Question: why does the juggernaut have 8 points of hardened armor?
> What warrents that kind of protection? Guesses?
>
> -David

I wouldn't say so. Hardened armor equals barrier, but vehicle armor
is another thing entirely. When the rules for vehicle armor are used,
the armor rating itself becomes a barrier, and the body rating is
added as standard armor. Furthermore, the damage level of any non-AV
weapon is lowered by one.
Its getting confusing...

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 19:03:17 +0100

Message no. 33 > > same with combat drugs... What reason could anybody have to
> > feed Jazz to Piasmas?
>
> It's cheaper and less dangerous than cybering them? Animals suffer from
> what, for want of a better term, I'll call cyberpsychosis (see page 220 of
> SRII) so feeding guard animals a few combat drugs would be safer to the
> corp that uses them.
>
> --
> Gurth

Yes, I know the advantages of combat drugs. But no way will this work
for animals. Cybering animals is out of question for me (except for
very rare occations...special con 'experiments')
Now to the drugs... It might be possible to use them on soldiers,
since they can take a dose when the rumble starts. But animals can't,
so they have to be kept under constant drug influence. Guess they
would die after a few days... Can you imagine the costs?
Dunno the price for a Piasma, but I estimate it would be around 50k
or more.
Try to think as a security agency...Critters like that would be
prohibitively expensive, and the con would use drones instead.

In my game, I try to give even
the opposition a live, and weaknesses. Not everybody lives just to
toughen up the players lifes. Security guards are just humans, and
are not always looking the right way, and the security rigger on duty
might just play chess with his sec-mage comrade....

And corps don't spend more money on security than on research.

ss

From:	mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 10:16:22 -0700

Message no. 34 > > It's cheaper and less dangerous than cybering them? Animals suffer from
> > what, for want of a better term, I'll call cyberpsychosis (see page 220 of
> > SRII) so feeding guard animals a few combat drugs would be safer to the
> > corp that uses them.
>
> Now to the drugs... It might be possible to use them on soldiers,
> since they can take a dose when the rumble starts. But animals can't,
> so they have to be kept under constant drug influence. Guess they
> would die after a few days... Can you imagine the costs?
>
It wouldn't be unreasonable for the corp to have developed a collar
for the animals which automatically injects the drug on command from
the security system. That way, the animal will only be under the effects
when trouble starts (but only once the runners have been detected).

The first few animals may be pushovers, but the rest are likely to be
more effective.

Mike

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 12:04:45 -0700

Message no. 35 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> > That's how I've been playing hardened armor.
>
> Hmm... I don't think thats the right way in any case. You use this
> rule on military grade armor (which is hardened armor), too?
> Or just on vehicles and structures?
>
> ss

SRII page 218: "Creatures with hardened armor have an exoskeleton
possessing the same qualities as vehicle armor."

SRII page 108: "In attacks against vehicles with armor, the armor acts
as a Barrier Rating. That is, if the attacking weapon does not exceed
the rating of the vehicle armor, it will not penetrate."

-and-

SRII page 108: "When resisting damage, a driver whose vehicle has
vehicle armor rolls a number of dice equal to the Body of the vehicle,
plus one-half the vehicle armor against a target number equal to the
Power of the weapon, minus the Body plus vehicle Armor Ratings."

From what I understand non-critter hardened armor, such as military
grade, has the same properties as well.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 12:17:16 -0700

Message no. 36 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say so. Hardened armor equals barrier, but vehicle armor
> is another thing entirely. When the rules for vehicle armor are used,
> the armor rating itself becomes a barrier, and the body rating is
> added as standard armor. Furthermore, the damage level of any non-AV
> weapon is lowered by one.

SRII page 218: "Creatures with hardened armor have an exoskeleton
possessing the same qualities as vehicle armor."

It's pretty straight forward, vehicle armor is not "another thing
entirely," that's how hardened armor works.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 18:51:20 EDT

Message no. 37 On Wed, 7 May 1997 10:20:24 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
<snip>
>Yup. And hardened armor equals vehicle armor which equals barrier.
>Question: why does the juggernaut have 8 points of hardened armor?
>What warrents that kind of protection? Guesses?

Defense against anything that could conceivably take it down:) Imagine,
just what kind of natural predators could a juggernaut have to keep its
population in line? And what would your players do when/if they were to
come upon such a creature? >:) >:)

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	"Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 15:53:06 +0200

Message no. 38 Now I've read a lot about paranormal critters. But I don't own the
PAoNA/E, but am interested in juggernauts (the sound just too ...
interseting? dangerous?)
Could someone please give a brief description, perhaps stats too?

And, please send it to me personally, I think most peolpe on the list
do know them!

-- Arno

From:	"Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 16:03:59 +0200

Message no. 39 On Tue, 6 May 1997 20:18:07 +0100, Simon T. Sailer wrote:

>same with combat drugs... What reason could anybody have to
>feed Jazz to Piasmas?

Perhaps it's someone just as sick as ... well, you know, don't you?

answer follows, but also some useful ideas

s
p
o
i
l
e
r

s
p
a
c
e

... sick as Tinner!

;)

Just think about some mad scientists, or even a big corp, that want's
to test new developed drugs. Then, by some accident / sabotage, these
drugs end up in the food for the guarding animals. (Here's the first
anchor to a short run: the runners are hired to handle the animals, and
to find out, why they've gon mad) After that, the rest of the food is
meant to get destroyed, but the one who was paid to get it to the
facility where that sort of stuff is destroyed (missing the correct
term, some sort of special waste burning facility) decides to save all
that money the facility is expected to get and simply dumps the stuff
somewhere. There you go. That same thing happens quite regular these
days with chemical waste.

--
Arno
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From:	Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 22:58:42 EDT

Message no. 40 On Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:31 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>Good idea, except that SRI, and therefore PAoNA, didn't _have_ hardened
>armor -- it was introduced in SRII, and the sourcebook updates section
>gives hardened armor ratings for all the PAoNA critters that should have
>it. Tripling it isn't necessary.

IIRC the updates section only mentions which critters HAVE hardened
armor. SRI listed armor ratings for the critters that had armor, it's
just in SRII where a distinction between conventional (ballistic/impact)
armor and Hardened Armor is made. But then I don't have a copy of the
book handy so I can't really check.....

<flash of insight>

I do however have copies of PAoNA and PAoE (which has a complete listing
of *all* the critters' stats in SRII format.

It seems I was wrong (but I don't care 'cause my package passed the test
program with flying colors so I don't have to do a major overhaul and I
can turn it in on time!!). However, after persusing several critters
with armor ratings, it seems that all the SRI values for armor were
doubled for SRII. This incidently makes a Juggernaut go from being on
par armorwise with a Banshee to being WAAAAAY inferior. (4 => 8, versus a
banshee's 6 => 18). If you really wanted to up critter armor ratings,
you could just increase their SRII values by 50%. That would bring them
up to the same level relative to vehicular ratings from SRI.

~Tim

From:	Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 22:58:43 EDT

Message no. 41 On Wed, 7 May 1997 19:03:17 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer" writes:
>Yes, I know the advantages of combat drugs. But no way will this work
>for animals. Cybering animals is out of question for me (except for
>very rare occations...special con 'experiments')
>Now to the drugs... It might be possible to use them on soldiers,
>since they can take a dose when the rumble starts. But animals can't,
>so they have to be kept under constant drug influence. Guess they
>would die after a few days... Can you imagine the costs?

Constant drug influence? If the corp is shelling out that much money to
have paranormals, and then juice them up with combat drugs, why couldn't
they spend a few extra nuyen and rig them up with radio controlled
injection collars or something. Or wired to get triggered when ever
there is an adrenalin rush (only a minor essence loss)... or even better
just have some bio put in... I imagine that SOMEONE has thought of
producing bioware for animals, and having it "test run" on which ever
corp the runners happen to be hitting next. Paisma with an adrenal pump,
pain-editor, synaptic accelerator, etc. anyone?

[...]

>And corps don't spend more money on security than on research.

Unless, of course their security IS research.

~Tim

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Thu, 8 May 1997 13:29:43 GMT

Message no. 42 David Buehrer writes
>
> Hm.. armor. Who says the beast never comes out of the wilderness?
> Same scenario as above except the villain is a mage that's cast
> control thoughts on the hell hounds (or raised them from puppies) and
> sets them on the PCs as they cut through the city park.
>
Just send them somewhere nice and hot, want to wear security armour,
sure, do you know what heat exhaustion is? :) the lions like their
Shadowrunners ready cooked you know.

> Or, send the PCs through a Storm Crow nesting sight. No ammount of
> armor is going to stop a lightning bolt. If I did this I'd send the
> angry flock flying around the characters (ever seen Hitchcock's "The
> Birds"?). Then a thundercloud appears out of knowwhere. Bolts of
> lightning start to leap down around the PCs. At this point if the
> players have it in their minds that they can win, I'd let them have
> it. And if they kill a few crows, so what. You've got hundreds of
> them. It ain't going to slow down that lightning one bit.
>
Flock critters work fine until the area effect attacks get going,
however sensible characters will still leave rather than fight, i
mean why take the risk if you don't have to?

> The tiger has stealth, it's got camo, and almost full cover. Take a
> bandersnatch with stealth, coloration, cover from the trees,
> perception modifiers cuz it's night and your PCs will never know what
> hit them. Apply those same modifiers to the PC's reaction tests too
> and the bandersnatch will get at least one full round to maul
> someone. Read the suprise rules and the perception rules.
>
Perception modifiers can rappildly mount up, camo + lighting, plus
cover soon reaches +10 on that base 4, thrown in a distraction wounds
or something and 18's are too easy to achieve at which point the poor
PC doesn't stand a chance so be vaugely careful what you drop on them.

Mark

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Thu, 8 May 1997 12:10:44 +0100

Message no. 43 Simon T. Sailer said on 19:03/ 7 May 97...

> Now to the drugs... It might be possible to use them on soldiers,
> since they can take a dose when the rumble starts. But animals can't,
> so they have to be kept under constant drug influence. Guess they
> would die after a few days... Can you imagine the costs?
> Dunno the price for a Piasma, but I estimate it would be around 50k
> or more.

The cost'd be equal to whatever it costs you to capture one. You might be
able to get it cheaper if you hire shadowrunners who are ignorant of the
real cost of bringing in a piasma, though.

However, it's not necessary to replace the animals after a few days. All
you need is a collar with a remote-controlled drug injector; when there's
trouble, the guards trigger the injector and the animal receives a dose of
combat drugs.
The piasmae last a lot longer than if you feed 'em drugs in their food,
and they won't get immune to the drugs as fast either.

> Try to think as a security agency...Critters like that would be
> prohibitively expensive, and the con would use drones instead.

Still, various sourcebooks indicate critters are used by various corps in
various places, so it would be safe to assume some try to enhance their
guard animals, either with cyberware or in other ways.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Thu, 8 May 1997 13:35:31 GMT

Message no. 44 Arno R. Lehmann writes

> Now I've read a lot about paranormal critters. But I don't own the
> PAoNA/E, but am interested in juggernauts (the sound just too ...
> interseting? dangerous?)
> Could someone please give a brief description, perhaps stats too?
>

Big thing the size of a house, take a look at the picture in the
sourcebook updates in SR2 :), those snacks do look tasty :)
PNANA claims the things will live through cluster bomb hits but in
practice heavy weapons or AK98's etc with APDS will kill them right
quick, though critter variation rules and upping the armour to 12 not
the 8 SR2 lists can give characters pause for thought if they don't
have any APDS or are saving that one vital clip. (i try to keep PC's
short on this stuff its so effective in SR though it should be)

The game statistics also appear in the full critters list in PAE.

Mark

From:	Tuvyah@***.COM
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Thu, 8 May 1997 03:12:36 -0400

Message no. 45 M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk (Mark Steedman) writes:

::Gurth writes

::> Simon T. Sailer said on 8:05/ 5 May 97...
::>
::> > Whenever I want to hassle my players with tough metabears,
::> > colour-adaptive bandersnaches or even gigantic juggernauts, the
::> > result is the same...
::> [snip]
::> > Same goes for nearly all animals. They are no challenge.
::> > Anybody got a idea (aside from: 'Up their stats.')?
::>
::> Critters aren't fun in SR unless you make it difficult for the players.
::> You can't play an AD&D-style "kill the monsters" adventure, because
::> automatic weapons make it very hard for the monsters to survive.
::>
::Just about any gun vs nearly any critter is totally terminal as you
::say regardless of the shadow comments to the contrary.

Yah. Personally, I have no problem with critters being less of a threat in
Shadowrun. Recent (last 5,000 years, at least) human history has pretty much
been a rising curve of human effectiveness against animal threats. We've
gotten deadlier, and the other predators have not. It seems only logical that
the Awakening has upped the power levels on both sides, and so hasn't really
leveled the playing field. Cockatrices have magic? So do we. Plus we've got
nifty techno-toys that we didn't have 60 years ago.

Animal threats are only really dangerous when we are unprepared -- i.e.
stripped of the technology that has made us the current Big Kahunas of the
food chain.

I was in Kenya two years ago, and we didn't have to worry about the lions and
cheetahs -- because we spent our time in and near our Land Rovers and we had
a couple of game wardens with AK-47s, just in case. (Also, a century of Brits
with guns and Maasai with spears have taught the cats to just say "no" to
man-eating.)

The one time I WAS in danger, I was in the middle of a nice luxury 4-star
encampment, walking to the dining hall. No knife, no heavy boots, not even a
good walking stick -- unprepared. I was attacked by a spitting cobra on the
steps. (Fortunately, the thing spat its poison, it didn't bite, and I was
wearing long pants.) After the first miss, the cobra didn't press the issue.
I went inside and talked to the staff. Properly prepared, they got big
sticks, found the thing, and whacked it to death.

The few times we've had paranimals in a scenario, they've wreaked havoc
because the encounter was when the players were not expecting it, and were
consequently lacking in body armor, machine guns, and force 10 foci. It's not
the Ares guard-piasma that gets you; it's the devil rats in your bed.

My two cents.

--Smilin' Ted
"....who knows why he's smilin'."

From:	"Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 22:13:44 -0500

Message no. 46 On Wed, 7 May 1997, Tim P Cooper wrote:

> On Wed, 7 May 1997 19:03:17 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer" writes:
> >Yes, I know the advantages of combat drugs. But no way will this work
> >for animals. Cybering animals is out of question for me (except for
> >very rare occations...special con 'experiments')
> >Now to the drugs... It might be possible to use them on soldiers,
> >since they can take a dose when the rumble starts. But animals can't,
> >so they have to be kept under constant drug influence. Guess they
> >would die after a few days... Can you imagine the costs?
>
> Constant drug influence? If the corp is shelling out that much money to
> have paranormals, and then juice them up with combat drugs, why couldn't
> they spend a few extra nuyen and rig them up with radio controlled
> injection collars or something. Or wired to get triggered when ever
> there is an adrenalin rush (only a minor essence loss)...

Don't tell me, paranormal juicers :)

or even better
> just have some bio put in... I imagine that SOMEONE has thought of
> producing bioware for animals, and having it "test run" on which ever
> corp the runners happen to be hitting next. Paisma with an adrenal pump,
> pain-editor, synaptic accelerator, etc. anyone?

If paranormals have such a problem with cyberware, what's to say they
don't have an equal problem with bio? A lot like mages in that respect, I
would think.

-Q

---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Thu, 8 May 1997 00:50:13 -0400

Message no. 47 > >same with combat drugs... What reason could anybody have to
> >feed Jazz to Piasmas?

Because they get stupid and hard to control if you cyber them, but mind
altering chemicals have proven effective in controlling both man and beast
throughout history? :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"We could find a speck of dust and scribble down our life stories ..."

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Fri, 9 May 1997 18:43:10 +0100

Message no. 48 > Constant drug influence? If the corp is shelling out that much money to
> have paranormals, and then juice them up with combat drugs, why couldn't
> they spend a few extra nuyen and rig them up with radio controlled
> injection collars or something. Or wired to get triggered when ever
> there is an adrenalin rush (only a minor essence loss)...

Hell, me and my big mouth ;)
The radio controlled collars are Ok. I just didn't think of
something like that.

> or even better
> just have some bio put in... I imagine that SOMEONE has thought of
> producing bioware for animals, and having it "test run" on which ever
> corp the runners happen to be hitting next.
> Paisma with an adrenal pump,
> pain-editor, synaptic accelerator, etc. anyone?

Nope, sorry, thats far from (game) reality. Why should the corp
test said Piasma in a place where runners can geek it?
*Blam-Blam* (two bullets from sniper rifle)- all the research and all
the nuyen, all the work killed in an instant. (maybe the piasma will
kill one or two runners first, but who cares?)

> >And corps don't spend more money on security than on research.
>
> Unless, of course their security IS research.
>
> ~Tim

As long as they are researching, they won't use it.
But I could imagine SecCorp A selling those new
ultra-hot-yet-to-be-tested security gadgets to Corp B, and then
hire the runners to raid corp B's facility to see how their own
security works... Now isn't that a good idea? ;)

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Fri, 9 May 1997 18:47:36 +0100

Message no. 49 > Yah. Personally, I have no problem with critters being less of a threat in
> Shadowrun.
> --Smilin' Ted
> "....who knows why he's smilin'."
>

Basically, what you say is right, but the game is simply much more
fun when you have to deal with paranormal-men-eaters on top of
secguards, snipers and sammies.

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: Paranormals
Date:	Fri, 9 May 1997 18:55:13 +0100

Message no. 50 > > Try to think as a security agency...Critters like that would be
> > prohibitively expensive, and the con would use drones instead.
>
> Still, various sourcebooks indicate critters are used by various corps in
> various places, so it would be safe to assume some try to enhance their
> guard animals, either with cyberware or in other ways.
>
> Gurth

I meant just wasting the critters with drugs would be too expensive.
And IMHO, critters are only used because of their superbe senses, not
because of their combat power. They just have to realize a intrusion
(especially dual-natured ones) and make lots of noise- Steel Lynx
combat drones and secguards with assault rifles take care of the
rest. Critters simply aren't deadly enough- and far too random. Once
let loose, the'll kill anyone- runners, security guards,
pedestrians...
And therefore, I don't think drugs would be necessary.
ss

Message no. 51 > It's pretty straight forward, vehicle armor is not "another thing
> entirely," that's how hardened armor works.
>
> ===
> @>--,--'--- Loki

Hardened Armor= Barrier rating. Nothing more.

Vehicular armor= Barrier+non-hardened armor rating equal to
body+decreasing the attacks damage level by one.

And these two are NOT the same.
The problem is, SRII states that
Critter armor should be the same as vehicular armor. And in my game,
thats not the case.

Arguable: If Critters do get vehicular armor...

Not Arguable: hardened armor is not equal to vehicular armor.
(think of military grade armor or gel-packs, they are hardened armor,
too-are you trying telling me they are vehicular armor as well?)

ss

Message no. 52 Thanks to all the people who sent me info about the juggernauts!
They _are_ impressing.

--
Arno
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Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
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Message no. 53 > A few things I can think of: get most of the PCs gear away from them
> before letting them go up against a critter. For example, kidnap them,
> move them to a little house on the prairie (sp?), and let them escape. No
> body armor, no guns except the double-barrel shotgun (with two rounds)
> they snatched from the guard, and maybe a few kitchen knives if they're
> smart enough to take those along. _Then_ let them run into a juggernaut :)
>

Other tactics;
- Make the animals attack in packs, and outnumber the players.
- Team the animals up with a few human NPC's
- Disadvantage the players in their environment, ie; dark, rain, cold, in
some way that doesn't affect the animal (A bit hard against that onmipotent
cyberguy)
- Make the animals attack from surprise (fudge the rolls if you have to)
- Isolate the players from each other.
- Make unique critters with upgraded powers

The above tactics are ones that I have seen work, or have worked against
me as a player. Four hellhounds in a dark building will scare the drek
out of a player, and a piasma surprising a lone scout will probably
seriously wound said character, unless he pulls some serious Karma out of
his butt.

As far as unique critters go; Regenerating Bandersnatches are always fun.

Marty

Message no. 54 Simon T. Sailor wrote:

>>Basically, what you say is right, but the game is simply much more
>>fun when you have to deal with paranormal-men-eaters on top of
>>secguards, snipers and sammies.

True. Perhaps I can phrase this more usefully by saying that paranimals are
most deadly when you are on their turf. To me, this is less about piasmas in
the corp HQ than it is about devil rats in your foyer when you stagger home
drunk from Dante's Inferno. When you're prepared for them, they're no
challenge, except perhaps as an exercise in pest control. (One of my first
kills was a cockatrice the GM was sure would zap me.) But when you're not
ready....

So it's all about the scenario. Here are some examples:

The aforementioned devil rats vs. drunken Sammie;

Anything in the Mojave desert. If the party's LAV or APC breaks down out
there, they can only carry a limited amount of gear as they head toward
civilization. That's when the Anasazi, the Nova scorpions, and the Eyekillers
start to close in....

Smuggling runs where the party goes on foot to avoid detection...take away
those helos and it evens up the playing field....

Basically, any situation where the party isn't ready and armed to the teeth.

I'm not an enormous fan of paranormal guard animals; to my way of thinking, a
human being with 2050 tech (and/or 2050 magic) will usually be far more
deadly even than a piasma or hell hound, and more cost-effective, too. IMHO,
of course. I can see where it would be a nice change of pace for the players.

Smilin' Ted
"...who knows why he's smilin'."

Message no. 55 On 9 May 97 at 19:06, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
[snip]
> Not Arguable: hardened armor is not equal to vehicular armor.
> (think of military grade armor or gel-packs, they are hardened armor,
> too-are you trying telling me they are vehicular armor as well?)
Nope. Don't be silly - a critter will not wear an armored Eurocar on
its back. It's just their armor is treated as vehicle armor by the
rules. Exactly the same. Treated by the rules. Not: Is the same. You
get the difference?

Sascha
--
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|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |worth the pain you feel |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----Queensryche-+

Message no. 56 > > Not Arguable: hardened armor is not equal to vehicular armor.
> > (think of military grade armor or gel-packs, they are hardened armor,
> > too-are you trying telling me they are vehicular armor as well?)
> Nope. Don't be silly - a critter will not wear an armored Eurocar on
> its back. It's just their armor is treated as vehicle armor by the
> rules. Exactly the same. Treated by the rules. Not: Is the same. You
> get the difference?
>
> Sascha

Yep, that was my problem... If critter armor should be treated as
vehicle armor. I know what the rulebook sais, but still I'm not sure
if this is what fasa actually means. I have treated critter armor
just as ordinary hardened armor so far.

ss

Message no. 57 On 12 May 97 at 8:10, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
[snip]
> Yep, that was my problem... If critter armor should be treated as
> vehicle armor. I know what the rulebook sais, but still I'm not sure
> if this is what fasa actually means. I have treated critter armor
> just as ordinary hardened armor so far.
Sorry, but we can't follow what FASA intends to write, only what they
do print. We aren't psychics here (well, not all, at least - most are
just psychotic, like me :-).

And what's the difference between hardened and vehicle armor in _your_
books? Rules-wise, I mean? *still imagining a juggernaut with an
Eurocar straped to back*

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | Hate is a force of |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | back turned. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - T.Pratchett, |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ------Masquerade-+

Message no. 58 Sascha Pabst meant:

> Sorry, but we can't follow what FASA intends to write, only what they
> do print. We aren't psychics here (well, not all, at least - most are
> just psychotic, like me :-).
>
True indeed. And so I just do what I think is right, and when I
get the impression that something in the books does not work best AND
when I feel that fasa (or maybe the translators) have made a mistake,
I do not hesitate to use the rules I feel work best.

> And what's the difference between hardened and vehicle armor in _your_
> books? Rules-wise, I mean? *still imagining a juggernaut with an
> Eurocar straped to back*
>
> Sascha

The problem is, when writing, I never have the books at hand, so
I can't give you quotes (and you seem to like them, don't you? ;).

Ok, IIRC:
Vehicle armor isn't just armor rating- It's a rule. And the rule sais
that the vehicles armor rating should be a barrier, and the vehicles
body should be added as a non-hardened armor rating. Furthermore, the
weapons damage level is lowered by one.
Hardened armor is any armor that does not allow a weapon with power
niveau equal to or lower than the actual armor rating to penetrate.
IIRC the right chapter in the rulebook should be 'Barriers'... and in
the FoF sourcebook, in the description of the military grade armor,
should be a note referring to hardened armor, stating that it should
be treated as a barrier.

And in my game, vehicles just get hardened armor, not the vehicle
armor boni, no matter what the rulebook sais.

I guess this is not what you wanted to read, but sorry, it's all I
can tell now.

Message no. 59 ---"Simon T. Sailer" raved wildly:
>
> The problem is, SRII states that
> Critter armor should be the same as vehicular armor. And in my game,
> thats not the case.
>
> Arguable: If Critters do get vehicular armor...
>
> Not Arguable: hardened armor is not equal to vehicular armor.
> (think of military grade armor or gel-packs, they are hardened armor,
> too-are you trying telling me they are vehicular armor as well?)

Hardened Armor, as listed under Critter Powers states is has the same
qualities as vehicle armor. That has been my point all along. Military
armor and jell packs (FoF) came out after the critter books
(PAoNA/PAoE). They simply stated they were hardened armor, and nothing
else to the contrary that described for crittersr. So yes, I treat
them just as critter hardened armor...which in turn is treated just as
vehicle armor.

It's kinda funny. You came to the list with a question on how to make
your critters more of a threat and keep them from being stomped on. It
seems all you've been doing is argue against just about every
suggestion offered. Even arguing against what's listed as B&W in the
books.

I'm just offering suggestions or trying to help explain things. Which
I thought was what you'd oringinally asked for. This is just how I
understand the rules and some of how I run things. Perhaps it's why my
critters stand up to more of a fight against my players. <shrug>

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
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Message no. 60 ---"Simon T. Sailer" complained:
>
> Critters... far too random. Once let loose, the'll kill anyone-
runners,
> security guards, pedestrians...

A clever GM can find ways around such things. ;o) For example, on an
adventure I designed, the runners need to break into a Ft. Lewis
research facility. Part of the on-site security was a pair of piasma
that patrolled the grounds at nite. Piasma have either wide-band or
high-frequency hearing (can't remember which specifically, and I'm at
work). The security guards wore a badge that emitted a sound within
the spectrum the critters could pick up, and the piasma were
conditioned to ignore an inidividual that would emit this sound. You
can now get the picture: runners hop the fence, guards and piasma
converge on intruders, piasma are ONLY ravaging those not putting out
the sound...

EGMG

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

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Message no. 61 >Piasma are ravaging only those not emitting >the sound.
Great, until they get close, or something (like Silence) muffles that
sound.

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

Message no. 62 ---tom Cone wrote:
>
> >Piasma are ravaging only those not emitting >the sound.
> Great, until they get close, or something (like Silence) muffles that
> sound.

Exactly. However the pitch of the sound is above that a normal human
is going to hear. So why would they be tossing silence around from the
get go?

Now a runner with augmented hearing might detect the sound. Or a
search of a downed guard might reveal the badge, and an Electronics
test might suggest what it's for. The idea for the runners to dicover
such nuances if they put forth the effort. If not, they get to slug it
out with the guards and the meta-bears.

I try to give my players an out if they show some ingenuity.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

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Message no. 63 In a message dated 97-05-14 03:23:34 EDT, daddyjim@**********.COM (Loki)
writes:

<< Now a runner with augmented hearing might detect the sound. Or a
search of a downed guard might reveal the badge, and an Electronics
test might suggest what it's for. The idea for the runners to dicover
such nuances if they put forth the effort. If not, they get to slug it
out with the guards and the meta-bears.

I try to give my players an out if they show some ingenuity. >>

I'd like to see some runners sticking around to try to figure out what the
electronic gizmo (badge) does when they have two (or more) piasma to deal
with at the moment.
-Dale

Message no. 64 >Why would they be tossing Silence around...

Silly me, I thought they were trying to be sneaky. :)

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

Message no. 65 > >Piasma are ravaging only those not emitting >the sound.
> Great, until they get close, or something (like Silence) muffles that
> sound.
>
So the guards are a little bit worried about their animals.... Probably
keeps them on their toes.

Equate properly trianed paranormals to the dog squad of any police
force. They aren't exactly going to ravage anything in sight.

Message no. 66 On Wed, 14 May 1997 03:31:45 -0400 Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message ....(Loki) writes:
>
><< Now a runner with augmented hearing might detect the sound. Or a
> search of a downed guard might reveal the badge, and an Electronics
> test might suggest what it's for. The idea for the runners to dicover
> such nuances if they put forth the effort. If not, they get to slug it
> out with the guards and the meta-bears.
>
> I try to give my players an out if they show some ingenuity. >>
>
>I'd like to see some runners sticking around to try to figure out what
the
>electronic gizmo (badge) does when they have two (or more) piasma to
deal
>with at the moment.

In a game with my group, someone would probably pick it up, shrug and
stuff it in a pocket. Then of course the rest of the players would try
to figure out why the piasma completely IGNORED him...

~Tim

Message no. 67 > You
> can now get the picture: runners hop the fence, guards and piasma
> converge on intruders, piasma are ONLY ravaging those not putting out
> the sound...
>
> EGMG
>
> ===
> @>--,--'--- Loki

Yeah, I get the picture... And what if one of the piasmas escaped
through the hole the runners blew into the fence?
How many pedestrians would they kill?
And what would it cost to the con?

ss

Message no. 68 > Hardened Armor, as listed under Critter Powers states is has the same
> qualities as vehicle armor. That has been my point all along. Military
> armor and jell packs (FoF) came out after the critter books
> (PAoNA/PAoE). They simply stated they were hardened armor, and nothing
> else to the contrary that described for crittersr. So yes, I treat
> them just as critter hardened armor...which in turn is treated just as
> vehicle armor.
>
But then the armors protective capacity would depend on the body of
the person wearing it... Honestly: does this seem right to you?
BTW,Treating the critters armor as vehicle armor is ok for me...
(I do have to agree somewhere :)

> I'm just offering suggestions or trying to help explain things. Which
> I thought was what you'd oringinally asked for. This is just how I
> understand the rules and some of how I run things. Perhaps it's why my
> critters stand up to more of a fight against my players. <shrug>
>
> ===
> @>--,--'--- Loki

Easy, easy... I don't mean to be offensive or something- I just feel
that what you say is not entirely right for me. And the reason why I
argue about anything said is that I can't accept all those things in
my game, and I want whoever posted to know why.
Apologies for my bad conduct... ;)

ss

Message no. 69 On 14 May 97 at 19:36, Simon T. Sailer wrote:

> > can now get the picture: runners hop the fence, guards and piasma
> > converge on intruders, piasma are ONLY ravaging those not putting out
> > the sound...
>
> Yeah, I get the picture... And what if one of the piasmas escaped
> through the hole the runners blew into the fence? How many
> pedestrians would they kill? And what would it cost to the con?
>

Look again. He said HOP the fence.

--
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#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
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stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell

Message no. 70 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> But then the armors protective capacity would depend on the body of
> the person wearing it... Honestly: does this seem right to you?
> BTW,Treating the critters armor as vehicle armor is ok for me...
> (I do have to agree somewhere :)

I think part of the idea of hardened armor is it reinforces the damage
resisting capabilities of the target's body. Here, I figure you're
really getting down to a question of game mechanics. So far I've had
no trouble using it pretty much as written.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
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Message no. 71 ---tom Cone wrote:
>
> >Why would they be tossing Silence around...
>
> Silly me, I thought they were trying to be sneaky. :)

My group looks at it this way, though...

Sure Silence will help on the stealth side of the coin, but now the
sustained spell is this glowing beacon you're carrying around on the
astral side, and the mage is staggering around with +2's.

They'd more rely onphysical stealth skill when trying to sneak onto a
military research compund.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

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Message no. 72 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> > You
> > can now get the picture: runners hop the fence, guards and piasma
> > converge on intruders, piasma are ONLY ravaging those not putting
out
> > the sound...
> >
> > EGMG
>
> Yeah, I get the picture... And what if one of the piasmas escaped
> through the hole the runners blew into the fence?
> How many pedestrians would they kill?
> And what would it cost to the con?

Eeeesh. You really try to over complicate things for yourself. The
research facility in this adventure was on Ft. Lewis territory. It was
a highly secretive compound, far removed from access roads, back in a
heavily wooded area. Personnel and supplies were flown in by chopper.
Pedestrians wandering around in that area area already likely to be
arrested, shot or taken out by other security measures...in other
words THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING THERE.

The fence was reinforced, electrified, and tension alarmed. My team
was smart enough not to go frontal assault and blow a hole in it.

OK, so maybe my ideas wouldn't work with your groups mentality. I'm
just offering ideas and trying to show that a creative GM can work
with possibilites.

<sigh. throw up hands in a give-up gesture.>

==
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 73 ---"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" wrote:
>
> Equate properly trianed paranormals to the dog squad of any police
> force. They aren't exactly going to ravage anything in sight.

Exactly, and I think that's one of the points SS keeps forgetting in
his attempts to overcomplicate things for himself. These are TRAINED
critters, not just something they caught out in the Tir wildlands and
turned loose on their grounds.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
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Message no. 74 In a message dated 97-05-14 13:42:23 EDT, you write:

<< Yeah, I get the picture... And what if one of the piasmas escaped
through the hole the runners blew into the fence?
How many pedestrians would they kill?
And what would it cost to the con? >>

You know...as a GM for most of my games, I never even considered the thought
of that happening. Thats a great idea.
NEWS FLASH: Piasma escapes, kills 12....story at ten =)

Message no. 75 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> But then the armors protective capacity would depend on the body of
> the person wearing it... Honestly: does this seem right to you?
> BTW,Treating the critters armor as vehicle armor is ok for me...
> (I do have to agree somewhere :)
>

Another thing I meant to add on this in my previous post, the weight
for suits of armor is also figured off your Body (check it out).
Perhaps they feel this designates the size and amount of plates and
other damage reducing factors being put into the armor? This being the
case, is it that unreasonable that with a suit of Hardened Armor, Body
would also be factored into it's protective quality?

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

Message no. 76 > research facility in this adventure was on Ft. Lewis territory. <snip> ...in
other
> words THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING THERE.
>
Thats exactly what I wanted to read- just a explanation. Thats why I
ask.

> OK, so maybe my ideas wouldn't work with your groups mentality. I'm
> just offering ideas and trying to show that a creative GM can work
> with possibilites.
>
And I appreciate it, be assured.

> <sigh. throw up hands in a give-up gesture.>
>
> ==
> @>--,--'--- Loki

Ok, now I'm happy... all of you have given me some splendid ideas not
only about the handling of paranormals. I'll have to rethink many
things I just accepted up to now.
Thanks a lot.

And sorry if I was a nuicance. ;)

ss

Message no. 77 On 14 May 97 at 19:36, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
[snip paranormal animals as guard beasts]
> Yeah, I get the picture... And what if one of the piasmas escaped
> through the hole the runners blew into the fence?
> How many pedestrians would they kill?
> And what would it cost to the con?
1) They escape.
2) Many - but who cares?
3) Nothing. "See, Mr Judge, we had _double_ wire fences that could
resist double the present critters, plus electrified them. There were
warning signs all over the place, and the critters are all registered
as guard animals. It is really not _our_ responsibility these runners
let them free..." How do you charge someone who has double secured his
animals when some scroupulus releases them?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The truth may be |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| out there, but |
| \___ __/ | | lies are inside |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | your head. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- T.Pratchett |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Message no. 78 > 1) They escape.
> 2) Many - but who cares?
> 3) Nothing. "See, Mr Judge, we had _double_ wire fences that could
> resist double the present critters, plus electrified them. There were
> warning signs all over the place, and the critters are all registered
> as guard animals. It is really not _our_ responsibility these runners
> let them free..." How do you charge someone who has double secured his
> animals when some scroupulus releases them?
>
> Sascha

The point I was trying to make (I have already given up by now) was
that the con wouldn't risk such a thing- even if he could get away
with the results, his reputation would take irreparable damage. So,
IMHO, the con would just say 'Why risk all that nonsense?' and use a
couple of drones instead. They may have their drawbacks as well, but
they surely wont go out feeding on passers-by.

ss

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