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Message no. 1
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:04:36 -0400
<snip discussion on PC actions...>

At 04:36 PM 9/11/98 -0400, Erik Jameson wrote:

>I think it wasn't the act itself that bothered me so much as it was the
>mindset, the mental thing that was going on. Perhaps I was projecting, but
>what sort of mind, PC or player, would come up with that sort of thing? I
>mean, I can at least understand gunning down security guards (though I'm
>generally opposed to it), but cold-blooded murder of innocents...

Well, I wasn't really bothered by the story itself. After reading all of
the posts under the "Dumb things" thread, I was in a mood to look for
laughs. Not that I laughed at the point when he shot the girl after having
sex with her.
I wasn't upset reading it or anything...However...there's no way this would
have happened in my sr game...if someone was going to pull something like
this, first I'd make sure they weren't joking, and if they weren't...it
wouldn't happen...end game, go home. That probably says a lot more than it
actually is...I've really only ever played with people that I know, my
wife, a cousin, some friends who I'd known for a while...so I wouldn't have
really ever been playing with someone like this...If someone wanted to play
sr with me and all they wanted to do was kill kill kill, I'd either send
them over to some AD&D group, or tell them to go buy Doom.
So, though I didn't have the same reaction as your's, I'd definately have
to agree.


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>
Message no. 2
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:34:35 -0700
>Well, I wasn't really bothered by the story itself. After reading all of
>the posts under the "Dumb things" thread, I was in a mood to look for
>laughs. Not that I laughed at the point when he shot the girl after having
>sex with her.

I wrote that off as extreme psychopathicism. Unfortunately, I've met people
this predatory. These are people you are prepared to kill, because they
sure as hell won't think twice about you.

>So, though I didn't have the same reaction as your's, I'd definately have
>to agree.

I had a fairly strong reaction as well, but violence, is violent. I think
my up close and personal view of it has sensitized me in some ways and
desensitized in other ways. Killing can happen so simply ... and there were
times I've done things and said, after the fact, well, you could have been
paralyzed back there. Anyways, off the soapbox ...

From a gaming perspective, I feel that violence should be shocking, and
never a sure thing. There's been a certain attitude inherited that says ...
oh, I'm such and such a level, therefore these monsters will be easy and
others will be hard. But truly, I don't think violence should ever be a
sure thing, even against an unarmed normal person. Desperation kicks in,
ordinary people are capable of extraordinary things ... that's heroism and
cowardice. When the realization strikes that IT is on the line, down to the
wire ... I welcome the fact that SR3 is more lethal than SR2, because now
my players will think twice before resorting to violence. They'd rather be
stealthy, or run away. And, perhaps, that's why I've ended up with my
"killer GM" reputation. Many PC's have been killed in short, sharp, sudden,
and pointless gunfights.

Back to the original example, in a luxury hotel I would have had security
cameras, and I would have had the guards put him down with extreme
prejudice. Or if they were that humanitarian, I would have had family of
the victims arrange for him to have an "accident" whilst in jail. Of the
nasty sort seen but best not described in the movie "American Me".

>--00DNA

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 3
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:44:41 -0400
> Back to the original example, in a luxury hotel I would have had
> security
> cameras, and I would have had the guards put him down with extreme
> prejudice. Or if they were that humanitarian, I would have had family
> of
> the victims arrange for him to have an "accident" whilst in jail. Of
> the
> nasty sort seen but best not described in the movie "American Me".
>
Ahh the lovely steel Christmas tree....
Message no. 4
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:32:19 -0600
At 17:04 9/11/98 -0400, 00DNA wrote

>I wasn't upset reading it or anything...However...there's no way this would
>have happened in my sr game...if someone was going to pull something like
>this, first I'd make sure they weren't joking, and if they weren't...it
>wouldn't happen...end game, go home. That probably says a lot more than it
>actually is...I've really only ever played with people that I know, my
>wife, a cousin, some friends who I'd known for a while...so I wouldn't have
>really ever been playing with someone like this...If someone wanted to play
>sr with me and all they wanted to do was kill kill kill, I'd either send
>them over to some AD&D group, or tell them to go buy Doom.

Odd. I pictured this as a cold calculated plan, and it didn't bother me at
all. If a player came up with a plan like that in my game, I would be
delighted that he took the time to come up with a plan, and it would be
roleplayed out.

If they took a PAC into the streets and started shooting, I would tell them
to go home.

The first is violence for the sake of personal gain, the second is violence
for the sake of violence.

-Adam J
-
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Message no. 5
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:58:20 EDT
In a message dated 9/11/98 2:34:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> Back to the original example, in a luxury hotel I would have had security
> cameras, and I would have had the guards put him down with extreme
> prejudice. Or if they were that humanitarian, I would have had family of
> the victims arrange for him to have an "accident" whilst in jail. Of the
> nasty sort seen but best not described in the movie "American Me".
>
there were (I think he said) cameras in the halls, but I do not see them as
putting cameras int he rooms themselves, invasion of privacy.
I would have had the woman a docwagon subscriber, the death setting off a
hidden Bio-monitor. A HTR team would have been on the way, and contacted the
hotel security to check out a death among their rooms.
Message no. 6
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:56:54 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of 00DNA
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 7:05 AM
>
>
> I've really only ever played with people that
> I know, my
> wife, a cousin, some friends who I'd known for a while...so
> I wouldn't have
> really ever been playing with someone like this...If
> someone wanted to play
> sr with me and all they wanted to do was kill kill kill,
> I'd either send
> them over to some AD&D group, or tell them to go buy Doom.

This guy was a friend (and still would be if we lived near enough to
communicate anymore). It was not a case of him being a 'kill kill
kill' character. This guy played one of the most 'characterful'
characters that I have had in any of my groups (probably because he
played out a fantasised version of himself, rather than a made up
personality). He was just able to see people as 'objects', which is
hardly a unique occurrence in SR. As I said in another post, he (the
player) was stoned when he did it, so it was an action that he
normally would not have done. There was no reason to just up and stop
the game however. The guy made a plan (cold-blooded as it was), and
though he did not think about the ramifications of seducing the woman
(i.e. that he would have to kill her), it was a perfectly valid
action.

However, from an in-game point of view, it was not a situation he
would of easily escaped from, hence the reason he was caught and
jailed. We just said that was the end of his character, and he went
on to make another (though this one never really did work very well).

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 7
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:10:14 -0500
----------
> From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
> the game however. The guy made a plan (cold-blooded as it was), and
> though he did not think about the ramifications of seducing the woman
> (i.e. that he would have to kill her), it was a perfectly valid
> action.

This is one thing that has been getting me since the story started...
wouldn't have made a hell of a lot more sense for him to use Narcojets?
After all, that way he didn't have to kill anybody (and wouldn't leave
those difficult-to-explain corpses with bloodstains spreading across the
floor), an those are quiet to start with...

Maybe I'm just putting too much thought into this.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 8
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: PC actions that disturb...(was:Re: Dumb things)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:21:42 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Nexx
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 1:10 AM
>
>
> This is one thing that has been getting me since the story
> started...
> wouldn't have made a hell of a lot more sense for him to
> use Narcojets?
> After all, that way he didn't have to kill anybody (and
> wouldn't leave
> those difficult-to-explain corpses with bloodstains
> spreading across the
> floor), an those are quiet to start with...
>
> Maybe I'm just putting too much thought into this.

I don't know about too much, but more than he put into it anyway.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

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