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Message no. 1
From: "Sedah Drol" <sedahdro@****.holli.com>
Subject: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:13:41 +500
I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
Curios,
---Sedah Drol


---------
ATTN: Due to lack of Interest, tommorow has been cancelled.
---------
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 c++++>$ u+ P L+ E? W+>W+++ N o? k?
w+>w++++ O--- M-- V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ x++ R++>+++$
b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:08:58 -0700
Sedah Drol wrote:
>
> I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
> about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
> involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
> in a corp facility.


Can you say Negative karma values?? I thought you could..

> Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
> information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
> relatively good video of.

I would make it a BIG reward..

> I asked the players if they felt any
> remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
> question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell?


Yup...

> I mean
> being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
> it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs?


Yup..Especially if their faces are on the front of every scream sheet in
towm...It's kinda hard to run in the shadows with a spot light on you..

> What would you
> other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
> Curios,

First..I would give them 0 karma for the run..I don't care if each runner
pulled a rabbit out of their @** and made it sing "Hello Dolly". That sort of
negative action overbalances anything good or flashy or creative they did
during the adventure..

Second..Big reward for their heads..litterally..What use are their bodies
except as spare parts..

Third..lots of publicity..Lots of negative runner, make it hard for everybody
that runs the shadows sort of stuff..Pissed off runners are the worst sorts
of enemies..

Fourth..Remind the runners..even those who live their lives in jail [Bubba
and all his friends] Hate people who mistreat children..I have seen fights in
jail because of the accusation of being this sort of person [when in fact
that inmate had completely different charges]..Even the lowest of the low
have standards..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 3
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:49:52 -0500 (EST)
>I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
>information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
>relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
>remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
>question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
>being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
>it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
>other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
>Curios,
>

OH, yeah. This is just begging you, as teh wonderful and benign GM that you
are, to make their lives a living HELL, and I say you have evry reason to.
Even in the Shadowrun world, where morals aren't exactly the most popular
trait for a runner to have, only the most ruthless, cold-hearted bastards
would view the death of 149 children that lightly. Have the corp offer a
LARGE bounty on the characters, dead or alive, and have evryone, including
contacts and friends trying to turn them in. This, if nothing else, will
teach them a little compassion for innocents, or at least not to kill in the
interest of self preservation...


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 4
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:46:18 -0400 (EDT)
At 06:13 PM 9/24/96 +500, you wrote:

>I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
>information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
>relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
>remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
>question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
>being somewhat responsible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
>it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
>other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
>Curios,

Well, I sppse those won't be getting as many karma than if they hadn't
killed the kids, possibly even a penalty of some sort.

As for making their lives hellish, I'd say it's conceivable that the
corporation which is sponsoring the facility is going to be pissed, as well
as the children's
relatives.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 5
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:03:48 -0500
> From: Sedah Drol <sedahdro@****.holli.com>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: PC's Morality
> Date: Tuesday, September 24, 1996 8:13 AM

> I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
> about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
> involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
> in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
> information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
> relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
> remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
> question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
> being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
> it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
> other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?

My first idea can be summed up in two words: Vengeful Spirits. After all,
there are ghosts in Shadowrun, as well as all kinds of nasty things which
could possibly be called forth by that much pain and suffering. Could the
death agonies have created a sort of toxic domain? Could a child's
"invisible friend" have been a free spirit? For that matter, some types of
evil spirits might take more of an interest in the characters. Or maybe
something more corporeal wants revenge: parents, friends, etc.

You'd also be quite justified in ruining their street reps. Yeah, there'll
still be Mr. Johnsons who don't mind that sort of "collateral damage," but
it seems to me that these are the ones most likely to "dispose of" deniable
assets when the nasty work's done.

Any shamans in your party? Particularly any whose totems might be a bit
peeved? Loss of magical abilities can be a serious wake-up call.

Contacts, etc. are another source of trouble. I'm sure a lot of them would
want nothing more to do with the PCs. Some of the others might take a
serious interest in a big reward.

I'm fully in favor of having these PCs face the consequences of their
actions. However, if you are going to make things miserable for your
characters, be sure to give them a way out -- a way to atone for what
they've done. If you want to make your game into a morality play, no
problem. But if you just want to make your players miserable, perhaps it's
time to ask yourself if this is a group you really want to GM for.
Message no. 6
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 02:41:52 -0500 (EST)
>I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>in a corp facility.

DEAR GOD!

>Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any information leading to the
capture of >said PCs, whom they had a relatively good video of. I asked the
players if they felt >any remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they
said "No." My
>question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
>being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
>it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
>other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?

First, if word hits the street that these merciless SOB's are responsible
for this action, they will suffer, no they MUST suffer!

Some Johnsons will not hire anyone who behaves in such a manner, esp. if
they are unrepentatnt!
In fact, there will probably be Johnsons hiring teams to wax such runners.
OTOH, there will also be cold hearted rat bastards looking to hire such
stone-killers.
I'd play on the players' sense of well being by offering them nothing but
really evil runs to show them how they are now perceived.

For a Looooong time, they'd get nothing but offers for wetwork and worse,
maybe legbreakings or other terror tactics. (Modesty forbids my mentioning
really evil twisted things, but several come to mind.)
If ya wanna really make 'em squirm, have some sicko serial killer try to
hook up with the team to kill some more kiddies!
Have the media and the Star nickname them the Baby Killer Runner Team.
Have other runners avoid/insult/humiliate them in public.
Have a mother of one of the kids try to hunt them down herself.
Have one of the runners personal friends/relatives/parents/kids find out
about this and leave them! (See Renny's letter to Mrs. Halberstam in the
back of VR 1.0 for more ideas on how to play this one.)

All told, I'd really make them question their ethics.
There are plenty of references to why runners use non-lethal/minimum force
necessary on runs.
Help your players understand that Corp X won't be nearly as vindictive if
all they do is KO a few guards, and do some property damage, compared to
killing innocent kids.

If your players just don't care, maybe their PC's really ARE cold hearted
rat bastards and want to take the game this direction. If that's what you
and they are comfortable with, fine, do it. But I'd still do a lot of the
same things just for logic's sake!

Hope this helps.


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Bad monkey! Somone should spank that monkey!"
Message no. 7
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 00:41:31 -0700
Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
> My first idea can be summed up in two words: Vengeful Spirits. After all,
> there are ghosts in Shadowrun, as well as all kinds of nasty things which
> could possibly be called forth by that much pain and suffering. Could the
> death agonies have created a sort of toxic domain? Could a child's
> "invisible friend" have been a free spirit? For that matter, some types of
> evil spirits might take more of an interest in the characters. Or maybe
> something more corporeal wants revenge: parents, friends, etc.
>


I like the way this guy's mind works.... ;)

> Any shamans in your party? Particularly any whose totems might be a bit
> peeved? Loss of magical abilities can be a serious wake-up call.
>


Another great idea...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 8
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 01:29:54 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> >Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any information leading to the
> capture of >said PCs, whom they had a relatively good video of.


Here..I will make it easy on you..I will put out the contract on them..
The corporation in question contacted the Security division of the Archangel
Corporation..Archangel Security has assigned a Beta Team to acquire the group
responsible for the deaths of all those children..Archangel has teams rated
Alpha through Omega..Alpha being the best most reliable operatives..Each team
is responsible for it's own gear..However, as they go up in ranking they get
substantial discounts on gear and services..So a Beta team should be
extremely competent and well armed..Oh yea..Archangel is housed in a 6 story
coorperate building that houses all of it's operatives who wish to live there
as well as facilities..AA is rumored to be a front for one of the biggest
Shadowrunning organizations around...If you want me to provide a complete
team I will..I suggest you use one of your own creation..I am likely to
overpower them...The terms of the contract with Archangel Security are as
follows:
1] Bounty 80,000 NY per head of the group responsible.
2] Bodies may be turned in for bounty as well [not required].
3] The entire group must be accounted for.
4] Collateral damage must be kept to a minimum.
5] A bonus will be awarded of 40,000 NY per head if all are turned in within
3 weeks.
There..That should just about do it..The Corp in question had all these kids
in one of their areas..What for?? Of course it doesn't matter as the Run..
Operatives at Archangel as consumate professionals..IF there is some hanky
panky going on it will come out and Archangel may exact its own punishment on
whoever tarnishes their reputation...

> Some Johnsons will not hire anyone who behaves in such a manner, esp. if
> they are unrepentatnt!


Yea..we usually ask the Johnson how he wants the run to proceed..Clean and
quiet..or loud and messy..With no guarantees on the first..But at least we
always tried..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 9
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 06:50:18 -0600 (MDT)
Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
|
|> From: Sedah Drol <sedahdro@****.holli.com>
|
|> I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
|> about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
|> involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
|> in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
|> information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
|> relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
|> remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
|> question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
|> being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
|> it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
|> other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
|
|My first idea can be summed up in two words: Vengeful Spirits. After all,
|there are ghosts in Shadowrun, as well as all kinds of nasty things which
|could possibly be called forth by that much pain and suffering. Could the
|death agonies have created a sort of toxic domain? Could a child's
|"invisible friend" have been a free spirit? For that matter, some types of
|evil spirits might take more of an interest in the characters. Or maybe
|something more corporeal wants revenge: parents, friends, etc.

Or maybe something wants to go along for the ride, like a
Wraith. <heh, heh, heh>

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 14:02:00 PDT
>I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>in a corp facility.

The way you quote "innocent" makes me think that there was something
amiss, or that the characters were somewhat justified in the
extermination (genetic engineering, corp plot). Just my suspicious side
creeping in, correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case, the Public at large will view them as innocent. This will
give the corporation considerable leeway in making decisions. Sweeping,
and often obviously illegal activities will be ignored if it was in the
name of Justice or Vengeance. The corporation has had it's prestige
tainted, it's reputation is at stake. They *HAVE* to act, otherwise they
will be seen as being soft on terrorism (leaving them open to further
strikes). Their counter strike will jump to position 1 on the corporate
security agenda, they will pull out all the stops (hiring counter teams,
deploying their own investigators etc.).
Politicians will see a political advantage to ride the counter
terrorism bandwagon, pressure will be put on police forces to do
something about it. Basically, a heatwave the like of which hasn't been
seen for years is going to hit the city, possibly other cities as well.
Point: with that much heat, even their best contacts are going
to be forced to sell them out. They won't be safe, as the street
business is going to be damaged after this heatwave - the runners are
pissed. A complete identity change is necessary for their survival,
leaving the country will only postpone the inevitable.

Also, how much money can 149 families (assuming they weren't
orphans) put together to hire their own runners ? Possibly a half meg
and up, depending on their lifestyle...

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 11
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:03:35 +0000
On 24 Sep 96 at 18:13, Sedah Drol wrote:
> [snip] And the PC's were indirectly
> involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
> in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
> information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
> relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
> remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
> question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
> being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
> it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
> other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?

Do it. Let'em suffer. They call 'emselves Shadowrunners? I know at least one
Seattle based team that would go out -even without being paid- and off 'em.
Have 'em watch crying parents on Trid who offer their whole live-time savings
as reward, too (say, Corp offers 20KY, and a single mother another 2.500Y -
had drastic impact in my group)

With a rep like that, I don't think I'd offer them anything but wetwork jobs
for the Yaks or the Mob from now on. Like "Make the people in that house leave
it till Monday" or stuff like that.


Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 12
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:06:14 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Sedah Drol wrote:

> I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
> about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
> involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
> in a corp facility.

In-campaign ramifications aside, I would *not* reduce the players'
Karma award in any way, especially if the butchery of the children was in
character. As pertains the the rabid discussion we had several months
ago, Karma is not a measure of good or evil, but a gauge of experience.
Even if it's out of character, if they succeeded, they should still get
the success and/or survival karma from the run itself, they just won't
get role-playing karma. I'll stop now before I get too heated...

> Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
> information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
> relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
> remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
> question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
> being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
> it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
> other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?

In my mind, the runners committed the cardinal sin not of killing
innocents but of getting caught in the act. A "relatively good video" is
enough to put their faces all over the evening news. Bad PR is as deadly
for a runner as bad planning. Lots of people have suggested lots of good
ideas as far as social backlash from such an event, so for the sake of
brevity, I'll let this part go, suggesting only that you play the
reactions of the populace at large as though it were real. People will
be horrified, followed by downright angry, and they *will* act upon it.

Marc
Message no. 13
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:30:52 -0700
Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> At 06:13 PM 9/24/96 +500, you wrote:
>
> >I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
> >about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
> >involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
> >in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
> >information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
> >relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
> >remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
> >question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
> >being somewhat responsible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
> >it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
> >other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
> >Curios,
>
> Well, I sppse those won't be getting as many karma than if they hadn't
> killed the kids, possibly even a penalty of some sort.
>
> As for making their lives hellish, I'd say it's conceivable that the
> corporation which is sponsoring the facility is going to be pissed, as well
> as the children's
> relatives.

I've even awarded neagtive karma for killing innocents. It definitely
serves to make the Player's think as the erase their Good Karma off
their chracter sheet and write in a lower number without raising some
stat or putting the amount into team karma...


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 14
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 07:53:27 +1000 (EST)
> OH, yeah. This is just begging you, as teh wonderful and benign GM that you
> are, to make their lives a living HELL, and I say you have evry reason to.
> Even in the Shadowrun world, where morals aren't exactly the most popular
> trait for a runner to have, only the most ruthless, cold-hearted bastards
> would view the death of 149 children that lightly. Have the corp offer a
> LARGE bounty on the characters, dead or alive, and have evryone, including
> contacts and friends trying to turn them in. This, if nothing else, will
> teach them a little compassion for innocents, or at least not to kill in the
> interest of self preservation...

Welllllll... hold the vitriol for a moment, we need to know some more
about the situation:

1. Did the runners know that there were 150 innocent children around?
2. Did they know that their actions would cause the deaths of these children?
3. Was there any other way for them to do their job?

In short, a summary of the run, please?


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:39:17 -0500 (EST)
>On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Sedah Drol wrote:
>
>> I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>> about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>> involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>> in a corp facility.
>
> In-campaign ramifications aside, I would *not* reduce the players'
>Karma award in any way, especially if the butchery of the children was in
>character. As pertains the the rabid discussion we had several months
>ago, Karma is not a measure of good or evil, but a gauge of experience.
>Even if it's out of character, if they succeeded, they should still get
>the success and/or survival karma from the run itself, they just won't
>get role-playing karma. I'll stop now before I get too heated...
>
>> Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
>> information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
>> relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
>> remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
>> question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
>> being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
>> it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
>> other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
>
> In my mind, the runners committed the cardinal sin not of killing
>innocents but of getting caught in the act. A "relatively good video" is
>enough to put their faces all over the evening news. Bad PR is as deadly
>for a runner as bad planning. Lots of people have suggested lots of good
>ideas as far as social backlash from such an event, so for the sake of
>brevity, I'll let this part go, suggesting only that you play the
>reactions of the populace at large as though it were real. People will
>be horrified, followed by downright angry, and they *will* act upon it.
>
>
I believe this is where you either decide to get a new group, or after
torturing these chars for a few weeks, kill them and let the players make
new ones,and hope they learned from their mistakes...:)


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 16
From: "Sedah Drol" <sedahdro@****.holli.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:57:47 +500
> > OH, yeah. This is just begging you, as teh wonderful and benign GM that you
> > are, to make their lives a living HELL, and I say you have evry reason to.
> > Even in the Shadowrun world, where morals aren't exactly the most popular
> > trait for a runner to have, only the most ruthless, cold-hearted bastards
> > would view the death of 149 children that lightly. Have the corp offer a
> > LARGE bounty on the characters, dead or alive, and have evryone, including
> > contacts and friends trying to turn them in. This, if nothing else, will
> > teach them a little compassion for innocents, or at least not to kill in the
> > interest of self preservation...
>
> Welllllll... hold the vitriol for a moment, we need to know some more
> about the situation:
>
> 1. Did the runners know that there were 150 innocent children around?

Yes, they were in the Genetech(TM) facility which at the time they
thought it was a private corp school, to retrieve a child that
their Johnson said was her son, but of course it wasn't. So they
ended up talking to every child looking for the kid. They found out
that the kid was moved to what they refered to as "the room" which
turned out to be a underground genetic research facility under the
school.

> 2. Did they know that their actions would cause the deaths of these children?

Let's see, when they shot up the cloning chambers and the ICC they
inadvertently set off the facilitie's "self-destruct", which it had
because of the very sensitive research that was going on in the
cloning labs. Which I announced to the players as an audible
countdown alarm. They had ample time to leave the building and
rescue the other children. Of course one of their comrads was
stunned unconscious and there target was also unconscious. Their
only thoughts were to get the hell out of dodge before anymore
security arrived.


> 3. Was there any other way for them to do their job?

They had the skills to discover the trigger mechanisms, so they could
have not set off the "self-destruct". They also could have evacuated
the children.


>
> In short, a summary of the run, please?

Female Johsnon from rival corp hires runners to extract a child that
she said was hers. She wanted child because husband wanted to
defect. Child was being held in private school ran by the corp.
Runner's legwork reveals to them that the building is allegedly
abandoned. Runners decide to scope out the building, find out that
their legwork was incorrect. Runners decide to raid the building,
Security gets caught off guard. Runners remove security. Runners
question Children. Runners make a more thorough search of building.
DocWagon arrives to help the "removed" security. Runners find
entrance to underground facility. Runners proceed on room by room
search, eliminating security. One runner gets mana bolted by mage in
ICC. Other Runners remove ICC threat. Conscious runners find
target. Runners destroy all research (which by the way surprise the
hell out of me, I figured they would take all research that they
could for loot, not these guys no "let's destroy everything")
initiating the automated "self-destruct" sequence. Runners here
countdown, carry their comrad an target out of building to vehicle
where rigger is waiting to roll out. Sqauter notices runners
carrying bodies. Squater calls Lone Star. Runners drive off.
Lonestar passes runners, notices that he passed them, proceeds to
pursue runners. Runners non-lethally remove Lonestar threat and
deliver child to Johnson. Child cries out that's not my mommy.
Runners get paid and leave. Runners see face of one of there
comrads on TV. GM hands out Karma. Players go home.

---Sedah Drol



---------
ATTN: Due to lack of Interest, tommorow has been cancelled.
---------
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 c++++>$ u+ P L+ E? W+>W+++ N o? k?
w+>w++++ O--- M-- V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ x++ R++>+++$
b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 17
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:17:11 +1000 (EST)
> > 2. Did they know that their actions would cause the deaths of these children?
>
> Let's see, when they shot up the cloning chambers and the ICC they
> inadvertently set off the facilitie's "self-destruct", which it had
> because of the very sensitive research that was going on in the
> cloning labs. Which I announced to the players as an audible
> countdown alarm. They had ample time to leave the building and
> rescue the other children. Of course one of their comrads was
> stunned unconscious and there target was also unconscious. Their
> only thoughts were to get the hell out of dodge before anymore
> security arrived.

Hmmm... did they have ample time to rescue the children AS WELL AS
getting their team member and their target out?

> > In short, a summary of the run, please?

<snip>

> target. Runners destroy all research (which by the way surprise the
> hell out of me, I figured they would take all research that they
> could for loot, not these guys no "let's destroy everything")

In which case they're silly, but let's continue...

> initiating the automated "self-destruct" sequence. Runners here
> countdown, carry their comrad an target out of building to vehicle
> where rigger is waiting to roll out. Sqauter notices runners
> carrying bodies. Squater calls Lone Star. Runners drive off.
> Lonestar passes runners, notices that he passed them, proceeds to
> pursue runners. Runners non-lethally remove Lonestar threat and
> deliver child to Johnson. Child cries out that's not my mommy.
> Runners get paid and leave. Runners see face of one of there
> comrads on TV. GM hands out Karma. Players go home.

Let's face it, if a corp puts an autodestruct on a building which houses
150 children, it's not ENTIRELY the runners' fault, is it?




Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:57:11 +0100
In article <199609242326.SAA08459@*********.holli.com>, Sedah Drol
<sedahdro@****.holli.com> writes
>I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>in a corp facility. Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any
>information leading to the capture of said PCs, whom they had a
>relatively good video of. I asked the players if they felt any
>remorse whatsoever about the deaths. And they said "No." My
>question is should I as a GM make their lives a living hell? I mean
>being somewhat resposible for the deaths of a 149 children, wouldn't
>it ruin their street reputations for getting jobs? What would you
>other GM's do, if this type of situation came up in your campaign?
>Curios,
>---Sedah Drol
>

Not as easy to answer as it looks. I would normally say make their
lives hell, but.... without knowing all the mitigating factors...
hmmm.

A while back I had a similar'ish situation with a munchkin Shaman who
specialised in Acid spells, he decided during one drive by shooting to
deal with the perps vehicle by casting an acid cloud and a couple of
other spells at it, the vehicle reacted badly to this influx of
corrosive, and crashed into a few parked cars nearby, turned over, and
slid back into the road in the path of an oncoming bus, one thing led to
another and things got a little messy. Three people saw him cast the
spell, two players, and one runner from a nearby bar. The players
refused to associate any longer with the character, and the other runner
had a word with a couple of chummers, a bit later, Sunstar and Tuesday
paid him a little visit, the Shaman hurled himself out of a fifth story
window, before the others even got to him, (he saw them coming and
figured he was in trouble).

Corp Sec is occassionally responsible for collateral damage, as are Lone
Star, Knight Errant, and even Doc Wagon (though rarely). How do they
deal with this situation. By large pay off's, quoting rights and
regulations, all sorts of means. However, if the PCs deliberately
caused the problem it would be a different matter, but you say
*indirectly*, how indirectly, exactly.

There may be reason for leeway here.

TTYL
Pete
--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 19
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:38:50 -0500 (EST)
>> 1. Did the runners know that there were 150 innocent children around?
>
>Yes, they were in the Genetech(TM) facility which at the time they
>thought it was a private corp school, to retrieve a child that
>their Johnson said was her son, but of course it wasn't. So they
>ended up talking to every child looking for the kid. They found out
>that the kid was moved to what they refered to as "the room" which
>turned out to be a underground genetic research facility under the
>school.
>
Yeah, I'd say they knew there were lots of kids there...

>> 2. Did they know that their actions would cause the deaths of these children?
>
>Let's see, when they shot up the cloning chambers and the ICC they
>inadvertently set off the facilitie's "self-destruct", which it had
>because of the very sensitive research that was going on in the
>cloning labs. Which I announced to the players as an audible
>countdown alarm. They had ample time to leave the building and
>rescue the other children. Of course one of their comrads was
>stunned unconscious and there target was also unconscious. Their
>only thoughts were to get the hell out of dodge before anymore
>security arrived.
>
>

Granted, they didn't cause the deaths on purpose, but let's face it, they
didn't even try. The only think they were concerned about was saving their
own worthless hids.

>> 3. Was there any other way for them to do their job?
>
>They had the skills to discover the trigger mechanisms, so they could
>have not set off the "self-destruct". They also could have evacuated
>the children.
>
>

There's almost ALWAYS another way to get a job done... Unfortunately, Gun
play and large explosions are a runners favorite way to solve a problem.

>>
>> In short, a summary of the run, please?
>
>Female Johsnon from rival corp hires runners to extract a child that
>she said was hers. She wanted child because husband wanted to
>defect. Child was being held in private school ran by the corp.
>Runner's legwork reveals to them that the building is allegedly
>abandoned. Runners decide to scope out the building, find out that
>their legwork was incorrect. Runners decide to raid the building,
>Security gets caught off guard. Runners remove security. Runners
>question Children. Runners make a more thorough search of building.
>DocWagon arrives to help the "removed" security. Runners find
>entrance to underground facility. Runners proceed on room by room
>search, eliminating security. One runner gets mana bolted by mage in
>ICC. Other Runners remove ICC threat. Conscious runners find
>target. Runners destroy all research (which by the way surprise the
>hell out of me, I figured they would take all research that they
>could for loot, not these guys no "let's destroy everything")
>initiating the automated "self-destruct" sequence. Runners here
>countdown, carry their comrad an target out of building to vehicle
>where rigger is waiting to roll out. Sqauter notices runners
>carrying bodies. Squater calls Lone Star. Runners drive off.
>Lonestar passes runners, notices that he passed them, proceeds to
>pursue runners. Runners non-lethally remove Lonestar threat and
>deliver child to Johnson. Child cries out that's not my mommy.
>Runners get paid and leave. Runners see face of one of there
>comrads on TV. GM hands out Karma. Players go home.
>
This sounds vaguely familiar. Was this based on a module? Can't think of
the name of the one we went through, but it involved kidnapping a kid from a
corp in a very similar manner.

Ah, well, I'll shut up now...:)


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 20
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:40:11 +0100
In message <32497A5C.2FFB@*******.com>, Loki <loki@*******.com> writes
>I've even awarded neagtive karma for killing innocents. It definitely
>serves to make the Player's think as the erase their Good Karma off
>their chracter sheet and write in a lower number without raising some
>stat or putting the amount into team karma...

Would it matter to the character? If it did, then fine. Some of my PCs
would agonise about a noncombatant wounded or killed, and Karma
penalties would be entirely appropriate.

Another wouldn't give a damn, considering "innocents" to be either
"unpeople" that don't really exist, or just accepting "collateral
casualties" as a part of the run.

I don't like Karma being used to enforce any particular code, though.
It's a measure of how well the character is played. If the character's a
totally evil scumbag and well-roleplayed as such, reward him with Karma.

He'll probably need it when the team turns on him for getting them in
too much trouble... Real-world consequence is a better mechanic than
"bad person, bad Karma".

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:47:05 -0700
GRANITE wrote:
>
> Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> > >Mind you the corp is offering a reward for any information leading to the
> > capture of >said PCs, whom they had a relatively good video of.
>
> Here..I will make it easy on you..I will put out the contract on them..
> The corporation in question contacted the Security division of the Archangel
> Corporation..Archangel Security has assigned a Beta Team to acquire the group
> responsible for the deaths of all those children..Archangel has teams rated
> Alpha through Omega..Alpha being the best most reliable operatives..Each team
> is responsible for it's own gear..However, as they go up in ranking they get
> substantial discounts on gear and services..So a Beta team should be
> extremely competent and well armed..Oh yea..Archangel is housed in a 6 story
> coorperate building that houses all of it's operatives who wish to live there
> as well as facilities..AA is rumored to be a front for one of the biggest
> Shadowrunning organizations around...If you want me to provide a complete
> team I will..I suggest you use one of your own creation..I am likely to
> overpower them...The terms of the contract with Archangel Security are as
> follows:
> 1] Bounty 80,000 NY per head of the group responsible.
> 2] Bodies may be turned in for bounty as well [not required].
> 3] The entire group must be accounted for.
> 4] Collateral damage must be kept to a minimum.
> 5] A bonus will be awarded of 40,000 NY per head if all are turned in within
> 3 weeks.
> There..That should just about do it..The Corp in question had all these kids
> in one of their areas..What for?? Of course it doesn't matter as the Run..
> Operatives at Archangel as consumate professionals..IF there is some hanky
> panky going on it will come out and Archangel may exact its own punishment on
> whoever tarnishes their reputation...

I'm sure I could come up with stats for the operatives myself, Granite.
However, I'm curious to see the differences you'd assign to say a Gamma
runner versus a Beta...


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 22
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:40:28 -0700
Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
> In message <32497A5C.2FFB@*******.com>, Loki <loki@*******.com> writes
> >I've even awarded neagtive karma for killing innocents. It definitely
> >serves to make the Player's think as the erase their Good Karma off
> >their chracter sheet and write in a lower number without raising some
> >stat or putting the amount into team karma...
>
> Would it matter to the character? If it did, then fine. Some of my PCs
> would agonise about a noncombatant wounded or killed, and Karma
> penalties would be entirely appropriate.
>
> Another wouldn't give a damn, considering "innocents" to be either
> "unpeople" that don't really exist, or just accepting "collateral
> casualties" as a part of the run.
>
> I don't like Karma being used to enforce any particular code, though.
> It's a measure of how well the character is played. If the character's a
> totally evil scumbag and well-roleplayed as such, reward him with Karma.
>
> He'll probably need it when the team turns on him for getting them in
> too much trouble... Real-world consequence is a better mechanic than
> "bad person, bad Karma".

I can see your point, the negative Karma I've awarded has mainly been
for a character that is primarily played as a "good guy" champion of the
underdog and then out-of -the blue kills someone defenseless and just
standing-by.

If the character were a cold-hearted pit of darkness and did the same
thing in character they probably would deserve a bonus of karma for
role-playing well.

Just never had the son-of-sam type character survive in my group long
when you tend to have a Dog Shaman or Sun Druid representing the side of
light as well...

Your point is well made though, and I'm having to look at these kind of
reprcussions as my team was hired by Kyle Morgan to deliver a
bio-warfare strain of Polio back to Renraku who supposedly had been
designing it in mutual contract with the UCAS military (mind you no one
is really vaccinated for this any longer in 2054).

They released it in the Renraku Mall fire sprinklers, figuring exposure
to 1,200 or so shoppers which would prompt a vaccine and render the
virus useless in warfare (good intentions on their part). Three weeks
later media is counting an outbreak of 3,800+ individuals. All exposure
has been tracked to an area 4 kilometers in radius within and about the
arcology (strange for a self-sufficient architecture like Renraku).
Hospitals and clinics are overflowing, field clinics and the like are
having to be setup in available structures.

Four major terrorist organizations are claiming responsibilityt. Renraku
stock has dropped 14 points in three weeks, and one of their contacts
with a hobby in stocks has mentioned the frightening fact of a mega-corp
take over. Now Kyle did hire the team to make the delviery...

Muhahahahaha!

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 23
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:05:10 +0000
On 25 Sep 96 at 11:30, Loki wrote:
[kid-killings "runners" and consequences]
> I've even awarded neagtive karma for killing innocents. It definitely
> serves to make the Player's think as the erase their Good Karma off
> their chracter sheet and write in a lower number without raising some
> stat or putting the amount into team karma...

Nope, no negative Karma. As someone (hm... was it Marc?) aleady pointed out,
Karma can't be used to measure morals. Is it really better to shoot a cop then
a kid? Why?
I'd run em through hell, then back, then through Chicago and back, whatever
mean you can do, and would _not_ give them the fat karma reward for rescuing
the kids (like *calculate* "Did this, 2 pnts, did not recue kids, no 10
points, survived, 1 point ... makes 3 points altogether!")

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 24
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (x)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:16:16 -0600 (CST)
>I recently started a campaign, after being away from the game for
>about a year (not by choice mine you). And the PC's were indirectly
>involved with the death of 149 "innocent" children being held
>in a corp facility.


Bad Karma anyone?


Ahzmandius the Annoyiiiing ;)
Message no. 25
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:54:39 -0500 (EST)
<snip reply about neg karma>
>I can see your point, the negative Karma I've awarded has mainly been
>for a character that is primarily played as a "good guy" champion of the
>underdog and then out-of -the blue kills someone defenseless and just
>standing-by.
>
>If the character were a cold-hearted pit of darkness and did the same
>thing in character they probably would deserve a bonus of karma for
>role-playing well.
>
>Just never had the son-of-sam type character survive in my group long
>when you tend to have a Dog Shaman or Sun Druid representing the side of
>light as well...
>

In general, it's been my experiene taht most character tend to either be
"good" guys, maybe not Luke Skywalker hero types, buthonorable intheir own
way,or nuetral, and somewhat merenary. Even then, the neutrals wouldn't
killkids. They tend to try to leave non-combatants out of things, but will
kill anyone involverd with impunity.

I agree that someone playing a blak hearted evil murderer wouldn't get neg
karma, but those characters are very rare and don't usually last long in
most games...:)

>Your point is well made though, and I'm having to look at these kind of
>reprcussions as my team was hired by Kyle Morgan to deliver a
>bio-warfare strain of Polio back to Renraku who supposedly had been
>designing it in mutual contract with the UCAS military (mind you no one
>is really vaccinated for this any longer in 2054).
>

True, they barely vacinate for it today (I'm not...)
Message no. 26
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:12:59 -0500 (EST)
>I'd run em through hell, then back, then through Chicago and back,

You mean Chicago isn't hell? Boy, then I never want to go to hell, Chicago
was bad enough...:)

<and we keep going BACK there...>


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 27
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:39:09 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> Let's face it, if a corp puts an autodestruct on a building which houses
> 150 children, it's not ENTIRELY the runners' fault, is it?

Yeah, but they don't have to tell the press that. And since the
building was fronted as a private school, it basically looks like a
terrorist attack on a group of innocent civilians. If the corp wants
payback, that's how they'll handle it.
Now granted, the corp may have actually not minded the children
getting blown up along with the facility (fewer loose ends), and had they
been rescued, the children may have been quietly disposed of at some
later date. However, it is most likely that the company will resent the
destruction of their multi-gajillion nuyen institution. If so, the
"baby-killing terorists" is the tack they'll use to get at the PC's,
simply because it's effective.
And once the police catch the players and turn them over to the
corp (providing its a megacorp and an extradition treaty is in place),
the corp will probably ask the party some very pointed questions about
where the one surviving child was taken. Remember, the Johnson wanted
the kid for a reason, so Genetech probably does too.

Marc
Message no. 28
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:33:47 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.960925135832.29128D-100000@******.engin.umich.
edu>, Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu> writes
> In-campaign ramifications aside, I would *not* reduce the players'
>Karma award in any way, especially if the butchery of the children was in
>character.

<heh heh> I remember playing one of the Harlequin modules, the one where
the job is to wipe out the Elven terrorists. There was a Karma penalty
for accidentally killing a little girl in the scenario.

I got around it by pointing out that I'd known the girl was in the room,
and didn't care, there was also one of my targets in the room. Hence a
couple of hand grenades and follow up with autofire.

> As pertains the the rabid discussion we had several months
>ago, Karma is not a measure of good or evil, but a gauge of experience.
>Even if it's out of character, if they succeeded, they should still get
>the success and/or survival karma from the run itself, they just won't
>get role-playing karma. I'll stop now before I get too heated...

Role-playing a homicidal psychopath is an interesting experience.
Killing someone for eating popcorn too loudly in a cinema was one
example of role-playing karma... when asked to reduce the volume, the
guy ate louder instead and said "Go on, bitch, make me stop..." So my PC
did. "Limited force" wasn't really in her vocabulary, she shot him
through the head with an Ares Viper. Luckily there weren't many people
in the cinema :)

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 29
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:03:39 -0500 (EST)
This whole run sounds a lot like the Oklahoma bombing.
Building full of "innocent" kids being experimented on by the evil corp.
I may have to use this concept, especially since Bull has kids! :-)
<Eeeeeeevilllll grin!>
Message no. 30
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:04:33 -0500 (EST)
><heh heh> I remember playing one of the Harlequin modules, the one where
>the job is to wipe out the Elven terrorists. There was a Karma penalty
>for accidentally killing a little girl in the scenario.
>
Oh, the little girl. That was a bad one. We tried to have one of our
members, Johnny, infiltrate the group. Well, as an initiation, they gave
Johnny a gun, similar to a 9mm (don't remember which one) and told him to
shoot the girl. Johnny figures that it's just a test, so he goes over to
the girl, pulls the trigger, nothing happens... He smiles,figures he was
right about it being just a test and pulls the trigger a couple more times.
Bang, Bang. Two bullets into the poor girl. I was listening over a head
phone, and I was shocked, as was Johnny. He'd forgotten to chamber the
first round, that's why it hadn't fired.

That was probably our biggest frag up ever, and was definately the last
time we ever took a wetwork job...

Ouch...



#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 31
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:18:07 -0500 (EST)
>This whole run sounds a lot like the Oklahoma bombing.
>Building full of "innocent" kids being experimented on by the evil corp.
>I may have to use this concept, especially since Bull has kids! :-)
><Eeeeeeevilllll grin!>
>
>
Stop that! Stop that right now!


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 32
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:12:18 +0100
In article <199609261812.NAA06195@***.ncweb.com>, Steven Ratkovich
<chaos@*****.com> writes
>>I'd run em through hell, then back, then through Chicago and back,
>
>You mean Chicago isn't hell? Boy, then I never want to go to hell, Chicago
>was bad enough...:)
>
Now Bull, you should know Chicago isn't hell, it's a cakewalk. Most of
the bugs are in stasis ;-) there are only a very few that aren't, the
biggest threat to a character in Chicago is injury sustained by tripping
over rubble :-)

Just ask my players. They know :-)

><and we keep going BACK there...>
And, why not, it's such a wonderful family atmosphere. Where everybody
wants you for something, and others for less, but more.

And as for those funny little tunnels under the ground, and the large
decorative layered pagodas on the towers, looks like someone (THEY?)
have decided to rebuild, but in a more decorative fashion. :-)

Chicago, no problem..... :-0

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 33
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:43:55 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 16:04/26 Sep 96...

> Oh, the little girl. That was a bad one. We tried to have one of our
> members, Johnny, infiltrate the group. Well, as an initiation, they gave
> Johnny a gun, similar to a 9mm (don't remember which one) and told him to
> shoot the girl. Johnny figures that it's just a test, so he goes over to
> the girl, pulls the trigger, nothing happens... He smiles,figures he was
> right about it being just a test and pulls the trigger a couple more times.
> Bang, Bang. Two bullets into the poor girl. I was listening over a head
> phone, and I was shocked, as was Johnny. He'd forgotten to chamber the
> first round, that's why it hadn't fired.

Well, I don't want to bring in too much realism, or another guns debate,
but that would only work with a revolver. No round chambered in a
semi-automatic pistol = it won't fire, no matter how often you pull the
trigger. (Unless somebody's built a pistol firing from an open bolt that
I don't know about, and even then it'd fire first time round.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I have another stupid question.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:04:57 +0000
On 26 Sep 96 at 13:12, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
> >I'd run em through hell, then back, then through Chicago and back,
>
> You mean Chicago isn't hell? Boy, then I never want to go to hell, Chicago
> was bad enough...:)
Oh, sure Chicago is hell. My players will notice soon enough (we are still
March 55... but closing in :-). But I thought the way four times through hell
a bit boring, and even though I am cruel sometimes, I try not to be boring. So
I thre in Chicago as... well, other kind of hell...

> <and we keep going BACK there...>
Who was your GM? Is he on the list? May I have a word with him how he does
it???
Oh, wait, it was that Mantis Spirit, right... well, then...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | "Hate is a force of|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* |back turned" - Terry|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Pratchett-Masquerade|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 35
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:03:01 -0500 (EST)
>On 26 Sep 96 at 13:12, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
>> >I'd run em through hell, then back, then through Chicago and back,
>>
>> You mean Chicago isn't hell? Boy, then I never want to go to hell, Chicago
>> was bad enough...:)
>Oh, sure Chicago is hell. My players will notice soon enough (we are still
>March 55... but closing in :-). But I thought the way four times through hell
>a bit boring, and even though I am cruel sometimes, I try not to be boring. So
>I thre in Chicago as... well, other kind of hell...
>

Have fun...:) It's a blast if played right...:)

>> <and we keep going BACK there...>
>Who was your GM? Is he on the list? May I have a word with him how he does
>it???
>Oh, wait, it was that Mantis Spirit, right... well, then...
>
> Sascha
>
Steven A Tinner, GM B*****d extrordinaire... Talk to him, and while you're
at it, beat him...:)


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 36
From: "Sedah Drol" <sedahdro@****.holli.com>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:10:34 +500
> Hmmm... did they have ample time to rescue the children AS WELL AS
> getting their team member and their target out?

Yes, I believe they had.


> Let's face it, if a corp puts an autodestruct on a building which houses
> 150 children, it's not ENTIRELY the runners' fault, is it?

No, it's not entirely the runners fault that's why I said they were
"indirectly" involved. The Corp knows it and the runners know it,
but the general public don't.

--Sedah Drol
---------
ATTN: Due to lack of Interest, tommorow has been cancelled.
---------
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 c++++>$ u+ P L+ E? W+>W+++ N o? k?
w+>w++++ O--- M-- V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ x++ R++>+++$
b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 37
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:22:50 +1000 (EST)
> Now Bull, you should know Chicago isn't hell, it's a cakewalk. Most of
> the bugs are in stasis ;-) there are only a very few that aren't, the
> biggest threat to a character in Chicago is injury sustained by tripping
> over rubble :-)
>
> Just ask my players. They know :-)
>
> ><and we keep going BACK there...>
> And, why not, it's such a wonderful family atmosphere. Where everybody
> wants you for something, and others for less, but more.
>
> And as for those funny little tunnels under the ground, and the large
> decorative layered pagodas on the towers, looks like someone (THEY?)
> have decided to rebuild, but in a more decorative fashion. :-)
>
> Chicago, no problem..... :-0

You're EVIL! *grin* Very very evil! *puts his hands over his GM's
eyes* No, Joker, we are NOT going back... :P

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 38
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:44:03 -0500 (EST)
>> <and we keep going BACK there...>
>Who was your GM? Is he on the list? May I have a word with him how he does
>it???
>Oh, wait, it was that Mantis Spirit, right... well, then...

That's right.
I figured that a Mantis Spirit, a 4th level coyote shaman initiate, and
Harlequin should be able to get into or out of a liitle burg like Chicago
without too much trouble. :-)

The main mode of transportation has been spirit assisted.
Johnny 99 summons a HUGE lake spirit, and they travel from Lake Erie to Lake
Michigan.
Spirits move fast enough that the trip takes very little time, and sneaks
them in under water.
I even had some UCAS mini-attack subs try to interfere once, but a little
dose of accident and alienation kept them at bay.

Basicaly, it suited the game's purpose for them to get in and out, so I
allowed it.
To quote someone famous "The play's the thing . . ." :-)



ADDITION TO STEVE TINNER'S FAMOUS LAST WORDS:
"Hey...that bird's flying straight at the window...."
"Come and look at this guys! Don't worry...he won't get through..."


With many thanks to Hamish, the death by rhino Scot
Message no. 39
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 03:03:58 +0100
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960928112157.24581A-100000@*****.student.gu.ed
u.au>, Guardian <s777317@*******.gu.edu.au> writes
>> Now Bull, you should know Chicago isn't hell, it's a cakewalk. Most of
>> the bugs are in stasis ;-) there are only a very few that aren't, the
>> biggest threat to a character in Chicago is injury sustained by tripping
>> over rubble :-)
>>
>> Just ask my players. They know :-)
>>
>> ><and we keep going BACK there...>
>> And, why not, it's such a wonderful family atmosphere. Where everybody
>> wants you for something, and others for less, but more.
>>
>> And as for those funny little tunnels under the ground, and the large
>> decorative layered pagodas on the towers, looks like someone (THEY?)
>> have decided to rebuild, but in a more decorative fashion. :-)
>>
>> Chicago, no problem..... :-0
>
>You're EVIL! *grin* Very very evil! *puts his hands over his GM's
>eyes* No, Joker, we are NOT going back... :P

I resemble that remark.... I'm *not* evil, I was very considerate to my
players, they had to go back five times, gradually completing the
targets that had been set for them before they met any bugs, and those
were only little ones :-) though there were an awful lot of them. From
what I can gather literally hundreds of characters have died and
suffered horribly in Chicago. Mine didn't, for once, well, not until
the end anyway. :-)

The biggest threat to the players up unitl the end were the gangs
controlled by the Warlords, the players had to cross four controlled
territories before they finished - but then I'm a great fan of Escape
from New York, so I guess I used it to my advantage. Then these
*slightly* larger than normal :-) things with segmented bodies and
multiple legs and armoured carapaces turned up, tweren't nuthin' t'do
wit me, I'm innocent. The players deliberately went into that building
with the wasp nest on top and the beetles below.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"

We do here. :-)

--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 40
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:48:51 +0100
Pete Sims said on 3:03/28 Sep 96...

> >"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
>
> We do here. :-)

I wish they did here... (Nothing personal, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 41
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:49:06 +1000 (EST)
> > Let's face it, if a corp puts an autodestruct on a building which houses
> > 150 children, it's not ENTIRELY the runners' fault, is it?
>
> No, it's not entirely the runners fault that's why I said they were
> "indirectly" involved. The Corp knows it and the runners know it,
> but the general public don't.
>
I beleive that comes under the term 'regretable collateral damage'
Personally I'd judge the PC's motives more than the result. If you had
'em running scared it's perfectly justifiable that they neglected to
rescue the kids.

I missed bits and pieces of the thread, so I'm not sure whether you're
down on the team personally (as a person) or whether the Corp in question is
irate (which is roleplaying)

I hate to say it, but if I was in a building that was going to blow
itself to bits, (in the near indeterminate future) I wouldn't give two frags
about a bunch of kids I didn't know if it made it likely that I was going
to die. I'd have concerns for my friends but that's all.

Heroic roleplaying is all well and good, but in every place but
Hollywood, the idiot who tries to defuse the ticking bomb usually gets
smeared across the landscape.

Apologies if I offended anyone.

Bleach
Message no. 42
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 03:01:33 -0700
Well..Now that we all know a WHOLE lot more than just these guys are
heartless baby killers..hmmm shades of VN as well as our reactions
hmmm...Anyway..I would say they kinda freaked and ran..While there isn't
all that much wrong with this reaction..Their reps should suffer greatly
for it..and there is the matter of the good footage of them leaving
children [no matter their age] to die in an explosion..Hmmm..and of
course the contract with ArchAngel [assuming you use that angle]..As for
AA They could still send run.. Agents after them.. However *when* AA
found out about the deception..AA *will* raze the corp in every sense of
the word...All in all I would no longer blame your runners with the
exception of no remorse for the innocents deaths..they were preventable
and the runners know it..You should remind your players that even the
lowest of the low think poorly about those who harm women and
children..Don't ask me why be it is a fact I have observed time and again
..One guy ended up with a fractured skull from a single punch over
harming a child..


--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 43
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 03:21:14 -0700
Loki wrote:
> I'm sure I could come up with stats for the operatives myself, Granite.
> However, I'm curious to see the differences you'd assign to say a Gamma
> runner versus a Beta...

Well Let's see..An Omega team would consist of any archtype you could find in
any of the books..Basically a beginner character..However..They would have to
have established a reputation..So that means a couple of adventures that went
off more or less smoothly..As for Alpha well there are a lot of letters
between Alpha and Omega..Now not all of them are for street operatives..there
are those in weapons research and others doing completely different
things..As for the difference in a Beta and a Gamma..There would be
differences..mostly in experiance and possibly specialized gear..But since
they are only a step away from each other actual diffs would be small..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 44
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:00:19 +1000 (EST)
> > Let's face it, if a corp puts an autodestruct on a building which houses
> > 150 children, it's not ENTIRELY the runners' fault, is it?
>
> Yeah, but they don't have to tell the press that. And since the
> building was fronted as a private school, it basically looks like a
> terrorist attack on a group of innocent civilians. If the corp wants
> payback, that's how they'll handle it.

<snip>

Oh, I understand that, but the few original posts on the subject were
pretty vitriolic at the runners for doing something that was, maybe, not
quite so horrible as it seemed. Mind you, I wasn't saying ANYTHING about
how the dozy Shadowrun public would perceive it.... :)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 45
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 17:12:36 +1000 (EST)
> things..As for the difference in a Beta and a Gamma..There would be
> differences..mostly in experiance and possibly specialized gear..But since
> they are only a step away from each other actual diffs would be small..

Maybe the difference might just be "luck", if runners have such a thing.
Team "blah" was involved in a contract that, for once, went absolutely
perfectly. AA looks at this and goes "Great, well, you guys did real
good, so we'll promote you from [say] an Eta team to an Epsilon team, and
we'll give you more toys, too"

Whereas Team "Whatsit", through no real fault of their own, got into a
job that got totally hosed. "Gee, people, sorry, but your chances of EVER
getting a promotion are slightly less than zero"

Yet, perhaps, the people from Team Blah and Team Whatsit are technically
equally good.

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 46
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: PC's Morality
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:56:46 -0700
The Jestyr wrote:
> Maybe the difference might just be "luck", if runners have such a thing.


I perfer to call it skill..But it does pretty much boil down to the same
thing..The team with the better reputation gets the promotion..

> Whereas Team "Whatsit", through no real fault of their own, got into a
> job that got totally hosed. "Gee, people, sorry, but your chances of EVER
> getting a promotion are slightly less than zero"
>

Actually, this team would be given its one and only warning and placed on
skut details until they prove they can handle more responsible jobs..If they
don;t shape up they are *removed* from the AA agent lists...On a more
permenant basis..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer

Further Reading

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