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From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	PhysAd and extra Power Points (was: Big Bag O' Questions(3))
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:51:50 +0200

Message no. 1 Hail Runners,

I've been following the Big Bag o' Questions thread and I saw the houserule
of letting a PhysAd choose Priority A (or 4 building points in the
sum-to-ten-system) for magic to give him more Power Points. Now, if you
would want to do this, why not give him the option, like full mages/shamans
and aspected mages/shamans to buy extra Power (Force/Spell/Whatever) Points
at a rate of 25,000Y each. You could limit him/her at, let say, twice his
magic rating.
I know that when a mage/shaman buys the same points, that they are worth 1
Karma point, so effectively a PhysAd buys 20 karma points for the same
money. But I think PhysAd's and the 20-karma-a-power-point-rule is shite
anyway. So there!

Any thoughts.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."

From:	Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject:	PhysAd and extra Power Points (was: Big Bag O' Questions(3))
Date:	Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:29:12 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 2 --- Dennis Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl> wrote:
> Hail Runners,
>
> I've been following the Big Bag o' Questions thread
> and I saw the houserule
> of letting a PhysAd choose Priority A (or 4 building
> points in the
> sum-to-ten-system) for magic to give him more Power
> Points. Now, if you
> would want to do this, why not give him the option,
> like full mages/shamans
> and aspected mages/shamans to buy extra Power
> (Force/Spell/Whatever) Points
> at a rate of 25,000Y each. You could limit him/her
> at, let say, twice his
> magic rating.
> I know that when a mage/shaman buys the same points,
> that they are worth 1
> Karma point, so effectively a PhysAd buys 20 karma
> points for the same
> money. But I think PhysAd's and the
> 20-karma-a-power-point-rule is shite
> anyway. So there!

I agree with you, but just keep in mind to not
let the PA get more powerful than other party
members. Hey its your game and do what you
want, its about having fun, so just discuss
with the other party members and go from there.
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From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	PhysAd and extra Power Points (was: Big Bag O' Questions(3))
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:04:44 -0500

Message no. 3 :I've been following the Big Bag o' Questions thread and I saw the houserule
:of letting a PhysAd choose Priority A (or 4 building points in the
:sum-to-ten-system) for magic to give him more Power Points. Now, if you
:would want to do this, why not give him the option, like full mages/shamans
:and aspected mages/shamans to buy extra Power (Force/Spell/Whatever) Points
:at a rate of 25,000Y each. You could limit him/her at, let say, twice his
:magic rating.

Force points are (more or less) equivalent to karma points. You spend
them as such to "learn" starting spells and bond foci (and maybe on bound
spirits).
Power Points cost 20 karma. Threfore, a power point "should" cost
500,000¥ if you allowed that kind of thing.

:I know that when a mage/shaman buys the same points, that they are worth 1
:Karma point, so effectively a PhysAd buys 20 karma points for the same
:money. But I think PhysAd's and the 20-karma-a-power-point-rule is shite
:anyway. So there!

:Any thoughts.

A power point is sure as shit worth more than a force point, and
definately worth more than 25,000¥. I don't think you should let folks get
to many extra of them in any case (at character creation). An adept with 12
power points and 850,000¥ left to spend is a bit much, I think.
I don't see why you badmouth the 20 karma / power point cost. Its
actually pretty genrous. For example, raising a physical attributte from 5
to 7 costs a human 33 karma points, but you can do the same with just one
Power Point.
I personally don't see why people want "more effective" adepts. SR3
adepts seem pretty butch to me, easily able to hold thier own as a good
character option.

Mongoose

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	PhysAd and extra Power Points (was: Big Bag O' Questions(3))
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:09:05 +0200

Message no. 4 Mongoose wrote with infinite wisdom:
> A power point is sure as shit worth more than a force point, and
> definately worth more than 25,000¥. I don't think you should let folks
get
> to many extra of them in any case (at character creation). An adept with
12
> power points and 850,000¥ left to spend is a bit much, I think.

Power points are worth more than force points, that for sure. And 25,000Y is
not enough for a power point, I was thinking more along the lines of
100,000Y per power point. I know that would make it around 4 force
points/karma points worth, so about 5 times to little. However, to limit an
adept to starting with 1.5 or maybe 2 times his magic rating worth of power
points limits them enough.

> I don't see why you badmouth the 20 karma / power point cost. Its
> actually pretty genrous. For example, raising a physical attributte from
5
> to 7 costs a human 33 karma points, but you can do the same with just one
> Power Point.

Yes,...one power point is 20 karma. However, when a Streetsamurai is
upgrading (s)he uses money (big guns, cyberware, bioware) and karma
(skills). When a mage is upgrading (s)he uses karma (spells, skills) and the
karma used for spells is the same 1 - 1 rate as with skills. So they can be
seen as the same.
A PA, however, can upgrade using karma for powers at a 1 - 20 ratio, and
then he should find the karma to upgrade his skills. Somewhere I have the
feeling, and this could only be a feeling, that (s)he is going to lag
behind.

> I personally don't see why people want "more effective" adepts. SR3
> adepts seem pretty butch to me, easily able to hold thier own as a good
> character option.

I think they can hold their own later on in the game, when people are more
settled in their characters and have some karma to back their characters up.
However, when you compare it with the spells of a full mage for instance,
they don't match up in the beginning. A full mage has at least 25 force
points to use at character creation. If you want that could be 4 or 5 maxed
out spells (4 spells of force 6, or 5 spells of 5), pretty impressive I
should say. And then the mage still has the option of buying new force
points with nuyen.
I just think that when a PA starts play, he could, with 6 power points (PA's
maximum), have 1 maxed out power (for instance pain resistance) and some
toys like improved senses, mystic armor or something. I just think there
should be the option for a PA to buy power points with nuyen during
character creation. How this should be done, the amount of nuyen per power
point, or the question where the limit should lie, is the reason why I seek
guidance from the Great Collective(tm) of the mailing list.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	PhysAd and extra Power Points (was: Big Bag O' Questions(3))
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:29:04 -0500

Message no. 5 :Yes,...one power point is 20 karma. However, when a Streetsamurai is
:upgrading (s)he uses money (big guns, cyberware, bioware) and karma
:(skills). When a mage is upgrading (s)he uses karma (spells, skills) and
the
:karma used for spells is the same 1 - 1 rate as with skills. So they can be
:seen as the same.
:A PA, however, can upgrade using karma for powers at a 1 - 20 ratio, and
:then he should find the karma to upgrade his skills. Somewhere I have the
:feeling, and this could only be a feeling, that (s)he is going to lag
:behind.

In a rather long campaign, we only had 1 example of an bioware or
cyberware upgrade- a character with minimal implants got Boosted Reflexes 3,
and saved on surgery costs by buying a Biotech / Surgery skillsoft so
another character could do the work.
This was not really a cash poor campaign. I don't know if its typical,
but I just don't see really signifigant upgrades happening often enough to
justify the argument that adepts are at a disadvantage. Besides, if
there's enough cash for the samurai to afford signinifgantly helpful new
implants to replace hios old, there is enough that the adept can afford
low-impact but helpful implants. People are loath to loose magic, but it
sometimes offers an adept a dramatic edge to get a little bit of cyber ot
bioware.

:> I personally don't see why people want "more effective" adepts. SR3
:> adepts seem pretty butch to me, easily able to hold thier own as a good
:> character option.
:
:I think they can hold their own later on in the game, when people are more
:settled in their characters and have some karma to back their characters
up.
:However, when you compare it with the spells of a full mage for instance,
:they don't match up in the beginning. A full mage has at least 25 force
:points to use at character creation. If you want that could be 4 or 5 maxed
:out spells (4 spells of force 6, or 5 spells of 5), pretty impressive I
:should say. And then the mage still has the option of buying new force
:points with nuyen.

I was specifiaclly reffering to starting characters.
I just made a mage, and he was pretty danm ineffective in a straight
up combat compared to the parties 2 new adepts. Mostly because he was
really
slow, and spent the first two turns (he got 1 action per) turning invisible
and
runing for cover. Then when I used "control thoughts" on a baddy, my
teamates shot him- nice work, guys...
Admitedly, I was one of the very few who did not get shot, and several
others nearly died, and there were reasons I did not cut loose with big-kill
spells (I made a lot of all my spells area effect, and the fight was close
quarters)- but mages do seem more or less to have as much trouble at
character creation as everybody else.

:I just think that when a PA starts play, he could, with 6 power points
(PA's
:maximum), have 1 maxed out power (for instance pain resistance) and some
:toys like improved senses, mystic armor or something. I just think there
:should be the option for a PA to buy power points with nuyen during
:character creation. How this should be done, the amount of nuyen per power
:point, or the question where the limit should lie, is the reason why I seek
:guidance from the Great Collective(tm) of the mailing list.

There is the option of taking geas. That will give you more powers-
with limits on thier use.
I don't think they need to be more powerful at character creation, but
if you are looking for a monitary amount, 200,000¥ seems fair. You'd
probably want to use the build point system to get access to 400k¥ or the
650k¥ bracket.
I got this number by imagining the most expensive normal cyber that
adept powers could replace- Wired 3, at 100k¥ per essence point. So, I
figured power points are worth about 100k¥ each. Extra p[ower poits (past
the 6 you get normally) are like alpahware- to get more that 6 essence
cyber, you need to pay extra. 200k¥ seems fair; how much would a samurai be
willing to spend for an extra essence point?
I'd restrict adepts to buying 3 power points this way. More than that
really gets gross, I think, for a starting character. [Note that Mages are
not ever allowed to buy more than 25 extra force points, even if they have
the cash.]
Not that this all presumes no priority change- its just what I see as a
mathematically reasonably balanced cost for normal adepts buying power
points with cash. 10,000¥ per karma point is a pretty good rate (imo). I
think if you did this, it would make sense to charge mages 10,000¥ for a
force point (with the same max total of 50)- then they might actually buy
them!

Mongoose

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