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Message no. 1
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:45:19 EDT
A friend of mine is wondering: why does a physad have to spend 2 Magic
Points to get Enhanced Centering (from Grimoire 2), when Centering is
part of the metamagic a physad gets when he initiates? He really wants to
know why it is that he has to spend two whole Grades' worth of Magic
points to get _one_ power that can only be used by an initiate...

I've tried explaining it to him (he doesn't seem to get the magnitude of
getting the ability for an entire skill category). If someone else could
please explain this? Mr. Kenson:) ? Someone?


--
-Canthros (troublesome player in tow...)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:23:35 -0600
John E Pederson wrote:
|
| A friend of mine is wondering: why does a physad have to spend 2 Magic
| Points to get Enhanced Centering (from Grimoire 2), when Centering is
| part of the metamagic a physad gets when he initiates? He really wants to
| know why it is that he has to spend two whole Grades' worth of Magic
| points to get _one_ power that can only be used by an initiate...

Well, from an economics standpoint, if he wants the power he has to
pay for it :) Does he think he should get the power for free?

| I've tried explaining it to him (he doesn't seem to get the magnitude of
| getting the ability for an entire skill category). If someone else could
| please explain this? Mr. Kenson:) ? Someone?

Count the number of skills are in a category for him. Cripes, if
he takes Enhanced Centering: Combat, he has a chance to reduce the
target number for just about every combat test. If he gets his grade
up he can rock. And if he's a PA with knowledge skills he can make
life hell for the GM. And I'm not even going to touch the social
skills.

I thank the god(s) that my players haven't read this power very
closely. Maybe you should just tell him that it's a crappy power and
that he should purchase something else <EMGM>.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 3
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:52:51 EDT
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:23:35 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:

>Well, from an economics standpoint, if he wants the power he has to
>pay for it :) Does he think he should get the power for free?


Actually? Yes.



>Count the number of skills are in a category for him. Cripes, if
>he takes Enhanced Centering: Combat, he has a chance to reduce the
>target number for just about every combat test. If he gets his grade
>up he can rock. And if he's a PA with knowledge skills he can make
>life hell for the GM. And I'm not even going to touch the social
>skills.


<munch>
Social skills? What are those?
</munch>

:) If my players had half of the game figured out, I'd be in serious
trouble. As it is, they still haven't got combat straight:) Well, most of
them haven't, anyway (I'll let my player figure out what I meant by
_that_ :)


>I thank the god(s) that my players haven't read this power very
>closely. Maybe you should just tell him that it's a crappy power and
>that he should purchase something else <EMGM>.


Actually, I'm not too worried, as he's inquiring as to a NPC/former PC
he's working out stats for. He got started off on this when the 'Physads
got shafted' thread started last. I'd tell him just to ignore it, but he
thinks it's 'stupid' that a physad's centering only counts for Physical
skills, as-is, and want's me to set up a house rule to alleviate the
perceived problem. And he ought to be reading most of this:)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:32:55 GMT
John E Pederson writes

> A friend of mine is wondering: why does a physad have to spend 2 Magic
> Points to get Enhanced Centering (from Grimoire 2), when Centering is
> part of the metamagic a physad gets when he initiates? He really wants to
> know why it is that he has to spend two whole Grades' worth of Magic
> points to get _one_ power that can only be used by an initiate...
>
> I've tried explaining it to him (he doesn't seem to get the magnitude of
> getting the ability for an entire skill category). If someone else could
> please explain this? Mr. Kenson:) ? Someone?
>
Ok base you get centring for just the two physical skills.

Enhanced centring i believe is bought 'by the skill'. Yes it's
expensive, 2 magic for the ability to lose TN penalties off melee
combat attacks but devastatingly effective. You see you could tkae
something like a Ki shout as centring skill, you have to move up to
opponent +1 TN, oh not any more! and you get to take grade off the
centring TN. Got a lighting (i rarely rate these in melee unless its
very dark nut) or wound penalty, not any more you don't! You can
easily get at least 1 TN penalty away and a skill of 5 and reasonable
grade almost ensures you a reduction of 2. Oh 2 enemies? well
attacking a second target in a complax action is only a +2, centr it
off and you can hit both of them (assuming you are in melee with both
at the same time and split your dice pools, but thats what enhanced
armed combat etc. solves).
Physical adpets through enhanced dice, centring and pain resistance
can become 2 to 3 times better than anyone else can ever hope to
achieve in melee combat. Sure you have to get right up to the target
but for sneaky in your face combat it gets VERY lethal very quickly.

This power is expensive but once you make the investment on a
character with the skill to use it the effects are devastating. It
will negate penalties from multiple enemies, wounds, movement, enemy
reach (if not using the optional rule from the companion) etc leaving
you rolling all that great pile of dice at standard TN's while you
poor opponent picks up penalties and as the base TN is a 4 in melee,
and penalties of 2 would be a 6 (1/3 as many successes) and 4
centring successes is that off again this works over just the range
where the SR dice system gives the most lethality for your investment.

If it was any cheaper everyone would have it, as it stands its good
but expensive enough to keep it to the real melee specialist physical
adepts. (yes some specialise in other things, they are also very good
at stealth at sublty)

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:54:28 +0100
|
|A friend of mine is wondering: why does a physad have to spend 2 Magic
|Points to get Enhanced Centering (from Grimoire 2), when Centering is
|part of the metamagic a physad gets when he initiates? He really wants to
|know why it is that he has to spend two whole Grades' worth of Magic
|points to get _one_ power that can only be used by an initiate...

When mages use centering, they can only use if for a very limited number of
things.

They CAN'T use of for ranged combat with guns, for example....

Phys Ads CAN with Enhanced Centering. (That's WHY it's enhanced)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100
John E Pederson said on 21:45/22 Jul 97...

> A friend of mine is wondering: why does a physad have to spend 2 Magic
> Points to get Enhanced Centering (from Grimoire 2), when Centering is
> part of the metamagic a physad gets when he initiates? He really wants to
> know why it is that he has to spend two whole Grades' worth of Magic
> points to get _one_ power that can only be used by an initiate...
>
> I've tried explaining it to him (he doesn't seem to get the magnitude of
> getting the ability for an entire skill category). If someone else could
> please explain this? Mr. Kenson:) ? Someone?

If he doesn't spend the 2 MP for the power, all he can use it for are
magical skills: Sorcery, Conjuring, that kind of thing. I don't see
physads using those on a regular basis, so in itself the Centering power
is mostly useless for a physad.

But consider this: for 2 MP you can reduce the TN for shooting someone by
taking out the glare penalty caused by the sun reflecting off that car. Or
get more money from Mr. Johnson by effectively removing his distrust of
you. This is a pretty powerful ability to have, and if you really want it
you can think ahead and spend only 4 MP onpowers during character
generation, then initiate and take the Enhanced Centering power
immediately when you gain grade 0.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: mike bernico <mbernico@****.K12.IL.US>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:32:59 -0500
just a question on this topic, are there any TN modifiers that enhanced
centering can't reduce. for example, can it reduce reach modifiers.
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:03:19 -0600
mike bernico wrote:
|
| just a question on this topic, are there any TN modifiers that enhanced
| centering can't reduce. for example, can it reduce reach modifiers.

Assuming you took enhanced centering in Combat :) yes, it could be
used to reduce negative reach modifiers. The only exception to
reducing modifiers is that Centering and Enhanced Centering can only
be used to counter negative modifiers (an increase to the target
number). A character couldn't reduce the target number by 4 if the
negative modifiers totaled +2, he could only counter the +2. It
doesn't matter where the negative modifiers are coming from.


-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 9
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:27 EDT
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:32:55 GMT Mark Steedman
<M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk> writes:

<<Ok base you get centring for just the two physical skills.>>


Yep, Stealth and Athletics. With you so far, except they might also get
it for any magical skills they can use (since they don't have much use
for such skills, I don't see this as being a big problem).


<<Enhanced centring i believe is bought 'by the skill'.>>


Actually, it's bought by skill category (as outlined in the skill chart
in SR2). So, two Magic Points allow him to use it for Armed Combat,
Unarmed Combat, Firearms, Gunnery, Throwing Weapons, Projectile Weapons
and Demolitions.


<remainder snipped>
I agree with pretty much everything else, and can't see quoting it for a
me too:)



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

<<If he doesn't spend the 2 MP for the power, all he can use it for are
magical skills: Sorcery, Conjuring, that kind of thing. I don't see
physads using those on a regular basis, so in itself the Centering power
is mostly useless for a physad.>>


Actually, Gurth, the Grimmy states that a physad can automatically use
Centering with Physical Skills.


<<But consider this: for 2 MP you can reduce the TN for shooting someone
by taking out the glare penalty caused by the sun reflecting off that
car. Or get more money from Mr. Johnson by effectively removing his
distrust of you. This is a pretty powerful ability to have, and if you
really want it you can think ahead and spend only 4 MP onpowers during
character generation, then initiate and take the Enhanced Centering power
immediately when you gain grade 0.>>

Again, agreed:) It just requires a bit of thought to make effective use
of it. . .


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 10
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:54:39 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-23 07:03:22 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> When mages use centering, they can only use if for a very limited number
of
> things.
>
> They CAN'T use of for ranged combat with guns, for example....
>
> Phys Ads CAN with Enhanced Centering. (That's WHY it's enhanced)
>
>
Actually, IIRC Physical Adepts can use their Centering without anything
additional bought for their Physical Skills (which is subgroup of the Active
Category)...aka, Athletics & Stealth. One might argue Dancing and Yoga even.
Enhanced Centering is required to actually use it for Combat Categories, or
anything else for that matter.
-Keith
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:57:41 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-23 09:41:36 EDT, mbernico@****.K12.IL.US (mike
bernico) writes:

>
> just a question on this topic, are there any TN modifiers that enhanced
> centering can't reduce. for example, can it reduce reach modifiers.
>
In theory, it can't remove Totemic Disadvantage Modifiers (like those from
Cat or Snake). It can probably remove/defeat the reach modifiers, but that
is up to the GM in question I would think.

My favorite is getting rid of that damn modifier for the Initiate Shields
usage by the opponent.
-Keith
Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:06:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-23 13:59:48 EDT, lobo1@****.COM (John E Pederson)
writes:

>
> Actually, it's bought by skill category (as outlined in the skill chart
> in SR2). So, two Magic Points allow him to use it for Armed Combat,
> Unarmed Combat, Firearms, Gunnery, Throwing Weapons, Projectile Weapons
> and Demolitions.

Actually, that's note -quite- right. Its' by skill Category...Combat (Armed,
Unarmed, Thrown, Projectile), Technical (Computers, Electronics, Radio
Sciences, etc.), Knowledge (Big List), Language (Bigger List?), B/R (can be
interesting, character can make some big money on the side), Magical (which
allows for the Centering to actually get used in Enchanting and a few other
things)...

> On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>
> <<If he doesn't spend the 2 MP for the power, all he can use it for are
> magical skills: Sorcery, Conjuring, that kind of thing. I don't see
> physads using those on a regular basis, so in itself the Centering power
> is mostly useless for a physad.>>
>
> Actually, Gurth, the Grimmy states that a physad can automatically use
> Centering with Physical Skills.

True, and "standard" centering can be really helpful. The "Astral
Adepts"
(Physical Adepts with Astral Perception in this definition) get to use their
Centering to help them deal with opposable magical elements. Extra Successes
in spirit combat are incredibly helpful.

> <<But consider this: for 2 MP you can reduce the TN for shooting someone
> by taking out the glare penalty caused by the sun reflecting off that
> car. Or get more money from Mr. Johnson by effectively removing his
> distrust of you. This is a pretty powerful ability to have, and if you
> really want it you can think ahead and spend only 4 MP onpowers during
> character generation, then initiate and take the Enhanced Centering power
> immediately when you gain grade 0.>>
>
> Again, agreed:) It just requires a bit of thought to make effective use
> of it. . .
Agree here as well.
-Keith
Message no. 13
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:15:58 EDT
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:06:08 -0400 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:

>> Actually, it's bought by skill category (as outlined in the skill
>chart
>> in SR2). So, two Magic Points allow him to use it for Armed Combat,
>> Unarmed Combat, Firearms, Gunnery, Throwing Weapons, Projectile
>Weapons
>> and Demolitions.
>
>Actually, that's note -quite- right. Its' by skill Category...Combat
>(Armed,
>Unarmed, Thrown, Projectile), Technical (Computers, Electronics, Radio


<g> I think that's what I said, Physad spends two Magic points [for
Enhanced Centering: Combat], now he can use Centering on any skill
classed as a Combat skill (those that I listed are all 'Combat' skills,
as per p75 of the BBB)


>Sciences, etc.), Knowledge (Big List), Language (Bigger List?), B/R
>(can be
>interesting, character can make some big money on the side), Magical
>(which
>allows for the Centering to actually get used in Enchanting and a few
>other
>things)...


Except that a physad can't enchant, and can't use most magical skills
except for mundane effects (which is to say, in the same way(s) a mundane
could use them).


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:26:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-24 01:01:48 EDT, lobo1@****.COM (John E Pederson)
writes:

>
> >Sciences, etc.), Knowledge (Big List), Language (Bigger List?), B/R
> >(can be
> >interesting, character can make some big money on the side), Magical
> >(which
> >allows for the Centering to actually get used in Enchanting and a few
> >other
> >things)...
>
>
> Except that a physad can't enchant, and can't use most magical skills
> except for mundane effects (which is to say, in the same way(s) a mundane
> could use them).
>
>
True, but a Physical Mage can, and these rules apply to them as well. Also,
a Physical Adept -CAN- enchant, even a mundane can make fetishes. As such,
the skills could go in that direction as well.
-Keith
Message no. 15
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physad Enhanced Centering)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:45:47 EDT
On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:26:10 +0200 Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA> writes:


>I'd like someone to check me here please.


<shrug> Okay. Check! :)


<<The phenomenon of physical magicians is supposed to be unproven and a
little unbelieved according to the source material, right?>>


True enough.


<<I dont have the paper work so I 'll leave the page quotes to the gurus.
Just how many GM's are allowing their players to play this IMHO marginal
and unnesassary (sp? oooooh!) archetype?>>


Well, I certainly do, but you should see the other stuff I'll let my
players have, if they ask for it:) The honest truth is that a Phys. Mage
*isn't* that powerful. He's versatile, he's rare, but he's not a combat
monster, not automatically. The Physical Mage is really pretty well
balanced. "Jack of all trades, Master of none", you know.


>It smacks of "best of both worlding"


Maybe so, but they remain pretty well balanced and can be used to create
some really interesting characters (one I toyed with was a rocker),
because you can do stuff with them that's not possible with any other
type of character. Conversely, they'll never be able to astrally project,
they'll never be able to go on an astral quest (on their own), etc, etc.


> Arcanum Majoris - Big Magic! :)



--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

Further Reading

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