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Message no. 1
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:21:08 -0400
hoockadelic wrote:

> Hi there, I just noticed something in
> the SR3 rules for adept powers, it says
> that for 20 Good Karma points an adept can
> get 1 point worth of new powers. That
> seems quite unbalancing to me regarding
> initiation. Physad characters will not
> need to undergo initiation over let's say
> grade 3, they'll just spend 20 Karma
> points !
> What do you think about that ?

Actually, I don't think that's a new rule, I have used that one before
and I've only played SR2. Perhaps we made it up, but I think it was in
the rules somewhere. I personally liked the idea, as after a few
initiation levels, you get to the point that there is not many other
things you can do, unlike mages, who have lots of metaplanes, etc.
Besides, it is an expensive tradeoff, and Initiate levels do more for
the personality of the character. Guess it would really depend on how
fast the character accumulates karma.

Wildfire
Message no. 2
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:22:25 -0400
At 13.04 08-12-99 +0200, you wrote:
> What do you think about that ?

I think I'm glad I use SR2


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 3
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT)
---hoockadelic <hoockadelic@****.club-internet.fr> wrote:
>
> Hi there, I just noticed something in
> the SR3 rules for adept powers, it says
> that for 20 Good Karma points an adept can
> get 1 point worth of new powers. That
> seems quite unbalancing to me regarding
> initiation. Physad characters will not
> need to undergo initiation over let's say
> grade 3, they'll just spend 20 Karma
> points !
> What do you think about that ?

Well, let's see. First of all, assuming the adept both has a group
to work with and undergoes an ordeal each time, an initiation won't cost
him more than 20 Karma points until Grade 11 or something ridiculous like
that. (Assuming, of course, I am remembering the MItS table correctly.)

Secondly, adepts only have 3 metamagical abilities they can get, so
initiation beyond Grade 3 for them loses some of the point, anyway.

And thirdly, if you don't like that rule, change it. :) Force adepts to
initiate every time they want a point. :)

--Number 10.


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Message no. 4
From: Robin_Schnöckelborg r.schnoeckelborg@***.net
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:33:16 +0200
trading karma for power pts wasnt in sr2, its a new thing.

initiation still has its advantages to adepts. adepts can raise their magic
attribute, and they can learn centering, divining and masking. they can also
shed a geas. i think they can also change their astral signature (or is this
merely spell related?).

Robin
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
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ICQ# 22372585
Get cRAze!y! @ www.raze.de
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
An: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. August 1999 14:21
Betreff: Re: physads and Karma in SR3


>
>
> hoockadelic wrote:
>
> > Hi there, I just noticed something in
> > the SR3 rules for adept powers, it says
> > that for 20 Good Karma points an adept can
> > get 1 point worth of new powers. That
> > seems quite unbalancing to me regarding
> > initiation. Physad characters will not
> > need to undergo initiation over let's say
> > grade 3, they'll just spend 20 Karma
> > points !
> > What do you think about that ?
>
> Actually, I don't think that's a new rule, I have used that one before
> and I've only played SR2. Perhaps we made it up, but I think it was in
> the rules somewhere. I personally liked the idea, as after a few
> initiation levels, you get to the point that there is not many other
> things you can do, unlike mages, who have lots of metaplanes, etc.
> Besides, it is an expensive tradeoff, and Initiate levels do more for
> the personality of the character. Guess it would really depend on how
> fast the character accumulates karma.
>
> Wildfire
>
>
>
Message no. 5
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:12:06 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 7:06:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hoockadelic@****.club-internet.fr writes:

> Hi there, I just noticed something in
> the SR3 rules for adept powers, it says
> that for 20 Good Karma points an adept can
> get 1 point worth of new powers. That
> seems quite unbalancing to me regarding
> initiation. Physad characters will not
> need to undergo initiation over let's say
> grade 3, they'll just spend 20 Karma
> points !


The main reason for Physical Adepts to undergo initiation under SR3 rules is
that you can only have a number of levels of a Power equal to your magic
attribute. The 20GK=1 Power Point thing was new to SR3. (Heck, Power Points
are new to SR3.)



-Twist
Message no. 6
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:53:51 -0400 (EDT)
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At 01:04 PM 8/12/99 +0200, hoockadelic wrote:
: Hi there, I just noticed something in
:the SR3 rules for adept powers, it says
:that for 20 Good Karma points an adept can
:get 1 point worth of new powers. That
:seems quite unbalancing to me regarding
:initiation. Physad characters will not
:need to undergo initiation over let's say
:grade 3, they'll just spend 20 Karma
:points !
: What do you think about that ?

Points to consider (some of these have been mentioned already today,
but still):


The number of levels of a particular power that a Physad can buy is
limited by her Magic attribute. So is the range of the ever popular
Adept power Distance Strike. Buying Power Points does not increase
the Magic attribute, only Initiation can do that.


Buying a Power Point does not let you learn a Metamagical technique.
While all but three of the Metamagic techniques are unusable by
Adepts, one in particular, Centering, deserves special notice. With
Adept Initiates, Centering isn't a single Metamagical technique, it's
several dozen.

The first time an adept Initiates a grade and learns Centering, she
learns it for Athletics and Stealth. As a Metamagical technique on
subsequent Initiations, the adept can go back and learn Centering for
other skills, at a rate of one new skill per grade. These skills can
be from any of the following cateogories: Build/Repair, Melee Combat,
Ranged Combat, Knowledge, Language, Social, Technical, and Vehicle.


Should an Adept gain a geas because of magic loss, Initiation can
remove it, while buying Power Points can not.


Compared to the Karma Costs for self-initiation without ordeal, it's
true that after the first grade, it becomes cheaper just to buy the
Power Point directly. However, when you add in the help of ordeals
and groups, the grade where the costs "break even" gets pushed back.
Self-initiation with ordeal is cheaper than buying power points for
grades 1 and 2 and the same cost at grade 3. Group initiation w/o
ordeal is cheaper up to grade 4 and just as expensive at grade 5.
Group initiation with ordeal is cheaper than buying Power Points for
grades 1-8.

These savings can really stack up. As an example, consider an Adept
who self-initiates without an ordeal to Grade 1. She then joins an
initiation group, and proceeds initiate w/o ordeal up to Grade 5. She
undergoes some reasonable ordeals for Grades 6, 7, and 8, perhaps
Meditation, Thesis, and Deed. The benifits: 8 Extra power points to
play with, +8 to her Magic attribute, neat Metamagical techniques
like Masking, and Centering for Athletics, Stealth, plus 6 other
skills. The Karma cost: 139 (if the player doesn't mind some of the
harsher Ordeals like Oath, Geas, and Asceticism, this can go even
lower).

Compare this to spending 140 Karma to buy just 7 Power Points. If
there's an imbalance here, it's in favor of Initiation. :)



Really, what it comes down to is that the option to purchase Power
Points is a stopgap measure to make Adepts viable long-term
characters for gaming groups that just have the core rulebook and no
sourcebooks. Under the previous edition, if you tried to play a game
with just the core rulebook, you would find that Street Sams could
always get more or better cyberware, Mages could learn new spells,
Riggers could get faster cars, but Physads had no way to advance in
their own area of proficiency.

While everyone else is getting new 'toys' to play with, the only way
for the Physad to improve would be to increase attributes and skills
(which everyone else on the team would be doing alongside their other
advancements anyway) or to save up the nuyen for an expensive weapon
focus (and weapon foci don't fit every Physad's char-concept, so
that's not an option for some). Either that, or break down and buy
Grimoire 2, talk the GM into allowing Initiation, and then throw tons
of Karma into a rules system geared to Mages instead of Physads that
burns up Karma like it were toilet paper soaked in gasoline.

Under this edition, a group can play using just the core rulebook,
and Adepts can still get new 'stuff' to play with just like the other
character types can.

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Message no. 7
From: GreyWolf sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:43:57 +1000
> Secondly, adepts only have 3 metamagical abilities they can get, so
> initiation beyond Grade 3 for them loses some of the point, anyway.

I have to disagree here..

Masking is useful at higher initiate grades when youre going against awakened
enemies who are also initiated.
Also:
Dont you need to get centreing again at a new initiate grade to allow you to centre
for each new skill?

there's also clensing - useful for adepts with astral perception.

dont discount the usefulness of an adept being highly initiated. :)

GreyWolf


--
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rubber starship that bothers me."
Message no. 8
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:11:44 -0400 (EDT)
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At 09:43 AM 8/13/99 +1000, GreyWolf wrote:
:there's also clensing - useful for adepts with astral perception.

Adepts can take Cleansing? That's odd. On MitS, p.69 it says "Adepts
can only learn the techniques of Centering, Divining, and Masking." I
didn't see anything in the description of Cleansing that said that
Adepts with the Astral Perception power could learn it.

There is a sentence from a few lines above the one I just quoted that
reads "For each grade, a character can attempt to learn one
metamagical technique, provided he meets the requirements to use it."
If you take that statement at face value, by it's own, I suppose
that'd justify the view that Adepts with the Astral Perception power
can learn Cleansing, but in doing that, you preclude taking the other
part of the paragraph (the one about Adepts only being able to learn
Centering, Divining, and Masking) at face value.

Is there some concrete statement that I'm missing somewhere that says
for sure that they can take Cleansing, or is this a case of "The book
doesn't say you can do it, but it doesn't say you can't either..."?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:07:10 -0500
It's been more than 48 hours.

> Is there some concrete statement that I'm missing somewhere that says
> for sure that [adepts] can take Cleansing, or is this a case of "The book
> doesn't say you can do it, but it doesn't say you can't either..."?

I haven't seen anything specific. In my position, I'd rule that physical
mages (or magician adepts, or whatever they're called) could learn cleansing
(they have the use of Sorcery skill, after all), but they're the only adepts
who can.

I could, of course, be completely wrong and utterly off-base here.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: GreyWolf sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:22:25 +1000
> Adepts can take Cleansing? That's odd. On MitS, p.69 it says "Adepts
> can only learn the techniques of Centering, Divining, and Masking." I
> didn't see anything in the description of Cleansing that said that
> Adepts with the Astral Perception power could learn it.

Gak! I havent seen that bit. Ill check it when I get home. Thanks.

> There is a sentence from a few lines above the one I just quoted that
> reads "For each grade, a character can attempt to learn one
> metamagical technique, provided he meets the requirements to use it."
> If you take that statement at face value, by it's own, I suppose
> that'd justify the view that Adepts with the Astral Perception power
> can learn Cleansing, but in doing that, you preclude taking the other
> part of the paragraph (the one about Adepts only being able to learn
> Centering, Divining, and Masking) at face value.

I can certainly understand why a percieing adept could want clensing. I
cant really see a reason why they shouldnt be alloed to have it. But if
the Mits book says its a no-go then i guess tahts what it is.

> Is there some concrete statement that I'm missing somewhere that says
> for sure that they can take Cleansing, or is this a case of "The book
> doesn't say you can do it, but it doesn't say you can't either..."?

I dunno. I never saw anything saying they were restricted in what they
could take. It was obvious that certain techniqyes were useless to an
adept though. Since I havent seen the above quote Ill have to check it
before I respond propperly :)

*Always do your research!*

Greywolf

--
"I don't know, Scotty. Maybe it's just the _idea_ of an inflatable
rubber starship that bothers me."
Message no. 11
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:15:56 +1000
At 06:29 12/08/99 -0700, Number Ten Ox wrote:
> Secondly, adepts only have 3 metamagical abilities they can get, so
>initiation beyond Grade 3 for them loses some of the point, anyway.

Considering that the adept can buy the highly effective metamagic of
Centering, separately, in 8+ different skill areas, I'd wouldn't say that
they only have 3 metamagical abilities available from initiation. Also,
since at higher initiation grades both the Centering (e.g. against
penalties) and Masking skills become increasingly more effective, I believe
adepts have just as much incentive as any magician to initiate.


Chris
Message no. 12
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:29:17 +1000
At 16:53 12/08/99 -0400, runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:
>Buying a Power Point does not let you learn a Metamagical technique.
>While all but three of the Metamagic techniques are unusable by
>Adepts, one in particular, Centering, deserves special notice. With
>Adept Initiates, Centering isn't a single Metamagical technique, it's
>several dozen.

Maybe not that many. See below.

>The first time an adept Initiates a grade and learns Centering, she
>learns it for Athletics and Stealth. As a Metamagical technique on
>subsequent Initiations, the adept can go back and learn Centering for
>other skills, at a rate of one new skill per grade. These skills can
>be from any of the following cateogories: Build/Repair, Melee Combat,
>Ranged Combat, Knowledge, Language, Social, Technical, and Vehicle.

Although MITS says at one point that the adept may learn to apply Centering
to a new "skill" as a new technique, in multiple places it says that the
adept learns to apply Centering to a new "skill area" as the new technique.
From re-reading the section I believe skill area is the correct
nterpretation. Therefore, the adept only(?) has to initiate and learn
Centering nine times to cover all standard active, language and knowledge
skills.



Chris
Message no. 13
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:38:32 +1000
At 16:53 12/08/99 -0400, runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:
>Buying a Power Point does not let you learn a Metamagical technique.
>While all but three of the Metamagic techniques are unusable by
>Adepts, one in particular, Centering, deserves special notice. With
>Adept Initiates, Centering isn't a single Metamagical technique, it's
>several dozen.

Maybe not that many. See below.

>The first time an adept Initiates a grade and learns Centering, she
>learns it for Athletics and Stealth. As a Metamagical technique on
>subsequent Initiations, the adept can go back and learn Centering for
>other skills, at a rate of one new skill per grade. These skills can
>be from any of the following cateogories: Build/Repair, Melee Combat,
>Ranged Combat, Knowledge, Language, Social, Technical, and Vehicle.

Although MITS says at one point that the adept may learn to apply Centering
to a new "skill" as a new technique, in multiple places it says that the
adept learns to apply Centering to a new "skill area" as the new technique.
From re-reading the section I believe skill area is the correct
nterpretation. Therefore, the adept only(?) has to initiate and learn
Centering nine times to cover all standard active, language and knowledge
skills.



Chris
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:59:48 -0500
It's been more than 48 hours.

> Is there some concrete statement that I'm missing somewhere that says
> for sure that [adepts] can take Cleansing, or is this a case of "The book
> doesn't say you can do it, but it doesn't say you can't either..."?

I haven't seen anything specific. In my position, I'd rule that physical
mages (or magician adepts, or whatever they're called) could learn cleansing
(they have the use of Sorcery skill, after all), but they're the only adepts
who can.

I could, of course, be completely wrong and utterly off-base here.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
> > Is there some concrete statement that I'm missing somewhere that
says for sure that [adepts] can take Cleansing, or is this a case of
"The book doesn't say you can do it, but it doesn't say you can't
either..."?
>
> I haven't seen anything specific. In my position, I'd rule that
physical mages (or magician adepts, or whatever they're called) could
learn cleansing (they have the use of Sorcery skill, after all), but
they're the only adepts who can.
>
> I could, of course, be completely wrong and utterly off-base here.
> (>) Texas 2-Step

The place where it says adepts can only learn Centring, Divination and
Masking is correct.

Magical adepts may learn ANY metamagical technique, including the
enhanced Centring, as they have access to all required magical skills.

*This has been a community service announcement from FASA.

NOT!!!*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 16
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:50:51 +1000
At 16:53 12/08/99 -0400, runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:
>Buying a Power Point does not let you learn a Metamagical technique.
>While all but three of the Metamagic techniques are unusable by
>Adepts, one in particular, Centering, deserves special notice. With
>Adept Initiates, Centering isn't a single Metamagical technique, it's
>several dozen.

Maybe not that many. See below.

>The first time an adept Initiates a grade and learns Centering, she
>learns it for Athletics and Stealth. As a Metamagical technique on
>subsequent Initiations, the adept can go back and learn Centering for
>other skills, at a rate of one new skill per grade. These skills can
>be from any of the following cateogories: Build/Repair, Melee Combat,
>Ranged Combat, Knowledge, Language, Social, Technical, and Vehicle.

Although MITS says at one point that the adept may learn to apply Centering
to a new "skill" as a new technique, in multiple places it says that the
adept learns to apply Centering to a new "skill area" as the new technique.
From re-reading the section I believe skill area is the correct
nterpretation. Therefore, the adept only(?) has to initiate and learn
Centering nine times to cover all standard active, language and knowledge
skills.



Chris
Message no. 17
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:28:33 -0400 (EDT)
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At 03:50 PM 8/13/99 +1000, Chris Maxfield wrote:
::With Adept Initiates, Centering isn't a single Metamagical
::technique, it's several dozen.
:
:Maybe not that many. See below.

Still, it brings the total of Metamagical Techniques an Adept can
learn to a couple more than three, either way you look at it. :)


:Although MITS says at one point that the adept may learn to apply
:Centering to a new "skill" as a new technique, in multiple places it
: says that the adept learns to apply Centering to a new "skill area"
: as the new technique. From re-reading the section I believe skill
:area is the correct nterpretation. Therefore, the adept only(?) has
: to initiate and learn Centering nine times to cover all standard
:active, language and knowledge skills.

The passage is unclear. Sentences like "Learning to apply centering
to a new skill is the only metamagical technique the adept may learn
for that grade." and "Each skill ... is considered a separate
technique." seem to support a One Skill per Grade viewpoint (after
all, if they meant to say "skill area" they would have had space in
those paragraphs to add in that extra word).

Even under the One Skill Area per Grade viewpoint, once you've
learned all the standard skills, you can still learn it for Skill
Areas under special skills. Depending on how creative you get, you
still might be able to squeeze several dozen out of it. :)

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Message no. 18
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:52:27 -0500
Number Ten Ox writes:
> Secondly, adepts only have 3 metamagical abilities they can get, so
>initiation beyond Grade 3 for them loses some of the point, anyway.

Don't forget that Adepts can take centering multiple times for different
categories. The first centering is for Stealth/Athletics and also gives you the
ability to center for drain. If you want to center for unarmed, it's a seperate
centering category.
Message no. 19
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: physads and Karma in SR3
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:18:58 +1000
At 10:28 13/08/99 -0400, runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:
>.The passage is unclear. Sentences like "Learning to apply centering
>to a new skill is the only metamagical technique the adept may learn
>for that grade." and "Each skill ... is considered a separate
>technique." seem to support a One Skill per Grade viewpoint (after
>all, if they meant to say "skill area" they would have had space in
>those paragraphs to add in that extra word).

True. But in several other places the text refers to a "skill area" as
covered by a new Centering technique: "can learn to apply it to an
additional skill area at Grade 2" and "Adepts can use centering for success
and centering against penalties for any skill area they have learnt to
center in." - I'm sure that they would have just used the word "skill" in
these sentences if that's what they meant. Further, in the example, the
adept Johnny Zen learns Centering for the skill area Ranged Combat, not the
skill Projectile Weapons, in order to improve his ability with his bow.

I'm not sure that this has that big an impact in-game but I'm now curious
as to what Steve meant when he re-wrote this section. :-)

>Even under the One Skill Area per Grade viewpoint, once you've
>learned all the standard skills, you can still learn it for Skill
>Areas under special skills. Depending on how creative you get, you
>still might be able to squeeze several dozen out of it. :)

Laugh.


Chris

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about physads and Karma in SR3, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!