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Message no. 1
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:06:29 -0700
Guys and Gals,

I've been thinking about the whole initiative system. Say, is it possible for
a physad with a degree of Wired Reflexes or Enhanced Reflexes to make an attack
twice or even three times per combat round? Especially if the Initiative
system was improved a bit?

Just Wondering.

— Elton Robb
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:25:04 -0700
Glenn Robb wrote:
/
/ Guys and Gals,
/
/ I've been thinking about the whole initiative system. Say, is it
possible for / a physad with a degree of Wired Reflexes or Enhanced
Reflexes to make an attack / twice or even three times per combat
round? Especially if the Initiative / system was improved a bit?
/
/ Just Wondering.

Currently it is not possible to gain more than 2 simple actions or 1
complex action per combat phase, no matter how fast you are.

IMO, there isn't a need for a piece of ware or an ability that would
grant a character additional actions per combat phase. It's allready
taken care of the fact that faster characters can act on more than
one combat phase, which in effect grants them additional actions per
combat turn.

And as for improving the system, there really isn't a way to do it.
If you want to have a multiple action per turn system Shadowrun
handles it as well as any other system. You could use Champion's
initiative system, replace Reaction with Speed, but then it wouldn't
be random and the fastest character would always go first. But it
would be quick. You could use AD$D's system ;) Or you could change
it to a one combat phase per turn system where the highest initiative
goes first (i.e., each character only acts once, on their initiative,
per turn). I briefly played with the idea of compressing everyone's
actions into one combat phase (if a character rolled an initiative of
24 he would have 6 simple actions on his combat phase) but it didn't
work the way I thought it would.

It all depends on what you want for your game :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
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Message no. 3
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:02:07 -0500
At 01-Dez-97 wrote Glenn Robb:

>Guys and Gals,

>I've been thinking about the whole initiative system. Say, is it possible
for
>a physad with a degree of Wired Reflexes or Enhanced Reflexes to make an
>attack
>twice or even three times per combat round? Especially if the Initiative
>system was improved a bit?

Per round sure, they can do it now.
All they need is to roll an initiative above 10:)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:03:19 -0500
At 01-Dez-97 wrote David Buehrer:

>Glenn Robb wrote:

>Reflexes to make an attack / twice or even three times per combat
>round?

>Currently it is not possible to gain more than 2 simple actions or 1
>complex action per combat phase, no matter how fast you are.

He said round not phase.
But if he mean phase, then you are right by default :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:25:51 -0700
Barbie wrote:
/
/ At 01-Dez-97 wrote David Buehrer:
/
/ >Glenn Robb wrote:
/
/ >Reflexes to make an attack / twice or even three times per combat
/ >round?
/
/ >Currently it is not possible to gain more than 2 simple actions or 1
/ >complex action per combat phase, no matter how fast you are.
/
/ He said round not phase.
/ But if he mean phase, then you are right by default :)

I coulda swore there was no such thing as a combat round, only a
combat phase and a combat turn. It looked like Glenn was talking
about phases, so... :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:44:18 -0500
At 01-Dez-97 wrote David Buehrer:


>I coulda swore there was no such thing as a combat round, only a
>combat phase and a combat turn. It looked like Glenn was talking
>about phases, so... :)

Damn, seems I fumbled with the language thing.
In german the turn is a round, so I didn`t even think about the phases.
One possible solution to his question can be that:
An melee attack is in essence two simple actions, one as attack and one as
defending action. So if the character in question give up his defenses,
he can then make two attacks, but has no defenses at all (read auto hit).

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:55:26 PST
[Can somebody with]
>>Reflexes to make an attack / twice or even three times per combat
>>round?
>
>>Currently it is not possible to gain more than 2 simple actions or 1
>>complex action per combat phase, no matter how fast you are.
>
>He said round not phase.
>But if he mean phase, then you are right by default :)

Your assuming MELEE attacks, right? Because you can make 2 ranged
attacks most all times, more using full autofire guns. Using autofire
is a single complex action, and you can shoot as many people as you want
and have bullets for, at +2 per target.

Strangely, that SAME modifier is on the melee table. HMM. Melee is a
complex action. HMM. I'd say you can launch as as many attacks as you
want as your one complex "melee" action, with a cumulative +2TN to each
additional attack- in fact, the "multiple targets" modifier rule for
melee refers you to P 92, which is the rule for autofire.

Note that you might concievably knock down or disable your first target,
preventing him from being a friend in melee, or you could attack, move,
and attack your second target.

Obviously, you'd want reach and a good skill, but my troll mage got
showy once and took on a cluster of watchers this way in astral combat.
4 net succeses get hard to score, even with reach 3. Bummer.

The one thing that peaves me- if you can melee attack multiple targets,
why can't you attack one target multiple times per phase?


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of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
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Message no. 8
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:25:46 -0700
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Mon goose wrote:

> The one thing that peaves me- if you can melee attack multiple targets,
> why can't you attack one target multiple times per phase?
>

How would you work the penalties? Would there be the same +2 to the
second attack, +4 to the third, et cetera?

Would the victim have those same penalties, or would they stay at the
"base" target number? This would be a good balance, making it more and
more dangerous to up the number of attacks.

It could be further balanced by saying you couldn't attack more times or
more people than half your unarmed skill. (The penalty would have to be
less than or equal your skill.)

Another balance, one I've used for normal multiple targets in
unarmed/armed combat, is that if you miss one attack, you cannot make any
of the further attacks, you've been thrown off balance. Any allocated
combat pool dice are gone.



See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
Message no. 9
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:14:42 PST
>> The one thing that peaves me- if you can melee attack multiple
targets (in one complex action), why can't you attack one target
multiple times per phase?
>>
>
>How would you work the penalties? Would there be the same +2 to the
>second attack, +4 to the third, et cetera?
>
>Would the victim have those same penalties, or would they stay at the
>"base" target number? This would be a good balance, making it more and
more dangerous to up the number of attacks.
>

Thats what I figured. It's not allowed by the rules, even though
attacking multiple TARGETS is. Then again, I thank my stars the GM
never realized a single insect spitrit could try to mop up the party
with ONE action. It would makephysads with centering adeal more
frightening, since often theres a chance you can resist melee damage
from one attack down to medium or light.

>It could be further balanced by saying you couldn't attack more times
or more people than half your unarmed skill. (The penalty would have
>to be less than or equal your skill.)

Well,theres not any limit in the BBB to number of targets of a melee
action, but common sense prevents anyone smart from trying more than 3,
so a rule limit is kinda redundant.

>
>Another balance, one I've used for normal multiple targets in
>unarmed/armed combat, is that if you miss one attack, you cannot make
any of the further attacks, you've been thrown off balance. Any
allocated combat pool dice are gone.
>

Yes, as a extension of the "inteception" rule, we rule that if you loose
the melee contest, you can not move away from your target- that limits
multiple attacks, and can pin you down in gunfire , since chances are
your target CAN move.


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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:30:18 +0100
Mon goose said on 10:55/ 1 Dec 97...

> Strangely, that SAME modifier is on the melee table. HMM. Melee is a
> complex action. HMM. I'd say you can launch as as many attacks as you
> want as your one complex "melee" action, with a cumulative +2TN to each
> additional attack- in fact, the "multiple targets" modifier rule for
> melee refers you to P 92, which is the rule for autofire.

The way I always interpreted that rule is if you want to attack two or
more people in one strike. For example, swinging your sword in such a way
that the arc catches both attackers. That would be one attack, though it
would be best to roll two attack tests, I think.

> The one thing that peaves me- if you can melee attack multiple targets,
> why can't you attack one target multiple times per phase?

See above.

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Message no. 11
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes -Reply
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:15:06 -0500
>Strangely, that SAME modifier is on the melee table. HMM. Melee is a
>complex action. HMM. I'd say you can launch as as many attacks as
>you want as your one complex "melee" action, with a cumulative +2TN
>to each additional attack- in fact, the "multiple targets" modifier rule for
>melee refers you to P 92, which is the rule for autofire.
<SNIP>
>The one thing that peaves me- if you can melee attack multiple targets,
>why can't you attack one target multiple times per phase?

I vaguely recall the details of this, maybe it was SR 1st edition, but you
SPLIT your skill dice between the targets in addition to the mod. Doing
this for a single target means higher TN for (almost) no benefit.

Anyone have an actual rules citation?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 12
From: Wfr000 <Wfr000@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physads and Wired Reflexes -Reply
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:32:17 EST
Under the list of complex actions in the combat section of SRII, a melee
attack is defined as a complex action that allows a attacker to hack on all
people in melee range with an additional +2 TN per opponnet. The concept
behind it being that melee combat is a series of strikes, counterstrikes, and
feints. thus a person entering into a hex with multiple opponents will be
allowed to over a three second period(one combat phase) make multiple strikes
either against one opponent or splitting them between several different
opponents. The full number of skill dice are used but pool dice are split
between the different attacks.
amen, dig in

Grinder

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