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Message no. 1
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:33:30 -0400
Greetings all. While pondering the creation of a Phys-ad, Something arose
as a problem and I can't find an answer anywhere:

How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that not
feasable?

WD
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:45:50 -0700
> Greetings all. While pondering the creation of a Phys-ad, Something arose
> as a problem and I can't find an answer anywhere:

> How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that not
> feasable?

Starting a physad with a foci is really only viable under the
point-based (GURPSy) system: it's the only way to gain Force points to
bond the foci with (since you can use build points to buy Force points -
physads do not otherwise start with Force).

It also slants the physad extremely: in the build system, you're likely
to spend 30 or forty points on the focus and bonding it, leaving a very
meager character; even in the A-E, you'd have top devote A and B to tech
and magic, respectively, meaning your physad has about 20 points for
stats and skills each - you'll use up a lot of your Magic just getting
those up to 'normal' shadowrunner level.

Getting a decent background for it, too, is difficult.
Message no. 3
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:07:44 -0400
Wind Dancer once dared to write,

>How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that not
>feasable?

Yea! It's the original question that lead me into a long flame war
when I first joined the list. The answer is NO, although the list in
general doesn't like that ruling. Three sources can be pointed out for
this, first edition Grimoire, Beyond the Shadows: The Shadowrun
Companion, and Mike Mulvihill himself speaking for FASA. I've begged for
Steve Kenson to clarify this in the upcoming third edition. The first
edition Grimoire rules that if the adept does not cast spells then it
gets no force points at CharGen. I still strongly support this ruling.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 4
From: Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:58:26 -0700
> How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that
not
> feasable?
>
> WD

The same way a mage does. He uses the force points purchased with his
resource priority. If he is buying a weapon focus then he should have good
resources and therefore a fair amount if force points with which to work.
The same applies to the new 100 point character creation system in SRC.

Shaun
Message no. 5
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:19:48 -0400
Shaun Hall once dared to write,

>> How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that
>> not feasable?
>
> The same way a mage does. He uses the force points purchased with his
>resource priority. If he is buying a weapon focus then he should have good
>resources and therefore a fair amount if force points with which to work.
>The same applies to the new 100 point character creation system in SRC.

No, PhysAds do not get force points to bond with. Even using the
point system they get no force points as their base when choosing PhysAd
ability. However if you then use more points to buy force points to use
for bonding, then it is OK.
Remember, Adepts are not full magicians and are not automatically
privileged to the same advantages that the full magicians have.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 6
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 20:39:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-13 16:09:22 EDT, mc23@**********.COM writes:

>
> Yea! It's the original question that lead me into a long flame war
> when I first joined the list. The answer is NO, although the list in
> general doesn't like that ruling. Three sources can be pointed out for
> this, first edition Grimoire, Beyond the Shadows: The Shadowrun
> Companion, and Mike Mulvihill himself speaking for FASA. I've begged for
> Steve Kenson to clarify this in the upcoming third edition. The first
> edition Grimoire rules that if the adept does not cast spells then it
> gets no force points at CharGen. I still strongly support this ruling.
>
Well, the thing is, and I don't remember where I read this recently, the
point system is different for a physical adept. They don't get the "force
points" to actually utilize, instead they get a different group, which is
-MUCH- smaller. Please note I said PHYSICAL ADEPT.

Of course, I haven't been paying attention to much lately...
-K
Message no. 7
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:08:45 -0700
> > Yea! It's the original question that lead me into a long flame war
> > when I first joined the list. The answer is NO, although the list in
> > general doesn't like that ruling. Three sources can be pointed out for
> > this, first edition Grimoire, Beyond the Shadows: The Shadowrun
> > Companion, and Mike Mulvihill himself speaking for FASA. I've begged for
> > Steve Kenson to clarify this in the upcoming third edition. The first
> > edition Grimoire rules that if the adept does not cast spells then it
> > gets no force points at CharGen. I still strongly support this ruling.

> Well, the thing is, and I don't remember where I read this recently, the
> point system is different for a physical adept. They don't get the "force
> points" to actually utilize, instead they get a different group, which is
> -MUCH- smaller. Please note I said PHYSICAL ADEPT.

Huh.. I don't recall the point system really mentioned phys-mages at
all, but presumably you would get the Force points. It's still a
helluva lot to spend (20 for the mage, 25/30 for 650K/1M to buy the
focus, which is comparable to the physad - 15 for the adept, 25/30 for
the yen, and 5 or so to buy Force to bond it - but with the physmage you
get spell use as well.)
Message no. 8
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:14:56 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-13 14:32:33 EDT, you write:

> Greetings all. While pondering the creation of a Phys-ad, Something arose
> as a problem and I can't find an answer anywhere:
>
> How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that not
> feasable?

Some of the points used for giving the pc skills would be used for th bonding
purpose. The number of points it takes equals the rating of the weapon
foci.

> WD
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:22:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-13 16:13:47 EDT, you write:

> > How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that
> not
> > feasable?
> >
> > WD
>
> The same way a mage does. He uses the force points purchased with his
> resource priority. If he is buying a weapon focus then he should have good
> resources and therefore a fair amount if force points with which to work.
> The same applies to the new 100 point character creation system in SRC.
>
> Shaun

Shaun, force points would not work, the skill points would be better. Think
of it, if the player took the time to save up the karma to bond the item in
the course of a comapign, then think of the stunting of the skills that the
pc could have developed along the way. Instead of putting the points into
skills, they put it into a weapon foci instead.

AirWisp
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:06:50 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 20:39/13 Sep 97...

> Well, the thing is, and I don't remember where I read this recently, the
> point system is different for a physical adept. They don't get the "force
> points" to actually utilize, instead they get a different group, which is
> -MUCH- smaller. Please note I said PHYSICAL ADEPT.

You probably read that in the Companion, and Mike once commented that this
was because the points physads use to buy powers had never really been
given a name; FASA's editing department opted for calling them "Force
Points" in the Companion.

I prefer Magic Points myself, though, because I give Force Points to any
magician (I'm not going to be drawn into a flame war over this, MC23! :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:06:50 +0100
Wind Dancer said on 14:33/13 Sep 97...

> Greetings all. While pondering the creation of a Phys-ad, Something arose
> as a problem and I can't find an answer anywhere:
>
> How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that not
> feasable?

That depends on how your GM handles them. Some say that physads don't get
Force Points (don't start a thread about who gets them and who doesn't,
okay?) and so can't bond a focus at all; some (like me) say they do get
those Force Points, and so can use them for bonding a focus.

Some will argue the last method is unbalancing to the game, but I don't
think so -- a weapon focus costs at least 190,000 nuyen at character
generation, so you need priority A or B for Resources to even think aout
buying one. Since B is given up to Magic (assuming the character's human),
that leaves A for Resources, and C and D for skills and attributes.

Using the points-based system from the Companion, it states physads get no
Force Points for buying spells etc.; they only get points equal to their
Magic Attribute to buy physad powers with.
However if your GM allows the second method I mentioned above, you could
just ignore that and give him/her Force Points after all, and do not use
those Force Points to buy powers from.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:28:02 -0500
You wrote:
> In a message dated 97-09-13 14:32:33 EDT, you write:

> > Greetings all. While pondering the creation of a Phys-ad, Something arose
> > as a problem and I can't find an answer anywhere:
> >
> > How does a Phys-ad Bond a Weapon Foci at character creation or is that not
> > feasable?

> Some of the points used for giving the pc skills would be used for th bonding
> purpose. The number of points it takes equals the rating of the weapon
> foci.

I really don't see the problem people seem to have with giving the Physad the
Force Points equivalent to those a magician receives for the same Resources
level. After all, is a powerful weapon focus more unbalancing than the rating
8 or so power focus a shaman could bond at chargen? Such a character would be
putting their A priority in Resources to get a powerful weapon focus, instead
of putting it into attributes or skills...

losthalo
Message no. 13
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:32:06 -0500
You wrote:
> Shaun, force points would not work, the skill points would be better. Think
> of it, if the player took the time to save up the karma to bond the item in
> the course of a comapign, then think of the stunting of the skills that the
> pc could have developed along the way. Instead of putting the points into
> skills, they put it into a weapon foci instead.
But magicians get those force points without giving up anything in other areas
of the character, they get to use them as they see fit for spells or bonding
foci and spell locks at chargen. The physad gives up their A priority to
Resources in order to have a badass weapon focus anyway, that leaves them a
little dry in either skills or attributes (which will get the C and D
priorities between them). He's now got a magical item in place of points in
attributes (which will cost him karma to raise later) and it's both vulnerable
in astral where he can't defend it, and is good for only one thing: melee.
Hiding a +1 Reach size weapon isn't easy, and if it's small it's a lot less
scary. He's given up a lot for that monster combat ability which is only
semi-useful, imo.

losthalo
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:41:21 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-14 07:07:23 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:

> Some will argue the last method is unbalancing to the game, but I don't
> think so -- a weapon focus costs at least 190,000 nuyen at character
> generation, so you need priority A or B for Resources to even think aout
> buying one. Since B is given up to Magic (assuming the character's human),
> that leaves A for Resources, and C and D for skills and attributes.
>
Just a quick note, you do NOT need that much money. Short Swords do the same
amount of damage, but do not have the reach bonus modifier, hence do not cost
half as much. Also, I wonder if anyone, especially the GM's have considered
the following?

A specific person foci. It could lower the bonding cost modifier for the
individual in question, similar to the way a spell-drain is reduced. It does
however function as a far better link to the person, but no one except the
individual can ever use it (which cuts down it's resale value on the
Talismonger's end).

-K
Message no. 15
From: Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:17:44 -0700
>
> A specific person foci. It could lower the bonding cost modifier for the
> individual in question, similar to the way a spell-drain is reduced. It
does
> however function as a far better link to the person, but no one except
the
> individual can ever use it (which cuts down it's resale value on the
> Talismonger's end).
>
> -K
Interesting concept, but the only way I can think of off hand to
arrange it would be to have the specific person for whom the item was
designed participate in the enchanting process, and donate the karma to
create the item. Even then I think that the costs associated with the item
would go up as such personalization would be a nice added feature not a
cost cutting concession. This is just my opinion, not an attempt at rules
clarification please treat it accordingly.

Shaun
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:51:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-14 12:34:25 EDT, Hard.master@********.ATT.NET
writes:

> Interesting concept, but the only way I can think of off hand to
> arrange it would be to have the specific person for whom the item was
> designed participate in the enchanting process, and donate the karma to
> create the item. Even then I think that the costs associated with the item
> would go up as such personalization would be a nice added feature not a
> cost cutting concession. This is just my opinion, not an attempt at rules
> clarification please treat it accordingly.
>
> Shaun
>
Actually, I agree with you entirely. The individual, or at the very least
that person's True Aura/True Name/True Pattern (for all you ED types) would
have to be known by the enchanter in question. Also, units (liters?) of
blood could then become unique arcanum, say every unit after the first
counting.

And by the term "resale" value, I meant literally "reselling" the
item,
beyond it's original owner. None of this "ooh, he's got foci, grab 'em,
we'll get good cash back on those" by the party/looters in question.

It is something we've done here for a while now. Actually, the party like's
some of these ideas. Though they are dangerous if they are lost, they like
paying less karma for something.
-K

PS (Mike, no commenting on the Karma/Enchanting Stuff)
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:42:16 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 10:41/14 Sep 97...

> > Some will argue the last method is unbalancing to the game, but I don't
> > think so -- a weapon focus costs at least 190,000 nuyen
>
> Just a quick note, you do NOT need that much money. Short Swords do
> the same amount of damage, but do not have the reach bonus modifier,
> hence do not cost half as much.

190,000 nuyen is the absolute minimum cost for a weapon focus: its formula
is (Reach + 1) x 100,000 + rating x 90,000. A reach 0 weapon, let's say a
knife, at rating 1 therefore costs 190,000 nuyen. Any halfway useful
weapon focus will set you back around half a million...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:13:05 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-14 12:34:28 EDT, you write:

> Interesting concept, but the only way I can think of off hand to
> arrange it would be to have the specific person for whom the item was
> designed participate in the enchanting process, and donate the karma to
> create the item. Even then I think that the costs associated with the item
> would go up as such personalization would be a nice added feature not a
> cost cutting concession. This is just my opinion, not an attempt at rules
> clarification please treat it accordingly.

The actual nuyen cost to create the item would increase dramatically (double
to triple normal cost), as for the karma cost, it would drop in half, just as
per personalized cyberware (at least that is what Keith and I use in the home
game here).
Message no. 19
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:37:08 EDT
On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:22:42 -0400 Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM> writes:
>
>Shaun, force points would not work, the skill points would be better.
Think
>of it, if the player took the time to save up the karma to bond the item
in
>the course of a comapign, then think of the stunting of the skills that
the
>pc could have developed along the way. Instead of putting the points
into
>skills, they put it into a weapon foci instead.

There's one, very LARGE problem with that. To get a new skill to five at
character creation, it costs five points. To get a new skill to five
using Karma, you need(2+4+6+8+10=)30 Karma points. The situations don't
mesh. Stick with the printed Optional Rules in SRComp.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 20
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:37:08 EDT
On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:07:44 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>
> Yea! It's the original question that lead me into a long flame war
>when I first joined the list. The answer is NO, although the list in
>general doesn't like that ruling. Three sources can be pointed out for
>this, first edition Grimoire, Beyond the Shadows: The Shadowrun
>Companion, and Mike Mulvihill himself speaking for FASA. I've begged for
>Steve Kenson to clarify this in the upcoming third edition. The first
>edition Grimoire rules that if the adept does not cast spells then it
>gets no force points at CharGen. I still strongly support this ruling.

<Timidly raising hand> Ummm, excuse me, but what about the optional rule
in SRCompanion that says you may use force points in place of karma for
the bonding of foci, creating ally spirits, etc.? Where is that
overruled?

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 21
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:58:01 -0400
George H Metz once dared to write,

><Timidly raising hand> Ummm, excuse me, but what about the optional rule
>in SRCompanion that says you may use force points in place of karma for
>the bonding of foci, creating ally spirits, etc.? Where is that
>overruled?

<Grrrrr....>
That's IF you get them. OK check this, Bonding with spell points
(later renamed force points) has been around in unwritten form since
Shadowrun first came out. The archetypes with spell locks did bond with
them with their force points. Grimoire 1st clearly pointed out that to
get force points you have to Cast Spells! Unfortunately since most of the
Appendix that rule appeared in became unnecessary with the 2nd CharGen
the force points was overlooked. I'll explain the reason why spellcasters
should be the only one to get force points. When a Spellcaster spends his
force points on anything else besides his spells he is sacrificing from
his ability. If the other adepts had spell points as well, bonding (and
any other option you may allow) is all they can do with those points. It
equates to an advantage the spellcasting adepts (and full magicians for
that matter) don't have. Adept are not full magicians and shouldn't
expect to have all the same powers and resources the full magicians have.
Another way you should look at adepts is that they only have powers
related to what they do, not as missing some of the powers of the full
magician. To clarify what this means is that force points is derived from
spellcasting and not from simply having any magical power.
This has never been too obvious of the PhysAd. In a straight up
comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
their status.

- MC23, who keeps hurting his hand trying to type in a cast -
B>[#
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:47:17 -0600
MC23 wrote:
|
| In a straight up
| comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
| I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
| undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
| enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
| else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
| their status.

<idea> Priority C PAs receive 1 ability point per 1 magic point, priority B
PAs have a ratio of 1.5:1, priority A PAs a ratio of 2:1. </idea>

| - MC23, who keeps hurting his hand trying to type in a cast -
| B>[#

Dare I ask how you ended up wearing a cast? :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 23
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:38:19 -0500
You wrote:
> Adept are not full magicians and shouldn't
> expect to have all the same powers and resources the full magicians have.
True, but Conjuring adepts have access to Force points for SPirit Foci, do they
not? Do Sorcery Adepts have access to Force points for Spell locks, Power
Foci, Fetish Foci, etc.? If the Physad is spending a high priority (A or B) on
resources, I think they should get all the benefits and advantages thereof.
Otherwise I think you're giving a further advantage to 'full' magicians above
their assensing abilities and diversity of magic wielding.

> Another way you should look at adepts is that they only have powers
> related to what they do, not as missing some of the powers of the full
> magician. To clarify what this means is that force points is derived from
> spellcasting and not from simply having any magical power.
I disagree. If a character is willing to take Resources A to get one
measly focus, I don't have a problem with it. They're giving up a lot of
potential to get it, that seems a very fair trade to me. Their max in starting
attributes is now 20 points, rather than _30_. Ten attribute points for an
advantage that is only good in melee, and only when the character can carry
their sword/club/whatever with them (it's not very concealable).Otherwise, you have to
prevent
Conjuring adepts from having Spirit Foci at creation, too, because they have
nothing else to do with their Force points... Letting a full magician outstrip
a conjuring adept in conjuring simply because they can spend some of their
resources on foci disallowed to the conjurer seems unfair to me.

> This has never been too obvious of the PhysAd. In a straight up
> comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
> I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
> undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
> enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
> else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
> their status.
They are only as undetectable as any full magician.

losthalo
Message no. 24
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:54:43 -0500
At 02:47 PM 9/16/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
#MC23 wrote:
#|
#| In a straight up
#| comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
#| I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
#| undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
#| enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
#| else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
#| their status.
#
#<idea> Priority C PAs receive 1 ability point per 1 magic point, priority B
#PAs have a ratio of 1.5:1, priority A PAs a ratio of 2:1. </idea>

now THAT could be rather interesting.

Priority D receive .5 ability point per MP

Could be fun

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 25
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:07:09 -0600
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> | In a straight up
> | comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
>
> <idea> Priority C PAs receive 1 ability point per 1 magic point, priority B
> PAs have a ratio of 1.5:1, priority A PAs a ratio of 2:1. </idea>
>

IMC, I just changed physical adept abilities to 2 ability points per magic
point. I've been running for over a year, and the only problem I had with
it was the major powergamer who created a killing machine with every
single point toward doing more hand-to-hand damage. That was all he could
do and that character didn't last long because he was boring as hell. (My
game requires quite a bit of thinking and use of skills.)

I feel it balances PhysAds with the Sams.


See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
Message no. 26
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:34:52 -0500
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> MC23 wrote:
> |
> | In a straight up
> | comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
> | I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
> | undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
> | enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
> | else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
> | their status.
>
> <idea> Priority C PAs receive 1 ability point per 1 magic point, priority B
> PAs have a ratio of 1.5:1, priority A PAs a ratio of 2:1. </idea>

You're kidding right? You actually _want_ a physad with 12 points worth
of abilities running around? Can we say munchkin?

-Q

---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 27
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:33:21 -0500
At 05:34 PM 9/16/97 -0500, Q (not from Star Trek) wrote:
#On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, David Buehrer wrote:
#
#> MC23 wrote:
#> |
#> | In a straight up
#> | comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
#> | I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
#> | undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
#> | enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
#> | else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
#> | their status.
#>
#> <idea> Priority C PAs receive 1 ability point per 1 magic point, priority B
#> PAs have a ratio of 1.5:1, priority A PAs a ratio of 2:1. </idea>
#
#You're kidding right? You actually _want_ a physad with 12 points worth
#of abilities running around? Can we say munchkin?

from what I've read on the list, there are a few people who gives two
points per point already, and they don't sound too horrified by it
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 28
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:35:22 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-14 15:45:46 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:

>
> 190,000 nuyen is the absolute minimum cost for a weapon focus: its formula
> is (Reach + 1) x 100,000 + rating x 90,000. A reach 0 weapon, let's say a
> knife, at rating 1 therefore costs 190,000 nuyen. Any halfway useful
> weapon focus will set you back around half a million...
>
That's interesting...I have a copy of the Shadowrun book with an "x" instead
of a "+". Oh geesh, I've (okay, Binder's) been shafted for years.
-K
Message no. 29
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:36:12 -0500
At 07:35 PM 9/16/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote:
#In a message dated 97-09-14 15:45:46 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:
#
#>
#> 190,000 nuyen is the absolute minimum cost for a weapon focus: its formula
#> is (Reach + 1) x 100,000 + rating x 90,000. A reach 0 weapon, let's say a
#> knife, at rating 1 therefore costs 190,000 nuyen. Any halfway useful
#> weapon focus will set you back around half a million...
#>
#That's interesting...I have a copy of the Shadowrun book with an "x" instead
#of a "+". Oh geesh, I've (okay, Binder's) been shafted for years.

so, a rating 1 weapon focus would be 9,000,000,000?????
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 30
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:03:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-16 18:35:12 EDT, Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU writes:

>
> You're kidding right? You actually _want_ a physad with 12 points worth
> of abilities running around? Can we say munchkin?
>
> -Q
Not munchkin, just more powerful than some are willing to do. Munchkin would
mean those 12 points are in Distance Strike, Killing Hands and Improved
Reflexes, Level 3 (is that more than 12 btw)?
-K
Message no. 31
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:07:28 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-16 19:47:27 EDT, justin@******.NET writes:

> #That's interesting...I have a copy of the Shadowrun book with an "x"
instead
> #of a "+". Oh geesh, I've (okay, Binder's) been shafted for years.
>
> so, a rating 1 weapon focus would be 9,000,000,000?????
>
No, sorry...it meant that a Reach of "0", would indicate a 90,000 nuyen
object/weapon foci.
-K
Message no. 32
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:21:49 -0400
David Buehrer once dared to write,

><idea> Priority C PAs receive 1 ability point per 1 magic point, priority B
>PAs have a ratio of 1.5:1, priority A PAs a ratio of 2:1. </idea>

Seems like it might get a little unbalanced with the higher picks.
>
>| - MC23, who keeps hurting his hand trying to type in a cast -
>| B>[#
>
>Dare I ask how you ended up wearing a cast? :)

I punched something that was much harder than my fist. B>[#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Many people bury their demons away never to be seen. Others deny the
existance of theirs. A rare few can make peace with their demons and find
tranquility. I take mine out for coffee and sometimes, I let them drive.

I am MC23
Message no. 33
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:22:44 -0400
Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 once dared to write,

>You wrote:
>> Adept are not full magicians and shouldn't
>> expect to have all the same powers and resources the full magicians have.
>True, but Conjuring adepts have access to Force points for SPirit Foci, do
>they not? Do Sorcery Adepts have access to Force points for Spell locks,
Power
>Foci, Fetish Foci, etc.? If the Physad is spending a high priority (A or
>B) on resources, I think they should get all the benefits and advantages
>thereof. Otherwise I think you're giving a further advantage to 'full'
>magicians above their assensing abilities and diversity of magic wielding.

Well if I want to use your logic then I want my mundanes to have
force points since they paid for it with their resources as well. Why
not? I could make a full burn-out with no magic left (Priority D let's
say in Magic) who still has active spell locks from when he could cast
spells. For that matter he might still recall a few spells that he can't
cast but could teach to others.
To answer your first question 1st edition rules says you have to be
able to cast spells to get force points at CharGen. 2nd edition says
nothing either way and FASAMike himself finally fessed up that Physads
get no force points as Official FASA Ruling but nothing on the other
adepts. He did say he might consider a reduced force total for use as a
personal ruling.
Adepts are limited. They aren't some way to save some points when
creating regular magicians. The are an extremely limited form of
magician. You need to remember that.
>
>> Another way you should look at adepts is that they only have powers
>> related to what they do, not as missing some of the powers of the full
>> magician. To clarify what this means is that force points is derived from
>> spellcasting and not from simply having any magical power.
>I disagree. If a character is willing to take Resources A to get one
>measly focus, I don't have a problem with it. They're giving up a lot of
>potential to get it, that seems a very fair trade to me. Their max in
>starting attributes is now 20 points, rather than _30_. Ten attribute points
>for an advantage that is only good in melee, and only when the character can
>carry their sword/club/whatever with them (it's not very concealable).
>Otherwise, you have to prevent Conjuring adepts from having Spirit Foci at
>creation, too, because they have nothing else to do with their Force points...
>Letting a full magician outstrip a conjuring adept in conjuring simply because
>they can spend some of their resources on foci disallowed to the conjurer
seems
>unfair to me.

Conjuring adepts don't cast spells. Are you not paying full
attention to what I was saying. Since they don't cast spells they don't
get force points! A full Magician does outstrip an adept (Another basics
of what I've been saying). That is what a priority A pick means. View the
A pick as the higher version of the Conjuring adept to get a better feel
of why they are treated differently.
>
>> This has never been too obvious of the PhysAd. In a straight up
>> comparison the PhysAd will appear weaker than other magicians or Sammies.
>> I feel a lot of this is balanced out in campaign play in the more or less
>> undetectable nature of their abilities. I still won't say this balances
>> enough but I will never give them force points to bond with or anything
>> else for that matter. Maybe changing their priority to a C could help
>> their status.
>They are only as undetectable as any full magician.

But when the magician uses his powers he risks drawing attention to
himself on the astral and worse, since he risks being grounded through
depending on the situation. PhysAds have only a few abilities that
responded to astrally.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 34
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:51:55 -0500
You wrote:
> Well if I want to use your logic then I want my mundanes to have
> force points since they paid for it with their resources as well. Why
> not? I could make a full burn-out with no magic left (Priority D let's
> say in Magic) who still has active spell locks from when he could cast
> spells. For that matter he might still recall a few spells that he can't
> cast but could teach to others.
I don't see the problem here. *shrug*

> To answer your first question 1st edition rules says you have to be
> able to cast spells to get force points at CharGen. 2nd edition says
> nothing either way and FASAMike himself finally fessed up that Physads
> get no force points as Official FASA Ruling but nothing on the other
> adepts. He did say he might consider a reduced force total for use as a
> personal ruling.
I'm not arguing about official rulings, I'm talking about what seems to make
sense (and am severely puzzled about why people worry over a physad who happens
to have a weapon focus at character generation rather than saving some karma
and nuyen and buying the bloody thing, as opposed to a magician who they don't
mind having foci at chargen).

> Adepts are limited. They aren't some way to save some points when
> creating regular magicians. The are an extremely limited form of
> magician. You need to remember that.
1) I didn't say they were a way to save some points. I don't think my argument
led in that direction at all, and I'm perplexed as to what brought that on. I
figure no access to astral and use of only one magical skill is pretty bloody
limited for B instead of A priority.

> Conjuring adepts don't cast spells. Are you not paying full
> attention to what I was saying.
I was paying attention don't treat me like an imbecile. It irks me when people
think that everything they write is so obvious that anyone is a fool to
disagree or offer an alternate point of view.

I could prolly belabor this further, but I'm not going to bother.

losthalo
Message no. 35
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:14:22 -0400
> There's one, very LARGE problem with that. To get a new skill to five at
>character creation, it costs five points. To get a new skill to five
>using Karma, you need(2+4+6+8+10=)30 Karma points. The situations don't
>mesh. Stick with the printed Optional Rules in SRComp.
>

Character generation represents years of putting together these skills.
Buying them later on is adding to your base set of skills. Not taking 18+
years. Even with the SRComp it might take 18 weeks to get your self to a
higher level in the worst case scenario. In the main book it just pay your
karma and blammo instant higher skills level instantly. As for the optional
rules the only optional rules is for using a point system and making
characters take time to learn a skill.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I summon the unholy demons of Apathy, Sarcasm and Cynicism!!

Wally from the Dilbert comics

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 36
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:43:01 -0400
Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 once dared to write,

>> Well if I want to use your logic then I want my mundanes to have
>> force points since they paid for it with their resources as well. Why
>> not? I could make a full burn-out with no magic left (Priority D let's
>> say in Magic) who still has active spell locks from when he could cast
>> spells. For that matter he might still recall a few spells that he can't
>> cast but could teach to others.
>I don't see the problem here. *shrug*

Then we'll never see eye to eye. <sigh>

>I'm not arguing about official rulings, I'm talking about what seems to make
>sense (and am severely puzzled about why people worry over a physad who
>happens to have a weapon focus at character generation rather than saving
>some karma and nuyen and buying the bloody thing, as opposed to a magician
>who they don't mind having foci at chargen).

Because the Magician is taking away from something else to do so. It
works out to be more of a free bonus for the PhysAd.

>> Adepts are limited. They aren't some way to save some points when
>> creating regular magicians. The are an extremely limited form of
>> magician. You need to remember that.
>1) I didn't say they were a way to save some points. I don't think my
>argument led in that direction at all, and I'm perplexed as to what brought
>that on. I figure no access to astral and use of only one magical skill is
>pretty bloody limited for B instead of A priority.

That's only just the surface. A B pick in resources is only 40% of
the A pick in nuyen but there is no uproar about that. The Priority scale
is a logarithmic scale. There can be a great difference between an A and
the B priorities.

>> Conjuring adepts don't cast spells. Are you not paying full
>> attention to what I was saying.
>I was paying attention don't treat me like an imbecile. It irks me when
>people think that everything they write is so obvious that anyone is a fool
>to disagree or offer an alternate point of view.

No, I'm irked because every time this topic comes up I have to
perpetually repeat that spellcasting is the qualifier on who gets force
points, then I go on to explain why it is. I keep repeating the
spellcasting qualification like a mantra. Using a conjuring adept as your
example to me like you did after all I've said doesn't show any
reflection on what I've said.
>I could prolly belabor this further, but I'm not going to bother.

Well if you do, please try to understand what the other person is
saying so your response will stay relevant to what you're replying to.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 37
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:34:58 EDT
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:58:01 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>
>><Timidly raising hand> Ummm, excuse me, but what about the optional
rule
>>in SRCompanion that says you may use force points in place of karma for
>>the bonding of foci, creating ally spirits, etc.? Where is that
>>overruled?
>
><Grrrrr....>
> That's IF you get them. OK check this, Bonding with spell points
>(later renamed force points) has been around in unwritten form since

<Snip long explanation...>

Alrighty then. Take a look at what I mean though. I'm NOT saying that
when you spend your 15 points at chargen to become a Physad, you get 30
force points. You still have to spend Build Points to buy the Force
Points necessary to bond the weapon focus. In a way, you can look at it
as a purchase of Karma to be spent on bonding foci. I don't have the
SRComp at the moment, so I can't be sure, but unless I'm mistaken, it
doesn't say under magical adept that they get 30 force points only if
they're a spellcaster.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 38
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:34:58 EDT
On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:14:22 -0400 NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
writes:
>> There's one, very LARGE problem with that. To get a new skill to five
at
>>character creation, it costs five points. To get a new skill to five
>>using Karma, you need(2+4+6+8+10=)30 Karma points. The situations don't
>>mesh. Stick with the printed Optional Rules in SRComp.
>>
>
>Character generation represents years of putting together these skills.
>Buying them later on is adding to your base set of skills. Not taking
18+
>years. Even with the SRComp it might take 18 weeks to get your self to a
>higher level in the worst case scenario. In the main book it just pay
your
>karma and blammo instant higher skills level instantly. As for the
optional
>rules the only optional rules is for using a point system and making
>characters take time to learn a skill.

Umm, Nightlife, you do realize that you COMPLETELY removed the context
of what I was talking about, right? As I remember, it was along the lines
of using skill points to bond foci at character creation, instead of
Force points, which is somewhat absurd due to the difference in the
amount of "karma" you would spend.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 39
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:34:58 EDT
On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:22:44 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 once dared to write,
>
> Well if I want to use your logic then I want my mundanes to have
>force points since they paid for it with their resources as well. Why
>not? I could make a full burn-out with no magic left (Priority D let's
>say in Magic) who still has active spell locks from when he could cast
>spells. For that matter he might still recall a few spells that he can't
>cast but could teach to others.

Actually, that sounds like a really good NPC type of character, or even
better, an experienced player's character in an inexperienced group.

> Conjuring adepts don't cast spells. Are you not paying full
>attention to what I was saying. Since they don't cast spells they don't
>get force points! A full Magician does outstrip an adept (Another basics
>of what I've been saying). That is what a priority A pick means. View
the
>A pick as the higher version of the Conjuring adept to get a better feel
>of why they are treated differently.

And you, I regret to say, aren't paying as much attention to the books as
you should. And I quote(well, paraphrase), "I can't do as much as some,
but what I can do, I do better than anyone else." That is almost word for
word the quote from Gimoire II by a Sorceror Adept. A Sorceror Adept is
JUST as good as a full magician at casting spells on the physical, a
Conjuror Adept is JUST as good as a full magician at summoning spirits,
an Astral Adept is JUST as good as a full magician at astral perception,
projection, travel, and combat, etc. All an Adept is is a magically
active character who has a narrower focus. In other words, They are just
as good in their area as anyone else. A Sorceror Adept who has initiated
will cast spells more effectively than a full mage or shaman who hasn't.
The only difference is, the Sorceror Adept can't astrally
percieve/project, cannot enchant, and cannot summon spirits. He's focused
everything on Sorcery. THAT is the only advantage a mage has, and even
that isn't so hot, 'cause a full-boat magician has less possible skill
points, as well as less of the points they do take to round out, because
they need to take Sorcery, Conjuring, Enchanting, and Magical Theory to
fully utilize their abilities, instead of a Sorceror's Sorcery and
possibly Magical Theory.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:31:54 +0100
George H Metz said on 6:37/16 Sep 97...

> <Timidly raising hand> Ummm, excuse me, but what about the optional rule
> in SRCompanion that says you may use force points in place of karma for
> the bonding of foci, creating ally spirits, etc.? Where is that
> overruled?

It's overrules because MC23 doesn't like 99% of the stuff that's in the
Companion.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:31:55 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 19:35/16 Sep 97...

> > 190,000 nuyen is the absolute minimum cost for a weapon focus: its formula
> > is (Reach + 1) x 100,000 + rating x 90,000. A reach 0 weapon, let's say a
> > knife, at rating 1 therefore costs 190,000 nuyen. Any halfway useful
> > weapon focus will set you back around half a million...
> >
> That's interesting...I have a copy of the Shadowrun book with an "x"
instead
> of a "+". Oh geesh, I've (okay, Binder's) been shafted for years.

For the first or the second "+"? For the first, it makes weapon foci
cheaper, while for the second it makes them almost impossible to get hold
of (can you imagine paying 9 million nuyen multiplied by the rating by
(Reach+1)?).

BTW, the book I took this from is the SRII hardback, so there is a
possibility it got changed in one of the reprints, though it seems
unlikely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 42
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:30:53 -0400
George H Metz once dared to write,

>And you, I regret to say, aren't paying as much attention to the books as
>you should. And I quote(well, paraphrase), "I can't do as much as some,
>but what I can do, I do better than anyone else."
<snip rest>

That's because of having a narrow focus to spend karma on. The =
Adept isn't trying to cover all or even most of the magical feild =
because he couldn't if he wanted to. I don't see where this should be =
taken as the adept should get a bonus at CharGen (except for the =
obvious lower priority for magic). I wouldn't neccasarily take a =
character quote as hard core rules. In Plus ça Change the Sammie =
talked about moving at 70kph even though this isn't possible in the =
rules. (Running movement is only once per turn not per action by the =
book.)

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><=
>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal =
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect =
themselves, they answered to another name, because if another =
discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 43
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:33:47 -0400
Gurth once dared to write,

>It's overrules because MC23 doesn't like 99% of the stuff that's in the
>Companion.

George acknowledged the rule was optional so I saw no reason to
bitch about it. I guess the newer members should have been warned about
my strong feelings on the subject though.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"One can't complain. I have my friends.
Somebody spoke to me only yesterday."
-Eeyore, Winnie-the-Pooh

I am MC23
Message no. 44
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:48:21 -0400
George H Metz once dared to write,

> Alrighty then. Take a look at what I mean though. I'm NOT saying that
>when you spend your 15 points at chargen to become a Physad, you get 30
>force points. You still have to spend Build Points to buy the Force
>Points necessary to bond the weapon focus. In a way, you can look at it
>as a purchase of Karma to be spent on bonding foci. I don't have the
>SRComp at the moment, so I can't be sure, but unless I'm mistaken, it
>doesn't say under magical adept that they get 30 force points only if
>they're a spellcaster.

I must have said that was OK in a different post. That I have no
problem with and feel that is how it should be handled. I still don't use
the point system. And SRC does say that the PhysAd doesn't get force
point with the 15 pt cost of being a PhysAd. No where has FASA ever
clarified the subject since Grimoire 1st edition. Since PhysAds are the
most common of the Non-spellcasting adepts they have been the one I've
seen still mentioned as under this ruling. Since they are still subject
to the original rule there is no reason that the other non-spellcasters
wouldn't be simply by omission in newer products. I support the old rule
by virtue of game balance.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 45
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts and Weapon Foci
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:40:11 -0400
>>> There's one, very LARGE problem with that. To get a new skill to five at
>>>character creation, it costs five points. To get a new skill to five
>>>using Karma, you need(2+4+6+8+10=)30 Karma points. The situations don't
>>>mesh. Stick with the printed Optional Rules in SRComp.
>>>
>>
>>Character generation represents years of putting together these skills.
>>Buying them later on is adding to your base set of skills. Not taking
>>18+years. Even with the SRComp it might take 18 weeks to get your self to a
>>higher level in the worst case scenario. In the main book it just pay
>>your karma and blammo instant higher skills level instantly. As for the
>>optional rules the only optional rules is for using a point system and making
>>characters take time to learn a skill.
>
> Umm, Nightlife, you do realize that you COMPLETELY removed the context
>of what I was talking about, right? As I remember, it was along the lines
>of using skill points to bond foci at character creation, instead of
>Force points, which is somewhat absurd due to the difference in the
>amount of "karma" you would spend.

Actually the response was to what seemed like a complaint on how much karma
it takes to raise skills as opposed to the point it takes in char creation.
It was late, I was tired nuff said.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I summon the unholy demons of Apathy, Sarcasm and Cynicism!!

Wally from the Dilbert comics

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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