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Message no. 1
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.uch.gr>
Subject: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:51:37 +0300 (EET DST)
As one might guess from looking at Awakenings, or any fiction text, PAs in
Shadowrun are described as extremely fast, and everybody speaks about them
in awe.
However, as one can easily see, they sure are slower than a street sam.

So I think that to make up for this (if one wants to), a GM can allow the
rule of six to apply to all of a PA's initiative dice.
Comments?

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 2
From: Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:28:28 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Technomancer wrote:

> As one might guess from looking at Awakenings, or any fiction text, PAs in
> Shadowrun are described as extremely fast, and everybody speaks about them
> in awe.
> However, as one can easily see, they sure are slower than a street sam.
>
> So I think that to make up for this (if one wants to), a GM can allow the
> rule of six to apply to all of a PA's initiative dice.
> Comments?
>

Interesting idea. It could be a phys ad power (1 or 2 magic points to
purchase) that allows the rule of six to be used on initiative. Or
possibly a phys ad power that allows the use of personal karma pool to
modify (re-roll and/or add dice to) the initiative roll.

Jon Wright
Message no. 3
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 18:32:13 +0000
On 13 Sep 96 at 11:34, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
[snip]
> This is not the PhysAd vs Sammie thread, isn't' it? Tell me this is not
> for real... :)
Somehow we _had_ to get you out of lurking! :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 4
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 18:32:13 +0000
On 13 Sep 96 at 1:47, Loki wrote:
[Critters to detect PhysAds]
> A Century Ferret would work really well here. Mana Sense and then their
> allergy to mana would definitely have them reacting when they sensed
> some magical abilities on you.
Hm, PNAoNA p. 11 states: "MANA DETECTION: The creature with Mana Detection can
detect and localize the manipulation of magical energy within a range of
(Essence)D6 x 10 meters."

With "manipulation" I thought this would refer to active manipulating, as
casting spells, summoning, or maybe using active powers (like hypnotic song,
or alienation), but no passive ones (like egeneration or the PhysAd powers),
but I have to admit, this seems to be up to the individual GM (and players, of
course).

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 5
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:23:19 +0000
On 13 Sep 96 at 11:27, Mark Steedman wrote:
[snip]
> > The PA falls over, you heal him and he gets up again.
> >
> Assuming good essence. I ban heal/treat deadly to stop over
> advantaging the essence 6 folks.
You do _What_???

You ban healing of deadly damage because people with Essence 6 might gain an
advantage from it? Those people who refused to have a few fistful of wires
stuffed into them? Those people that turn down the advantages of Cyber- and
Bioware?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 6
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:54:15 -0700
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> On 13 Sep 96 at 1:47, Loki wrote:
> [Critters to detect PhysAds]
> > A Century Ferret would work really well here. Mana Sense and then their
> > allergy to mana would definitely have them reacting when they sensed
> > some magical abilities on you.
> Hm, PNAoNA p. 11 states: "MANA DETECTION: The creature with Mana Detection can
> detect and localize the manipulation of magical energy within a range of
> (Essence)D6 x 10 meters."
>
> With "manipulation" I thought this would refer to active manipulating, as
> casting spells, summoning, or maybe using active powers (like hypnotic song,
> or alienation), but no passive ones (like egeneration or the PhysAd powers),
> but I have to admit, this seems to be up to the individual GM (and players, of
> course).
>
> Sascha

If they're not manipulating the astral energy, how do you think it's
giving them they're abilities. I'd say anyone with a magic attribute is
manipulating the astral energies around them, even if it be
subconsciously. Look at how they described Sam Verner in the secrets of
power, before he'd even answered the call of Dog.

But as you said, it's my personal GM's opinion...


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 7
From: IEngelmann@***.com
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:23:00 -0400
>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Ferri Pagano wrote:
>> "by the book"if you allow some things most gm's don't physads ARE the
>fastest,
>> by around an extra 3+3d6 above what anyone else can reach. But the rule of
>six
>> might be a nicer one if you [as I ] don't like cybered physads.
>>
>Unless a player is a munchkin and a GM bully, how many GMs let physAds
>use those spells? And even in cases where they do, the physAds' spells
>need to be cast by someone else. Kill the mage, or ground through the
>spell locks or use an astral mage to dispell the quickenings.

In our campaign we have no problems with the rule of 6. I don't see why they
have to be munchkins (Yeah, I hate that word, too!). YMKIM that if the PCs
could do this so could the others. You don't have to dispel such enhancements
(Ok, I must admit it's quite fun to shock the players a little bit.) But just
let the others have these enhancements too and everything is quite fine.

Ilja Engelmann (Germany, male)
Message no. 8
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 23:00:34 -0500 (EST)
Sascha wrote-

>> Assuming good essence. I ban heal/treat deadly to stop over
>> advantaging the essence 6 folks.
>You do _What_???
>
>You ban healing of deadly damage because people with Essence 6 might gain an
>advantage from it? Those people who refused to have a few fistful of wires
>stuffed into them? Those people that turn down the advantages of Cyber- and
>Bioware?
>
>
Well said...



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:42:52 +0100
Paolo Marcucci said on 11:34/13 Sep 96...

> This is not the PhysAd vs Sammie thread, isn't' it? Tell me this is not
> for real... :)

I think it's just about the healing aspects, not the combat abilities. No
need to worry just yet :)

(Is it a sign of old age when you think with almost all the threads you
see "Didn't we just have this one the other week?" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We run and don't look back.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:42:52 +0100
Loki said on 1:58/13 Sep 96...

> If your comparison were to be fair, it would take the Phys-Ad days to
> heal without magical help too. ;o)

I think what she meant was that healing a physical adept with a Treat
spell has a TN of 2, while using the same spell on a typical street sam
(not the FASA-supplied one, mind :) would result in TNs of 10 or higher.
With the 2, you're getting just about nothing but successes, while with he
10 you're lucky to get one or two. Conclusion? The physad is up and going
in about a minute, tops, while the sam has to relax for days while healing
naturally.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We run and don't look back.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 11
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:30:37 -0600 (CST)
Gurth wrote:

>Loki said on 1:58/13 Sep 96...
>
>> If your comparison were to be fair, it would take the Phys-Ad days to
>> heal without magical help too. ;o)
>
>I think what she meant was that healing a physical adept with a Treat
>spell has a TN of 2, while using the same spell on a typical street sam
>(not the FASA-supplied one, mind :) would result in TNs of 10 or higher.
>With the 2, you're getting just about nothing but successes, while with he
>10 you're lucky to get one or two. Conclusion? The physad is up and going
>in about a minute, tops, while the sam has to relax for days while healing
>naturally.
>

And I believe the spell description says that you can only cast Treat or
Heal once for a given wound. No second attempts at this one.

Piatro
Message no. 12
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 01:29:12 -0500 (EST)
>And I believe the spell description says that you can only cast Treat or
>Heal once for a given wound. No second attempts at this one.

That's correct. One shot only for healing magic.


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I don't care who he is, he's not touching MY chick!"
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 20:05:59 +1100
>I think what she meant was that healing a physical adept with a Treat
>spell has a TN of 2, while using the same spell on a typical street sam
>(not the FASA-supplied one, mind :) would result in TNs of 10 or higher.
>With the 2, you're getting just about nothing but successes, while with he
>10 you're lucky to get one or two. Conclusion? The physad is up and going
>in about a minute, tops, while the sam has to relax for days while healing
>naturally.

Hmm... TN of 10, uh? Gee, now Treat has a target of 8 - Essence. Is
cybermancy THAT common in your game, Gurth?
(Okay, you've got bioware, but that's just to heal that part)


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 14
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:54:57 +1000 (EST)
> > Mayor
> > advantage of a PhysAd is you can't strip his "gimmicks" from him, and
they are
> > undetectable by any sensor.
>
> 'Course they fail the magic loss roll some time that have to make it and
> they're coughing up one point's worth of phys-ad abilities. ;o)

So you lose the magic point that 90% of PAs use for extra +1d6 initiative,
stick in synaptics 1 (btw, does Shadowtech's description of bioware's
effect on mages cover PAs as well?), and your wounded little PA has 0.7
body index left to stick toys in with (or 1.7 if you play our house rule).

Besides which, if the PA's smart, he/she/it won't take a Deadly in the
first place... ;)



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:05:12 +1000 (EST)
> > > *shrug* I dunno. A PhysAd with reflex increased once, some hieghtened
> > > senses, pain resistance, and unarmed combat bonuses isn't having any real
> > > advantage over a cyberguy with wired one, eye and ear replacements, and
> > > muscle replacement. Get a pain editor, instead of the replacement
> > > muscles, and they're pretty similar. Both put B in their magic or
> > > resources, and, they;'re really similar. The difference is the cyberguy
> > > can upgrade with cash... or start out a LOT better.
> >
> > More differences:
> >
> > The cyberguy gets to a certain point and is then limited by his Essence
> > and Body Index. A PA can increase indefinitely.
>
> 'Course while the Phys Ad is pumping more and more karma into
> initiating, the cyber-boy is learning new skills and improving the ones
> he has.

Well, that's true (god help us if this is turning into the much-hated
Who's Better debate...) I do agree that the sam will almost indubitably
start out better, and be better for a while, but the PA has the greater
overall potential for development. (And a cybered/biowared PA...
<shudder>) It's a bit like the case of our ex-party rigger, who had 620
Karma at the time of his retirement. The player RAN OUT OF THINGS TO DO
WITH HIS KARMA (save putting Firearms up to 15 or something ridiculous,
which the player wasn't up for) so wound up with every skill on the SKill
Web. And I mean EVERY skill.

You DO run out of things to do with your Karma, unless you're magically
active.

(Now, of course, the same player's gone in the opposite direction and is
playing a Physical Mage... *sigh*)

> Also, you seemed to forget cybermancy. <shudder>

Yep! So I did! Wouldn't you? <running away very fast>

> > The PA falls over, you heal him and he gets up again.
> >
> > The cyberguy falls over, 'tis gonna take a lot longer to heal him...
>
> The Phys-Ad takes a deadly wound, loses a magic point...bye bye various
> phys-ad abilities.

See my previous post. And that's assuming the PA TAKES a Deadly wound.
(Silly boy...)

> The cyber-boy has a part short out, brief stay at the body shop and it
> works again.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. No one character type is better than any
other. They've ALL got advantages and disadvantages. My original post was
in response to someone making it sound like a PA had NO advantages over a
sam, which is patently untrue. (Show me a sammie who can get cool stuff
like Traceless Walk, or Sixth Sense, or Missile Mastery, or Centering...)

Anyway, my favourite character is a rigger... but I got sick of being
easy meat for spells... so I'm playing a sorceror adept rigger... :)



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:07:45 +1000 (EST)
> The Jestyr wrote:
>
> > Anyway, you can probably heal a PA with a S wound, heal FULLY, in about
> > 20 seconds. It's still going to take the cyberguy DAYS to heal without
> > magical help. He may not feel it, but that next S wound is going to cause
> > him a real problem. :)
> >
> > Lady Jestyr
>
> If your comparison were to be fair, it would take the Phys-Ad days to
> heal without magical help too. ;o)

Well, that's true (I think my logic chip short-circuited).

> The heal spell is measured in turns, not combat turns, so I play the
> time measured in minutes rather than seconds. Even still, though it may
> be harder to get successes on a cyber/bio individual than a phys-ad, the
> phys-ad still stands alot more to lose when it comes to rolling the
> effects of a deadly wound (magic loss) so I don't think either one
> really wants to be on the floor in need of magical healing.

On the floor in need of magical healing = Serious Wound
On the floor in need of the morgue attendants = Deadly Wound

Yes, I *know* the spiel about magic loss and Deadly wounds, but you don't
have to take deadly wounds unless you're playing a REALLY high lethality
campaign or your GM's got it in for you. I haven't yet ever had any of my
characters take a deadly wound.

(And Joker, if you're reading this, that doesn't mean they have to start
now!)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:10:16 +1000 (EST)
> And what of the times the phys-ad is out cold and not wearing his
> medical alert bracelt stating WARNING: MAGICALLY GIFTED INDIVIDUAL. So

Well then the silly sod deserves everything he gets, doesn't he?

(Me, my character's not wearing one cause she's only got Magic of 4...)



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:24:41 +1000 (EST)
> Hmm... TN of 10, uh? Gee, now Treat has a target of 8 - Essence. Is
> cybermancy THAT common in your game, Gurth?
> (Okay, you've got bioware, but that's just to heal that part)

Is that right. I always thought that bioware target number penalty
applied to overall healing as well as to the healing of individual bioware
parts.


Ray.

_______________________________________________________________________
| 'The Universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be |
| missed.' |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: n1565842@*******.qut.edu.au or
r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au
Message no. 19
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:44:11 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

> On 13 Sep 96 at 11:27, Mark Steedman wrote:
> [snip]
> > > The PA falls over, you heal him and he gets up again.
> > >
> > Assuming good essence. I ban heal/treat deadly to stop over
> > advantaging the essence 6 folks.
> You do _What_???
>
> You ban healing of deadly damage because people with Essence 6 might gain an
> advantage from it? Those people who refused to have a few fistful of wires
> stuffed into them? Those people that turn down the advantages of Cyber- and
> Bioware?
>
This needs more comment.
It is also noteble that medkits give up at deadly wounds, you then
need a hospital. Magic healing working beyond is very nice.
Folks with an essence of 6 usually in my experience have +3D6
initative etc etc so wouldn't agin from lots of cyber, ok if i ever
manage to find some players who refrain (or can be pursuaded to) on
the wired 2, high essence mundanes may be a valid enough option.
Its somewhat a matter of preference but allowing treat spells to work
on folks on a D or more gives magic a huge! advantage over mundane
healing methods, and contemplate the idea of floks going in for cyber
surgery, mage visiting the next day and they are out, up and about!

Mark
Message no. 20
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:32:07 GMT + 2:00
<snip earlier bit>

@ This needs more comment.
@ It is also noteble that medkits give up at deadly wounds, you then
@ need a hospital. Magic healing working beyond is very nice.
@ Folks with an essence of 6 usually in my experience have +3D6
@ initative etc etc so wouldn't agin from lots of cyber, ok if i ever
@ manage to find some players who refrain (or can be pursuaded to) on
@ the wired 2, high essence mundanes may be a valid enough option.
@ Its somewhat a matter of preference but allowing treat spells to work
@ on folks on a D or more gives magic a huge! advantage over mundane
@ healing methods, and contemplate the idea of floks going in for cyber
@ surgery, mage visiting the next day and they are out, up and about!

The way that we play this is that Magic Healing speeds up the
healing rate of individuals in hospital, but as mages are rare and
healing spells drain is high the cost is prohibitive. In our system to
gain a mage to help in healing costs about 5,000 a day and you add
successes to the body roll. (Some obscure healing spell that
characters rarely bother to learn as it is slow but has lower drain).
Major spells like heal are available for characters comming out of
surgury but the chances of success are very little hence the +\-
10,000 per attempt cost (success not guarenteed). If the charater
wants a higher chance of success, how about ritual heal spells, also
available but the cost is usually very very very high. Also there is
an unstated ruling that while the character is recouperating from the
surgery the character 'learns' to control the cyberware, when there
is instant healing the character does not have time to learn how to
use the cyberware hence the character has to go back and learn, this
of course costs more money, but with the old fashioned way the
price is included.

Of course you could rule that the spell is limited in it capability
to healing a maximum of a single category!

My 0.02




Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 21
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:38:52 +0100
The Jestyr said on 8:05/16 Sep 96...

> You DO run out of things to do with your Karma, unless you're magically
> active.

And if you're magically active, you run out of things to do with your
money. After a while you have all the cars and houses you need, and then
most of the stuff you can use as a magician also costs lots of Karma.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only I could hunt the hunter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 22
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:38:52 +0100
The Jestyr said on 7:54/16 Sep 96...

> So you lose the magic point that 90% of PAs use for extra +1d6 initiative,
> stick in synaptics 1 (btw, does Shadowtech's description of bioware's
> effect on mages cover PAs as well?), and your wounded little PA has 0.7
> body index left to stick toys in with

Or 0.7 Essence. You could get a synaptic accelerator, smartlink II,
rangefinder, and flare compensation, for example. If your GM doesn't use
the extra Essence loss rules from Cybertech, that is.

> (or 1.7 if you play our house rule).

How does that one work?

> Besides which, if the PA's smart, he/she/it won't take a Deadly in the
> first place... ;)

That's the real trick :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only I could hunt the hunter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 23
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:27:56 GMT
Peter writes

>
> And I believe the spell description says that you can only cast Treat or
> Heal once for a given wound. No second attempts at this one.
>
Well something does, you are right.
I have seen what happens when a GM fails to find this rule, 5mins
guaranteed an uninjured part from almost anything. Needless to say it
changed the moment the rule got found.

Mark
Message no. 24
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:45:54 +0000
On 16 Sep 96 at 8:44, Mark Steedman wrote:
> Sascha Pabst writes
[snip]
> > You ban healing of deadly damage because people with Essence 6 might gain an
> > advantage from it? Those people who refused to have a few fistful of wires
> > stuffed into them? Those people that turn down the advantages of Cyber- and
> > Bioware?

> This needs more comment.
I agree :-)

> It is also noteble that medkits give up at deadly wounds, you then
> need a hospital.
I guess you mean Biotech/First Aid? First Aid is used to stabilize the deadly
wounded character, and the Medkit does help (it prevents the +4TNM).

> Magic healing working beyond is very nice.
You are right that First Aid will not heal a deadly wounded character, but
nowhere is indicated that magic follows these rules, too. Vice versa, on p.155
SRII it says explicitly "[...] and the Drain Level is equal to the current
Wound Level of the target, Light, Moderate, Serious, or Deadly."
And since you only heal as many boxes off your condition monitor as you have
successes, even with a non-cybered character you need about 13 dice for your
spell to fully heal the character. And that is a heal-spell I yet have to
see...

> Folks with an essence of 6 usually in my experience have +3D6
> initative etc etc so wouldn't agin from lots of cyber, ok if i ever
That is probably compensated by the danger of grounding (if the characters use
spell locks) or dispelling (if they are using quickened spells), problems with
passing wards, attracting attention from astral watchers, etc.
There already is a balancing effect integrated, and I fail to see the sense to
"balance" it further, IMO this is unbalancing.

> Its somewhat a matter of preference but allowing treat spells to work
> on folks on a D or more gives magic a huge! advantage over mundane
> healing methods, and contemplate the idea of floks going in for cyber
> surgery, mage visiting the next day and they are out, up and about!
Still disagree. Someone gets Cyber installed (at least 1 point Essence), and
magician shows up to cast Heal (next day, you said). TN 5 at least, and 10
successes needed. Statistically 30 dice to throw to have the character fully
healed. What kind of spellslingers ARE your characters?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 25
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:05:49 -0500 (EST)
>> You DO run out of things to do with your Karma, unless you're magically
>> active.
>
>And if you're magically active, you run out of things to do with your
>money. After a while you have all the cars and houses you need, and then
>most of the stuff you can use as a magician also costs lots of Karma.

Which leads to the invariable stupid question . . .
"Can I sell him some karma?" :-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I don't care who he is, he's not touching MY chick!"
Message no. 26
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:33:39 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>
> The Jestyr said on 7:54/16 Sep 96...
>
> > So you lose the magic point that 90% of PAs use for extra +1d6 initiative,
> > stick in synaptics 1 (btw, does Shadowtech's description of bioware's
> > effect on mages cover PAs as well?), and your wounded little PA has 0.7
> > body index left to stick toys in with
>
> Or 0.7 Essence. You could get a synaptic accelerator, smartlink II,
> rangefinder, and flare compensation, for example. If your GM doesn't use
> the extra Essence loss rules from Cybertech, that is.

I don't play it that they've lost a Magic Point so now they have an
Essence point free and clear to use for bio/cyberware. If they use up an
Essence point in this way, they'll drop another Magic point (which
applies to phys-ads the same as mages. Magic is magic.)

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 27
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:08:39 -0500 (EST)
>The Jestyr said on 8:05/16 Sep 96...
>
>> You DO run out of things to do with your Karma, unless you're magically
>> active.
>
>And if you're magically active, you run out of things to do with your
>money. After a while you have all the cars and houses you need, and then
>most of the stuff you can use as a magician also costs lots of Karma.
>
>
That's the problem I've got... Plenty of extra Karma, but I can't hold onto
money to save my life... Of course it doesn't help that Bull and Johnny
haven't done a run for money in a while... It's all been trying to defend
themselves or deal with problems...

And from a decker's viewpoint... SOTA Sux!!!!!!

Got any Grey Poupon?



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 28
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:08:07 -0800
At 17:08 9/16/96 -0500, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
>>The Jestyr said on 8:05/16 Sep 96...

>>> You DO run out of things to do with your Karma, unless you're magically
>>> active.

Well, you can always just keep training those skills up...

>>And if you're magically active, you run out of things to do with your
>>money. After a while you have all the cars and houses you need, and then
>>most of the stuff you can use as a magician also costs lots of Karma.

>That's the problem I've got... Plenty of extra Karma, but I can't hold onto
>money to save my life... Of course it doesn't help that Bull and Johnny
>haven't done a run for money in a while... It's all been trying to defend
>themselves or deal with problems...

Well, magicians with vast amounts of extra money can certainly do things to
make other characters happy. If those other characters have karma to burn,
they might offer karma to the Free Spirit of the mage's choice (with the mage
helping to improve the ratio) in exchange for vast amounts of nuyen-- and the
mage can then get things *they* want from the Free Spirit...
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 29
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:00:46 +1000 (EST)
> > You DO run out of things to do with your Karma, unless you're magically
> > active.
>
> And if you're magically active, you run out of things to do with your
> money. After a while you have all the cars and houses you need, and then
> most of the stuff you can use as a magician also costs lots of Karma.

Except fetish foci. Gooooooood, I love fetish foci! :)

Funny, though, the sams are the ones who wind up with all the knowledge
skills, cause they've got nothing better to do with their Karma, and the
mages get the High lifestyle cause they've got nothing better to do with
their money... :)

Of course, me playing a mage/rigger, I've got plenty to do with both for
a long time to come... :)



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 30
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:15:02 +1000 (EST)
> > So you lose the magic point that 90% of PAs use for extra +1d6 initiative,
> > stick in synaptics 1 (btw, does Shadowtech's description of bioware's
> > effect on mages cover PAs as well?), and your wounded little PA has 0.7
> > body index left to stick toys in with
> > (or 1.7 if you play our house rule).
>
> How does that one work?

Our house rule, which I think a few others use too, is that 1 point of
Magic loss gives you TWO points of bioware. This is meant to account for
the descriptions of bioware as being much more mage-friendly than
cyberware, which makes sense when you consider that it's all organic,
rather than chunks of metal...



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:39:44 -0500 (EST)
>Well, magicians with vast amounts of extra money can certainly do things to
>make other characters happy. If those other characters have karma to burn,
>they might offer karma to the Free Spirit of the mage's choice (with the mage
>helping to improve the ratio) in exchange for vast amounts of nuyen-- and the
>mage can then get things *they* want from the Free Spirit...

Anyone who willingly and knowingly offers karma to a free spirit certainly
deserves whatever they get! ;-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I don't care who he is, he's not touching MY chick!"
Message no. 32
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:49:36 -0500 (EST)
>>Well, magicians with vast amounts of extra money can certainly do things to
>>make other characters happy. If those other characters have karma to burn,
>>they might offer karma to the Free Spirit of the mage's choice (with the mage
>>helping to improve the ratio) in exchange for vast amounts of nuyen-- and the
>>mage can then get things *they* want from the Free Spirit...
>
>Anyone who willingly and knowingly offers karma to a free spirit certainly
>deserves whatever they get! ;-)
>
>
Shut up, you... I'm still waiting to see how you screw Johnny and Bull...



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 33
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:51:13 -0700
Andre' Selmer wrote:
>
> <snip earlier bit>
>
> @ This needs more comment.
> @ It is also noteble that medkits give up at deadly wounds, you then
> @ need a hospital. Magic healing working beyond is very nice.
> @ Folks with an essence of 6 usually in my experience have +3D6
> @ initative etc etc so wouldn't agin from lots of cyber, ok if i ever
> @ manage to find some players who refrain (or can be pursuaded to) on
> @ the wired 2, high essence mundanes may be a valid enough option.
> @ Its somewhat a matter of preference but allowing treat spells to work
> @ on folks on a D or more gives magic a huge! advantage over mundane
> @ healing methods, and contemplate the idea of floks going in for cyber
> @ surgery, mage visiting the next day and they are out, up and about!
>
> The way that we play this is that Magic Healing speeds up the
> healing rate of individuals in hospital, but as mages are rare and
> healing spells drain is high the cost is prohibitive. In our system to
> gain a mage to help in healing costs about 5,000 a day and you add
> successes to the body roll. (Some obscure healing spell that
> characters rarely bother to learn as it is slow but has lower drain).
> Major spells like heal are available for characters comming out of
> surgury but the chances of success are very little hence the +\-
> 10,000 per attempt cost (success not guarenteed). If the charater
> wants a higher chance of success, how about ritual heal spells, also
> available but the cost is usually very very very high. Also there is
> an unstated ruling that while the character is recouperating from the
> surgery the character 'learns' to control the cyberware, when there
> is instant healing the character does not have time to learn how to
> use the cyberware hence the character has to go back and learn, this
> of course costs more money, but with the old fashioned way the
> price is included.
>
> Of course you could rule that the spell is limited in it capability
> to healing a maximum of a single category!
>
> My 0.02
>
> Andre'

I agree with the healing from cyberware also includes training and
physical therapy during th recuperation process. I'd say anyone that
takes magical healing would still be accountable for a percentage (25%)
of the physical healing time (decided by the body roll) for this therapy
and training process, down to the minium healing time listed in the book
(S/R II page 113).

I also came up with a price list for having spells cast by NPC's. (i.e.
- healers, talismongers and such)

Price = Drain Code (F/2+X) * Rate (based on drain level).

Light = 1,000
Moderate = 5,000
Serious = 10,000
Deadly = 25,000

Thus the cost for a casting of Force 4 Increase Body +2 with a drain of
[(F/2)+1]M would be 15,000. [(4/2)+1] * 5,000 = 15,000.

Yes, the prices are STEEP. But keep in mind supply and demand in the
sixth world where magic is only 10% of the population. (Also, it
encourages the magical characters to spend karma on learning the spells
themselves.)

Availability is a T# of 4+(F/2) / (F) days. (i.e. A force for spell
would be 6/4 days) Magical Etiquette is used for the availability
test. Street or other appicable etiquette can be used thru magical
oriented contacts at a +1 or +2 at the GM's discretion, using
non-magical contacts to track down the spellcaster this way is at a +4
if even possible.

Anyways, that's what I've come up with...


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 34
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:17:55 +0100
Loki said on 11:33/16 Sep 96...

> I don't play it that they've lost a Magic Point so now they have an
> Essence point free and clear to use for bio/cyberware. If they use up an
> Essence point in this way, they'll drop another Magic point (which
> applies to phys-ads the same as mages. Magic is magic.)

Let me get this straight: you make them lose a Magic point for each piece
of cyberware they get installed?

If you ask me, Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down. So getting some
eyes makes your Essence 5.8 and your Magic 5. Anything up to .8 Essence
cost can now be installed without dropping your Essence below 5 (and
thereby your Magic to 4 as well).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only I could hunt the hunter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 35
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:17:55 +0100
The Jestyr said on 8:15/17 Sep 96...

> Our house rule, which I think a few others use too, is that 1 point of
> Magic loss gives you TWO points of bioware. This is meant to account for
> the descriptions of bioware as being much more mage-friendly than
> cyberware, which makes sense when you consider that it's all organic,
> rather than chunks of metal...

One thing that's already in the rules, is that bioware costs less Body
than equivalent cyberware costs Essence. With that complicated sentence, I
mean that muscle replacement costs 1 Essence per level, while muscle
augmentation costs .8 Body per level, and also gives you a slightly
greater bonus.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only I could hunt the hunter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 36
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:17:55 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 13:27/16 Sep 96...

> > And I believe the spell description says that you can only cast Treat or
> > Heal once for a given wound. No second attempts at this one.
> >
> Well something does, you are right.
> I have seen what happens when a GM fails to find this rule, 5mins
> guaranteed an uninjured part from almost anything. Needless to say it
> changed the moment the rule got found.

And don't forget that you cannot apply first aid to someone who's been
magically healed. Naturally, smart players will do first aid first, and
magical healing second, but if they forget, it's tough luck for them...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only I could hunt the hunter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 37
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:20:01 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

It looks like we have differing opinions. However the best solution
is probably game dependent.

> > It is also noteble that medkits give up at deadly wounds, you then
> > need a hospital.
> I guess you mean Biotech/First Aid? First Aid is used to stabilize the deadly
> wounded character, and the Medkit does help (it prevents the +4TNM).
>
yes. There is also a special stabilise spell for doing this. but all
they do is stop the 1box/ 10 mins getting worse rather than curing.

> > Magic healing working beyond is very nice.
> You are right that First Aid will not heal a deadly wounded character, but
> nowhere is indicated that magic follows these rules, too.
i agree happily that by the book magical healing can heal any boxes
at 1/success, including overflow.

> Vice versa, on p.155
> SRII it says explicitly "[...] and the Drain Level is equal to the current
> Wound Level of the target, Light, Moderate, Serious, or Deadly."
> And since you only heal as many boxes off your condition monitor as you have
> successes, even with a non-cybered character you need about 13 dice for your
> spell to fully heal the character. And that is a heal-spell I yet have to
> see...
force a few, sorcery 6 and a power focus. Ok you might not get 100%
but if you can get them down to 2 boxes light wounds heal overnight
at about low lifestyle. I have seen force 6 treat spells on the loose
to cope with the fact that the force 1 plus 'thow in my magic pool'
approach does not solve this.

>
> > Folks with an essence of 6 usually in my experience have +3D6
> > initative etc etc so wouldn't agin from lots of cyber, ok if i ever
> That is probably compensated by the danger of grounding (if the characters use
> spell locks) or dispelling (if they are using quickened spells), problems with
> passing wards, attracting attention from astral watchers, etc.
> There already is a balancing effect integrated, and I fail to see the sense to
> "balance" it further, IMO this is unbalancing.
>
> > Its somewhat a matter of preference but allowing treat spells to work
> > on folks on a D or more gives magic a huge! advantage over mundane
> > healing methods, and contemplate the idea of floks going in for cyber
> > surgery, mage visiting the next day and they are out, up and about!
> Still disagree. Someone gets Cyber installed (at least 1 point Essence), and
> magician shows up to cast Heal (next day, you said). TN 5 at least, and 10
> successes needed. Statistically 30 dice to throw to have the character fully
> healed. What kind of spellslingers ARE your characters?
given a couple of karma induced rerolls, they might not grant
miracles but getting characters on their feet (even if not very well)
if very handy given that non magical methods will probably take at
least 10 days (and getting 3 successes on that body roll is hard even
for real grunt Sammies)

>
> Sascha
Mark
Message no. 38
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 20:57:27 +1100
>Let me get this straight: you make them lose a Magic point for each piece
>of cyberware they get installed?
>
>If you ask me, Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down. So getting some
>eyes makes your Essence 5.8 and your Magic 5. Anything up to .8 Essence
>cost can now be installed without dropping your Essence below 5 (and
>thereby your Magic to 4 as well).

Plus loses due to Deadly wounds, Gurth.

If you put in cybereyes, you now have 5.8 E, and 5 M. Up to .8 Essence
can be put in without further loss. If you lose a Magic point due to
Deadly wounds, then you don't suddenly have a 1.8 Essence hole you can
use. You still have only .8

OTH, I don't make them risk Magic loss from the deadly wound caused by
implanting cyber. I assume they take their time and treat magically
active patients carefully.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 39
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:51:28 GMT
Gurth writes

> And don't forget that you cannot apply first aid to someone who's been
> magically healed. Naturally, smart players will do first aid first, and
> magical healing second, but if they forget, it's tough luck for them...
>
Yes. I have a feeling that by the rules it might be one or the other,
cannot remember. The local consensus is treat or heal. or first aid
then heal. Given that a medkit will drop someone from 9 boxes to 3, 1
success on that heal spell makes it 2, and a nights rest and
characters regenerate.
Make that 10 boxes of damage and they don't get up in a while. Even
if as by the rules you allow magic the sammies will be very luck to
reach serious even with karma on the spells and a real good mage,
though essence 6 magicians still stand up pretty fast if they have a
friend with treat, maybe not unhurt, but in pretty good shape.

Mark
Message no. 40
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
> As one might guess from looking at Awakenings, or any fiction text, PAs in
> Shadowrun are described as extremely fast, and everybody speaks about them
> in awe.
> However, as one can easily see, they sure are slower than a street sam.
>
> So I think that to make up for this (if one wants to), a GM can allow the
> rule of six to apply to all of a PA's initiative dice.
> Comments?

Just one: Physads get something that no other character type has
access to: Combat Sense. The spell version isn't even as spiffy because
it doesn't allow the recipient to throw their combat pool dice into
surprise situations, it's just extra dice. Even a fairly slow physad
with a Reaction of 6 can be something to fear if he or she can throw 8-12
extra dice into surprise situations. This ability to augment the
surprise test this way can't be duplicated by any cyberware or magic, and
is tremendously useful.
Physads aren't necessarily *fast*, but many have lightning
reactions that kick in at the instant you try to attack them. They look
fast because when you try to surprise them, they end up getting more
successes than you and whip seven shades of bootie while you're still
springing your trap. Remember that if you're surprised, you can take no
actions, can't counterattack, can't dodge, and are basically screwed.
Roll your Body, chummer, 'cause you're takin' damage.

Marc
Message no. 41
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:57:57 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>
> Loki said on 11:33/16 Sep 96...
>
> > I don't play it that they've lost a Magic Point so now they have an
> > Essence point free and clear to use for bio/cyberware. If they use up an
> > Essence point in this way, they'll drop another Magic point (which
> > applies to phys-ads the same as mages. Magic is magic.)
>
> Let me get this straight: you make them lose a Magic point for each piece
> of cyberware they get installed?
>
> If you ask me, Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down. So getting some
> eyes makes your Essence 5.8 and your Magic 5. Anything up to .8 Essence
> cost can now be installed without dropping your Essence below 5 (and
> thereby your Magic to 4 as well).

Maybe I didn't come off clear, but what you described is how I handle
it. Magic is equal to essence rounded down. However, if they've lost a
magic point do to a magic loss roll I handle it sort of like a stat
that's been dropped via asceticism (where for game mechanics it's
treated as if the stat were at it's original level though it's rating is
now lowered), in other words it doesn't create a pocket for them to now
use an Essence point free and clear. Cyber/bioware implantation would
affect the next magic point in line as if the Magic Loss hadn't
happened. Is this making sense?

As an example, a phys-ad took a magic loss of one Point. So his essence
is now 6 but his magic is 5. If he were to follow you example and get
the eyes implanted, his essence would then be 5.8 but his magic is now
4. Some may says it's harsh, but it's how I handle it.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 42
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:09:42 -0700
Loki wrote:
>
> Gurth wrote:
> >
> > Loki said on 11:33/16 Sep 96...
> >
> > > I don't play it that they've lost a Magic Point so now they have an
> > > Essence point free and clear to use for bio/cyberware. If they use up an
> > > Essence point in this way, they'll drop another Magic point (which
> > > applies to phys-ads the same as mages. Magic is magic.)
> >
> > Let me get this straight: you make them lose a Magic point for each piece
> > of cyberware they get installed?
> >
> > If you ask me, Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down. So getting some
> > eyes makes your Essence 5.8 and your Magic 5. Anything up to .8 Essence
> > cost can now be installed without dropping your Essence below 5 (and
> > thereby your Magic to 4 as well).
>
> Maybe I didn't come off clear, but what you described is how I handle
> it. Magic is equal to essence rounded down. However, if they've lost a
> magic point do to a magic loss roll I handle it sort of like a stat
> that's been dropped via asceticism (where for game mechanics it's
> treated as if the stat were at it's original level though it's rating is
> now lowered), in other words it doesn't create a pocket for them to now
> use an Essence point free and clear. Cyber/bioware implantation would
> affect the next magic point in line as if the Magic Loss hadn't
> happened. Is this making sense?
>
> As an example, a phys-ad took a magic loss of one Point. So his essence
> is now 6 but his magic is 5. If he were to follow you example and get
> the eyes implanted, his essence would then be 5.8 but his magic is now
> 4. Some may says it's harsh, but it's how I handle it.

I forgot to add that then yes, in the above example the remaining .8
essence points could be used before magic would drop to 3.

Just wanted to clear that up before you caught it. ;o)


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 43
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:25:52 -0500
At 10:51 PM 9/16/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I also came up with a price list for having spells cast by NPC's. (i.e.
>- healers, talismongers and such)
>
>Price = Drain Code (F/2+X) * Rate (based on drain level).
>
>Light = 1,000
>Moderate = 5,000
>Serious = 10,000
>Deadly = 25,000
>
>Thus the cost for a casting of Force 4 Increase Body +2 with a drain of
>[(F/2)+1]M would be 15,000. [(4/2)+1] * 5,000 = 15,000.
>
>Yes, the prices are STEEP. But keep in mind supply and demand in the
>sixth world where magic is only 10% of the population.

Try 1% of the population is magically adept, with about a tenth of that
being fully capable (mages and shamans). Steep magic prices would be the norm.


-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"Get off me cheese!"
-Wallace, Nick Park's _Wallace and Gromit in A Grand Day Out_
Message no. 44
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:05:13 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> >Let me get this straight: you make them lose a Magic point for each piece
> >of cyberware they get installed?
> >
> >If you ask me, Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down. So getting some
> >eyes makes your Essence 5.8 and your Magic 5. Anything up to .8 Essence
> >cost can now be installed without dropping your Essence below 5 (and
> >thereby your Magic to 4 as well).
>
> Plus loses due to Deadly wounds, Gurth.
>
> If you put in cybereyes, you now have 5.8 E, and 5 M. Up to .8 Essence
> can be put in without further loss. If you lose a Magic point due to
> Deadly wounds, then you don't suddenly have a 1.8 Essence hole you can
> use. You still have only .8

Thank-you, this is the point I've been trying to make all along! Maybe
if they hear it coming from someone else... ;oP


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 45
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:07:24 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>
> Mark Steedman said on 13:27/16 Sep 96...
>
> > > And I believe the spell description says that you can only cast Treat or
> > > Heal once for a given wound. No second attempts at this one.
> > >
> > Well something does, you are right.
> > I have seen what happens when a GM fails to find this rule, 5mins
> > guaranteed an uninjured part from almost anything. Needless to say it
> > changed the moment the rule got found.
>
> And don't forget that you cannot apply first aid to someone who's been
> magically healed. Naturally, smart players will do first aid first, and
> magical healing second, but if they forget, it's tough luck for them...

I know it's stated that you can't magically heal the same set of wounds
twice, but where are you getting that First Aid (mundane healing) can't
be used after you've been magically healed? It's possible I may have
missed something...

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 46
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:57:50 +0100
Loki said on 11:57/17 Sep 96...

> Maybe I didn't come off clear, but what you described is how I handle
> it. Magic is equal to essence rounded down. However, if they've lost a
> magic point do to a magic loss roll I handle it sort of like a stat
> that's been dropped via asceticism (where for game mechanics it's
> treated as if the stat were at it's original level though it's rating is
> now lowered), in other words it doesn't create a pocket for them to now
> use an Essence point free and clear. Cyber/bioware implantation would
> affect the next magic point in line as if the Magic Loss hadn't
> happened. Is this making sense?

I think we misunderstood each other (so what's new? :) I thought you did
something like make them lose 1 Magic Point for each piece of cyberware
installed, but if I understand it correctly now, what you mean is that you
calculate the Magic stat like this:

Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down, minus Magic Loss from Deadly
wounds. (Magic = INT(Essence) - Loss)

IOW: the same way I do :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's why I pay no mind.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 47
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:57:50 +0100
Loki said on 1:07/18 Sep 96...

> I know it's stated that you can't magically heal the same set of wounds
> twice, but where are you getting that First Aid (mundane healing) can't
> be used after you've been magically healed? It's possible I may have
> missed something...

SRII page 115, under First Aid: "Regardless of the success, first aid is
no longer of any use once magical healing has been applied." That pretty
much rules out casting a Treat spell and then bandaging the wounds, I
think, and it makes sense too: if the magical healing closes the wounds,
there's nothing left to do with first aid (aimed at stopping bleeding,
etc.).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's why I pay no mind.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 48
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:15:35 +0000
On 17 Sep 96 at 11:20, Mark Steedman wrote:
> It looks like we have differing opinions. However the best solution
> is probably game dependent.
[reall BIG snip]
This we can agree upon :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 49
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:15:35 +0000
On 18 Sep 96 at 1:07, Loki wrote:
> I know it's stated that you can't magically heal the same set of wounds
> twice, but where are you getting that First Aid (mundane healing) can't
> be used after you've been magically healed? It's possible I may have
> missed something...
SRII, p. 115, "Magical Nealing [...] Successful use of either spell [Heal or
Treat] preludes the use of additional healing or treating spells, or of first
aid."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 50
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Physical adept should be fast
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:30:48 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>
> Loki said on 11:57/17 Sep 96...
>
> > Maybe I didn't come off clear, but what you described is how I handle
> > it. Magic is equal to essence rounded down. However, if they've lost a
> > magic point do to a magic loss roll I handle it sort of like a stat
> > that's been dropped via asceticism (where for game mechanics it's
> > treated as if the stat were at it's original level though it's rating is
> > now lowered), in other words it doesn't create a pocket for them to now
> > use an Essence point free and clear. Cyber/bioware implantation would
> > affect the next magic point in line as if the Magic Loss hadn't
> > happened. Is this making sense?
>
> I think we misunderstood each other (so what's new? :) I thought you did
> something like make them lose 1 Magic Point for each piece of cyberware
> installed, but if I understand it correctly now, what you mean is that you
> calculate the Magic stat like this:
>
> Magic is equal to Essence, rounded down, minus Magic Loss from Deadly
> wounds. (Magic = INT(Essence) - Loss)
>
> IOW: the same way I do :)

Bingo! :o)


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************

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