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Message no. 1
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:29:14 +0200
Hail Runners,

I don't know if I'm walking on dangerous ground here, but I have in my
possession the SR3 sourcebook and it looks like Physical Adepts are highly
outclassed by the Streetsamurai, as given in the Archtype section. It seems
like the Physical Adept is coming up a few power points short to rank as
high as the Streetsamurai does.

Let me explain; to my estimate the PhysAd needs about 100 Karma to come
close to the things that a Streetsamurai can do at the start of the game.
Even then there are things that the Streetsamurai has that a PhysAd can
never achieve (for instance; Smartlink).

Now I know that a lot of people will tell me that a PhysAd is not supposed
to be Superman, and that they can progress throughout the game without ever
hitting a roof like the Streetsamurai does when his essence runs out and his
all stacked up on Bioware. However, where a Streetsamurai can buy his
equipment during character creation and then start playing, earning nuyen
and karma (subsequently getting better gear and increasing skills and
attributes), a PhysAd is spending all his Karma on his powers trying to
catch up on what the Streetsamurai was when he first started the game.

After a while the PhysAd has earned enough Karma to be an equal in power to
the Streetsam, but then he lacks the skills because he spent all his karma
on powers while the Streetsam went on to increase skills and abilities. Do
you see my dilemma?

I was thinking to maybe grant the players of PhysAd's double their Magic
Rating in power points to buy powers at character creation, or maybe change
the 20 karma per power point, to 10 karma per power point, to equal things
out a bit.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, tried it and failed, or tried it and
succeeded? Maybe found a better way, or thinks I'm talking out of my arse?
Let me know.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 2
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:57:52 -0400
At 08:29 PM 6/24/99 +0200, Dennis wrote:


<<SNIPPED IT ALL THE SUBJECT SAYS ENOUGH>>


Oh no...



--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 3
From: Richard Tomasso richard@****.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:23:21 -0400 (EDT)
Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:
> I don't know if I'm walking on dangerous ground here,

You are. :)


> possession the SR3 sourcebook and it looks like Physical Adepts are highly
> outclassed by the Streetsamurai, as given in the Archtype section.

Based on the archetypes, yeah, the PhysAd isn't that great. (our group
did the stuffer shack run with a bunch of archetypes, and it took the
PhysAd close to 10 turns to take out 1 ganger)

It's not that hard to design a kick-ass physad, should you want to.


> Let me explain; to my estimate the PhysAd needs about 100 Karma to come
> close to the things that a Streetsamurai can do at the start of the game.
> Even then there are things that the Streetsamurai has that a PhysAd can
> never achieve (for instance; Smartlink).

Probably a bit less. After all, he can increase all his combat skills
more cheaply than the sam once you get above rating 5.

And the Physad can get things the sam never can, like Astral Perception.

The sam also has to worry about SOTA and maintenance costs.

The 2 archetypes aren't designed to go toe-to-toe to see who wins. Decide
what kind of character you want to play, what role he fills in the group,
and then design the character.

For unarmed combat, stealth, and less in-your-face actions, the physad
can usually be much better.


If all you want to do is kill things, then yeah, go for the street sam.
If you want to be cool and different and not be stopped at the airport checkin
for being only half-human, go for the physad.



> I was thinking to maybe grant the players of PhysAd's double their Magic
> Rating in power points to buy powers at character creation, or maybe change
> the 20 karma per power point, to 10 karma per power point, to equal things
> out a bit.

In playtest, we looked at starting Physads with 9 power points. Very scary.
Didn't really need to worry about advancement.
Message no. 4
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:18:50 -0700
<snip it all>

Tee hee. I'll take some.


Ok. The thing is that Streetsams have a point where they can't shove any
more metal into their body, and Phizzies don't. One has a cap, so they can
start out with more, the other doesn't, so you make them earn it.

Sound ok?
Lloyd Vance
"beating life at life,
and death too late to
truly win
against
you."
--Charles Bukowski
Message no. 5
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:24:07 -0400 (EDT)
"Dennis Steinmeijer" <dv8@********.nl> writes:
> I don't know if I'm walking on dangerous ground here, but I have in my
> possession the SR3 sourcebook and it looks like Physical Adepts are highly
> outclassed by the Streetsamurai, as given in the Archtype section. It seems
> like the Physical Adept is coming up a few power points short to rank as
> high as the Streetsamurai does.

Sure, but being a physad costs 25 building points/priority B,
while a street samurai probably is spending most of 30 building
points/priority A.
If you're talking about the actual archetypes, then yeah, the
statline looks better. The increased strength is overpriced, and the
other benefits are hard to see. Killing Hands (M) is better than
retractable spurs, the instant you start facing something like a
spirit or a metal detector. Pain resistance 3 is nice, but if you
want something that translates into a statline, trade it in for an
upgrade to Increase Reflexes (2) upgrade, Hearing Amplification, and
Thermographic Vision (to match the sammie archetype). The benefits of
the physad powers are more subtle.
But just look at the Street Samurai! How are you going to
pass off someone who looks like that as just a wageslave? Give the
adept the Fashion Sense power and he's all set to go. Shadowrunning
is frequently about subtlety, not how fast you can take out a couple
of security guards.

> Let me explain; to my estimate the PhysAd needs about 100 Karma to come
> close to the things that a Streetsamurai can do at the start of the game.

It's got its pros and cons. Sure, a street sam can buy
lowlight/thermo/flare comp/mag 3 for .4? essence and <40k? nuyen,
while the adept will have to spend 1.5 power points, but what if the
street sam wants 12 dice for stealth and pistols? The physad spends
1.5 power points for the stealth and 3 power points for the pistols,
but the street sam has to buy the skill up the hard way. Assuming
relevant stats of 6 and have both skills at 6, 174 karma is necessary
to raise the skills to 12. For 4.5 power points, 90 karma is
necessary.
(Sure, they aren't identical. The physad gets better vision
modifers for having non-cybernetic lowlight and thermo, and the sammie
can throw up to 12 dice of combat pool in vs. the physad's 6. more
pros and cons.)

The bottom line is that if you build a physad to do a sammie's
job, he won't be as good at it. Same thing with a mage. It's hard to
shoot while sustaining spells like increased reflexes and enhance aim
with a point of drain damage.

> Even then there are things that the Streetsamurai has that a PhysAd can
> never achieve (for instance; Smartlink).

Again, this goes both ways. First, a quick example. Is there
any way you can teach or install something in your sammie to perceive
the astral plane?

My Ork physad (who has received 15 karma total) gets to roll
14 dice on surprise tests, rolls 8 dice on projectile weapons (could
have easily been pistols or rifles if that was the concept), and rolls
10 dice for stealth. In addition, he has a very good chance of not
being picked up by security devices as a threat. I'd like to see you
do that with a sammie. (He also has a smattering of powers that a
sammie will also have, such as +4 reaction, +2d6 initiative, 8L
physical damage without weaponry, and vision/hearing modifications)

> Now I know that a lot of people will tell me that a PhysAd is not supposed
> to be Superman, and that they can progress throughout the game without ever
> hitting a roof like the Streetsamurai does when his essence runs out and his
> all stacked up on Bioware.

Bioware is unbalanced. It's basically extra space for a
sammie, which is why they need to redo it. You may want to consider
banning bioware if you want to rebalance power levels. I'm currently
allowing it, but making it cost essence = body index until M&M comes
out. If you're letting the sams load up on bioware, there's going to
be a problem. I can't help you there, as SR2 Bioware is kind of
broken game-balance wise and SR3 Bioware doesn't exist.

> However, where a Streetsamurai can buy his
> equipment during character creation and then start playing, earning nuyen
> and karma (subsequently getting better gear and increasing skills and
> attributes), a PhysAd is spending all his Karma on his powers trying to
> catch up on what the Streetsamurai was when he first started the game.

The physad should start with better skills and attributes (the
10 extra building points), and some physads like having gear. It's
not like the physad is just throwing their money away. In addition,
the street samurai has a pretty rough time installing cyberware, there
are many more things to go wrong and very high costs. (Street Index
on parts, cost of surgery, a doc you trust...)

> Does anyone have any thoughts on this, tried it and failed, or tried it and
> succeeded? Maybe found a better way, or thinks I'm talking out of my arse?
> Let me know.

I think you just need to see a well-designed physad doing what
a physad is good at doing. Let one initiate a bit and then watch them
slip past security and get the job done. Try to get the sam past the
same security. It's going to take some damn good ID when the
cyberware sensor goes off...
Sammies tend to be better in a stand-up fight, while physads
tend to be better about picking fights. The problem is that they tend
to be lumped together, so you sometimes see physads forced to perform
a sammie's role on a regular basis. If the physad takes a more
appropriate approach to the problem they may have a better time of it.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:26:01 -0400 (EDT)
Arr. I forgot this was ShadowRN, not rgfc. Please followup
privately, and fix the headers like I forgot to do.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Michael Carvalho ianvs@**********.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:30:22 -0400
Isn't a FAQ covering this age old question? I get tired of going
over the same old ground every time time this pops up.

-IANVS-
Message no. 8
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:12:07 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl>
To: ShadowRN Mailing List <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 1:29 PM
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's


> Hail Runners,
>
> I don't know if I'm walking on dangerous ground here, but I have in my
> possession the SR3 sourcebook and it looks like Physical Adepts are highly
> outclassed by the Streetsamurai, as given in the Archtype section. It
seems
> like the Physical Adept is coming up a few power points short to rank as
> high as the Streetsamurai does.
>
> Let me explain; to my estimate the PhysAd needs about 100 Karma to come
> close to the things that a Streetsamurai can do at the start of the game.
> Even then there are things that the Streetsamurai has that a PhysAd can
> never achieve (for instance; Smartlink).
>
> Now I know that a lot of people will tell me that a PhysAd is not supposed
> to be Superman, and that they can progress throughout the game without
ever
> hitting a roof like the Streetsamurai does when his essence runs out and
his
> all stacked up on Bioware. However, where a Streetsamurai can buy his
> equipment during character creation and then start playing, earning nuyen
> and karma (subsequently getting better gear and increasing skills and
> attributes), a PhysAd is spending all his Karma on his powers trying to
> catch up on what the Streetsamurai was when he first started the game.
>
> After a while the PhysAd has earned enough Karma to be an equal in power
to
> the Streetsam, but then he lacks the skills because he spent all his karma
> on powers while the Streetsam went on to increase skills and abilities. Do
> you see my dilemma?
>
> I was thinking to maybe grant the players of PhysAd's double their Magic
> Rating in power points to buy powers at character creation, or maybe
change
> the 20 karma per power point, to 10 karma per power point, to equal things
> out a bit.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this, tried it and failed, or tried it
and
> succeeded? Maybe found a better way, or thinks I'm talking out of my arse?
> Let me know.
>
> Dennis
>
> "Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
>
>

Hi,
To stir up the pot even further, IMHO a problem I have seen alot is that
people start thinking that PhysAd's are magical StreetSams. They are not.
A physad has many things that make them a match for a StreetSam. Six levels
of improved unarmed combat and Six levels of improved steath and killing
hands means the StreetSam won't get off a shot. Astral Perception and a
weapon focus means that there is a combat person dealing with spirits while
the mage deals with the conjuror. Increased Athletics and Electronics B/R
means someone who can get through the laser alarm systems and shut it off.
Sure, a physad can't shoot as good, or move as fast, but they aren't
designed to. Someone made a comparison once about the archetypes during a
flame war about which was the most powerful archetype. It went something
like: A street sam gets killed by a physad with stealth and killing hands
who is killed by a manablast from a mage who is killed by a rigger in their
car who is killed by a merc blowing up the car who is killed by a street
sam. Each archetype is good at what they do, play those strengths and you
will find that no single archetype is a superman, they are all supermen.

Mockingbird
Message no. 9
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:37:46 +0200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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> Isn't a FAQ covering this age old question? I get tired of going
>over the same old ground every time time this pops up.
>
>-IANVS-

If you would be so kind as to point me in the direction of the URL of the faq, then I will
bother you no more.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."





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<DIV><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Isn't
a FAQ covering this age old
question? I get tired of going <BR>&gt;over the same old ground every time time
this pops
up.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;-IANVS-<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you would be so kind as to point me in the direction
of the
URL of the faq, then I will bother you no more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2>Dennis</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2>"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how
awful Goodness
is..."</FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 10
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:52:06 -0500
Mark Wrote:
> The physad should start with better skills and attributes (the
>10 extra building points), and some physads like having gear. It's
>not like the physad is just throwing their money away. In addition,
>the street samurai has a pretty rough time installing cyberware, there
>are many more things to go wrong and very high costs. (Street Index
>on parts, cost of surgery, a doc you trust...)


???? What 10 extra building points?
Message no. 11
From: AndMat3@***.com AndMat3@***.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:58:03 EDT
In a message dated 6/24/99, 2:33:28 PM, shadowrn@*********.org writes:
<<I was thinking to maybe grant the players of PhysAd's double their Magic
Rating in power points to buy powers at character creation, or maybe change
the 20 karma per power point, to 10 karma per power point, to equal things
out a bit.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, tried it and failed, or tried it and
succeeded? Maybe found a better way, or thinks I'm talking out of my arse?
Let me know.>>

I find that giving PhyAds magic rating x1.5 to spend on powers seems to
balance things. As for smart links, either give the Adept the "knack" or
"Spell Casting edge" for Accurate Shot (or whatever that Awakenings spell is)
OR have the firearms adept blow one magic point getting a Smart Link and Eyes.

I also did not allow every spare point to be spent on "attack" dice. The
extra points are to fill out the character.

andy
Message no. 12
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:42:16 -0500
>>I don't know if I'm walking on dangerous ground here, but I have in my
>>possession the SR3 sourcebook and it looks like Physical Adepts are
highly
>>outclassed by the Streetsamurai, as given in the Archtype section. It
seems
>>like the Physical Adept is coming up a few power points short to rank as
>>high as the Streetsamurai does.

Yep... It's a Karma vs Cash Karma for Adepts Cash for Sam's... At least
until the Adept wants a weapon focus... Then It's either a SH*T load of
cash(1.4 Mil for Force 6) and a decent amount of karma or a SH*T load of
karma (Force x 8) and a moderate amount of cash. I've been saving up... I
have over 500K and 31 karma to spend. If I survive our current adventure
I'm going after at least a force 4 weapon focus (katana), It's a must for
fighting spirts over force 4 or 5... or a str of at least 10.

>>Let me explain; to my estimate the PhysAd needs about 100 Karma to come
>>close to the things that a Streetsamurai can do at the start of the game.
>>Even then there are things that the Streetsamurai has that a PhysAd can
>>never achieve (for instance; Smartlink).

Smart gogles or a laser sight will get you half the difference... Learn
centering for the ranged weapons group (note centering for adepts is not by
skill but by a more general category, see MitS). While it's not as good
it's something.

>>Now I know that a lot of people will tell me that a PhysAd is not
supposed
>>to be Superman, and that they can progress throughout the game without
ever
>>hitting a roof like the Streetsamurai does when his essence runs out and
his
>>all stacked up on Bioware. However, where a Streetsamurai can buy his
>>equipment during character creation and then start playing, earning nuyen
>>and karma (subsequently getting better gear and increasing skills and
>>attributes), a PhysAd is spending all his Karma on his powers trying to
>>catch up on what the Streetsamurai was when he first started the game.

>>After a while the PhysAd has earned enough Karma to be an equal in power
to
>>the Streetsam, but then he lacks the skills because he spent all his
karma
>>on powers while the Streetsam went on to increase skills and abilities.
Do
>>you see my dilemma?

Oh, Yea!

>>I was thinking to maybe grant the players of PhysAd's double their Magic
>>Rating in power points to buy powers at character creation, or maybe
change
>>the 20 karma per power point, to 10 karma per power point, to equal
things
>>out a bit.

Don't know about that... I thought it would be nice if you could buy power
points in .25 increments. Wana get low-light, cost ya 5 karama. looked
at that way it's not too bad.

>>Does anyone have any thoughts on this, tried it and failed, or tried it
and
>>succeeded? Maybe found a better way, or thinks I'm talking out of my
arse?
>>Let me know.

See above.
Message no. 13
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:37:35 EDT
In a message dated 6/24/99 12:04:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mcmanus@******.albany.edu writes:

> <<SNIPPED IT ALL THE SUBJECT SAYS ENOUGH>>
>
>
> Oh no...

Indeed!!!

<<Star tramples 00DNA in a mad rush to reach the safety of Gurth's stairs
before the carps start flying!!>>

Obviously, someone who didn't know better... Dvixen, maybe that section of
the FAQ about no no topics should be put right at the start of the FAQ along
with the link to Tolmwhappers??
Message no. 14
From: DV8 gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:40:36 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Carvalho <ianvs@**********.com>
To: ShadowRN <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 24 June 1999 09:33
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's


> Isn't a FAQ covering this age old question? I get tired of going
>over the same old ground every time time this pops up.
>
>-IANVS-

Well...

There are a lot of new listmembers and we have gone into a new edition
with the attendant changes, even if they are small ones.

As was stated in the intro to SR3, FASA is tryng to reach new gamers
and I dont think those of us who have gone through this debate before
need to jump on those who have not. If you have nothing to say on the
subject, dont post.

All IMHO

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 15
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:32:18 GMT
Ok what i think we are getting in here is a game taste quarrel, On my very
personal opinion every character is powerful, but in his own area, for
example a Street Sam can be very useful when on the oposite side of the
table there are lots of goons who want to turn you in to toast, then the
street sam whith his superior firing weapons and the cyberstuff can kill
more at a larger distance, while on one on one combat the Phys Ad can get
you with one strike by using his killing hands. Besides who says a Street
Sam in nothing more than a Killing Machine, there are alternatives to
character creation, and the PhysAd same stuff. So what you really need to
know is what do you want your character to do and then choose the profile
yuo see fits best.

ATTE el MORRIS


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:34:20 +0200
According to Michael Carvalho, at 15:30 on 24 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> Isn't a FAQ covering this age old question? I get tired of going
> over the same old ground every time time this pops up.

Actually it's been a very long time since I saw a post of that kind... Not
that I feel we need to make a whole thread out of it -- especially since
Marc already answered Dennis privately.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Michael Carvalho ianvs@**********.com
Subject: Physical Adepts vs Streetsam's
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:46:23 -0400
Once upon a time, DV8 wrote;

>> Isn't a FAQ covering this age old question? I get tired of going
>>over the same old ground every time time this pops up.
>>
>>-IANVS-
>
>Well...
>
>There are a lot of new listmembers and we have gone into a new edition
>with the attendant changes, even if they are small ones.
>
>As was stated in the intro to SR3, FASA is tryng to reach new gamers
>and I dont think those of us who have gone through this debate before
>need to jump on those who have not. If you have nothing to say on the
>subject, dont post.

I did have something to say, which was asking if this could be
easily answered elsewhere. I haven't looked at the FAQ since Dvixen first
updated it and I glanced then so I really don't remember nor do I care
enough to look now. If one is interested then by all means they should be
going over the FAQ. And if it isn't in the FAQ or on a webpage somewhere
then why haven't we do it?
Now maybe you should actually work on your reading comprehension
skills before you make another "If you have nothing to say on the
subject, don't post" comment. It doesn't make me very happy.

-IANVS-

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