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Message no. 1
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.COM>
Subject: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:19:20 -0700
I have now been approached by my players several times requesting that
I ease up on them and "just let them kill things." I ask the list, I
am being a bad GM? I mean, the group goes out to do some work for a
Johnson who says he wants a truck stopped. They stop the truck but one
of the group gets put into the hospital because of it. During the next
week, he ends up going into the hospital two more times. (Once was
because the group forgot about the guy in the truck and he was at
ground zero for a dual grenade blast.) Anyway, at this point, he
decides he wants to go out and kill something. Gang members in
particular, but it really doesn't matter much. Now I would have let
him had he not had that particularly maniacal "I will kill anything I
seeonce I get started" look on his face. But I didn't let him...(A
mistake, I realize now.)

Anyway, this leads to a "discussion" that our local
<cough>powergamer</cough> says he doesn't figure it's fair that he
can't start the game with a sniper rifle and heavy armor. He says that
his character (like all his characters) had been in the military for
long enough time and that he should be able to get a sniper rifle with
no problems. (Hell, he said he could get one today inside of a few
days.) Why wouldn't I let him start with one, he asks?

My answer was based on the limited availability rules within SR2 (or
was it the Companion?) that won't allow anything with an availability
above 8(?) and even with the Merc Contact that puts it at 10. A sniper
rifle is a 12 or 14, so I said no. (Not needing to say that every one
of his characters to date has wanted a sniper rifle.)

Maybe you all need a little background here, so here goes: When I
first started GMing, I GMed a Monty Haul campaign. It was great fun
while it lasted, but eventually everyone tired of it, or drifted away,
etc. So we started playing SR the way I think it was meant to be
played, right? And my players kept making combat monsters or magical
armories or death machines on wheels so I had to institute these
limited availability rules to tone things down some. (Cause as my
players have all whined, what gang member walks around with missile
launchers and Heavy armor? They do if my players are twice as heavily
armed and armored, I tell you.) But enough about that. Eventually I
got situated and everyone got into the groove. Now I have had an
influx of a couple of new players (1-2 really) and my old players are
suddenly clomoring for something resembling another Monty Haul
campaign. (At least that's what it seems like to me.)

I try telling them that I won't GM another campaign like that cause it
ends up being Gm vs Players and I don't like that position. They tell
me it's not like that, they just want to be able to do things that
"normal" shadowrunners don't do. (By normal shadowrunner, I mean the
somewhat professional runner who takes a job for money and fulfils the
contract to his/her best ability.) I mean, these are players who
complain when I come down on them too harshly for taking them out
after they take out some Lonestar cops. They complain cause the cops
are after them?!? What'd they expect?

And they also complain when I mention that carrying heavy weapons
downtown isn't a Good Idea (tm). I subtly remind them that Lonestar
frowns upon that kind of activity, and all they do is try to tell me
that they can take Lonestar out if that happens. It's true, too. (And
before you tell me that the HTR teams can take out anything, let me
assure you that they can, but after a couple of games played that way,
the players just don't want to play anymore cause the game suddenly
isn't fun.)

So, my point (didn't think I had one, did you?) is this: Are my
players bad players or am I a bad GM? What do y'all think? Go ahead
and ask me anything you think you need to know, but remember that I
get the digest so can't respond right away unless you reply to me
directly. I really appreciate any input this list can give me, thanks!

Zebulin

PS: AlLee, I know you will read this, and you and I know how each
other feels about this situation. you can talk to me privately if you
need to.




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Message no. 2
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:23:23 -0400
<snip tale of woe by Zebulin>

Gaming aestetics aside, let's start off with a platitude. A good game is
one where everyone has fun. And sometimes, even the most dedicated
character-actor player just wants to kill people and break things, much
less someone who's playing style is more action-oriented.

The group you describe I probably wouldn't enjoy playing with. Then again,
I hate basement-level characters, so I might not like playing with you
either. That's me. But they obviously know what they want to do to have
fun. After all, they're no more obligated to conform to your style of play
than you are to conform to theirs. So the question is, can you bring
yourself to GM that kind of game, or can you find a happy middle ground
with them?

Sorry, but none of you sounds particularly right or wrong to me, just
incompatible.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 3
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:41:50 -0500
> I have now been approached by my players several times requesting that
> I ease up on them and "just let them kill things." I ask the list, I
> am being a bad GM?

They can "just kill things", as long as they see and understand the results
of their actions. I'm guessing that that's the way you're running things,
instead of just saying "no, your character can't do that because Lone Star
would just run you down. Your character knows better".

I mean, the group goes out to do some work for a
> Johnson who says he wants a truck stopped. They stop the truck but one
> of the group gets put into the hospital because of it. During the next
> week, he ends up going into the hospital two more times. (Once was
> because the group forgot about the guy in the truck and he was at
> ground zero for a dual grenade blast.) Anyway, at this point, he
> decides he wants to go out and kill something. Gang members in
> particular, but it really doesn't matter much. Now I would have let
> him had he not had that particularly maniacal "I will kill anything I
> seeonce I get started" look on his face. But I didn't let him...(A
> mistake, I realize now.)

Right. Just let the players do their thing. They'll start to get the idea
once they get knocked off or arrested all the time. As long as you make it
clear to the player that you don't approve of the actions, but are only
playing the NPC's to react as you think they would react. Make sure the
other players know what's happening. Hopefully, the rogue player will come
back in line, or you'll lose just one player rather than the whole group.

> Anyway, this leads to a "discussion" that our local
> <cough>powergamer</cough> says he doesn't figure it's fair that he
> can't start the game with a sniper rifle and heavy armor. He says that
> his character (like all his characters) had been in the military for
> long enough time and that he should be able to get a sniper rifle with
> no problems. (Hell, he said he could get one today inside of a few
> days.) Why wouldn't I let him start with one, he asks?
>
> My answer was based on the limited availability rules within SR2 (or
> was it the Companion?) that won't allow anything with an availability
> above 8(?) and even with the Merc Contact that puts it at 10. A sniper
> rifle is a 12 or 14, so I said no. (Not needing to say that every one
> of his characters to date has wanted a sniper rifle.)

The availability rules should be enough to cover this, but if they still
want to whine, let them. Make sure everyone understands the consistancy of
the rules you follow, and why you're not letting the CHARACTER have the
item. You're not trying to be against the PLAYER, but to make the world
follow a rational set of rules.

> Maybe you all need a little background here, so here goes: When I
> first started GMing, I GMed a Monty Haul campaign. It was great fun
> while it lasted, but eventually everyone tired of it, or drifted away,
> etc. So we started playing SR the way I think it was meant to be
> played, right? And my players kept making combat monsters or magical
> armories or death machines on wheels so I had to institute these
> limited availability rules to tone things down some. (Cause as my
> players have all whined, what gang member walks around with missile
> launchers and Heavy armor? They do if my players are twice as heavily
> armed and armored, I tell you.) But enough about that. Eventually I
> got situated and everyone got into the groove. Now I have had an
> influx of a couple of new players (1-2 really) and my old players are
> suddenly clomoring for something resembling another Monty Haul
> campaign. (At least that's what it seems like to me.)
>
> I try telling them that I won't GM another campaign like that cause it
> ends up being Gm vs Players and I don't like that position. They tell
> me it's not like that, they just want to be able to do things that
> "normal" shadowrunners don't do. (By normal shadowrunner, I mean the
> somewhat professional runner who takes a job for money and fulfils the
> contract to his/her best ability.) I mean, these are players who
> complain when I come down on them too harshly for taking them out
> after they take out some Lonestar cops. They complain cause the cops
> are after them?!? What'd they expect?

This is perfectly reasonable. Make sure that they understand that their are
consequences for their actions. Once they "get it", they'll be a lot more
immersed in the world and enjoy it more.

> And they also complain when I mention that carrying heavy weapons
> downtown isn't a Good Idea (tm). I subtly remind them that Lonestar
> frowns upon that kind of activity, and all they do is try to tell me
> that they can take Lonestar out if that happens. It's true, too. (And
> before you tell me that the HTR teams can take out anything, let me
> assure you that they can, but after a couple of games played that way,
> the players just don't want to play anymore cause the game suddenly
> isn't fun.)

Just make sure you aren't using a heavy hand and saying "no, that's not what
happens". Say "if you do, this is what will happen". Then explain why you
don't want to run that kind of game. If they persist, run it for them, and
once the military rolls out to take them down, they'll understand what
they've done to the game.

> So, my point (didn't think I had one, did you?) is this: Are my
> players bad players or am I a bad GM? What do y'all think? Go ahead
> and ask me anything you think you need to know, but remember that I
> get the digest so can't respond right away unless you reply to me
> directly. I really appreciate any input this list can give me, thanks!

Sounds like you're doing okay, as long as you aren't being too controlling
OUT OF GAME. It's perfectly reasonable to want to run a reasonable response
by the police and the military IN GAME.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 4
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:01:00 EDT
In a message dated 10/10/1998 6:21:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
zebulingod@*****.COM writes:

>
> So, my point (didn't think I had one, did you?) is this: Are my
> players bad players or am I a bad GM? What do y'all think? Go ahead
> and ask me anything you think you need to know, but remember that I
> get the digest so can't respond right away unless you reply to me
> directly. I really appreciate any input this list can give me, thanks!
>
I snipped the details you gave. OUCH! comes to mind quickly enough.

I would have to say that you and your group are merely going through a growing
phase of comprehension and understanding between each other. Your description
of the <cough>powergamer</cough> is however interesting enough. I would have
said "sit down and learn respect for the weapon/armor before you get said
toys". Yes, we have heavy armor and heavy weapons and space and psionics and
more, but I really accept the fact that our game is -OUR- game.

Your group wants something and you disagree. Discuss it with them again if
you have too. Take a break from gaming (or just that game) if you need to.
And as for the Powergamer in question. I personally would call him something
<cough>munchkin</cough> worse. If that kind of stuff is what the group wants,
and you disagree with it, then tell them that and ask them (the other players)
if any of them feel like they are ready to GM *them* for a while. Flip the
tables and see how they appreciate the entirety of the game, including each
individual's contribution.

As I said, it's a growing period. Stretch now, I'm tellin' ya ;)

-K
Message no. 5
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:54:30 -0500
On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Zebulin Magby wrote:

I will skip most of the rest of the parts of your post since others are
covering them much better than i could and they stole all my good points
already anyway:)

> Anyway, this leads to a "discussion" that our local
> <cough>powergamer</cough> says he doesn't figure it's fair that he
> can't start the game with a sniper rifle and heavy armor. He says that
> his character (like all his characters) had been in the military for
> long enough time and that he should be able to get a sniper rifle with
> no problems. (Hell, he said he could get one today inside of a few
> days.) Why wouldn't I let him start with one, he asks?

Well it depends on what kind of sniper rifle he wants. They come in a
range of accuracies, costs, and powers.

They start with an "accuracized" military assault rifle that has been
worked over a little by a gunsmith to give the unit marksman that extra
little bit of accuracy in combat without costing THAT much more except the
time of the gunsmith. Basicaly a customized weapon per FoF.

The next step up is a scoped match grade sporting rifle shooting match
grade ammo. You can propably just use the sporting rifles + scope stats
for this.

Then you have the rebuilt scoped match grade sporting rifles. Basicaly
take your high quality and have a good gunsmith work it over to tighten
the tolerances by a mm *here* and adjust the stock a little *here* so that
the end product is more accurate and suited for *your* shooting style.
probably use the customized rules on the sporting rifle though you might
want to make the players role play out finding and convincing the gunsmith
to do the work for them.

Blending into the top of the rebuild rifles are the custom built rifles.
You might start with a heavy match grade barrel from company X, a reciever
from Y, a sight from Z, a custome molded kevlar stock (kevlar is chemicaly
and thermaly inert so it does not warp with time, heat, or humidity and at
this level every little bit counts), a custome molded buttplate, a bipod
by W, ect. Costs can start around 1,500 for parts alone and gunsmiths of
the caliber needed will probably not be cheep at all. For example the
USMC's M40A1 sniper rifle would fall into this catagory and it is listed
as having a "Unit Replacement Cost: $2,105" wich i really doubt includes
the pay of the "Specially trained armorers at Quantico, Virginia." Oh
and it is listed as having a "Maximum effective range: 1000 yards (914
meters)"

Then there is the type of weapon I think your player really means when
they say sniper rifles. The various large caliber anti-material weapons
usualy based on the .50 caliber machinegun round. These things should be
a LOT more hard to find, a lot more powerfull, probably illegal, and are
BIG to boot. The M82A1A .50 Caliber Special Application Scoped Rifle used
by the US military is such a weapon coming in at a "Length: 57 inches
(144.78 centimeters)" and with a "Weight: 32.5 pounds (14.75 kilograms)
(unloaded)". It is listed as having a base "Unit Replacement Cost: $6,000"
and im sure the armorers at Quantico work them over once the government
buys them from the manufacturer. It is listed as having a "Maximum
effective range on equipment-sized targets: 1800 meters" wich means it
can seriously damage equiptment such as a truck or radar set at a range of
over a mile.

Of course to truely get the benefits of most of these weapons you have to
be out on the firing range on a regular basis to keep the skills up. All
this practice firing puts wear on the gun and you will have to have it
worked over by a skilled gunsmith on a regular basis (every few months,
once a year, depending on how much you fire it and how customized your
rifle is)

all quotes are taken directly from the USMC FactFile located at
http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.nsf/AVE?openview&count000

This is all based on the many books i have read as an armchair military
enthusiast with a liking for long range, accurate firepower. Now if i can
only get out of school and get a real job so i could get back into
shooting. I miss the rifle range at summer camp i went to every year as a
kid.

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 6
From: Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:32:26 -0700
> > I have now been approached by my players several times requesting that
> > I ease up on them and "just let them kill things." I ask the list, I
> > am being a bad GM?
>
> They can "just kill things", as long as they see and understand the results
> of their actions. I'm guessing that that's the way you're running things,
> instead of just saying "no, your character can't do that because Lone Star
> would just run you down. Your character knows better".
>

Maybe two years ago in Los Angeles a group of prospective bank robbers
showed up with bullet proof vests, automatic rifles, and all the gear
you ever hope to have. When the police got there the thugs pinned them
down with ease, and were generally immune to police firepower. But in
due time a swat team got there and let me tell you those thugs went down
hard.

You may have more firepower than a beat cop. But they've got backup. Do
you?

> The availability rules should be enough to cover this, but if they still
> want to whine, let them. Make sure everyone understands the consistancy of
> the rules you follow, and why you're not letting the CHARACTER have the
> item. You're not trying to be against the PLAYER, but to make the world
> follow a rational set of rules.

there are some character types who would rationally start with certain
items. For instance if I build a hitman/sniper it will logically have a
sniper rifle. But a regular street tough is not going to have this.
Conversely the sniper shouldn't have lots of obvious combat gear. It's
trade is getting to a secluded spot unnoticed and waiting till that
moment to do the deed.
That's how I make my calls when I GM. I look at the character concept
and judge what fits based on it.

> Just make sure you aren't using a heavy hand and saying "no, that's not what
> happens". Say "if you do, this is what will happen". Then explain why
you
> don't want to run that kind of game. If they persist, run it for them, and
> once the military rolls out to take them down, they'll understand what
> they've done to the game.

For every action there is a reaction. Choose your actions wisely.

If a player disagrees with one of my calls; they have to explain why I
was out of genre to make me change it.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 7
From: anakin <anakin@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:14:58 +0000
Zebulin Magby wrote:

> I have now been approached by my players several times requesting that
> I ease up on them and "just let them kill things." I ask the list, I
> am being a bad GM?

Greetings,
I could not resiste answering to this one. My
regular group (who play in a different system not SR) has several players
like this and I regularly experience the "BUT I COULD EASILY HACH THE
HEADS OF FOUR FO THOSE REALLY LARGE DRAGONS AND ..........." needless to
say I have to deal with several power players, the answer I use is I let
'em. For several games I allow them to play the way they want allowing
them to do as they please and trample the opposition, then I hit em from
the direction they are not looking.

eg (off SR topic) In a AD&D campaign I had a knight who thought he
was really hot and could beat anything, he regularly bullied people and
hacked nasty creatures into tiny little pieces. What I did to him was turn
on of his squires into a daemon (possession) and left him to clean up the
mess, It looked completely like someone he was training had gone psycho
and started killing people.....

to get back to SR and show what I would think of doing to your
players. OK superplayer group jumps into their ex-military issue tank
packs up all their heavy artilllery and goes downtown laying into
everything because someone cancelled their favourite trid show (I know it
is a little over the top but hey). Now they go downtoen blow up a mall or
two and head off home, the star was completely helpless or did not get
their SWAT team in place in time. Now here come the vengeful GM, because
the Star could not catch them the first time they start increasing
patrols, street cops are now more heavily armed and armoured to deal with
the local psycho's. Because of this crackdown the local MAFIA, YAKUZA,
SEOLPA RINGS and TRIADS are unable to operate effectively and start to get
slightly miffed about what the party has done to them. While the Star
bumbles around unable to find the party hit squads start arriving and
attacking the party from the abovementioned groups, or even better as
warnings various valued contacts of the party are killed as warnings to
not annoy the star and thus annoy the local crime boss.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE, IF YOUR PARTY IS
REALLY STRONG IN FIRE POWER SUBTLY FORCE THEM TO OPERATE IN A SITUATION IN
WHICH THEY CANNOT USE IT. They cannot attack directly someone who is
killing off their contacts and may actually have to make a deal to not go
downtown and blow everything up.

ANY THOUGTS????


--
Don't just do something- Stand There

All Pigs fed and ready to fly

Each day is better than the next!

ICQ# 12697398
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:03:56 +0200
According to Zebulin Magby, at 16:19 on 10 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Anyway, this leads to a "discussion" that our local
> <cough>powergamer</cough> says he doesn't figure it's fair that he
> can't start the game with a sniper rifle and heavy armor. He says that
> his character (like all his characters) had been in the military for
> long enough time and that he should be able to get a sniper rifle with
> no problems. (Hell, he said he could get one today inside of a few
> days.)

Let him prove it :)

> Why wouldn't I let him start with one, he asks?
>
> My answer was based on the limited availability rules within SR2 (or
> was it the Companion?) that won't allow anything with an availability
> above 8(?)

6 in the Companion, 8 in SR3, but that's not really important right now.

> and even with the Merc Contact that puts it at 10. A sniper
> rifle is a 12 or 14, so I said no. (Not needing to say that every one
> of his characters to date has wanted a sniper rifle.)

That last bit is a good enough reason to try and make him _not_ carry a
sniper rifle with this character. I have a player who exhibits much the
same behavior, so I can sympathize with you; my solution has been to try
and force him to play another kind of character by attempting to deny him
a lot of the toys he sort of takes for granted. He's learning, but to tell
the truth it's going very slow... I hope you have more luck :)

> I mean, these are players who complain when I come down on them too
> harshly for taking them out after they take out some Lonestar cops. They
> complain cause the cops are after them?!? What'd they expect?

<stating the obvious>To get away without a scratch, apparently.</stating
the obvious>

I think this is related to the thread last week about GMs not using the
police to its full potential, but more about that below.

> And they also complain when I mention that carrying heavy weapons
> downtown isn't a Good Idea (tm). I subtly remind them that Lonestar
> frowns upon that kind of activity, and all they do is try to tell me
> that they can take Lonestar out if that happens. It's true, too. (And
> before you tell me that the HTR teams can take out anything, let me
> assure you that they can, but after a couple of games played that way,
> the players just don't want to play anymore cause the game suddenly
> isn't fun.)

Yes, it isn't fun. However, if the players complain about that, I suggest
you do use this tactic, and let your players know they're the ones
responsible for the lack of fun -- if they don't carry heavy weapons
around, they can more or less go where they please without having to
bother about Lone Star.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Warning! Choking hazard -- small letters.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:21:21 -0700
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input on this topic. I have
decided to have another talk with my players about what they think
Shadowrun is, and what they want out of the game. (I already know one
player is going to say, "So we can kill things." And yes, I have
suggested AD&D to him.) Once I get a serious response from them, I
will see what I can do on my end to bring them a game which
encompasses that view...but I don't think that it will be enough. But
before I become disillusioned (lack of players makes my course of
action rather, um, unexciting) I will see what we can work out. Thanks
again everybody!

Zebulin
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 10
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:16:05 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-11 05:17:28 EDT, you write:

<< YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE, IF YOUR PARTY IS
REALLY STRONG IN FIRE POWER SUBTLY FORCE THEM TO OPERATE IN A SITUATION IN
WHICH THEY CANNOT USE IT. They cannot attack directly someone who is
killing off their contacts and may actually have to make a deal to not go
downtown and blow everything up.

ANY THOUGTS???? >>

MOre than just that.... Use the contact rules about hung out to dry... Once
the word gets out that its not healthy to be a known associate of these guys,
their contacts will drop them like a hot potato. this means that unless
Johnsons know how to get to them direct jobs will dry up into nothing. NOt to
mention being unable to find a fence, get anything fixed... Or even find a
street doc willing to plug those bullet holes. With all hands in the shadows
turned against them, they wont be living very long unless they change their
ways real fast and do a LOT of sucking up to certain people....
Message no. 11
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:15:59 -0500
A
>MOre than just that.... Use the contact rules about hung out to dry... Once
>the word gets out that its not healthy to be a known associate of these guys,
>their contacts will drop them like a hot potato. this means that unless
>Johnsons know how to get to them direct jobs will dry up into nothing.
NOt to
>mention being unable to find a fence, get anything fixed... Or even find a
>street doc willing to plug those bullet holes. With all hands in the shadows
>turned against them, they wont be living very long unless they change their
>ways real fast and do a LOT of sucking up to certain people....
>


Well, from a GM point of view, it is one hell of a way to get players on
certain adventures they would never do normally.

"Well, lets see what jobs are open today..." checking the pocket
secretary.
"We've lost the Alex account, along with Johnson 1, 2, 3, and 4." The
phone rings....
"Ya-ello. Seattle Gas and electricity eh? We owe how much? you want it
when?? Or you'll do what!!! Ya, you too buddy." Click! "What else is
there?"
"Hey, Mike!" The street sam walks in. "You ain't gonna like this,
but
the Rigger's super Bison is low on gas, still shot up from our last run,
we're running low on ammo, rent is due, and we're out of milk!"
"No milk!"
Just then, the dark phone no one ever answers begins to ring. This is the
phone that gave the mission where Hanson bought it, The mission where the
mage still has nightmares. Sweaty palms answer the cold receiver.......


Now we all know there are certain adventures/missions players just will
not do. There's that one idea the Gm is just itching to unfold that the
players run from like a red-headed step child. Granted, its a crappy way
of doing things, but if players do their jobs right, they can get contacts
later by playing. Besides, what good are contacts and supporting
characters if nothing ever happenes to them...

Ron
#include disclamer.h
Message no. 12
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:31:16 EDT
In a message dated 10/11/1998 2:16:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rclark@****.NET writes:

> Well, from a GM point of view, it is one hell of a way to get
> players on certain adventures they would never do normally.
>
> "Well, lets see what jobs are open today..." checking the pocket
> secretary.
> "We've lost the Alex account, along with Johnson 1, 2, 3, and 4."
> The phone rings.... "Ya-ello. Seattle Gas and electricity eh? We owe how
much? you want it when?? Or you'll do what!!! Ya, you too buddy." Click!
"What else is
> there?"
> "Hey, Mike!" The street sam walks in. "You ain't gonna like
this,
> but the Rigger's super Bison is low on gas, still shot up from our last run,
> we're running low on ammo, rent is due, and we're out of milk!"
> "No milk!"
> Just then, the dark phone no one ever answers begins to ring. This
> is the
> phone that gave the mission where Hanson bought it, The mission where the
> mage still has nightmares. Sweaty palms answer the cold receiver.......

"Yes, I have a job for you." says an obviously analoged transformed voice
"You're mission, should you accept it, is to find this trog" <insert image of
troll in pink slippers, copy of a good book, a cow in a walk in freezer behind
him, and a Large(TM) glass of frosty-cold milk in his hand> "Should you
capture this man and retrieve the cow, a recent milk production experiment
from the Yamatetsu Bovine R&D division, in tact, your lifetime supply of
Milk(TM) will be answered."

The voice awaits the response....

-K (who couldn't pass this up ;)
Message no. 13
From: Bill ChewStriker <bill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:04:49 -0400
I'd suggest letting them do as they want but with consequences. If they
walk around downtown with heavy weapons lone star pulls em over and they
blast them.
Well then they'll bring in the heavy military units. First time just use em
to scare but if they keep it up they'll get killed. But do allow them to
get more powerful after playing a while. Don't be too picky about everyone
staying low power. Just my thoughts on the situation I usually like
powerful games but only after the character's have been around for a while
and earned they're power.
---Myth-Chip/Striker/Bill
Message no. 14
From: David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:32:59 EDT
I've been running an SR3 campaign since the game came out. I know I must be
doing some think right since my players have never killed a cop.
Message no. 15
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:51:32 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:32 AM 10/11/98 -0700, Rook wrote:
> Maybe two years ago in Los Angeles a group of prospective
bank robbers
>showed up with bullet proof vests, automatic rifles, and all the gear
>you ever hope to have. When the police got there the thugs pinned
them
>down with ease, and were generally immune to police firepower. But in
>due time a swat team got there and let me tell you those thugs went
down
>hard.

I remember that one, that particular confrontation set an LAPD record
for "most shots fired in the aprehension of a suspect". Actually, if I
remember the story right, even the LAPD SWAT team had trouble with
those particular bank robbers, until one of the cops thought to run
down the street to the local gun shop and "borrow" some really heavy
firepower (though I can't remember exactly what it was they borrowed).

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 16
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:32:04 -0500
On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:51:32 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 01:32 AM 10/11/98 -0700, Rook wrote:
>> Maybe two years ago in Los Angeles a group of prospective bank
robbers
>>showed up with bullet proof vests, automatic rifles, and all the gear
>>you ever hope to have. When the police got there the thugs pinned them
>>down with ease, and were generally immune to police firepower. But in
>>due time a swat team got there and let me tell you those thugs went
down
>>hard.

>I remember that one, that particular confrontation set an LAPD record
>for "most shots fired in the aprehension of a suspect". Actually, if I
>remember the story right, even the LAPD SWAT team had trouble with
>those particular bank robbers, until one of the cops thought to run
>down the street to the local gun shop and "borrow" some really heavy
>firepower (though I can't remember exactly what it was they borrowed).

Oh that must of been funny...
Cop: "I need to borrow some guns for the firefight down the street."
Gun Store Owner: "There's a 5 day waiting period on that ..."

Hell, just the thought that a gun shop is better equiped than the SWAT
team is kinda funny ... well, sad/pathetic is more likely ...

Then again, part of the problem was the bank robbers, IIRC, were outdoors
and so they couldn't use any sort of gas ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:52:07 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:32 PM 10/11/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>I remember that one, that particular confrontation set an LAPD
record
>>for "most shots fired in the aprehension of a suspect". Actually, if
I
>>remember the story right, even the LAPD SWAT team had trouble with
>>those particular bank robbers, until one of the cops thought to run
>>down the street to the local gun shop and "borrow" some really heavy
>>firepower (though I can't remember exactly what it was they
borrowed).
>
>Oh that must of been funny...
>Cop: "I need to borrow some guns for the firefight down the street."
>Gun Store Owner: "There's a 5 day waiting period on that ..."
>
>Hell, just the thought that a gun shop is better equiped than the
SWAT
>team is kinda funny ... well, sad/pathetic is more likely ...

Actually, I looked into this, and it turns out that it was the regular
patrol officers who borrowed the heavier firepower, to just be able to
hold their own in the firefight until the SWAT team arrived.

- From CNN's website:
(http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/28/shootout.update/index.html)

>Officers who initially responded to Friday's robbery, carrying
>standard-issue 9 millimeter Baretta handguns, were in trouble.
>
>"Tactically, the first officers that arrived were at a severe
>disadvantage," weapons expert and former LAPD officer Dave Butler
>said. "Police carry 15 rounds. They would need to re-load."
>
>Stunned officers were out-gunned to such a degree that at one point
>they burst into a gun store, and walked out with more powerful guns
>and ammunition.
>
>Police "came in a panic because their weapons weren't good enough to
>fight these people," said the store's president, who would identify
>himself only as Bob.
>
>"These people had body armor and they needed something that would
>break body armor," he said. "We supplied them with slugs that would
at
>least break bones on someone wearing body armor."

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:28:22 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, K in the Shadows wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 10/10/1998 6:21:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ zebulingod@*****.COM writes:
/
/ >
/ > So, my point (didn't think I had one, did you?) is this: Are my
/ > players bad players or am I a bad GM? What do y'all think? Go ahead
/ > and ask me anything you think you need to know, but remember that I
/ > get the digest so can't respond right away unless you reply to me
/ > directly. I really appreciate any input this list can give me, thanks!
/
/ I would have to say that you and your group are merely going through a growing
/ phase of comprehension and understanding between each other.

[snip]

/ Your group wants something and you disagree. Discuss it with them again if
/ you have too. Take a break from gaming (or just that game) if you need to.

I'll add my two cents. My group recognizes that everyone once in
awhile we just need to open up the can of wupass. To this end we
established a shared, high powered, AD&D universe. Whenever we feel
the need, one of us will GM AD&D and we get it out of our system :)

Or, if we want to do the same thing in another game, one of us will put
together a one-shot adventure and the rest of us will create and play
one-shot characters. These can be a *lot* of fun.

Anyway, once it's out of our system then we can get back to playing the
more realistic games.

/ ...ask them (the other players)
/ if any of them feel like they are ready to GM *them* for a while. Flip the
/ tables and see how they appreciate the entirety of the game, including each
/ individual's contribution.

And then make the same character (sniper rifle, heavy armor, etc) so
they can see how hard it is to deal with it :)

FYI, this tactic might not solve the issue with the (munchkin)
powergamer. My group once had a munchkin in it and when he GMed he had
his own pet NPC/PC that went on his own adventures in between games,
increasing his power and getting all kinds of nifty toys. Looking back
on it it was really kind of sad. But if nothing else it's a good
turing test to see if someone is a munchkin. ;)

/ As I said, it's a growing period. Stretch now, I'm tellin' ya ;)

Ditto :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 19
From: "Brian F. Wong" <rook@****.RAD-INET.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:25:54 -0700
> / ...ask them (the other players)
> / if any of them feel like they are ready to GM *them* for a while. Flip the
> / tables and see how they appreciate the entirety of the game, including each
> / individual's contribution.
>
> And then make the same character (sniper rifle, heavy armor, etc) so
> they can see how hard it is to deal with it :)
>
> FYI, this tactic might not solve the issue with the (munchkin)
> powergamer. My group once had a munchkin in it and when he GMed he had
> his own pet NPC/PC that went on his own adventures in between games,
> increasing his power and getting all kinds of nifty toys. Looking back
> on it it was really kind of sad. But if nothing else it's a good
> turing test to see if someone is a munchkin. ;)

True. We turned over GMing to our powergamer and he just made
ultra munchkin NPC's and slapped the group around for a couple weeks.

The only way to cure these people is for them to want to be cured and
to do it themselves. If you have a whole group of them it's near hopeless. If
you only have one or two you can change them by example if you build plots that
are so fun to the non munchkins that the munchkin sees them having a blast and
tries to emulate it. Occaisionally that can convert a powergamer over to a
plotfiend (one extreme for another).
Ussually a power gamer, munchkin, and plot fiend all come from the
same reasons. As a player they want what they do to matter. And they don't
want to be stuck in hopeless gaming where their goals are never met. So they
pick a style and over compensate. Munchkins are common in older games that
have strong elements of action as that seems the best way to 'be signifigant'.
If you're running something like Amber, Theatrix, or Everway however you'll
find plot fiends where you would have had munchkins. More oft than not.

The best way to deal with them is to balance out the importance of
various elements of the game and hope they change by seeing the example of
others. Someone who'se characters and actions are so focused will find
in a balanced game that they have much less options; given time (lots of it
unfortunately) they will adapt or leave.

Of course with a whole group of them they will feed off each other and
the person who is more balanced in approach will be the one forced to adapt.

--
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ADDRESS. This is an emergency outbox only, I check the
mail here once every 2-3 months.
Send replies to: rook@*******.com
Message no. 20
From: Mike Elkins <Mike_Elkins@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:59:45 -0400
For players who want to kill lots of "things", you can't beat a bug hunt.
They work best when you go subtle and gradually build the horror, but hey,
with your players, forget subtle. Even if Chicago is already history in
your game, imagine the following adventure: Players are shipwrecked
somewhere remote and exotic, perhaps in the Bermuda Triangle, perhaps near
Madigascar. There are signs that the Island used to be inhabited, maybe 10
years ago, but doesn't seem to be now. In the first 1/2 hour of
exploration, have them find the biggest monte haul cache of goodies you
can imagine: missiles, PACs, gyromounts, whatever. Then have them get to
the interior of the island, which is where the people now are, except they
aren't people anymore, they are bugs, and they are trying to build vehicles
to allow them to collonize the neighboring islands... or using magic to
get ships, boats or planes to land/crash on the island so they can use
them.

Double-Domed Mike
P.S. If you are feeling really cruel, as the handful of survivors are
being dragged into the hive to be incubated, have them hear sounds of
massive firepower outside. As the cocoons are being sealed, a dozen
heavily armored UCAS Marines/Knight Errant Elite troops burst into the
room, shoot all visible bugs and a sergeant says "Hey, Leiutenant, looks
like survivors!" to which the Leuitenant says "The've already been
incubated, Soldier. They're just bugs who look human. Shoot them all."
End of game...
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Players, LONESTAR, heavy weapons downtown,
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:10:40 -0400
At 01:32 AM 10/11/98 -0700, you wrote:

> Maybe two years ago in Los Angeles a group of prospective bank
robbers
>showed up with bullet proof vests, automatic rifles, and all the gear
>you ever hope to have. When the police got there the thugs pinned them
>down with ease, and were generally immune to police firepower. But in
>due time a swat team got there and let me tell you those thugs went down
>hard.
>
>You may have more firepower than a beat cop. But they've got backup. Do you?

Um, not quite...

Yes, they were well armed and armored. The LAPD, for the most part, was not.

Those two thugs, if they had any brains at all, could have killed dozens of
cops. But instead they simply "prayed and sprayed" with their ARs. They
also made a whole host of critical tactical errors during the entire
situation.

It was their *STUPIDITY* that got them killed, not the S.W.A.T. teams. In
fact, I don't recall that it was SWAT officers that killed them, it was
normal beat cops.

Even my LAPD buddy (who was an Academy cadet at the time) freely admits
that if those two guys had any sense, any brains, or any training with a
firearm, they would have killed dozens of cops. As it was, I think about a
dozen folks were injured.

So it wasn't SWAT that did the job, the thugs pretty much killed themselves
with their moronic actions from the very start to the gruesome end.

Footnote: their was some controversy (a little anyway) that one of the
perps was still alive when apprehended and if medical assistance had been
rendered right off the bat (instead of putting their boots on his neck for
over an hour) he would have lived. Personally, I think he could have been
kept alive and *should* have been, but I can understand the psyche of the
on-scene officers and might have done the same thing myself.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

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